Manston

[lotus1]

Rumours going around manston airport may be opening .Riveroak partners have bought the airport .Big breaking news article in Kentonline and on BBC south east news tonight ?

[sinbad73]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-48856921

[DaveReidUK]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-48856921

"RiverOak predicts that from 2024, 680,000 passengers will fly from Manston each year, along with 174,000 tonnes of cargo."

I'd be fascinated to see the figures behind those forecasts.

[Planespeaking]

"RiverOak predicts that from 2024, 680,000 passengers will fly from Manston each year, along with 174,000 tonnes of cargo."

I'd be fascinated to see the figures behind those forecasts.

It's deja-vu all over again!!

[diffident]

"RiverOak predicts that from 2024, 680,000 passengers will fly from Manston each year, along with 174,000 tonnes of cargo."

I'd be fascinated to see the figures behind those forecasts.

It's not just the case of how they conjured up the numbers for the forecasts... it will take some serious redevelopment to have the facilities capable of that.

I'm all for the development of air travel in this country, and this is exactly what should be done with sites like Manston.

Along with the figures for the forecasts DaveReidUK would like to see, I'd like to see some form of masterplan (be it a 10 yr, 25 yr or even 50 yr), complete with proposed transport links to and from the airfield etc, before I get enthusiastic about the idea.

[davidjohnson6]

It's taken Southend a long time to gain traction, and that's with a decent local population density and its own railway station. Southend for now is still largely feeding off the crumbs that the bigger airports are leaving. Flybe are unlikely to be interested in their future shape; maybe Loganair might take a look and KLM could possibly decide to have another go - otherwise I'm struggling to think of passenger airlines that would look seriously at Manston. Maybe Manston might be better suited to cargo instead but with water on 3 sides, poor road connectivity doesn't encourage freight companies

It'll be a long long time before there is demand at Manston for commercial flights from real airlines that pay non-negative airport fees carrying 500k pax during a year. Maybe it'll happen, but not by 2024

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.aircargonews.net/cargo-airport/riveroak-moves-in-on-manston-cargo-hub-plans-with-site-acquisition/

[pamann]

KLM may well make a reappearance.

Think Ryanair are the only other airline likely to show an interest.

[Hotel Tango]

I can't see sufficient passenger potential unless there is a high speed rail connection to London.

[EGPO]

How far off of the ' Javelin Train ' routes is Mamston anyway, I know they can run on classic lines being the basically same train well 90% as an IEP (as told to me by A train driver in the know ) who had actually had the chance at driving both the Javelin and it's twin the IEP, plus the Scottish 385, anyway I raise that as that is a fast reliable train service that then runs into the HS1 into central London .

So first off how far is it to a ' Southern rail ' operated station from the Airport?, Is it like DSA, where it's not to distant to the ECML and thus the possibility of a rail link and freight , so could this idea work for manston ?.not being familiar with the area , and only visited the airport once , that was August 91 our Britannia 737 had a low fuel emergency and the pilot had to land at manston , after s long wait we continued onto LBA but back then it looked very quiet and you could see grass growing through the concrete taxiway and Apron.

So after not being in use for how many years now,? How viable is it as I'm sure they'd have to sort out a major refurb for pax flights .
As people have said it might attract KLM and Ryanair, but it's not much good without a decent rail link .
I could see it getting Loganair , but then with Southend having a fantastic rail link , plus the new faster trains coming onstream, if the idea of Manston is to alleviate pressure from Gatwick and maybe Heathrow , it seems it's going to need miracle .

Southend got lucky as they got easyJet , hence the very rapid growth and extra terminal.

Surely though there are old RAF or current RAF like Northolt , why is that not being looked at , and again with a direct rail spur off the new ' Crossrail or GWR ' to it , they could do away with that third runway at Heathrow, if the site was developed and Runwsy extended , new taxiways , Terminal etc .

Perhaps domestic flights could be moved there , freeing valuable slots . It just seems crazy to open manston stuck so far out .
When you have Southend as an alternative and noone can argue that it's not doing well.

But the third runway is going to add to conjestion still in terms of stacking aircraft for LHR . Hence my question about the viability of a redeveloped Northolt Vs this Manston idea .

[ReadyToGo]

Ramsgate station is probably the closest, around 10mins by taxi? Thats on the line to London.

Geographically Manston is always going to struggle. If you go East, South or North, theres very little catchment area except water. The further West you go, the closer you get to Gatwick and Stansted. You've also got fast rail links from Ashford to Brussels, Amsterdam and Paris to contend with.

So who is going to fly passengers there other than those mentioned? Stobart maybe? Eastern?

All I can think of here is that there is already some cargo comapny involved who will put a lot money into this for a small hub. I dont know what state the terminal is in, or if any of the lighting, nav or ATC stuff is there and working, or even a fire station but the investment needed would be absolutely huge. Thats before you start thinking about taxiways and runway surface.

[onion]

Could the Swanscombe Peninsula development be tied to this. Announcements made on the same day!
I know there is a fair distance between the two but are the developers aiming for traffic for the resort?

[Asturias56]

Where is the Doctor?

Like Dracula he must be rising from his tomb as we speak....................... :eek:

[Asturias56]

Ahh - just a change of name plate...................... still River Oak peddling a fantasy and praying they don't get permission for anything other than houses,
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After an announcement on 6 May 2014,[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-closure-7) the airport closed on 15 May 2014 with the loss of 144 jobs.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-8) When closure was announced, campaign group Save Manston Airport was formed by a local campaigner, along with other groups such as Supporters of Manston Airport, Manston Works and Save Manston Airport Association, as well as the existing Why Not Manston? group. The groups petitioned the local council, Thanet District Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanet_District_Council), to issue a compulsory purchase order (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_purchase_order) (CPO) to save the airport, in conjunction with a private indemnity partner. A US-based investment group, RiverOak (RSP), put forward a plan to re-open the airport, with an initial emphasis on cargo and aircraft recycling operations[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-9) but the council refused, after Riveroak had failed to supply the information it required, including financial status.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-refusal-10) Riveroak now[when? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Chronological_items)] plans to attempt the same[clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)] using a development consent order (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Development_consent_order&action=edit&redlink=1) (DCO).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-11) The proposed development was temporarily renamed Stone Hill Park.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-12)

On 2 February 2015, Manston Airport was discussed in a Commons Select Committee evidence session as part of its Smaller Airports Inquiry.[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-13) The committee's report was published on 9 March 2015.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-14)

In January 2016, Thanet District Council announced a new soft market-testing process to find indemnity partners for the compulsory acquisition of the former airport.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-15) The next month, the council announced that a total of five expressions of interest had been received, and after responses were received to a follow-up questionnaire, three were carried forward to the next stage of the CPO process.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-16)

In the later part of 2018, Manston Airport became part of Operation Stack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Stack), and will be used as a queuing point for lorries using the Port of Dover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Dover) in the event the stretch of the M20 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M20_motorway) between Junctions 8 and 11 reaches overcapacity.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport#cite_note-17)

On 3 July 2019 RSP informed the Planning Inspectorate that they had exchanged contracts with SHP for the purchase of the site, with completion of

[Michael S]

Kent population is over 1,5 mln plus you have also part of East Sussex as well. Being stuck between waters and corked by London, getting to any airport is a nightmare at times. Having an airport where I could go away from London, not towards it, would be a blessing.
Plus with brexit looming and seaports congestions expected Manston has a briliant position for a cargo hub.

[felixflyer]

Kent's population is growing massively. There is a lot of migration from London out to the east and construction of a few large new towns in the pipeline.

For the people in Kent Gatwick or city airport are the best options at the moment. Gatwick involves the M25 and anything can happen. Southend or Stansted means crossing the bridge so forget it.

For the freight side of things post Brexit there my be a demand for more international freight coming in direct so I don't see why this can't work. The airport is right next to the M2 and the rail link via Canterbury and Ashford onto HS1 as per the existing Ramsgate train is viable. Especially if done at night when the passenger services aren't running. There is also a ready made harbour right next door which could easily feed the incoming international frieght into the EU.

