Emirates Payrise

[Tricia Takanawa]

Quick question.

When was the last time EK gave a proper pay rise? I understand that they "award" the increments based on performance, but when was the last pay rise to compensate for inflation? Inc housing, schooling etc? Just wondering how it now compares to Europe.

Cheers

[Rhodes13]

I think it was circa 2011/12 with the last one being a very small amount. There has been some tinkering with flying pay rates and the hours above which overtime kicks in, although EK took that back by making it a convoluted process if you swap a flight thats in overtime already.

School fees have been adjusted since.

However the company views the step increase as a pay rise, as the pilot body was told by both the head of flight ops and the one of the guys in charge of setting salaries.

[NightVMC]

Last 2 years not even the contractual 3% steps.
had same school allowance for kids when Ijoined until I left end of last year. And you will have to pay out of your pocket for school.
Hourly payrise, what a joke, is was about 2 AED (yes 2 Dirham!!!) adjustment, but at least they increased the overtime payment threshold...
Inflation much higher than announced by government.
Introduction of 5% VAT, no adjustment to salary for that.
Housing allowance does not exist for new joiners unless you buy, has been the same for the last 6-7 years if i remember correctly.

Do your maths, they squeeze you like a lemon...all in their favour

[Pixy]

The Emirates Pilots remuneration is based off a Salary Scale, a Pay per hour component and possibly a Productivity payment if flying above a threshold of around 88 hours in a 31 day month.

The Salary Scale goes from Step 1 to Step 35.

A new joining FO would come in on Step 1. Approx. AED 25,500 (3.675 AED = 1 USD)

Each step is an increment of 3% above the one below thus Step 35 is approx. AED 69,500

Originally the step was awarded regularly each year as it was an increase for Experience, Seniority and Loyalty. The whole salary scale was published annually with the salary review with an explanation on its application. On attaining command an FO jumped 10 steps up the scale. The expected annual step was given consistently until 2004 when it became discretionary. Since then it has not been given on at least 5 years.

If there was a “salary increase” then the whole scale was moved up by the percentage increase while still maintaining the 3% step. The last significant salary increase was 5% in May 2011.

The salary scale has only been increased by 0.5% since May 2011. As such a first year FO joining today will be getting AED 180 more than one joining in May 2011. Hence Emirates has been steadily eroding salary scale through inflation.

On top of the basic salary pilots get paid for the hours they fly. FOs get AED 63.00 per block hour and Captains AED 78.75 per block hour. Assuming an annualized 80 hours per month this would result in flying pay of AED 5,040 for an FO and AED 6,300 for a captain per month.

In 2011 the flying pay was AED 45 and AED 60 respectively making an 80 hr/mth flying pay of AED 3600 and AED 4,800.

Combining the two, an FO joining in May 2011 would be paid AED 28,800 for an 80 hour month. Today he is paid AED 30,500 for an 80 hour month. This represents and increase of 6% in the last 8 years.

The published UAE inflation rates have been around 2% per annum for the same period (varying from 1% to 4%) This compounds to an approx. 20% increase in cost of living since 2011. Many would argue these figures are conservative. They also ignore a 5% VAT introduced in 2018

If remuneration had kept up with inflation, a First Year FO today should be taking home an additional AED 4,000 per month.

The Productivity Pay is awarded for block hours above 85 in a 30 day month and 88 in a 31 day month. When first introduced, the thresholds were 81 hours and 83.7 hours respectively. Productivity is essentially a considerably higher rate of flying pay above these thresholds. It was introduced to reward pilots for hard work and to force rostering systems to balance rosters.

On inception the Productivity Pay system worked well as it was effectively Pro Rated in months when pilots went on leave. I.e. If half the month was spent on leave then the pilots could expect to fly approximately half the hours in the remainder of the month to achieve the productivity threshold, as would reasonably be expected. (EK pro-rates absolutely everything else)

However through various contortions (too complex to explain) this has been removed. Now a pilot who has half the month on leave will still have to fly 85/88 hours before being paid Productivity.

This facet is exploited to its full extent as the company seeks to maximize the hours in any month a pilot has leave because it essentially it does not have to pay for productivity above the pro-rated threshold. It is not unusual to see rosters containing 7-10 days leave still containing up to 85 hours. No Productivity will be paid. The best way to achieve this is roster compression with ULR.

This dynamic distorts both the Bidding System and the Leave System. ULR flights are not given to some pilots who bid for them as they are awarded to others who have leave in the month in order to maximize their productivity. Likewise any pilot would be insane to bid for short periods of leave in a month as he will still have to fly up to 85/88 hours without any additional pay. In effect he/she has given away the leave. As such most pilots bid for the maximum leave in a month as it leaves less opportunity for roster compression on the remaining days. Because of these dynamics, those who might bid for short leave blocks do not, and the leave system struggles to award longer blocks, resulting in less leave satisfaction or simply forced leave.

In summary this distortion of the Productivity Pay system can be likened to a office worker who goes on leave then is expected to work at night to make up the lost hours, with no additional pay.

I’m often incredulous at the various forums and washups that pilots attend with management during which there are multiple complaints of roster dissatisfaction, leave dissatisfaction and fatigue. Promises are made to try and improve the systems. Of course they are futile because the systems cannot be balanced as long as the Productivity Pay system does not account for leave by pro rating the balance of the month. However the company saves tens of millions of AED per annum by this clawback of leave so its unlikely to change any time soon without a complete overhaul of remuneration.

As remuneration should be proportional to work which in turn is proportional to fatigue, the EK remuneration system is at the root of most of the problems in these areas.

In terms of a wholistic overview of the past 2 decades of EK remuneration the following may be of interest:

In May 1999 a first year FO earned AED 16,000. There was no flying pay and this was the monthly take-home even if on leave. With this he could buy 15.5 Oz of gold ($280)

Today a first year FO will earn around AED 30,500 assuming an 80 hour month. With this he can buy 5.9 Oz of Gold ($1400)

Perhaps that puts it in perspective. However this is not unusual to Emirates or even airlines as a whole. This is the dynamic that over the past few decades has resulted in the ever growing transfer of wealth to the richest and ultimately will lead to the unravelling of society as we know it.

[NightVMC]

Well explained, mine was the shorter version, Pixy explained everything very well!

Also don't forget, that EK's medical benefits are getting less and less, meaning more to pay out of your pocket.

BUT,...well, there is no BUT....

[KippaLippa]

Not quite sure Pixy mentioned it, but another interesting thing happened somewhere between 2004 and 2014, the pay scale which used to be available for anyone to consult is now secretly kept in a "retribution manual" which is not accessible to the employees.
this adds to the whole transparency....
like the seniority list which just disappeared one day.
Who cares, really?

[Pif Paf]

Years ago when we got a step or pay rise we were sent a letter showing where we were in the rates of pay, so we knew what step we were in and what was next.
That quickly went after people questioned rates of pay compared to other airlines.
Seniority list quickly disappeared when people used it as proof people were leaving!

Emirates hates to be proved wrong especially when it’s own publications are used to prove a point!

[Chesty Morgan]

Introduction of 5% VAT, no adjustment to salary for that.
So you think you should get a pay rise every time tax goes up?

