Qantas pilot academy - latest rejection

[TempoTCu]

I received the "thanks but no thanks" email from the first round of applicants to the Qantas pilot academy last week. Of course I am disappointed but I'm really seeking some advice to learn from this. I am becoming miffed as to why I continue to be rejected at the first round of cuts for all cadetship/academy applications.

I applied for the 2017 Virgin cadetship at 0 hours flight time and was rejected at first round.
I applied for the 2018 Virgin cadetship at 30 hours flight time and was rejected first round.
I applied for the 2019 Qantas pilot academy at 60 hours flight time and was rejected first round.

The only other details both organisations have about me are that I am in my late 30s with two university degrees and am male. I have expressed a very strong desire to change careers and finally engage in the career I've always wanted to do rather than the career that everyone else has expected me to do. There is literally no other job I can possibly see myself doing that I would enjoy, and be fully engaged in, other than career pilot.

There is no other pertinent data about me that I have provided to either organisation. Can anyone provide some advice on what the airlines are looking for? I cant seem to work it out. TIA.

[aroa]

These's a lot more flying satisfaction and fun out there, other than just the biggies.

[27/09]

Why are you so fixated on going down the "Academy" route?

It would seem you have been able to independently finance your training up till now. Why not continue down that path?

[Jenna Talia]

and am male

You've answered your own question.

[BuzzBox]

TempoTCu:

I suspect the airlines are looking for cadets aged around 18-25, so your age probably doesn't help your case. There's also a push for more female cadets; Qantas and Virgin have announced they are aiming for a 50-50 gender split in their cadet recruitment. Virgin exceeded that with their 2018 intake, where 9 out of 16 recruits were female. My guess is they've had far more applications than there are places available and that applicants who don't fit the right 'demographic' are automatically rejected.

[Squawk7700]

60 hours in your late 30’s doesn’t sound like you “really want it.” It the same when joining the defence force. They want you to come to them on the brink of bankruptcy having worked 3 jobs at the same time so scrimp and save every spare dollar for flying lessons.

Your story sounds more like you got a degree or two, didn’t like it and then just moved on. What’s stopping you starting and have them spending a lot of cash on you and you just change your mind and move on?

Try getting a job at that age with Airservices as an ATC too... you won’t be able to, unless you meet very specific requirements around eduction which which are not made to look age related.

[mcoates]

Why not contact them regarding your rejection letter and explain yourself exactly as you have done on the first post and ask them the reasons why. At least this way you can stop guessing and stop feeling inadequate, if you have the real reasons you can then make some more accurate decisions. I don't think they would be against telling you why you were rejected especially if you put your questions like you have in your first post. Good luck

[machtuk]

I do feel for you but to be frank yr age would be the biggest stumbling block for the cadetships. Late 30's say 38 for Eg means you are well behind the 8 ball there sadly:-( I started late commercially (30 yrs old) & back then I was considered way too old but I persevered and changed trains ending up fly with the Airlines anyway, just went about it differently:-)
As much as you must be disillusioned plenty before you have ridden the same sad train but that doesn't mean your train journey need come to an abrupt end, change trains & ride it to another proposed destination:-)
Good luck, there's only one thing you need to succeed (other than LOTS of cash) is determination, that's free!:-)

[TempoTCu]

So the underlying suggestion is age and gender are preventing me from progressing. The very two things that are supposed to be "protected" under Australian employment law. I am reluctant to accept that. If there are any airline HR people lurking here please feel free to comment. mcoates , I have tried contacting VF and Cobham (to who I also applied to their cadetship) previously and could not find someone who would respond meaningfully to my enquiry.

For the record, I have self funded my training to date (which I only started 18 months ago) by working two jobs whilst funding a mortgage, a marriage, and raising children - so I know a thing or two about "scrimping and saving" and I think my situation adequately demonstrates my intention and commitment to this new career if I were at least given an opportunity to express this to any recruiter.

I am not seeking training in a cadetship or academy exclusively, its just that I know how competitive the industry is so I want to apply for everything, and if I get anything I'll be thrilled. I am continuing to self fund and fly part time and slowly hour build. It is not ideal but it is the the only way I can progress in my current fiscal situation. I am thoroughly enjoying every second in the cockpit so if I could accelerate my training I would. I am not pinning all my hopes and dreams on being a flagship airline pilot. I would be equally as thrilled with any pilot job in a full time capacity that meets my current cost of living. Thanks for all the comments, I'll never give up I am just using every means possible to obtain as much information and feedback as possible to make me the best I can be.

[Squawk7700]

For age discrimination complaints you would contact the Human Rights Commission. They have no powers though, as they can only mediate and run a conciliation session, even if it is blatantly obvious that age discrimination is taking place. If the employer says get lost, there is nothing further they can do and the employer is not obliged to even respond.