The only spanner I see is the new Lower Thames Crossing which will bring Southend into play for Kent.

The project is viable so long as investment in the transport links is forthcoming. Post Brexit I would hope that would be the case with these kinds of projects. Even as an HS2 supporter I would gladly see the project put on hold in order to prioritise the construction of international trade infrastructure short term. Unfortunately at the moment the UK seems obsessed with causing chaos building 'smart' motorways that nobody wants.

One thing Manston has going for it is big support from the locals. That is rare these days in terms of airports and while there are a few Nimby's it is generally regarded as an asset to the county. Post Brexit we are likely to see an abundance of land go up for sale and Manstons value as an airport will possibly be more than as housing.

[Asturias56]

This thread (or variants of it) has been running since before 2007 - and the arguments and the players are still the same

Manston is in the wrong place and has poor transport links (and no-one is going to pay to upgrade them) - it's like Shannon - useful many many years ago when range was an issue but now???

The owners can see a fortune awaiting if they can get the place turned it houses etc - for a small investment in putting in planning applications they can eventually "prove" there is no alternative

I hope to God we're not still arguing about this in 2031..................

[Paradism]

Don't get carried away by the large annual figures quoted i.e.680,000 pax and 170,000 tons of freight. On a daily basis that only amounts to 1863 pax and 466 tons of freight. Not sure how many 747 loads that equates to? 100 tons per load, sounds eminently achievable. Also I recall that from CAA statistics, EUJet were achieving in excess of 1000 pax per day before the plug was pulled on them.

Time will tell so no point in speculating until:

a. Planning go-ahead is given, and :

b. RSP make their detailed plans known.

[sinbad73]

What happened to Manston being used as a lorry park during/after all the Brexit chaos? Or will all of that be finished by the time this airport re-opens?

[DaveReidUK]

What happened to Manston being used as a lorry park during/after all the Brexit chaos? Or will all of that be finished by the time this airport re-opens?

Mentioned in the link in post #2 (yours, in fact!):

Earlier this year the site was tested as a potential lorry park to be used in the event of post-Brexit congestion at the cross-Channel ports.

Mr Freudmann confirmed the company would honour the current agreement Stone Hill Park had with the Department for Transport for the use of the site.

[LTNman]

I have a friend who tried to convince me that last month he witnessed a cargo flight at Manston. I told him the airport was shut but he was having none of it and said he saw what he saw.

[Andy_S]

The problem I see with Manston as a passenger airport is that it's too far from London to be marketed as a 'London' airport but close enough that London airports are easily accessible to the population of Kent.

As for being a cargo hub in a Brexit era, not every type of cargo is suitable for air transport.

I wish them well, but my suspicion is that after a year or two the new owners will declare the place unviable for aviation use and try and develop it in different ways......

[tophat27dt]

I have a friend who tried to convince me that last month he witnessed a cargo flight at Manston. I told him the airport was shut but he was having none of it and said he saw what he saw.
He probably saw one of the old cargo planes that are still stored/stranded there, or at least there used to be!

[Out Of Trim]

Maybe, Thanet Flying Club will be able to return! :cool:

[Asturias56]

"I wish them well, but my suspicion is that after a year or two the new owners will declare the place unviable for aviation use and try and develop it in different ways.."

Most of the cynics on here believe they made that decision years ago and keep the place in their land bank - every so often they talk about reopening but they know that in the long term the Council will fold and it'll be houses as far as the eye can see....... it's worth hundreds of millions IN CASh once it's developed

[VickersVicount]

:) Manston to Carlisle?

[Hotel Tango]

Manston to Carlisle?

With a Vickers Viscount of course!

[Planespeaking]

No an Invicta Vanguard!

[flying phil 2007]

The saga continues..
I was on the fast train from Stratford International to Ramsgate yesterday.. takes about 1 hour 20 minutes.. so with a bus link to the airport I suppose it is feasible to attract the Low Cost crowd.. train also stops at Ebbsfleet, Ashford and others..
Manston’s runway is long enough and wide enough for 747’s so maybe there is a possibility of it becoming a cargo hub like Leige, but cargo hubs are busiest at night and they are ruling out night flights??
I think they have seen how Southend is busy with EasyJet, Ryanair, Flybe, etc... Southend has the advantage of a railway station at the airport, but has a short runway and not much room to expand.
In the past Manston ran coaches from Bluewater shopping centre to the airport, also the KLM flight to Amsterdam did well..
Will be interesting to watch developments

[ExpectmorePayless]

In addition to encouraging regular passenger and cargo operators to use Manston as a destination, it would be useful to consider the use of Manston as a primary diversion airport for the extremely busy and slot constrained London area.
The temporary closure of any of the big 4 London airports puts a significant strain on the remaining resources. The CAA already stipulate Heathrow should not be nominated as a diversion airport for the London area, as it is already at capacity. Gatwick is the second busiest single runway airport in the world and regularly has flow rates imposed to limit traffic flows at peak times of the day. Luton has limited apron capacity at certain times of the day, leaving only Stansted to cope with diversions. Stansted is already very busy with base operators and so cannot handle multiple diversions for long periods.

It would require a national infrastructure policy and a suitable mechanism for funding, but nominating London Manston as a primary diversion airport would have a number of positive benefits:
1. Making Manston the primary diversionary airport for any aircraft with a hijack situation (hopefully relatively rare events nowadays) would allow the high levels of traffic using Stansted to continue uninterrupted. Manston is remote enough to allow the appropriate security services to deal with terrorist incidents away from the major hubs and with minimum disruption to surrounding communities. Kent Police would have to take over any existing activities performed by Essex Police.
2. Airlines using other London airports would be able to nominate London Manston as primary H24 diversionary airport and thereby plan fuel reserves with minimum track miles and eliminate the necessity for holding, thereby reducing required fuel reserves. Terminal facilities and onward ground transport would have to be sufficient for diverted flights. It would provide an environmental benefit from the need to carry and burn less fuel.
3. Aircraft reporting significant or high risk technical emergencies (blown tyre on take-off, undercarriage fault) would be able to divert and avoid blocking the main runways at the other 5 London hub airports. Thereby avoiding any extensive period of closure at the busier airports. Sufficient shared engineering support and ground handling support could be allocated to London Manston in order to clear the runway and move the aircraft to a suitable area for repair. The only downside would be the number of occasions when it would have been preferable to land at the home base airport where the technical fault was not significant, immediate engineering support was locally available and suitable hangar facilities were available had the aircraft landed at its intended destination.

There could be some innovative solution to funding, whereby those aircraft operators choosing to nominate London Manston as an alternate airport in the Air Traffic Flight Plan would be required to pay a nominal fee to do so. The airport operator would then have a significant revenue stream with virtually every flight to the London airports nominating London Manston as diversion, so the total fees would be sufficient to provide the necessary diversion facilities and make a profitable return to allow further investment in airport facilities. A significant revenue stream for relatively few aircraft movements. But a win-win situation for both airlines and airport operators alike.

[DaveReidUK]

The airport operator would then have a significant revenue stream with virtually every flight to the London airports nominating London Manston as diversion

Can you explain what fees are payable for nominating a diversion airport ?

[ExpectmorePayless]

As far as I am aware, there are currently no fees for nominating a diversion airport in the UK. Airports are open for normal scheduled operations and can accept diversions during these hours subject to capacity.
It was purely a suggestion to fund the operational expense of London Manston (terminal, handling, fire service, ATC and security etc) given there is unlikely to be sufficient revenue from planned aircraft movements alone. A relatively modest flat fee multiplied for most flights to London airports per year should generate a significant amount.
Obviously, if an aircraft did divert and land, it would also pay the more significant landing, parking and handling fees. As would any scheduled movement.