Yeeessss that's how reality works isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Kennytheking]

Chesty, nobody is suggesting that is how it works. The introduction of VAT represents an additional erosion of our purchasing power. It is a simple fact. Make of it what you wish.

[fliion]

Good post by Pixy but the 2011 bump can’t be considered a raise because we took a 20.5% cut in 2009 - 17.5% when the threshold went from 78-92 “temporarily” and 3% from the lack of step. In 2010 we received 6% which covered the missed step (but not the back pay of step)

The last actual pay raise was in May 2008 - which was 12%. (14 wk profit share also)

have to agree with his sentiment though - it’s puzzling to be in wash in up and see very little outrage at the annual pay cut we receive due no step coupled with inflation, even more frustrating is the complete lack of understanding by many new hire FOs who do not understand that they are going backwards by saying “...tough year, good news no pay cut though..”

Inflation without step is a pay cut. I’ll leave VAT to someone else.

[felixthecat]

Well explained Pixy, new joiners should read this and see where they are going. The terms conditions and pay are melting like the proverbial ice cube in the desert sun. For years and years the company has said rosters would become more manageable, both with hours flown and ease of bidding. This HAS NOT happened. If you are lucky you will get one flight you bid for in each of the two top bid months (regardless of seniority), the remaining three months are a mess of critically fatiguing night flights with 1 or 2 days off between them (very occasionally 3) You will fly your full 900hrs a year plus you can also fly well in excess since this doesn’t include augment time, only seat time.

They are keeping up with pilot demand by lowering the threshold for joining and with it the standards, all whilst moaning that there are more and more incidents. Any fool can realise that the two obviously go hand in hand.

The new joiners now rarely have any aspiration to stay long term, it is now an adventure into shiny jets and long haul for a few years before moving on. Gone are the days where you joined with a career in mind. Even the company realises this and tries to tie the new joiners to the company with higher bonds and longer periods required to pay them off, even requiring command bonds now due to the loss of new commanders.

[Pixy]

Folks – If I may respond. Not to dispute your points but perhaps clarify for those wanting to know how the system works and the history.

KippaLippa

The last time the pay scale was published was in 2003 along with the annual pay review, as always. In 2004 we got the pay review but the salary scale was not published with it. At the time they needed and were recruiting DEC’s. However not all DEC’s came in on the same salary. Technically they should have come in on Level 1 and immediately jumped to Level 11 as per policy. Some would not accept this salary so negotiated a higher one. EK simply put them on higher levels to accommodate, thus disrupting the established system. In order to avoid the understandable outrage from Captains who had been in the company as FO’s and upgraded to captains, the system was made opaque.

Pif Paf

Yes the seniority list was effectively scrambled so that individuals could not calculate the attrition rates and query them in various forums. Vague excuses were used, none of them convincing. Attrition was up to 7% earlier this year. Lately it has dropped to about 4.9%. But its all about how you measure it. With creative statistics the company claims it is lower.

It is a fact that the company makes it difficult to do any analysis when it knows the area is problematic. The removal of Duty Time on rosters in 2011 is another example. At this point A330 pilots were doing up to 50% more duty time than other fleets and getting proportionately less rest. Answer: Remove the Duty Time column from the rosters and only publish Block Time. Many excuses made, none with merit as the cabin crew maintained a roster with Duty Time column published for years after. This incidentally was due to the large increase to the productivity threshold in 2009 on the basis of more ULR flying. Someone forgot to take into account that the A330 didn’t do ULR. How those crews managed to avoid a fatigue related accident is a credit to their professionalism. It did knock years off their lives I expect.

Fliion

The increase in productivity threshold, I would not call a pay cut in the strictest terms. I somewhat glossed over that as it is complex and I wanted to simply stay with the remuneration rather than the increase in rate of work for that remuneration.

However I take your point in that it removed money from the pocket. It resulted in 2 outcomes. Less take home pay as most pilots were worked to the new threshold, so pilots lost thousands in Productivity Pay. The second being a drop in pay per flying hour in total. Simply put they cut our rate of pay by demanding more hours for the same money.

It was a considerable reduction, as you say around 17% more work demanded for the same pay. It was publicized as a temporary measure to deal with the 2009 financial crisis. It was much later marginally reduced to the current 88. I think this was because the fatigue levels with non ULR rosters were alarming.

The Productivity Pay system still remains the underlying problem in all aspects today. Introduced in 1996, it was sensible and fair, and designed to reward those who “went the extra mile”. It was of great benefit to both parties. The company benefitted as the additional hours were about half the cost of what was paid in total for an block hour (cost of pilot per annum divided by 900) and existing pilots could earn more without additional overhead cost. Most importantly it catered for proportional productivity thresholds when pilots took leave (albeit with a marginal benefit to the company)

Again in 2004 this was disingenuously contorted when they removed many aspects of the system but lowered the thresholds claiming it would be “cost neutral”. It may indeed have been cost neutral to them but totally unbalanced the process leading to an unfair system that allowed abuse, the main one being it allowed the company to compress rosters in an effort to make pilots work back their leave for no productivity pay. Despite lowering the threshold of a 31 day month to 78 block hours, we find ourselves today doing 88 block hours before Productivity kicks in.

This of course lead to other problems. Example; limiting days off before and after leave. This was done on the claim of one pilot calling in fatigued after leave and days off. The story may have been true though we don’t know the background, however this was never the reason to limit days off after leave. The truth is that the message was not to expect days off before or after leave because you are unlikely to get them. Your roster will be compressed to make up for the leave you are taking!

Summary

The remuneration has failed to keep up with inflation. AIMINGHIGH123 is correct in that this is the same throughout the industry. I believe the trend will continue. A stark warning to anyone seeking to take up the career. A warning to those early in the career to perhaps consider alternative plans unless you want to fly yourself to an early grave. I cant see our cadets keeping this up for the next 40 years.

Technology is largely responsible. Companies can sustain much less experience as the many automated and improved systems allow less experienced crews to perform relatively safely. Essentially automation is already diminishing our rewards for experience we have. I suspect the next step is to vastly reduce the requirements for pilots augmenting in the cruise further leading to effective salary cuts. I don’t see single pilot ops for many years.

However, I do believe that the cost cutting by lowering experience has hidden unforeseen consequences. Ask Boeing how this has worked out for them. Cozy with the regulator and cutting aggressively while claiming the product is as safe. Sound familiar? They simply couldn’t anticipate how it would catch up with them. It always does in this industry.

As for this company… IMHO there will be no satisfaction on issues like rosters, leave and fatigue until our hugely complicated, administratively inefficient and expensive, and eye-wateringly inequitable remuneration system is completely overhauled.

It’s easy to do with intelligence and a good background (which I’m not convinced many managers actually have on this topic) but it would require input from sensible pilots who understand the system and a management that had a genuine interest in rewarding proportionately and curbing the fatigue and inexperience threat that hangs over us and will inevitably manifest in some way.

[fliion]

PIXY, agree with everything you say - in particular the inevitability of a consequence to this lack of experience joining.

For those interested the past numbers below:

To put it in historical perspective - Pay increases /bonus since 2000.