Then you have to find your own lawyer and request a hearing at your local courthouse. If you lose, you run the risk of costs being awarded against you, not to mention your own costs.

Law firms do not to “no win, no fee” pro bono for human rights cases, so you’re on your own with the costs.

In summary, don’t try and go down that path as you won’t get anywhere !

[ersa]

Your age 100% they want early 20’s

[Malakor1]

60 hours in your late 30’s doesn’t sound like you “really want it.” It the same when joining the defence force. They want you to come to them on the brink of bankruptcy having worked 3 jobs at the same time"


I disagree with that, it's not been my experience that this is the case, especially with the ADF. If anything the ADF would prefer minimal to modest hours so they can mould you into shape.

I think to go down the line of age discrimination is quite severe. To not be offered a position does not automatically mean they're discriminating against you, that implies hands down you are the ultimate candidate? Maybe you're not presenting as well as you think?

Either way, I applied for a cadetship years ago for REX, and I thought I was a shoe in, didn't get it in the end and it was the best that that never happened to me!

[B2N2]

Age discrimination?
What about being 59 and having 60 hrs and applying?
Is that different?
Stop digging a hole for yourself running in circles.
You’re a teen trying to enroll in kindergarten.
Being an adult and having financial responsibilities and dependents.
If they accept you and you quit your job and tank training then what?
Employers are well within their rights to select as they see fit.

Those who pay, choose

[TimmyTee]

Age:
Gender:

you answered incorrectly unfortunately.

[BuzzBox]

So the underlying suggestion is age and gender are preventing me from progressing. The very two things that are supposed to be "protected" under Australian employment law. I am reluctant to accept that. If there are any airline HR people lurking here please feel free to comment. mcoates , I have tried contacting VF and Cobham (to who I also applied to their cadetship) previously and could not find someone who would respond meaningfully to my enquiry.

Age and gender related discrimination might be 'protected' under Australian law, but it still occurs in workplaces all over Australia. It goes without saying that no prospective employer would ever admit to such practices. If you believe you have a case, then you have every right to make a complaint to the Australian Human Rights Commission:
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/age-discrimination/publications/know-your-rights-age-discrimination-2012

[Squawk7700]

Age and gender related discrimination might be 'protected' under Australian law, but it still occurs in workplaces all over Australia. It goes without saying that no prospective employer would ever admit to such practices. If you believe you have a case, then you have every right to make a complaint to the Australian Human Rights Commission:
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/age-discrimination/publications/know-your-rights-age-discrimination-2012

See my post above.

The HRC have zero rights to take any action.

They will however, agree to facilitate a conciliation on the matter, only if the HRC commissioner believes that the employer is stretching the laws. Once
the employer fails to reply then it all ends.

The only compelling reason I can see for the employer to respond in any way, is to defend themselves early on so that when (if) it does to go a court, then they will have been seen to be attempting to participate and this try to defend any bad press if they lose.

[BuzzBox]

See my post above.

The HRC have zero rights to take any action.

They will however, agree to facilitate a conciliation on the matter, only if the HRC commissioner believes that the employer is stretching the laws. Once
the employer fails to reply then it all ends.

The only compelling reason I can see for the employer to respond in any way, is to defend themselves early on so that when (if) it does to go a court, then they will have been seen to be attempting to participate and this try to defend any bad press if they lose.





I said "If you believe you have a case, then you have every right to make a complaint". I did NOT say that it would achieve anything!

[TempoTCu]

I just want to be clear that I am not suggesting that I have been discriminated against - I'm just seeking feedback on what I can do (if anything) to overcome the constant rejections. This isn't about finding or making excuses, its about tapping into every resource available to learn and improve. Thanks.

[crosscutter]

I have to agree with the others who have said "just get on with it". Although cadetships have been around a while, cadets make up a minority of pilots in all airlines. It will not define your training or your success.

It's not easy to get a cadetship.

Have a look at the Qantas Recruitment thread. Look at the mind numbing number of views. There is lots of interest, lots of competition. Pilots from around the world from aeroclubs, the military and airlines are fighting for spots not just in Qantas but the other airlines too.

Be aware that you're up against people who have no other responsibilities, eat sleep and breathe aviation and totally submerge themselves in the industry. Flying is a passion that burns in some people and this helps this irrational devotion. So how much do you want it? A cadetship is no easy path, it guarantees nothing. So if you want it...if it burns in you...then get into flying. Otherwise, enjoy your PPL with friends and family.

Most of your readers have sacrificed their time, money and lives to be professional pilots. They have failed, picked themselves up, swept hangers, worked in 50 degree cockpits, had friends killed. Not getting into a cadetship is a first world problem that holds no relevance or significant disappointment. It will not define your flying and it certainly doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you.