This practise is used in the more remote areas of the world, whereby airport facilities are made available outside of normal operating hours for consideration as ETOPS diversion airports. The airport operator will by prior arrangement extend published operating hours and provide the necessary fire fighting, handling and ATS facilities for a small nominal fee.

In this case, the fee would be an extra cost to the airline but could be offset by the reduction in fuel costs, assuming less distance to divert and elimination of holding requires less fuel to be loaded.

UK airports (such as Durham Tees Valley) often downgrade fire fighting and ATS facilities outside of operating hours for scheduled flight movements. If there is enough demand from airlines to use the airport as a diversion airport outside of operating hours, then it could in certain circumstances generate sufficient additional revenue to extend the hours during which services are provided. Difficult for Durham Tees Valley due to it's location, but probably easier for London Manston being sited near to a major multi-airport hub with 6 London airports supplying traffic.
In 2018, there were 1.1 million aircraft movements to LHR, LGW, STN, LTN, LCY & SEN airports. That's £1.1 million if all flights were charged a £1 fee for using Manston as a primary diversion. £11.8 million if the fee were £10 per flight. Diversion fuel for a flight diverting to Manston from let's say LGW would be less than if it diverted to STN.

[AirportPlanner1]

For all it’s constraints Southend is in a very different place to Manston. People might critique Southend’s location and accessibility but it is within an hour’s journey by road or rail from a sizeable area of London’s administrative boundary. 45 mins to Stratford on a relatively inexpensive and regular train is a somewhat better proposition than 1h20 on a less frequent and quite expensive HS1 service. Southend’s immediate local catchment is wealthier than Manston’s. Therefore because Southend has attracted EZY, FR and others does not mean Manston can replicate that feat.

To meet the forecast pax figure Manston would require 6 daily Ryanair flights - that’s 2-3 based units. If Manston attracted Ryanair to do 3 weekly to Alicante and 2 weekly to Faro and Tenerife (for example) it would be doing incredibly well.

[DaveReidUK]

As far as I am aware, there are currently no fees for nominating a diversion airport in the UK. Airports are open for normal scheduled operations and can accept diversions during these hours subject to capacity.
It was purely a suggestion to fund the operational expense of London Manston (terminal, handling, fire service, ATC and security etc) given there is unlikely to be sufficient revenue from planned aircraft movements alone. A relatively modest flat fee multiplied for most flights to London airports per year should generate a significant amount.

OK, thanks for clarifying that.

Do I hear the sound of straws being clutched at ?

[Asturias56]

"It would require a national infrastructure policy and a suitable mechanism for funding,"

I think you've shot it all down with your opening statement................

[lotus1]

With regards to a cargo plane at manston the other week I beleive there was one at lydd recently it transported a rhino to Egypt I think any idea what type of plane .With regards to passenger flights didn't Eu jet in the end use ATRs on domestic routes said they where more economical

[felixflyer]

For all it’s constraints Southend is in a very different place to Manston. People might critique Southend’s location and accessibility but it is within an hour’s journey by road or rail from a sizeable area of London’s administrative boundary. 45 mins to Stratford on a relatively inexpensive and regular train is a somewhat better proposition than 1h20 on a less frequent and quite expensive HS1 service. Southend’s immediate local catchment is wealthier than Manston’s. Therefore because Southend has attracted EZY, FR and others does not mean Manston can replicate that feat

The train journey is 1h20 because it isn't high speed after Ashford. It would need upgrading to HS in order to cut travel time. Saying that if this was a freight airport and that freight travelled on the railway at night it wouldn't really matter whether it was HS or not. I do think Manston needs to concentrate on freight to make it work. There is no need to limit it to night flights if there is no daytime traffic to worry about but that would go for the other end too. Fedex fly from the USA during the day currently so if they can find enough business after Brexit to make it work then who knows.

[Asturias56]

"There is no need to limit it to night flights"

I suspect the locals and the greens will disagree strongly................... nobody wants night flights from their local airfield

[Andy_S]

Saying that if this was a freight airport and that freight travelled on the railway at night it wouldn't really matter whether it was HS or not.

Trouble is, Manston isn't actually on the railway. You would either need to build a spur from the Canterbury-Ramsgate line (a mile or two I would guess, depending on start / finish point) or build a new rail / road freight interchange on the existing line and truck the freight a short distance to the airport before unloading it again. Perhaps not the most efficient way of doing things.

In any case, is there really a market for rail / air freight transfer? My feeling is that the two modes of transport serve quite different freight markets.

[Paradism]

Latest update on Manston courtesy of the local newspaper. RSP already spent £15M on pursuing the Development Consent Order (DCO) and the purchase of the Jentex Fuel site.

The figure quoted from DCO documents is that £16,5M has been agreed for the purchase of the airport site.

I can't quote a source, but, it is believed that RSP expect to expend £100M on developing the airport. At the time I attended a presentation by RSP, they stated their intention to have 10 aprons capable of taking 747 sized aircraft, before re-opening.

[asdf1234]

Trouble is, Manston isn't actually on the railway. You would either need to build a spur from the Canterbury-Ramsgate line (a mile or two I would guess, depending on start / finish point) or build a new rail / road freight interchange on the existing line and truck the freight a short distance to the airport before unloading it again. Perhaps not the most efficient way of doing things.

In any case, is there really a market for rail / air freight transfer? My feeling is that the two modes of transport serve quite different freight markets.

The County Council were committed to building an airport parkway station back in 2013, funded by S106 contributions from local housing developers if my memory serves me correctly. I think the parkway station was in the County strategic plan.

[Andy_S]

I believe your memory serves you well, but I assume that a Parkway station would be for passenger use.

To handle rail freight in viable quantities, you would need a specialised facility.

[asdf1234]

Yes, it was for pax only. The council was also in talks with Network Rail about improving the track speed between Ramsgate and the HS1 junction at Ashford.

Manston's USP was very short "aircraft landing to truck departing airfield" times. A cargo load could be on the way out of the airfield within 40 minutes of the aircraft touching down. With decent links to the local motorway network and hence London, cargo into Manston could be in the London markets before Heathrow cargo had been processed at the airport. There was never a need therefore for a cargo railroad.

[Andy_S]

I think we're absolutely on the same page. (Perhaps it was a mistake to prolong a discussion about a rail / airport cargo interface which was never really a practical proposition). Smaller point to point cargo deliveries are definitely the way to go, and road is really the only sensible way to do that.

[Paradism]

Isle of Thanet News today reports that the sale of Manston to RSP was completed yesterday 9 July 2019 at 7.30 p.m.

[Asturias56]

"The County Council were committed to building an airport parkway station back in 2013, funded by S106 contributions from local housing developers"

the answer is again in the text - let us build 25000 houses on the airport and we'll be happy to put in a railway station so they can all go and work in London.........................

[asdf1234]

Wrong. It was to support passenger operations at the airport under a new owner.

[Asturias56]

Of course - they were going to pay several million pounds or more (in the USA they reckon $ 1- $ 2 million per mile for a new track) to an airport that has no proven demand.........

Say 1900 Pax a day as per plan. Even a small train takes 200 pax a trip - a Javelin takes 300- 350 a trip. so even if ALL your pax arrive by train that's 6-10 trains a day - one per hour in daylight............... that isn't viable for anyone I'm afraid especially as even airports with good links (NCL for example) only handle 10-20% of pax using the airport

[asdf1234]

The plan was to put in a parkway station at the point where the existing track passed closest to the airport. This was at the junction of the A299 and A256. Shuttle bus then took pax to and from the terminal just as Luton Airport operates now.

As I pointed out in a previous post, the cost would have been passed on to local developers via the S106 mechanism. The airport was a substantial employer and any growth would have added to the employment levels. Both local and county councils were fully onboard with plans to grow the airport.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Anyone advise if there’s anything to see at Manston aircraft wise? Any stored or parked aircraft? Looking to take some pics on a local visit, keen to know if you can even get close enough? Bit of an “aviation history” angle, enjoyed walking the runway at Wisley and interested to see MSE before it’s gone? Thanks.