I have combined step or lack thereof in the increase number and called it an increase for simplicity (yes I know step is not an increase)


I do not have profit share or Edu support allowance numbers from 2000-2007.
2000-2007 numbers were provided by a colleague

05/00
3%
05/01
5%
05/02
6%
05/03
3%
05/04
5%
05/05
11%
05/06,
10%
05/07
9%


Pay raise/profit share/Edu/housing since May 2008
05/08
12% 14 wks
05/09
0% 0 wks - GF Crisis - OT threshold 78>92
05/10
6% 3wks
05/11 (edu fund 32-40/54-60 (tel:32-40/54-60))
8% 12wks
05/12
3%
05/13 (edu fund 40-42/60-63 (tel:40-42/60-63))
3.5%
05/14 (staff travel erosion)
3% 3wks (edu 42-46/63-70 (tel:42-46/63-70))
housing up to16075pm for CAPTs, 14325pm FOs
05/15
3% 9wks (edu 46-47.5/70-72.5)
OT thresh 92>88h
05/16
3% 5wks (Steps + for Snr Capts, flying pay ^ +,ground pay, sim pay)
05/17
0% (The email of "all group pay on hold - no target this year")
05/18
3% 5wks (reason for prof share - no target, therefore any profit had to be share per formula)
05/19
0% 0

The Group target for 2019/20 is 2.8bn. 2.3bn achieved in 2018/19

[slack]

Take any emirates pax say 100 and have them fly as paxs, NOT WORKING. Fly them long haul with associate fatigue factor for 2 months and ask them if they would feel safe flying emirates.

[777-200LR]

Let me quickly stop you there. Frontier airlines here in the U.S. didn't have a payrise since the 2005 bankruptcy. They only voted in a new contract 4 months ago...and that's with a union. Go read threads about Atlas Air; another U.S. outfit with a union and one of the lowest paid pilots in the Nation. They are currently in court regarding a new contract that was amenable back in 2016.

Air Canada has no step increases for the first 5 years for FOs, and the basic there is as good as the guys who ask you if you would like that meal large.

[Bindair Dundat]

Let me quickly stop you there. Frontier airlines here in the U.S. didn't have a payrise since the 2005 bankruptcy. They only voted in a new contract 4 months ago...and that's with a union. Go read threads about Atlas Air; another U.S. outfit with a union and one of the lowest paid pilots in the Nation. They are currently in court regarding a new contract that was amenable back in 2016.

Air Canada has no step increases for the first 5 years for FOs, and the basic there is as good as the guys who ask you if you would like that meal large.
So no use comparing these. The thing is, the EK package has eroded more significantly than any of the operators you site. Yes crap pay at most of those but always so. EK pilots fly their bags off for a continuously eroding package (like the last 10 years) and zero job protection. Any slip you’re gone, end of story. Add to that the extra stress of packing families across the globe to live in a fake Muslim wonderland and you can not compare the degree of contract erosion. It blows my mind that anyone can give EK even a passing nod of approval now.

[BigGeordie]

EK are supposed to be compensating us for living away from home in a climate that is really only fit for camels. Do not underestimate the costs and stresses of being thousands fo miles away from family and friends for possibly a couple of decades, especially as parents start getting older and more frail. Somewhere along the line Emirates appear to have forgotten that and believe their own PR to the extent they think people would actually rather be here than at home.

[felixthecat]

Let me quickly stop you there. Frontier airlines here in the U.S. didn't have a payrise since the 2005 bankruptcy. They only voted in a new contract 4 months ago...and that's with a union. Go read threads about Atlas Air; another U.S. outfit with a union and one of the lowest paid pilots in the Nation. They are currently in court regarding a new contract that was amenable back in 2016.

Air Canada has no step increases for the first 5 years for FOs, and the basic there is as good as the guys who ask you if you would like that meal large.

Let me quickly stop you there. ‘They voted in a new contract’ VOTED.....I see that going down well in the UAE with EK. ‘and that’s with a union’ ..... a union and rights, I can see a recurrent theme. They have the right to vote and they have a union, oh how I wish we had such a thing!

In EK you have no vote, you have no union, the only right you have is too, as we are often told ‘If you dont like it leave’. The airlines you quote are at home and your rights and options are far far in excess of anything you have in the UAE. You say they are in court disputing a contract, how many times have the terms and conditions been changed in EK with no right to the court and union option. You are comparing Apples to Pears

[Captain Sham]

Let me quickly stop you there. Frontier airlines here in the U.S. didn't have a payrise since the 2005 bankruptcy. They only voted in a new contract 4 months ago...and that's with a union. Go read threads about Atlas Air; another U.S. outfit with a union and one of the lowest paid pilots in the Nation. They are currently in court regarding a new contract that was amenable back in 2016.

Air Canada has no step increases for the first 5 years for FOs, and the basic there is as good as the guys who ask you if you would like that meal large. You have been misinformed about Air Canada. FOs and RPs are put on flat pay for their first 4 years. Year 1 is $54 500. There are significant step increases each year. Flat pay means everyone is paid the same rate irrespective of their equipment or position. The monthly salary is a 75hr guarantee. Work less and you are still paid for 75hrs. Work more and you are paid a premium. The bidding system works well. There are a significant amount of trips in open time every month for those who want to work more and make extra $. The best part is pilots flying narrow body types cannot be be rostered for more than 16 days a month but can volunteer to work more if they want. I left EK for Air Canada a couple of years ago and have not looked back once...

[Adam Barfy]

777-200LR.
Don’t bother trying to prove these guys/gals from EK wrong you will lose as you can see.



Still an EK wannabe AIMINGHIGH123?

Despite the plummeting entry standards, they still haven't taken you on yet?

[777-200LR]

777-200LR.
Don’t bother trying to prove these guys/gals from EK wrong you will lose as you can see.
Don't worry, since there are fewer of them now, they are not as loud.

No one here is approving EK management but to think that this is not happening industry wide is either naive or ignorant.


Atlas Air Prevails in Court Ruling Against Pilot Union for Illegal Slowdown
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/atlas-air-prevails-court-ruling-130000374.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=ma

Felixthepussycat,
Looks like even with their voting powers and union backing you talk of, its back to work and shut up. Not even a crash could get them a payrise. Now where have I heard that before??

[BigGeordie]

Do your time and get out.


The most sensible thing Aminghigh has ever written. Tragic, as it used to be a job you wanted to keep until you had to retire.

[fatbus]

Dubai is a very stressful environment to live and EK is a very stressful place to work. What I find disturbing is the number of guys planning on working til 65 !!! They ignore the warning signs that they are killing themselves.

[Pixy]

A comparison of which airline is the worse for cutting terms and conditions or which behavior towards their employees is more abhorrent etc., is futile without a detailed examination of many factors. No one has enough access to make an accurate assessment. Besides what is gained apart from perhaps a list of employers one should avoid?

The fact is that industry-wide the T&C have been radically eroded in the airline industry. And indeed in many other industries. The entire fabric of corporate behavior has changed, putting the interests of shareholders and executives in direct conflict with those of the employees with devastating social implications for the immediate stakeholders and indeed the public at large. The Boeing 737 Max fiasco is a glaring example. As the regulators are in the pockets of corporates it is therefore not surprising that they are not looking further afield to see how endemic this is in the entire industry, though with differing manifestations.