[Out Of Trim]

I don't believe there are any aircraft left on the airfield. But of course, there are two Museum sites. RAF Manston History Museum based in The old MT yard. And nearby the Spitfire and Hurricane Memorial Museum opposite the former RAF SHQ. Unfortunately, I think still temporarily closed due to Covid19? The only other aircraft were on the Fire Training Ground. Not sure you can gain access as an Army unit is now based there I think.

I'm still hoping that the airfield can re-open in some form. But, I'm biased as I was based there 1979 - 1982.

[horatio_b]

Polar Helicopters are based in one of the hangars

[handleturning]

Government have granted permission for the redevelopment of Manston.

[N707ZS]

Any clue, airport, housing, lorry park...?

[SWBKCB]

Plans to transform Manston Airport into a freight cargo air hub have today been given the green light - paving the way for hundreds of jobs to be created and a £300 million boost to east Kent (https://www.kentonline.co.uk/).

It will become a dedicated air freight facility, able to handle at least 10,000 air cargo movements per year whilst also offering passenger, executive travel, and aircraft engineering services.North Thanet MP Sir Roger Gale welcomed today's announcement. He said: “This decision reflects the wishes of the majority of the people of Thanet. I applaud the determination of those who have worked so hard in support of this cause and the commitment of RiverOak who, since the airport was closed, have not wavered in their determination to see Manston re-opened as a freight hub and, subsequently, as a passenger and general aviation airfield again.
"I hope that Kent County Council and, particularly, Thanet District Council will now unreservedly throw their weight behind this job-creating project. £300 million of inward investment is a sum that East Kent has never seen before.The capacity to create good, long term employment is colossal.This would be good news for Thanet and good news for the country at any time but in the middle of an economically devastating pandemic is a shot in the arm for the nation.We know that there is a long haul ahead and that it will be at least a couple of years before we see wheels landing on tarmac again but the starting gun has been fired and now we can get on with the real task of creating a state-of-the-art zero-carbon airport."When it re-opens, Manston is planned to be the most environmentally friendly airfieldin the world and that will send a clear signal that a new Britain is very much open for business. Manston has been at the front line of the Battle for Britain in the past and I look forward to seeing an inaugural Spitfire landing on that famous runway again within my parliamentary lifetime.”

Hope they've got a major operator already lined up, or this seems very 'brave' - 10,000 movements a year, 30 a day? Blimey...

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/plans-for-manston-airport-approved-230082/

[davidjohnson6]

Might I ask where the money for this redevelopment is going to come from ? Words are cheap, but people tend to be more reluctant to invest large quantities of cash during a recession

[N707ZS]

East Midlands and Doncaster seem to have cleaned up on the cargo Manston used to get.

[deedave]

Planning inspectorate recommended the application should be refused. Secretary of State decided to disregard the recommendation. Politicians with undisclosed agenda? Wonder if there'll be a Judicial Review.

[SWBKCB]

Who will be funding any JR request?

[Asturias56]

Nice place to live once they start on the houses............

[VickersVicount]

Cargo - limited short term potential. Pax ops - Pipe dream

[pamann]

To be fair we would have said that about Southend a few years ago. I could see a few flights from Ryanair. Maybe the odd foreign charter flight to say Spain/Turkey/Cyprus. Apparently KL were quite happy with their twice daily AMS before the airport was forced to close?

I can’t see anything major though on the pax ops like the days of EUJet (who I actually used and were very impressed with).

[SWBKCB]

well worth £300m

[pamann]

That’s not just for pax ops though is it. It’s primary purpose is cargo. Pax ops from what I’ve understood are something to be developed after the cargo side has been established, I understand a new terminal building will be built?

[no slots]

Nice bit of encouraging news in this time of doom and gloom for aviation. 300million ? Won't see any change from that! Massive infrastructure development required to pull this one off, but, if they do it properly it could work.
Airfreight has had a massive wakeup call during this Covid 19 period with belly freight almost non existent due to the rapid reduction in passenger flying. The other companies that tried before got it totally wrong and had different agendas which is why it failed twice.
There will be none of the old smokey, vintage aircraft operating into there as they've all been banned from UK airspace for a number of years. Before the 'Manston knockers' pitch up with their 'no catchment' and poor road links argument if the price is right , they will come. I know people that drive to Scotland to save £500 on a summer holiday when the Scottish schools go back when ours break up. It's all about service and cost. Good service and cheap cost will win out every time with operators and the public.
Manston played a massive part in my life and career and I hope that the new owners get it right and are a success.

[fjencl]

15.07.2020 - 14:45 UTC

Manston (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/1901) Kent International Airport's owner, RiverOak Strategic Partners (RSP), has secured a Development Consent Order (DCO) from the UK's transport minister, Andrew Stephenson, to rebuild the airport as an international cargo and passenger hub.

The decision, which overruled a Planning Inspectorate recommendation to reject the scheme, envisages the airport in Kent - located at the tip of southeastern England geographically close to continental Europe - to open by 2023.

It will handle up to 10,000 cargo flights a year, according to RSP, as well as passenger services. Construction is due to start in 2021, the Guardian newspaper reported.

Manston's last commercial flights, a KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/KL) service to Amsterdam Schiphol (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/3113), operated until April 2014. The site was then bought for a nominal GBP1 pound (USD1.25) a year before being sold to developers and earmarked for housing.

RiverOak, which acquired Manston for GBP16.5 million (USD21.7 million) in July 2019, has promised that its GBP300 million (USD375 million) project to reopen it will create more than 23,000 jobs. Recently, it has pressed its case by arguing that the Covid-19 pandemic and Brexit have amplified the need for more specialist cargo capacity.

"Once built, Manston will be one of the most modern, efficient, and environmentally-friendly freight hubs in the world," claimed Tony Freudmann, the developer's director.

Roger Gale, Member of Parliament for the relatively deprived area, North Thanet, where the airport is located, said: "This national asset has been closed for far too long, but it can now play a critical role in delivering jobs and investment. [...] Post-Brexit Britain is going to need additional air freight capacity and Manston can offer this swiftly."

However, the local No Night Flights campaign group and the Green Party both said they would challenge the decision, arguing that there was no evidence the project would create jobs.

[fjencl]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/93073-manston-uk-secures-green-light-to-reopen

[deedave]

Judicial review is being launched to challenge the Secretary of State's decision to grant the DCO against the recommendations of the Government Planning Inspectorate. JR is crowd funded by local residents. Initial target of £12k was reached in 2 hours. Now approaching £30k

[Trash 'n' Navs]

On what grounds is the JR being sought?

AFAIK, it can only be brought on the grounds of illegality, irrationality or procedural unfairness and not to re-argue the merits of the development. So it normally depends on whether the SoS has misinterpreted policy, not considered the environmental effects or the process itself was unfair. Just reaching a different decision to the Planning Inspector isn’t sufficient grounds.

Even the LHR JR didn’t reverse the decision, just found that the SoS hadn’t properly considered the environmental impact and would need to do so. Only after reconsidering that impact could the decision be reconfirmed or changed - not the JR itself.

[OC37]

10,000 movements per year is not 10,000 aircraft, it is 5,000 aircraft, each movement being an arrival or departure, to arrive and depart would be two movements, milking the figures perhaps!

So 5,000 aircraft per year would be 13.7 aircraft per day, allowing for a night curfew around one aircraft every 74 minutes, an arrival or departure every 37 minutes, courier movements excluded is there any UK airport that has this volume of dedicated freighter movements?

And it remains that Manston's 2,748m runway simply isn't long enough for heavy freighters which, reading back, there appears to be a misconception regarding, a lack of knowledge of runway and aircraft performance perhaps.

An example of this is the TK6491 crash in Bishkek, that aircraft wasn't routing thru FRU for a traffic stop, it was merely a refuelling stop whilst en-route HKG/IST. Block time of 11hr 20min HKG/IST should be a walk in the park for a B747-400 but not when loaded up to max payload, as so many freighters regularly are, and between max payload and MTOW off HKG's 3,800m runway they simply couldn't get enough fuel on to route direct HKG/IST.

And doubters please, by all means, work out the max payload and then fuel up to MTOW off Manston's 2,748m runway, calculate the total fuel on board and recognise just how far such a B747-400F could get before it needs to stop for fuel again.

I'm ex RAF and I grew up on the Kent/Surrey border so I would like to see Manston survive but to suggest that an airfield way out on a peninsula like it is and with less than desirable road connections is going to attract so many dedicated freighter movements, heavy movements excluded, every 37 minutes has to be living in cloud cuckoo land.

Some airports that struggle for catchment make money from on-site maintenance facilities, OK deals are done to attract the maintenance facility but thereafter revenue is generated from landing & navigation charges, aircraft parking, refuelling, such maintenance facilities attract aircraft storage revenue, NWI, EXT, CWL, QLA to name a few, just check on GE the number of Saabs parked up at Orebro, Sweden because of an on site maintenance facility, sure Manston can make SOME revenue from freight but not enough to make the site viable, someone should be out there trying to attract a maintenance facility, some general aviation etc, after all Kent is a beautiful place to live and to visit.

[compton3bravo]

Personally I really do think some people and companies want a reality check. 10,000 movements a year, come on. Manston is over 70 miles from London and has no major towns/cities close or even reasonably near. Where is the UK's major air freight hub - East Midlands - right bang in the middle of the country. Come on let us have a bit of realism here, it is not or ever will be a major airport, sorry for those in Kent who want employment. Better get Failing Grayling on the job!

[eu01]

Just my two pennies: it takes a Eurostar train approximately 30 minutes to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford, add 12 minutes to Manston, if (partially) new high-speed tracks were built further to this airport... Considering passenger services, not bad at all. No cost-effectiveness analysis here, pondering only.

[OC37]

Ashford might be in the same county but it is nowhere even close to Manston, Manston has a couple of commuter rail lines close by, kind of like putting high-speed non-stop trains between London and Southend airport, it can't be done without crashing in to the back of regularly stopping commuter trains.

[sellbydate]

They'll make tonnes more money renting out their 165+ acres of concrete and tarmac to the UK government for a lorry park post December 31st than they ever will from aviation, albeit at half an hour/20 miles from Dover, it's not ideally located for one of those post-Brexit transition period new border inspection posts.

[asdf1234]

OC37

The HS1 high speed South Eastern trains (Javelin) run between Ashford and London daily and at the end of their shift they bed down for the night at the Ramsgate sidings. Ramsgate station is a 7 minute drive from the airport. The Javelin service runs slow to Ashford and then operates as a High Speed service to London. In pre COVID times the journey time was just over the hour to get into London (Stratford interchange was substantially under the hour mark).

Of course the renewal of Manston is not predicated on pax traffic but freight for which it is ideally suited, has a pre-existing BIP and high quality chilled freight sheds. The USP is that the Cargolux 747s could get their first pallets onto waiting lorries and on the road to London within 40 minutes of touching down. In all likelihood cargo landing at Manston could be in the London morning markets well before Heathrow cargo has even left the airport boundary.

[DaveReidUK]

compton3bravo

Quite so.

In order to justify a freight hub at Manston, one would need to redefine the word "hub" to mean a point that's as far away as possible, on average, from everywhere else in the country. :ugh:

[SWBKCB]

Of course the renewal of Manston is not predicated on pax traffic but freight for which it is ideally suited, has a pre-existing BIP and high quality chilled freight sheds. The USP is that the Cargolux 747s could get their first pallets onto waiting lorries and on the road to London within 40 minutes of touching down. In all likelihood cargo landing at Manston could be in the London morning markets well before Heathrow cargo has even left the airport boundary.

A business plan which depends on the air freighting of fresh produce is not one I'd be putting money into - somebody someday is going to twig how all those flowers for Valentines day get here...

[andrewn]

Yep, some really good points here, it is sad how many of the yokels have immediately boarded the outrage bus, assuming Manston is on the verge of becoming the next LHR. As has been stated the chances of that happening are non existent. Doubtess what they will get, in time, is some form of ugly mixed use housing / industrial development....

[OC37]

asdf1234

Precisely what description of cargo are Cargolux B747's going to be flying-in that needs to be in the London Markets so PDQ, how many B747's per day is that likely to warrant, where shall they be flying in from and what description of backloads shall they be flying out of Manston or another not so far away airport> I recall when the there was a problem shipping across the channel, I can't recall if the cause was the French ports blockade or the Channel Tunnel fire, but then the major food chains were making contingencies of such as, turboprops, B737's or similar freighters out of the likes of CQF & OST to UK, not B747's!

But the air freight industry works on backloads, one way traffic and the other way ferry flying makes for very expensive cargo, backloads out of Kenya are flowers, out of Ghana pineapples, so any freighters dropping off anywhere in the vicinity of those drops in to pick-up a backload of flowers or pineapples, what backloads are there to be had out of Manston?

And with London taken care of what about feeding the rest of the country and what about all the other Manston freighter arrivals of one per 74 minutes? :)

And, let's say, Manston has a night curfew until 0600L, what time allowing for unloading then reloading on to trucks, less than desirable roads, morning rush hour, unloading and sorting, how is it going to make it to a London morning market?

[Romaro]

'Best place for a new UK cargo hub then?'

'Well.....how about Manston?'

'It's the furthest possible point from the centre of the UK, does that really make sense?'

'Er, well, maybe, but hey, they've got an allowance of 14 landings a day, so that's got to be a good thing though?'

[FFMAN]

Wouldn't take long to do the project appraisal on this: 300m investment paid back through the landing charges of 'up to' 14 cargo planes a day. You would need a Fedex and / or DHL operation to make 14 a day and that's not going to happen unless you tempt them there by letting them land for free; and even that wouldn't be enough probably, due to the 'back end of nowhere' location.
And relying on pure freighters is a sure fire way to burn the 300m. Pure fantasy project.
Remember the old aviation adage: 'the best way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one'.

[asdf1234]

OC37

In 2014 the airport handled 44,000 tonnes of cargo with Cargolux accounting for 50% of that figure. The argument then was that as the Locos take up London landing slots the cargo gets pushed out of London. The argument still stands today (unless you are going counter by blathering on about COVID).

Why the negativity? It's not your dosh being invested.

[OC37]

Negativity or realism?

[handleturning]

What curfew?

No night flights.

[OC37]

I've been watching Dragon's Den :)

asdf1234,

Even to cover, let's say, opening/operational hours of 0600L-2300L Monday thru Sunday MSE is going to need to employ some 4 watches of fire fighters and 4 watches of Air Traffic Control personnel, it's also going to need to employ some 4 watches of loading staff along with some passenger handling staff, 4 watches of refuellers, then it's going to need to employ administrative personnel, a couple of maintenance type guys to maintain the vehicles and equipment, some electricians, some cleaners, a groundsman/gardener and that's just the Indians, MSE can't have Indians without having some Chiefs so then come all the Duty Officers, junior and senior managers etc.

So what would you estimate MSE's annual salaries bill to be?

Then there comes ground rent, rates or council tax or whatever, water, electricity, gas, fuel for vehicles and equipment, general maintenance and wear and tear expenses etc.

So what would you estimate MSE's annual bill for these to be?

Now, if as you suggest, in 2014 Cargolux generates 22,000 tonnes of cargo may I presume that was 5 x B747F's per week, you say other carriers generated a further 22,000 tonnes of cargo so perhaps we may round the total freighter movements of 2014 up to an average of 14 per week, 2 per day!

What would you estimate the net profit to be of 730 freighters and 44,000 tonnes of cargo per annum?

How can anyone in their right mind value such a business at £300 million?