One only has to look at France Telecom whose executives are on trial for murder because of their systematic abuse of employees leading to 35 suicides, to see how far individuals will go to protect their bonuses. (See WSJ) And they had a union for all the use it was to the 35 driven to such desperation. Imagine the implications of this in the airline industry. Thankfully we are not there.

In our own sphere however, I feel that the pilots themselves must take some responsibility. One does not need a union to retain T&C and slow the erosion. Much is in the hands of the employees themselves if they are smart, professional and diligent. We have allowed ourselves to be manipulated and marginalized often without a murmur of dissent and in some cases with groups working in direct conflict to enable their employers to divide and conquer with ease.

Obviously many of us cannot directly confront the employers on an individual basis. But through small acts of sensibly based passive resistance we can demonstrate that some changes are simply not worth the trouble, some cleverly introduced erosion should be rescinded, or some historic assumptions should be reconsidered.

I am often amazed at pilots who come to work clearly sick or fatigued. When queried they express the opinion that they will be victimized for reporting unfit. In my experience that is unlikely unless they themselves have been abusing the system. Aside from that ,there are in fact many remedies to this.

Primarily, it is unprofessional and unfair to do this. Sickness, if genuine can be validated by medical practitioners giving the company a headache if this leads to disciplinary action. Many call in sick if they are in fact tired or fatigued. In my own company these are handled quite differently though most do not know the subtle differences. The company itself has skewed the process to muddy the waters. My company calls fatigue "sickness" using essentially the same rostering codes for the two. Ridiculous really, as they are not remotely the same thing. But convenient to hide the fatigue aspects in the sickness statistics from the regulator to prevent interference in ever increasing duty times.

One is either sick or fatigued, yet many will report sick when in fact they are fatigued, playing directly into the company’s agenda. These days the fatigue itself can often be validated with modern Apps, the model of which is exactly what the company FRMS itself uses. A good record of duties and appropriate screenshots would be enough to rebut any future queries. Insist on a printout from the company FRMS for future use.

In many instances, pilots avoid putting in fatigue reports when this occurs during a duty. Either through fear of reprisal or sheer laziness. Enough reports on the actual duties that are a step too far will soon see the company make changes. It always has. The managers do not want a trail of evidence leading to their inaction.

Pilots do not bother writing about the obvious abuses in duty times. One instance is likely to be ignored but a couple of hundred will not. This only represents a small percentage of the pilot contingent. Duty times before blocks off were extended to more realistic values through mass protest and some judicious use of media. We still have the same duty time after blocks on which falls way short of the reality. However it is seldom mentioned. I guarantee a few hundred polite emails on the inadequacy of these timings would see change. I can also be confident few have the skills or are too timorous to do this despite the fact they would not be victimized.

Pilots return from leave and fly compressed rosters, clearly fatigued in the process, without doing the right thing and using the tools available to avoid this happening. At the same time they allow themselves to be taken advantage of economically. Have they no self-worth at all?

If one does not take the time to logically, unemotionally and politely, put in writing the failures and dangers of the various systems that govern us, one can hardly be surprised when the management assume all is well and push the limits a bit harder. In many instances they actively encourage us to do this to have the data to show the executives in order to drive through the changes. Yet many do nothing. They might speak up at some forum which is nothing more than egotistical venting as there is no written trail so feared by the top.

No one has earned the right to comment on Pprune unless they have done all they can in their sphere to resist stupidity and officially document their objection to irrational and dangerous changes.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

[Emma Royds]

A good post Pixy but I feel I need to comment on one part though:

I am often amazed at pilots who come to work clearly sick or fatigued. When queried they express the opinion that they will be victimized for reporting unfit. In my experience that is unlikely unless they themselves have been abusing the system. Aside from that ,there are in fact many remedies to this.

Primarily, it is unprofessional and unfair to do this. Sickness, if genuine can be validated by medical practitioners giving the company a headache if this leads to disciplinary action.

Sickness that has been certified by an AME has in the past, been used as an excuse to delay a command course for an F/O. We have often heard about colleagues who are summoned for a 'chat' on the third floor about their certified sickness. When it comes to managing sickness, the company appear to be incredibly shortsighted and simply view the employee as being less productive than they should be, instead of initially considering exactly why the employee was marked sick.

[SOPS]

Sorry to hop in here., But Emma makes a very valid point.

Also Pixy.. I lost count of the wash ups I sat through with people complaining about rosters and fatigue, management furiously taking notes and saying ‘ things will be done’.. and nothing ever was.

I do agree with most of what you post Pixie.. however, I found this interesting, regarding the downward spiral of T and C world wide.

There is is an interesting conversation going on in the Oz forum regarding the new QF EBA. QF Shorthaul FOS are ( for what ever reason) posting actual payslips showing annual income above $200000 AUD. One Jetstar FO posted, that for 608 hours stick hours in the financial year, his gross was around $180000 AUD.

Im betting that ANY line pilot in EK that ‘ only flew ‘ 608 hours in a year, would be having a cup of hot water., no tea or biscuits.

i don’t think how many reports people write.. nothing will change. EK is determined, and has been for years now, to bleed their pilots dry, and then discard them.

( And I don’t believe what the EK package is now, even comes close to remnuerating the work a EK pilot does)

[FlyingOW]

A comparison of which airline is the worse for cutting terms and conditions or which behavior towards their employees is more abhorrent etc., is futile without a detailed examination of many factors. No one has enough access to make an accurate assessment. Besides what is gained apart from perhaps a list of employers one should avoid?

The fact is that industry-wide the T&C have been radically eroded in the airline industry. And indeed in many other industries. The entire fabric of corporate behavior has changed, putting the interests of shareholders and executives in direct conflict with those of the employees with devastating social implications for the immediate stakeholders and indeed the public at large. The Boeing 737 Max fiasco is a glaring example. As the regulators are in the pockets of corporates it is therefore not surprising that they are not looking further afield to see how endemic this is in the entire industry, though with differing manifestations.

One only has to look at France Telecom whose executives are on trial for murder because of their systematic abuse of employees leading to 35 suicides, to see how far individuals will go to protect their bonuses. (See WSJ) And they had a union for all the use it was to the 35 driven to such desperation. Imagine the implications of this in the airline industry. Thankfully we are not there.

In our own sphere however, I feel that the pilots themselves must take some responsibility. One does not need a union to retain T&C and slow the erosion. Much is in the hands of the employees themselves if they are smart, professional and diligent. We have allowed ourselves to be manipulated and marginalized often without a murmur of dissent and in some cases with groups working in direct conflict to enable their employers to divide and conquer with ease.

Obviously many of us cannot directly confront the employers on an individual basis. But through small acts of sensibly based passive resistance we can demonstrate that some changes are simply not worth the trouble, some cleverly introduced erosion should be rescinded, or some historic assumptions should be reconsidered.

I am often amazed at pilots who come to work clearly sick or fatigued. When queried they express the opinion that they will be victimized for reporting unfit. In my experience that is unlikely unless they themselves have been abusing the system. Aside from that ,there are in fact many remedies to this.

Primarily, it is unprofessional and unfair to do this. Sickness, if genuine can be validated by medical practitioners giving the company a headache if this leads to disciplinary action. Many call in sick if they are in fact tired or fatigued. In my own company these are handled quite differently though most do not know the subtle differences. The company itself has skewed the process to muddy the waters. My company calls fatigue "sickness" using essentially the same rostering codes for the two. Ridiculous really, as they are not remotely the same thing. But convenient to hide the fatigue aspects in the sickness statistics from the regulator to prevent interference in ever increasing duty times.