You suggested that I am being negative but I'm not, if you read back thru my posts I am actually suggesting positivity, RiverOak have suggested 14 freighters per day yet you have suggested only 2 freighters per day, and I'm the one being negative? :)

MSE is never going to become viable on air freight alone, they need to think outside of the box and to what an airfield in such a remote location can do to market itself for business and I've suggested a maintenance facility, general aviation, I had a look on GE at Lydd yesterday and visible on the ground were 14 singles, 6 twins and 1 rotary, what are they doing there, why aren't RiverOak marketing for general aviation, maintenance rather than freight and perhaps some passenger services as an aside?

I used to drive semi-regularly from S. Wales to Ramsgate and to get there was the southern M25 wasn't good, the drive necessitates the M25, M20, then a cut thru past the old Detling airfield on the A249 to join the M2, then the A roads after the end of the M2, and that was in a car, trucks don't like going thru thru the gears, they like to, as best as possible, get up to cruising speed and stay there.

I wish Manston well but it's going to need more than just air freight to achieve it!

[Romaro]

If the proposed cargo flights are limited to 10,000/annum (5,000 landings/annum - 14 per day), what are the proposed annual movement limits for everything else - airline, business aviation, GA, MRO visitors etc? Assuming the night curfew is from 23:00 to 06:00hrs (which is pretty hopeless for a great chunk of prospective cargo activity).

[Asturias56]

"MSE is going to need to employ some 4 watches of fire fighters and 4 watches of Air Traffic Control personnel, it's also going to need to employ some 4 watches of loading staff along with some passenger handling staff, 4 watches of refuellers, then it's going to need to employ administrative personnel, a couple of maintenance type guys to maintain the vehicles and equipment, some electricians, some cleaners, a groundsman/gardener and that's just the Indians, MSE can't have Indians without having some Chiefs so then come all the Duty Officers, junior and senior managers etc."

pity multi-tasking went out of fashion... I can think of some airfields in the US and Australia that get by with a total staff of 4 or 5

[SWBKCB]

I can think of some airfields in the US and Australia that get by with a total staff of 4 or 5

Many airfields in the UK manage with that, but not one's handling wide-bodied freighters :O

[asdf1234]

OC37

Yes, I know the answer to how much ATC and fire cover will cost at Manston. And I know how much it costs to employ cargo handlers. Whilst I could enter into the detailed debate and start quoting facts and figures I think you miss the point. Start with looking at the team assembled to bring this project to fruition. Collectively do they have more, or less experience than you when it comes to investing in, and running airports?

Do you think that anyone contemplating spending £300m on a project would do so on a whim? Or would do so without knowing for certain the detailed history of the night flights situation, or would do so without knowing which cargo operators would support the airport?

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Where is the UK's major air freight hub - East Midlands - right bang in the middle of the country.

Not true C3B. EMA has the most cargo flown to/from the EU (thanks to DHL) but “the UK’s major air freight hub” is LHR with 1.6m tonnes of flown cargo (excludes the cargo trucked to/from the EU). LHR is ranked #4 in Europe by tonnes.

Come on let us have a bit of realism here, it is not or ever will be a major airport, sorry for those in Kent who want employment.

At 10k freighter flights, I don’t think even the developers are saying it will be.

As for the commercial viability and as were using rough guesses, they could well generate upwards of £17m per year just from landing fees (aero charges). Add in parking fees for long-stay aircraft and non-aero charges (eg handling charges, storage, customs clearance and other related charges) and you could be looking at more than double that. Not a bad little business that.

As for B747-8F performance, at 85% of max payload and 30% of max fuel, it weighs 98% of its max landing weight and requires 2,300m of runway available. For take-off, at MTOW it would require 3,000m of runway so given MSE is only 2750m, either they need to extend the runway by 300m or limit the B747-8F to 90% of its MTOW. Even at 90% MTOW, you’re looking at either 15% of max payload with full fuel or 100% of max payload with 40% fuel (it can’t carry full fuel AND full payload) which would get you to Moscow or Istanbul. In reality, it would likely be loaded to 85% payload weight due to physical size & density of the cargo. So MSE can offer decent range from its runway even for a heavy B747-8F.

Just saying...

[deedave]

All of which explains why MSE was a runaway success during 16 years of ops and why it can't possibly fail during the coming decades of recession and large amounts of spare capacity at every other airport.

[handleturning]

I guess we’ll get to see if you’re correct. I suspect the current owners will make a better job than many of their predecessors.

[deedave]

How? By lifting up the entire airfield and moving it to a suitable location? This is a runway built for short range European ops in two world wars. If the runway didn't exist, would you build one in this location?

[deedave]

PS the current owners are led by the same person who started this in 1998

[handleturning]

Started what exactly? Out of interest, are your views based on professional interest or NIMBYism?

[OC37]

Start with looking at the team assembled to bring this project to fruition. Collectively do they have more, or less experience than you when it comes to investing in, and running airports?

I don't know, might you care to reitterate who the Manston resurrection team members are and what there experiences are.

Just curious though as to how many airports they have previously run, what has happened to those airports and why are these people still not employed at those airports?

[QUOTE=asdf1234;10843679]Do you think that anyone contemplating spending £300m on a project would do so on a whim?

Do you really want me to answer that? :)

Or would do so without knowing for certain the detailed history of the night flights situation, or would do so without knowing which cargo operators would support the airport?

I do happen to have worked in the air cargo sector, there are not so many scheduled service cargo operators around and are more often than not a spin-off from the national carriers, if Manston has anywhere near enough such carriers to boast 5,000 aircraft per annum then I shall eat my hat.

Aside from scheduled carriers air cargo is very much an adhoc market, many a fly-by-night operator operating aircraft under a flag of convenience, lacking any interested regulating authority regarding maintenance, crew regulations etc., such operators start-up and go bust regularly, those around this year may not be around next year so no use for planning purposes and they only fly if the phone rings, it might be flowers from Kenya, pineapples from Ghana, cod from Iceland but if there is such a volume for adhoc cargo in UK then why are there no UK resident adhoc cargo operators?

[OC37]

At 10k freighter flights, I don’t think even the developers are saying it will be.

They are not saying 10k freighters, they are kind of being economic with the truth saying 10k movements, one freighter arriving and departing is 2 movements.

As for the commercial viability and as were using rough guesses, they could well generate upwards of £17m per year just from landing fees (aero charges). Add in parking fees for long-stay aircraft and non-aero charges (eg handling charges, storage, customs clearance and other related charges) and you could be looking at more than double that. Not a bad little business that.

And after deducting overheads and operating costs the net profit per annum shall be?

As for B747-8F performance, at 85% of max payload and 30% of max fuel, it weighs 98% of its max landing weight and requires 2,300m of runway available. For take-off, at MTOW it would require 3,000m of runway so given MSE is only 2750m, either they need to extend the runway by 300m or limit the B747-8F to 90% of its MTOW. Even at 90% MTOW, you’re looking at either 15% of max payload with full fuel or 100% of max payload with 40% fuel (it can’t carry full fuel AND full payload) which would get you to Moscow or Istanbul. In reality, it would likely be loaded to 85% payload weight due to physical size & density of the cargo. So MSE can offer decent range from its runway even for a heavy B747-8F

And how much freight needs shifting to MOW or IST?

The reality is that freighters shall need to operate to the N. America eastern seaboard such as Gander or Bangor/Maine, to somewhere like Novosibirsk for a fuel stop en-route to Asia, to Middle East, to Africa etc. and Manston's 2,748m runway simply isn't long enough to achieve these!

[deedave]

The director of RSP is the same person who was director of Wiggins/Planestation in 1998/1999 when Manston was sold into private hands by the MOD. My interest in this matter is professional but this is an anonymous forum and with respect this should not be your concern.

[handleturning]

Ultimately, approval is in place and the development is highly likely to go ahead. Time will tell how successful RSP are, but this is good for aviation.

[Romaro]

Looking at the RSP website they have a lot of grown-ups in the assembled team of consultants and advisors so will know what it takes to get back up and running and then the running costs thereafter, no doubts there in terms of the knowledge base within the team.

The questions are what will it really costs to get back up and running - there is zero infrastructure, everything ripped out and flogged off when it closed, you can't just flick the lights on, there are no lights! There is literally nothing there aside from shells of buildings and huge volumes of concrete and tarmac. Timescales to be up and operational is a huge grey area, I suspect theory and practice will be miles apart.

Then the business model on a maximum of 14 freighter rotations a day has to be supplemented by a pile of other revenue streams, what are those likely to be - geography has a very significant impact on that viability?

[Max Angle]

Does anyone know if there is any possibility of flying a light aircraft into Manston nowadays or is it completely shut?

[OC37]

Romaro

I don't believe it is a maximum of 14 freighters per day, a pipe dream perhaps but RSP have boasted that they anticipate 10,000 freighter movements per annum which, by my calculation, equates to an average of 13.69 aircraft per day.

You are right, as I keep saying myself, regarding other revenue streams, I read recently that Marshall's are to sell CBG and were looking for another UK airfield home, has anybody from RSP been in contact with Marshall's as to what Manston has to offer them, look at what has been achieved at Kemble, aircraft scrapping/recycling, general aviation, vintage aircraft etc. and without a passenger of freighter service in sight, Manston needs to be sourcing a maintenance facility operator, Lufthansa Technik have 12 facilities across Europe, have Lufty along with other European maintenance operators been marketed, get an on-field maintenance facility and they shall bring in the aircraft for the airfield operator.

Last time GE flew over there were 21 aircraft visible on the ground at Lydd, 27 aircraft visible at Headcorn, attract a general aviation maintenance operator to attract just some of these and other aircraft, develop a flying club with cafe/bar to attract based aircraft, day trippers and spotters alike to spend their time and money in, as suggested RSP shall be starting with literally a blank canvas, they shall not be upsetting any existing on-site businesses by kicking them out to redevelop any particular area(s) of the airfield, the opportunities are endless with the appropriate management and marketing.

And, as a previous poster appears to have confirmed, at MTOW off Manston's runway a B747F would only be good for around a 4 hour leg before it would need to stop for fuel again, that is going to increase the costs of many a B747F operation out of Manston whilst, as others have pointed out, the guy in charge of this attempted Manston resurgence is the guy that was in charge when PlaneStation, previous owners of Manston and EUJet, folded for a debt of £40 million!

[handleturning]

Does anyone know if there is any possibility of flying a light aircraft into Manston nowadays or is it completely shut?

The airfield is closed.

[Asturias56]

"Lufthansa Technik have 12 facilities across Europe," which they are trying to reduce ...................

[Buster the Bear]

Great idea opening an MRO. How on earth you recruit those requisite people with the skills to maintain aircraft is another matter.

[Jonty]

OC37

East Midlands seems to do pretty well at just over 2800m.

[OC37]

Should the load be courier related traffic then the payloads shall not be 'heavy', as a rule of thumb courier loads are relatively lightweight by comparison but any B747F's out of EMA shall not be departing at maximum structural weights and if they are departing at MTOW for EMA's runway length then, unless a cold day with a strong headwind, they shall only be operating a 4 hour or so leg before landing to refuel.

[Romaro]

Not a chance whatsoever that Marshall would migrate that far away from Cambridge. All their assets are the people, that kind of geographical move would lose the vast majority of the workforce.

[asdf1234]

Marshalls are looking at Cranfield according to the press releases.

[SWBKCB]

And one of the disadvantages being quoted for that move is the distance from CBG...

[Twitcher]

The airfield is closed.
The runway is, two helicopter companies operate from the field.

[southside bobby]

Manston a dead duck again?

The Government DCO to re-open Manston as a cargo terminal has been officially quashed by the High Court due to lack of appropriate evidence to support such a development.
Government & RSP to pay all costs.

[andrewn]

I suspect the plan all along was really too concrete over it with a huge new town.

Still if that's what the locals would prefer, then good luck to them I say....

[LTNman]

The next DCO application will be Luton which will be harder to obtain than Manston’s failed attempt.

[Twitcher]

BBC Link (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-62597620)

DCO Approved again, reopen to freight in 2025.

[davidjohnson6]

Feels a bit like a singer who was famous many years ago but spent several years having a quiet life then coming out of retirement. Alas most champion boxers don't typically have much in common with the Rocky films

[felixflyer]

Great news, it would be such a shame to see that runway buried under a load of shoddily built new homes.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Is this a response to DSA's recent notice of potential closure, offering themselves up as an unconstrained site to move cargo through that might not be able to get slots or suitable infrastructure elsewhere in England?

[SWBKCB]

Is this a response to DSA's recent notice of potential closure, offering themselves up as an unconstrained site to move cargo through that might not be able to get slots or suitable infrastructure elsewhere in England?

Doubt it - been rumbling on for years.

And the unconstrained site with the infrastructure and no slot restrictions at DSA was getting 2/3 flights a week.

[ATNotts]

The whole concept of re-opening of Manston as a "cargo hub" is total nonsense. Sitting as it does in the extreme southeast corner of England, south of the Thames with a river crossing at Dartford that is totally unfit for purpose, and a motorway network leading from it to said crossing being totally inadequate for the traffic it currently carries how exactly does it expect to attract cargo carriers in the number it would need to be viable. The likes of DHL, UPS and FedEx aren't likely to be champing at the bit to move there, as it's in completely the wrong place from a logistics perspective. If the integrators are taken out of the equation what exactly is left? Emirates, Turkish, Ethiopian, and Qatar that are the bread and butter for the likes of Liege, Maastricht (both well located for western European markets with excellent road connections unlike Manston) and at least two of those are already well ensconced at STN.

Sure there are a couple of 747s per week currently operating through DSA with perishables from Africa. They operate to DSA, I suspect, because the cargo is destined for the Midland and Northern fruit and veg markets (remember those in the south there are more markets than Covent Garden!!), and therefore the likes of EMA, BHX and possibly MAN will likely be the chosen refuges for these flights should DSA close to freight operations not a far flung strip of tarmac in Kent!

[felixflyer]

The Lower Thames Crossing will likely be open towards the end of this decade. That will give a crossing from Gravesend to TIlbury as well as an upgraded road network around there. This will mean any freight headed north won't even need to go via the Dartford crossing.

Lets not forget Tilbury and Thamesport are both busy sea freight ports out in the Estuary and although they are not as far as Manston it isn't much by road. Seeing how freight moves around the country via distribution centres only to sometimes end up not far from where it started I don't see the issue. There is also a new station nearby and the possibility of rail freight should it prove to be a success.

With more imports/exports to places other than the EU post Brexit I think it could be a success and hope it is.

[ATNotts]

The Lower Thames Crossing will likely be open towards the end of this decade. That will give a crossing from Gravesend to TIlbury as well as an upgraded road network around there. This will mean any freight headed north won't even need to go via the Dartford crossing.

Lets not forget Tilbury and Thamesport are both busy sea freight ports out in the Estuary and although they are not as far as Manston it isn't much by road. Seeing how freight moves around the country via distribution centres only to sometimes end up not far from where it started I don't see the issue. There is also a new station nearby and the possibility of rail freight should it prove to be a success.

With more imports/exports to places other than the EU post Brexit I think it could be a success and hope it is.

Three points.

First, ocean freight isn't as time sensitive at air cargo, so being close to the markets isn't so important, and the UK is short of deep sea port capacity, unlike our airports, which with the exception of LHR and LGW most will have capacity to absorb the potential growth of pure cargo (non integrator) services.

Second, I admire your optimism regarding the projected new Thames road crossing. For those of us living outside the Southeast that is way overdue and might actually give us access to the short sea ports and Eurotunnel without encountering the M25. However I a yet to see so much as a sod being turned, and no evidence whatsoever of any bridge or tunnel construction so, and I would love to be proven wrong, I really doubt whether this essential piece of infrastructure will be in situ before the end of this decade.