One is either sick or fatigued, yet many will report sick when in fact they are fatigued, playing directly into the company’s agenda. These days the fatigue itself can often be validated with modern Apps, the model of which is exactly what the company FRMS itself uses. A good record of duties and appropriate screenshots would be enough to rebut any future queries. Insist on a printout from the company FRMS for future use.

In many instances, pilots avoid putting in fatigue reports when this occurs during a duty. Either through fear of reprisal or sheer laziness. Enough reports on the actual duties that are a step too far will soon see the company make changes. It always has. The managers do not want a trail of evidence leading to their inaction.

Pilots do not bother writing about the obvious abuses in duty times. One instance is likely to be ignored but a couple of hundred will not. This only represents a small percentage of the pilot contingent. Duty times before blocks off were extended to more realistic values through mass protest and some judicious use of media. We still have the same duty time after blocks on which falls way short of the reality. However it is seldom mentioned. I guarantee a few hundred polite emails on the inadequacy of these timings would see change. I can also be confident few have the skills or are too timorous to do this despite the fact they would not be victimized.

Pilots return from leave and fly compressed rosters, clearly fatigued in the process, without doing the right thing and using the tools available to avoid this happening. At the same time they allow themselves to be taken advantage of economically. Have they no self-worth at all?

If one does not take the time to logically, unemotionally and politely, put in writing the failures and dangers of the various systems that govern us, one can hardly be surprised when the management assume all is well and push the limits a bit harder. In many instances they actively encourage us to do this to have the data to show the executives in order to drive through the changes. Yet many do nothing. They might speak up at some forum which is nothing more than egotistical venting as there is no written trail so feared by the top.

No one has earned the right to comment on Pprune unless they have done all they can in their sphere to resist stupidity and officially document their objection to irrational and dangerous changes.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Nail, head!

We are our own worst enemy.

OW

[fliion]

Beware boys and girls, a certain powerful lady on the third floor examines fatigue related reports, checks for roster swaps before and after - and if any time of rest was infringed due swap - regardless of relevance, is threatening to remove swap function from said pilot. Sly tactics.

As to disciplinary action to those who have been ordered not to fly by an AME (delayed upgrade, harassment meetiing etc)...karma will visit this third floor with such a hammer blow ...when the inevitable crash comes.

And I and many others will become willing consultants for plaintiffs lawyers, foreign CAA’s, victims families...you name it.

The onion will be peeled ...just wait.

Unfortunately death will be the elixir.

[MaverickPrime]

Decline in T&Cs goes much wider than aviation. I remember in the early 2000s, my dad was a police constable at the top of his scale earning £42k. My mum was a clerical worker earning £20k on a part time NHS contract; that’s the equivalent of £67k and £32k respectively in today’s money.

Today the top of the police constable scale is £38k and a full time clerical worker in the NHS still earns £20k max. Leave allocation has reduced and final salary pensions are gone.

There are a lot of reasons for the pathetic levels remuneration across the developed world today; corporate & individual greed, increasing population & reducing workforce, over regulation, decline of the west... the list is endless and I think the snowball has got too big to stop.

I fear the only way to succeed in life is to plot your own career path, accept that there will be many twists and turns in your life, accept that you cannot rely on any single organisation to provide you with a living and just make the most of what life throws at you.

Its a brave new new world we live in, those who succeed will be those who can adapt. Sitting around looking back into the past with rose tinted glasses is not going to get you anywhere.

[whatsyourbeef]

Beware boys and girls, a certain powerful lady on the third floor examines fatigue related reports, checks for roster swaps before and after - and if any time of rest was infringed due swap - regardless of relevance, is threatening to remove swap function from said pilot. Sly tactics.

Hang on can you explain that one to me?

Correct me if I’m wrong - you’re saying that a pilot swaps into “fatiguing duties” and then puts in a fatigue report and is surprised that the company objects?

If I’ve understood this correctly then it’s reasonable to assume that this would happen anywhere because clearly the individual concerned is taking the piss.

[fliion]

Take a deep breath ‘whatsyour beef’ and read what I wrote again.

Where did I write swaps into fatiguing duties?

Keep up

[whatsyourbeef]

Take a deep breath ‘whatsyour beef’ and read what I wrote again.

Where did I write swaps into fatiguing duties?

Keep up


No need to be rude champ. I asked for your clarification.

You said “if any time of rest is infringed due swap”. So what does this mean then? Have you swapped into a duty that infringes on your rest period(s) or not?

[Emma Royds]

The swap system is fully automated and uses FTL criteria plus a company created buffer for rest periods and flying hour limits. Therefore any swap that is made, will be comfortably within FTL limits. I think my colleague is trying to highlight a scenario when a swap is made, that simply reduces your rest period.

[whatsyourbeef]

The swap system is fully automated and uses FTL criteria plus a company created buffer for rest periods and flying hour limits. Therefore any swap that is made, will be comfortably within FTL limits. I think my colleague is trying to highlight a scenario when a swap is made, that simply reduces your rest period.

Thanks, that's clear.

I'm not sure where I sit on that one then. I can see both sides of the argument.

Cheers.

[felixthecat]

Fatigue isn’t a one off thing, that is tiredness. Fatigue is cumulative, and if the swaps are within the FTL program and your reporting fatigue then the system is broken. The flight crew are fatigued due to long term cumulatively fatiguing rosters and this is the problem, not a swap here and there within FTL’s to make a roster slightly more bearable.

[KippaLippa]

All good.
loads of money.
Happiness everywhere.
Carry on.

Regards,

Kippalippa

[fliion]

Fatigue isn’t a one off thing, that is tiredness. Fatigue is cumulative, and if the swaps are within the FTL program and your reporting fatigue then the system is broken. The flight crew are fatigued due to long term cumulatively fatiguing rosters and this is the problem, not a swap here and there within FTL’s to make a roster slightly more bearable.

Felix gets it. It’s not the swapping around a trip that causes a trip or you to be fatiguing - as the FTL system should prevent that - yet they will threaten you with swap removal to stem the report flow. It’s a cynical tactic

[cerbus]

No one here is approving EK management but to think that this is not happening industry wide is either naive or ignorant.


Yet by you you staying at EK you ARE approving of management actions towards its pilots. You are part of the problem.
I might be ignorant at times but to suggest this is happening worldwide is off base. Delta is demanding a 30% raise in their opener and this on top of their Industry leading pay rates to say nothing of their contract terms.
AA and QF will get nice raises too in the immediate future.
You are what you demand.

[Emma Royds]

Yet by you you staying at EK you ARE approving of management actions towards its pilots. You are part of the problem.
I might be ignorant at times but to suggest this is happening worldwide is off base. Delta is demanding a 30% raise in their opener and this on top of their Industry leading pay rates to say nothing of their contract terms.
AA and QF will get nice raises too in the immediate future.
You are what you demand.


Not wanting to be seen to defend the company, since stagnant terms and conditions are a concern for us all at EK but if I may put your example into context Cerbus, QF, AA and DL all declared operating margins close to four times the size of what EK posted a few months ago in their 2018-2019 results (2.7%).

To those reading this and thinking of joining, bear in mind that EK is no longer the lean and efficient money making machine it used to be. You must take into account the very real possibility that future improvements to the remuneration package may be infrequent in nature, against a backdrop of increasing living costs in what is already an expensive place to live.

[cerbus]

Not wanting to be seen to defend the company, since stagnant terms and conditions are a concern for us all at EK but if I may put your example into context Cerbus, QF, AA and DL all declared operating margins close to four times the size of what EK posted a few months ago in their 2018-2019 results (2.7%).


Why shouldn’t we expect, hell demand what DL 777 pilots are getting or QF 380 pilots are receiving? A lot of the same routes with the same equipment.
Just because our margins have shrunk is not our fault. It’s marketing and commercial fault and we shouldn’t have to suffer. I know we suffer big time but it has to end.

[777boyo]

Cerbus - in the late '90's and possibly into the 2000's, the EK pilot salary scales were set by a comparison with the salary scales of a "basket" of other, what might be called for the purpose, "top tier" carriers. I believe there were five in the basket, and included BA, CX and SQ, if my recall is correct. I don't recall when that comparison exercise was dropped, if indeed it was, or if/when the component airlines of the basket changed, but I do remember the whole exercise gradually became much less transparent to the pilots after GJ retired as GM Flight Ops (or whatever the title was back then).
7B

[Three Wire]

the fifth was QF

[Neektu]

Decline in T&Cs goes much wider than aviation. I remember in the early 2000s, my dad was a police constable at the top of his scale earning £42k. My mum was a clerical worker earning £20k on a part time NHS contract; that’s the equivalent of £67k and £32k respectively in today’s money.

Today the top of the police constable scale is £38k and a full time clerical worker in the NHS still earns £20k max. Leave allocation has reduced and final salary pensions are gone.

There are a lot of reasons for the pathetic levels remuneration across the developed world today; corporate & individual greed, increasing population & reducing workforce, over regulation, decline of the west... the list is endless and I think the snowball has got too big to stop.

I fear the only way to succeed in life is to plot your own career path, accept that there will be many twists and turns in your life, accept that you cannot rely on any single organisation to provide you with a living and just make the most of what life throws at you.

Its a brave new new world we live in, those who succeed will be those who can adapt. Sitting around looking back into the past with rose tinted glasses is not going to get you anywhere.

Very well stated; wise advise

[fatbus]

Not to mention that no one at EK would have the seniority to hold LHS Delta 777 or Qantas 380. Just because you fly the same AC does not qualify for the same pay. HY Fly 380 same as BA 380 ?

[aviation_enthus]

Yet by you you staying at EK you ARE approving of management actions towards its pilots. You are part of the problem.
I might be ignorant at times but to suggest this is happening worldwide is off base. Delta is demanding a 30% raise in their opener and this on top of their Industry leading pay rates to say nothing of their contract terms.
AA and QF will get nice raises too in the immediate future.
You are what you demand.

All well and good to say this BUT not everyone can work at Delta, AA or QF. My first choice was QF, I’d argue it’s the top of the pile in OZ and pretty much every pilot that starts out aims for the top. If I’d been offered a QF gig, I’d be there. But I wasn’t, so EK was the next best choice.

Its not realistic to expect everyone to walk away from a job like EK because ‘I should be working for a legacy, I deserve better’. Want we all want and what is available/given are two VERY different things.

Despite what you may think, EK is still attractive to many pilots around the world. Even with the lack of payrises, the money is still reasonable in comparison to what is on offer elsewhere. The trade off is obviously how hard we all work and the lack of normal employee protections most of us enjoy back home.

I’m not ‘pro EK management’ before you try and paint me with this brush. Just realistic. Plus this idea that we should all be working for the best and screw the rest, pisses me off. Everyone takes the best option available to them at the time.

[K1000]

All well and good to say this BUT not everyone can work at Delta, AA or QF. My first choice was QF, I’d argue it’s the top of the pile in OZ and pretty much every pilot that starts out aims for the top. If I’d been offered a QF gig, I’d be there. But I wasn’t, so EK was the next best choice.

Its not realistic to expect everyone to walk away from a job like EK because ‘I should be working for a legacy, I deserve better’. Want we all want and what is available/given are two VERY different things.

Despite what you may think, EK is still attractive to many pilots around the world. Even with the lack of payrises, the money is still reasonable in comparison to what is on offer elsewhere. The trade off is obviously how hard we all work and the lack of normal employee protections most of us enjoy back home.

I’m not ‘pro EK management’ before you try and paint me with this brush. Just realistic. Plus this idea that we should all be working for the best and screw the rest, pisses me off. Everyone takes the best option available to them at the time.

I agree with you.

Times have change and being a pilot is not what it used to be years ago. Many years ago landing a Job at a decent airline was hard, nowadays there are plenty of options but quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality. Pilots are stuck in the old mentalities where we want to work less for more, sorry gentleman but that is over. If being a pilot and the salaries you are getting aren't enough nowadays then I guess is time to look for a career change. Even if pilots would be put to work less they would still complaint. I am not in favor of any company I am just realistic on what the market is and what it has to offer and unless you can work in legacy airlines with good benefits which by the way they are very few of those, we are stuck with what we have because.

Everywhere you want to fly you are expected to be productive, that is the new TERM. Theres no perfect job and there will never be one specially nowadays.

[Captain Z]

Hi Guys! Ive always been curious about Emirates and the pay. How do you guys get paid? Hourly? Salary? Contract? Do you have yearly raises or do you negotiate for them? Is the company good about giving them out? What does the pilot group do to achieve higher rates?

Also the rumor is that bunk time does not count for block hour limitations. Do pilots call in Fatique or is there an issue?

I, for one, have always thought of DXB a nice place to be, albeit hot. Can an expat buy a house there?

Thanks in advance!

[fatbus]

Bunk time paid yes FTL no
fatigue plenty but very few report in fear of fleet
pay 90/10 salary/ hourly
contract not worth the paper it's written on
buy property yes but buyer beware !!!!!
schools good
dubai a nice place , NOT, mentally and physically draining . Unless single and only want CC . Burn out quickly, hence the attrition which is never reported correctly.

[cerbus]

So if we can't compare Delta or Qantas to us how do we measure ourselves? I know not very well but under your metrics we should never leave because we will take a pay cut.

[SOPS]

Hi Guys! Ive always been curious about Emirates and the pay. How do you guys get paid? Hourly? Salary? Contract? Do you have yearly raises or do you negotiate for them? Is the company good about giving them out? What does the pilot group do to achieve higher rates?

Also the rumor is that bunk time does not count for block hour limitations. Do pilots call in Fatique or is there an issue?

I, for one, have always thought of DXB a nice place to be, albeit hot. Can an expat buy a house there?

Thanks in advance!

Negotiate? Pilot Group? Those two words alone could see you inside a prison.

is the company good at giving out pay rises? Now that’s just funny.

[fatbus]

Cereus ? Sorry that makes no sense. Compare to other carriers, look at other similar " expat " airlines .

[The Outlaw]

Cereus ? Sorry that makes no sense. Compare to other carriers, look at other similar " expat " airlines .