Third, there is absolutely no evidence that there will be a move from European trade to oceanic trade; at least no more than there would have been had we remained in the EU. And anyway, there is no guarantee that any of this supposed extra trade would be suitable to be flown.

If money is to be invested in air cargo facilities in UK it perhaps needs to be in central and northern England rather than yet more capacity into the southeast where land prices and labour costs are exponentially higher.

[felixflyer]

The UK is small, nowhere is really far enough away from its final location to make it an issue, perhaps if we were talking about Wick you might have a point. There is high-speed rail and dual carriageway to the M2. Planners in other areas of the world would laugh at the thought that Manston is too far from the network to be viable.

LTC is progressing now with the project out for tender and the DCO going in later this year. Work is due to start in 2025 and it is badly needed to reduce pressure on the Dartford crossing.

In terms of building in the north rather than expensive SE. Thanet is far from being an affluent London suburb. It is an area badly in need of investment and jobs and this airport would do wonders for the area.

I get your point about building a freight hub in the midlands or expanding EMA, but building any new runway is something that could take decades of consultations and still never be approved. At Manston, we have a long runway, taxiways, space for freight warehousing and distribution, an adjacent rail line, a local population largely on-side, and large unemployment in the area. When you look at it like that there isn't a better place really. We will likely lose it under another housing estate otherwise.

If private investment has been raised and they want to make a go of it then good on them IMO.

[compton3bravo]

In my humble opinion these people are living in never never land. Thinking they are going to get over 50 flights per week they will be lucky to get 10.

[ATNotts]

In my humble opinion these people are living in never never land. Thinking they are going to get over 50 flights per week they will be lucky to get 10.

50 flights per week!! That is 7 per day, or if they mean movements between 3 and 4 per day. That won't sustain the infrastructure required to handle the aircraft, let alone the ancillary costs such as fire service, air traffic control etc etc. And I still ask, where are these 50 flights coming from? I would respectfully suggest that 25 flights per day might still make for questionable viability, given that there doesn't appear to be a plan for a PAX operation to run alongside it (such operations have fallen flat on their faces before). To get that kind of volume would involved an extensive commitment from at least one of the integrators. If they got such a commitment I'd take my hat off to them, in fact I'd probably eat it too!

I take @felixflyer's point that it is private money so the public purse won't suffer with this venture, but when private businesses fail their is always collateral damage to suppliers and hapless employees who often through no fault of their own have been sold a pup.

[Buster the Bear]

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/manston-owners-seek-to-revive-passenger-flights

[SWBKCB]

Looks like they want to copy the Southend model:RiverOak director Tony Freudmann told KentOnline: “Looking at the way the passenger market is going, we are confident we can persuade one or more low-cost carriers to base their planes here. It does not work for us if they fly in just once a day because that is not economic. If they base three or four planes at Manston, we will have rotations three or four times a day, as they have at Southend. That will cover our costs and bring passenger footfall through the terminal all day and every day.

“We will reinstate the twice daily KLM service to Amsterdam Schiphol that we had before and that will give business people in particular access to almost anywhere in the world.”

But freight services would have to be established first. “You can’t have unconditional discussions when you haven’t got a DCO,” Freudmann reportedly said. “What we do know is that [airlines] are very interested; they run feeder services from other regional airports. If you take operators like Ryanair and EasyJet, their problem is that at Gatwick, Luton and Stansted, there are no more slots between 6am and 7am. If you can’t take off before 7am, it compromises the efficiency of the day; so they base their planes at Southend; the same will be at Manston. It works very well for them because they capture the global market, particularly for business people who do not like Heathrow. We are confident it will work again. We have been in limbo. Now that is over we can resume these conversations, as well as those we have been having with cargo operators.”

[DC3 Dave]

I get the impression Tony Freudmann has not got a scooby-doo what is going on at Southend or any other airports, which makes me wonder what is this all about.

[DaveReidUK]

I think you're half right.

I get the impression Tony Freudmann has not got a scooby-doo what is going on at Southend or any other airports

[inOban]

There is a reason why the major distribution hubs are in a particular area of the Midlands. From there almost all of England and Wales can be reached out and back by a truck within permitted driving hours. A hub around the fringes of the country makes no sense.

[asdf1234]

There is a reason why the major distribution hubs are in a particular area of the Midlands. From there almost all of England and Wales can be reached out and back by a truck within permitted driving hours. A hub around the fringes of the country makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense to service London, especially overnight perishables, which can take longer to get into London from Heathrow than from an operational Manston. The London market is huge and stands heads and shoulders above any other UK metropolitan area. Landing-to-truck-leaving-the-airport times of less than 1 hour are attractive to the fresh food markets and restaurant trade.

[ATNotts]

It makes perfect sense to service London, especially overnight perishables, which can take longer to get into London from Heathrow than from an operational Manston. The London market is huge and stands heads and shoulders above any other UK metropolitan area. Landing-to-truck-leaving-the-airport times of less than 1 hour are attractive to the fresh food markets and restaurant trade.
I thought perishables were what Turkish generally shipped in on their dedicated cargo flights through STN.

Anyway you can't make a business case out of a few weekly fruit and veg flights, there needs to be much more to make a viable operation.

[Buster the Bear]

£500m of whose money is to be wasted on this folly?

Most perishables are brought in via the belly holds of airliners into the London area and elsewhere.

Mind you a 5x daily to Kigali might work......

[compton3bravo]

Less than an hour to Spiralfields market (North of the river) in less than hour, are you serious! Please can we get realistic here, there is a lot of freight flights already operating into other London airports especially Stansted p!us as somebody has already mentioned a large amount of underbelly freight. Plus talking about passenger flights give us a break it hasn't got a very big catchment area, an awful lot of water surrounding it. Rant over.

[Musket90]

Regarding Stansted, according to the Airport Co-ordination web site there is a cap on the annual number of cargo air transport movements of 20,500 which averages around 28 departures and 28 arrivals per day. I think this total is more or less fully utilised by Fedex, UPS etc so maybe this limit could benefit Manston in attracting more cargo flights to SE England.

[deedave]

I get the impression Tony Freudmann has not got a scooby-doo what is going on at Southend or any other airports, which makes me wonder what is this all about.
One thing he does have a scooby doo about is fleecing investment institutions. All his aviation activities have failed yet he still persuades them to invest in failure. Genius.

[Paradism]

I see all the usual doom and gloom merchants have come out to play.

[ATNotts]

I see all the usual doom and gloom merchants have come out to play.
The word is realism.

[compton3bravo]

May I add common sense which seems sadly lacking in the UK at the present time.

[Buster the Bear]

I wonder who the consultants are feeding the frenzy?

[Paradism]

Quote from RSP Website:"Justice Dove dismisses application to quash Government approval for the Manston Airport DCO".

[Buster the Bear]

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2023/09/22/legal-bid-to-quash-manston-airport-development-consent-is-denied/#:~:text=Mr%20Justice%20Dove%20has%20now,judicial%20review%2 0must%20be%20dismissed.%E2%80%9D

[Asturias56]

she'll appeal - the lawyers always approve infinite appeals it keeps them in business

"he DCO was granted for a second time in August 2022 by then Transport Minister Karl McCartney."

who was that???

[davidjohnson6]

What is Labour's policy on Manston airport ? The next general election seems finely balanced between Conservative and Labour

[Asturias56]

well labour has a20% lead ...... and they're going to pick up a lot of seats in Scotland. The Lib Dems are hot on the heels of the Tories in 80+ seats -

I don't think it'll be "finely balanced".

[Andy_S]

What is Labour's policy on Manston airport ?

Probably not to have one.

[Pain in the R's]

The owners of Manston might win the battle but they will surely lose the war as profits will be hard to come by leading to another closure.