Some Chinese carriers are paying an excess of USD 24,000 per month after tax which is far more than EK with all the extra's. Let's not start with the "yes but its China" argument since these are "expat" airlines as well. Why shouldn't the EK pilots compare their salaries to legacy American carriers? Emirates management have for years gone on record saying they just do things better, so why not the pay?

Of course EK management want to compare their pay scales with those of lowest LCC's and why not? They have "the shareholder" (also known as the ruler of Dubai, or "government" ) to pay.

All in all it is a moot point in reality. EK will continue to attract young pilots with the desire to fly shiny wide body jets to far away places. They will be hired, trained and used until they burn out then will be replaced with a new serviceable unit. Since EK hires from the GLOBAL pool of pilots, the supply is effectively endless and will continue to be so.

Of course, ( to coin the utterance of "Alan The Great", if you don't like it then leave........for now.

[fliion]

Not even asking for comparable Legacy carrier pay - simply step.

What the ‘be happy it’s a decent job’ young gun crowd fail to grasp is that in a very quick 10 years - you will be down 30-40% yet fully vested in DXB due kids in school, possible wife career - with the prospect of having to start again somewhere else in order to work for employer that actually keeps up. All while our employer has made billions over the last ten years.

Comparing US legacies to here is ascinine - you have a Union, we have a jail cell.

[SOPS]

I agree with you.

Times have change and being a pilot is not what it used to be years ago. Many years ago landing a Job at a decent airline was hard, nowadays there are plenty of options but quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality. Pilots are stuck in the old mentalities where we want to work less for more, sorry gentleman but that is over. If being a pilot and the salaries you are getting aren't enough nowadays then I guess is time to look for a career change. Even if pilots would be put to work less they would still complaint. I am not in favor of any company I am just realistic on what the market is and what it has to offer and unless you can work in legacy airlines with good benefits which by the way they are very few of those, we are stuck with what we have because.

Everywhere you want to fly you are expected to be productive, that is the new TERM. Theres no perfect job and there will never be one specially nowadays.


And the above comment is why the entire industry is on a race to the bottom... “ it’s not going to get better, just accept it’s going to get worse, shut up and get on with it’ .. while those at the top get more and more. Is the CEO of Qantas really worth 23 mill a year? IMHO.. he’s not.

And those at the top in EK continue taking untold riches while constantly eroding the conditions for those at the coal face. While all the new young pilots say.. it’s ok, the jets are big and shiny and the girls are cute. 😤😤

[JAARule]

it’s ok, the jets are big and shiny and the girls are cute.
What's wrong with that? If they are happy to pay with soul and health for as long as they can hack it, take the endorsement, command hours and as much money and poon as they can get, then good luck to them. EK deserves no better. Look at the housing rental scene, arabs would rather leave a place vacant than reduce the rent to market value. Same at EK and things will never change, no matter how tight it gets for the company, so pilots may as well take what they can get until it no longer suits them. A lot of pilots here seem to struggle with the fact that they are lied to so much. If they accept that most of what they're told re contract and conditions (and life in general) is probably bull**** and won't change, and adjust their outlooks and long-term plans accordingly, then they might sleep easier and be happier. EK is an excellent training system for better jobs elsewhere if and when they come up.

[FlyingOW]

A lot of pilots here seem to struggle with the fact that they are lied to so much. If they accept that most of what they're told re contract and conditions (and life in general) is probably bull**** and won't change, and adjust their outlooks and long-term plans accordingly, then they might sleep easier and be happier.

Probably the best advice I’ve seen here. Applies to all expat gigs. And it needed saying.

OW

[Neptune Spear]

I wish the dribble of how bad it is Everywhere would stop. Some airlines suck for sure and EK heads up this forum for very good reasons but it is not awful everywhere.
I left Emirates for greener pastures (much greener) and my new airline is asking for a 30% pay raise and will probably get something close to that in addition to a 25% retirement contribution. LH, BA and Qantas will also do well in the months to come.
If you set your sights low you won't get much. If you demand more you will get more. There is a worldwide pilot shortage so now is the time to take advantage of this situation that has not existed for probably 40 years.
Low pay and lot's of flying hours is not the best way for prosperity, at least not for pilots.

[kungfu panda]

I wish the dribble of how bad it is Everywhere would stop. Some airlines suck for sure and EK heads up this forum for very good reasons but it is not awful everywhere.
I left Emirates for greener pastures (much greener) and my new airline is asking for a 30% pay raise and will probably get something close to that in addition to a 25% retirement contribution. LH, BA and Qantas will also do well in the months to come.
If you set your sights low you won't get much. If you demand more you will get more. There is a worldwide pilot shortage so now is the time to take advantage of this situation that has not existed for probably 40 years.
Low pay and lot's of flying hours is not the best way for prosperity, at least not for pilots.


"Worldwide Pilot shortage".....Don't make me laugh....even Ryanair have stopped recruiting.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

STC has stated another 2-3 years to get the airline back on track. Wouldn’t expect any raise until that time...

[Jack D]

STC has stated another 2-3 years to get the airline back on track. Wouldn’t expect any raise until that time...


Hmmmm ! Back on track .. ? does that mean it’s “ off track “

[Kamelchaser]

"back on track in 2-3 years"? Not likely. Until EK can reduce its 380 fleet to a size that can at least break even, and until newer aircraft can make routes profitable again, EK is in dire straights. Don't expect to see real profit again for nearly a decade until the 380 fleet gets back to something like 40 aircraft.

The only reason EK has kept its head above water for the past few years is because they've made huge amounts of money from buying big fleets of aircraft at bargain basement prices, and on-selling individual airframes to leasing companies for a hefty profit...my estimate..around a billion dollars a year from on selling airframes to leasing companies. That gig is all but finished, at least for the 380, given the lack of any residual value for that aircraft at the end of a lease. Who wants a second hand A380? Without the subsidies provided by that scheme, the 380 has to stand on its own. Hence one of the main reasons for EK's massive drop in profits over the past year or two.

[JAARule]

What the ‘be happy it’s a decent job’ young gun crowd fail to grasp is that in a very quick 10 years - you will be down 30-40% yet fully vested in DXB due kids in school, possible wife career - with the prospect of having to start again somewhere else in order to work for employer that actually keeps up. All while our employer has made billions over the last ten years.

Comparing US legacies to here is ascinine - you have a Union, we have a jail cell.
Bollocks. Wife with a career, kids' school 90% covered, getting paid an unimproved but still substantial EK salary while building the hours needed for when he decides to leave later.. and you think that's a bad thing? What planet are you on?

Jail cell? Have you been locked up for something??

[fatbus]

Teacher, doctor, dentist, hygienist,lawyer , business owner just to mention a few.

[de facto]

Father always told me , if you dont like the food in your plate, change restaurant.
Applies to many aspects of one’s life...including employer🤸*♂️🙏🏻

[SaulGoodman]

Father always told me , if you dont like the food in your plate, change restaurant.
Applies to many aspects of one’s life...including employer🤸*♂️🙏🏻

I do agree with you. BUT: in a “free” country with a unionised workforce you could actually demand to “change the menu”. If you work for EK however, it is Shish Tawook every effin day of the rest of your career.

[harry the cod]

Saul

Let's see how BA pilots get on over the next few months with their 'demand'.

UK based and with an apparently strong union, this benchmark airline has seen it's own T&C's eroded over the years. If you'd asked one of the senior pilots 10 years ago that in a decades time he'd be without a final salary pension and no bidline system, he'd have laughed in your face.

Times are forever changing and I wish the pilots well in their fight to preserve a fair wage. Sadly, there will be little sympathy for those pilots. How can the average Joe show empathy to a pilot strike, with senior Captains already earning 200K a year according to the Daily Mail? Difficult, when he's on 50K (almost double national average still!) and his family are stuck in a crowded terminal not going anywhere. Of course, the irony of then paying every other week the best part of 100 quid to watch his premiership team is lost on him, given the players are also pulling in two hundred grand....a week!

Which boils down to one simple thing. Supply and demand. Isn't that what this conversation is really all about?

Harry

[SaulGoodman]

At least they have a union and a legal system where one is allowed to hold industrial action. If you join EK you have very little rights. You know that when you join. No union that will help you if you have an incident. I really cannot understand why in this day and age you will join/stay the likes of EK or QR.

the final pension scheme is not relevant here. That also depends on life expectancy and demographics. Or are you of the opinion to putt the burden on the younger generations? I do not know the situation in BA but in other companies it was not sustainable.

[Pif Paf]

If you join EK you have very little rights. You know that when you join. No union that will help you if you have an incident. I really cannot understand why in this day and age you will join/stay the likes of EK or QR.

the final pension scheme is not relevant here.
Yes - No rights at all.......but people forget this when they see the big shiny aircraft
Pensions - Locals get final salary pension scheme and early retirement but this is generally not talked about - expats don't!

[fatbus]

Already worried about total pension payouts , it was 15 years now extended to 20 for the 75% of salary. Wait to see the current court case in the U.K. And the amount of money payed out. Dubai debt getting bigger and bigger.

[fliion]

Bollocks. Wife with a career, kids' school 90% covered, getting paid an unimproved but still substantial EK salary while building the hours needed for when he decides to leave later.. and you think that's a bad thing? What planet are you on?

Jail cell? Have you been locked up for something??

ah good ole JAArule ...point missed, again ...you are consistent to be fair

[LHR Rain]

Saul

Let's see how BA pilots get on over the next few months with their 'demand'.

UK based and with an apparently strong union, this benchmark airline has seen it's own T&C's eroded over the years. If you'd asked one of the senior pilots 10 years ago that in a decades time he'd be without a final salary pension and no bidline system, he'd have laughed in your face.

Times are forever changing and I wish the pilots well in their fight to preserve a fair wage. Sadly, there will be little sympathy for those pilots. How can the average Joe show empathy to a pilot strike, with senior Captains already earning 200K a year according to the Daily Mail? Difficult, when he's on 50K (almost double national average still!) and his family are stuck in a crowded terminal not going anywhere. Of course, the irony of then paying every other week the best part of 100 quid to watch his premiership team is lost on him, given the players are also pulling in two hundred grand....a week!

Which boils down to one simple thing. Supply and demand. Isn't that what this conversation is really all about?

Harry


It all comes down to what we are worth and it is definitely what we are currently paid. Pilots at supposedly "inferior" airlines are engaging in Job Actions this summer for better T&Cs and what are we doing, defending the company and telling everyone it is not that bad or telling ourselves that. We are a joke. What International pilot makes less than us? I know there are some but not many. It is time to get paid what we are worth instead of this race to the Bottom mentality. Even Ryanair is flexing some of their muscle in the weeks to come. Not us.
On a side note it is good to have you back Harry. I'm glad you didn't go to Easy Jet even though you are probably regretting that decision now.

[Emma Royds]

It is time to get paid what we are worth instead of this race to the Bottom mentality. Even Ryanair is flexing some of their muscle in the weeks to come. Not us.

How do you suggest we as EK pilots go about doing this? Flexing muscle in this part of the world only earns you stay at the Al-Awir 'hotel'!!! :}

[JAARule]

ah good ole JAArule ...point missed, again ...you are consistent to be fair




No, I can see the point you thought you were trying to make but it has no substance beyond melodramatic sensation. We all know unions are illegal in UAE. You know it - so why haven't you left? If you didn't know it before you joined you should've done a modicum of homework.

What it's really about is attempting to further your own cause by convincing enough other pilots not to join that things will somehow improve for you. Not only has the last decade or more clearly demonstrated that this in the realms of fantasy but you're trying to convince others that they are incapable of managing their finances, kids' school provision, wife's career path, etc - ie Life. That's either arrogance talking or you're applying your own poor experience to everyone else's capabilities. What you don't or won't understand is that guys don't leave because whatever they'd be going to is not as good as what they have at EK. When the overall balance tips, then they leave. Obviously your situation is better at EK because you haven't left.

Berating people for thinking like you did and still do is hypocritical. Or are you one of these guys who says it only went downhill after you joined?

[cerbus]

Berating people for thinking like you did and still do is hypocritical. Or are you one of these guys who says it only went downhill after you joined?

EK most definitely went downhill after all of us have joined because this airline never gets better, only worse. Everyone knows this and that is probably the reason why you left as well. Smart man for sure!
On your point about Unions though... even if they were legal in the UAE there is no way the pilots at Emirates would fight for better pay and conditions let alone to have the airline just honour their contract. They are not that kind of pilots.
As you wrote most came here and received better pay and they get to fly a Widebody. What a deal, there is no way they are going to rock the boat and that is why we are paid the way we are and treated like dogs.
This is such an awful company but in their race to bottom they have attracted and hired pilots that think this is a good deal. Hence our condition. Don't expect anything good to come anytime soon.

[SaulGoodman]

What you don't or won't understand is that guys don't leave because whatever they'd be going to is not as good as what they have at EK.

Guys join EK for the money and the relatively fast upgrade. Once they are close to the upgrade they do not want to give it up and once they are in the left seat they only want to stay in the left seat. That leaves, in Europe at least, only second tier companies to go to like Norwegian or Ryanair etc. if you are in your mid thirties just swallow your pride and try to join a “career” airline on the bottom of the list. I did that and I believe I made the right choice although I have had my doubts. My mates in EK are always complaining but don’t want to give up the nett take home pay or their commands. In a way we as pilots are our own worst enemies...

[fliion]

!No, I can see the point you thought you were trying to make but it has no substance beyond melodramatic sensation. We all know unions are illegal in UAE. You know it - so why haven't you left? If you didn't know it before you joined you should've done a modicum of homework.

What it's really about is attempting to further your own cause by convincing enough other pilots not to join that things will somehow improve for you. Not only has the last decade or more clearly demonstrated that this in the realms of fantasy but you're trying to convince others that they are incapable of managing their finances, kids' school provision, wife's career path, etc - ie Life. That's either arrogance talking or you're applying your own poor experience to everyone else's capabilities. What you don't or won't understand is that guys don't leave because whatever they'd be going to is not as good as what they have at EK. When the overall balance tips, then they leave. Obviously your situation is better at EK because you haven't left.

Berating people for thinking like you did and still do is hypocritical. Or are you one of these guys who says it only went downhill after you joined?

VERY consistent!

(but thanks for taking the time and effort - to cleanse your hit nerve- gives me a chuckle ��)