[ACMS]

Why not contact them regarding your rejection letter and explain yourself exactly as you have done on the first post and ask them the reasons why. At least this way you can stop guessing and stop feeling inadequate, if you have the real reasons you can then make some more accurate decisions. I don't think they would be against telling you why you were rejected especially if you put your questions like you have in your first post. Good luck


They're not going to tell him why and then be taken to some court of discrimination.....You’d need a contact inside recruitment to shed any light.

[Fantome]

There is a character type, a profile, that the airline recruiters have clearly in mind. There is the formal selection criteria, and then there a less easy to define
assessment about an applicant's suitability, which may include a look at persona, which in effect covers tolerance, stability, humour and other attributes, while considering potentially adverse aspects such as prejudices, fixations or halitosis.
(A young woman I knew applied, well qualified. Three senior pilots, all men, interviewed her. She did well, presenting as confident, pleasant and relaxed.In conclusion they thanked her for coming in. As she rose to leave, one of the panel asked her. . . "Just a last question . .. what would be your reaction to
any sexual harassment on the flight deck?" She smilingly replied . . . "Well all I'd do is ask him to not say a word." General laughter. I rather think that clinched it for her. Home and hosed. )

P.S. You're right 'crosscutter'. . .. many of us swept hangers . .. . and not just the wire ones lying around in dusty corners of the hangar.

[crosscutter]

P.S. You're right 'crosscutter'. . .. many of us swept hangers . .. . and not just the wire ones lying around in dusty corners of the hangar.

haha...touché

[rmcdonal]

I am not pinning all my hopes and dreams on being a flagship airline pilot. I would be equally as thrilled with any pilot job in a full time capacity that meets my current cost of living.
That is probably a big stumbling block. There are very few, if any, low hour jobs that would meet the requirements of your current costs of living.

[HighFives]

Welcome to aviation (unfortunately), and the competitive nature of the game. I wouldn’t get beat up (or hung up) on age. Move on before it drains all of your energy.

If you’re willing to move into GA regionally after you get your CPL, I would say this is your best bet given your circumstances (my opinion only). Instructing is also another option, but if the GA industry is going firm, you’ll get ahead quicker by getting out of the big smoke (again my opinion).

Start establishing a relationship with an operator of your choice now, so that by the time you are qualified, you have a decent shot at your first gig. Networking is everything.

GA is a perfectly acceptable pathway for people in different life stages, and I don’t regret my 5 or so years in it (trust me it goes pretty quick). You meet so many different people and see a lot of this great country, needless to say that first turbo prop and first jet job taste all that much sweeter!

It sounds like a bitter pill to swallow, and it is! Rip that bandaid off quickly...then you won’t look back!

[27/09]

P.S. You're right 'crosscutter'. . .. many of us swept hangers . .. . and not just the wire ones lying around in dusty corners of the hangar.

One is spelled hangar the other wire ones, hanger. The word hangar is of French origin I believe.

Today's piece of interesting, useless, information.

Meanwhile back on topic

[27/09]

I just want to be clear that I am not suggesting that I have been discriminated against - I'm just seeking feedback on what I can do (if anything) to overcome the constant rejections. This isn't about finding or making excuses, its about tapping into every resource available to learn and improve. Thanks.
I think you need to change tack and forget about the academy route. There are other ways.

[Slippery_Pete]

(A young woman I knew applied, well qualified. Three senior pilots, all men, interviewed her. She did well, presenting as confident, pleasant and relaxed.In conclusion they thanked her for coming in. As she rose to leave, one of the panel asked her. . . "Just a last question . .. what would be your reaction to
any sexual harassment on the flight deck?" She smilingly replied . . . "Well all I'd do is ask him to not say a word." General laughter. I rather think that clinched it for her. Home and hosed. )

Great laugh, thanks for sharing. For her to reply like that, it’s instantly seen for what it is (a joke) and shows her sense of humour.

But had a male responded in the same way (with humour), how do you think that would have worked out?

[neville_nobody]

I am becoming miffed as to why I continue to be rejected at the first round of cuts for all cadetship/academy applications.

Well have a think about it from the airline's perspective. If they hire someone who will be about 40 when they get checked to line, it doesn't leave much time to be a Captain. You would be lucky to see a command at any Jet airline under 15 years from starting which would leave someone like yourself in their early to mid 50's when they are just starting their command, assuming you pass it first go. At best it leaves 5-10 years assuming you are capable and willing to fly into your 60s. Given they can hire a 22 year old and get 20+ years out of them as a Captain, what would you do if you were the airline?

[Fantome]

That is the long and the short of it. It makes no sense to persist with hoping for a break, crying for the moon.

[pilotchute]

I have seen first hand people 40+ going for their first jet rating with not a lot of experience.

Its very hit and miss. Out of 6 people 3 didn't make it.

[tbfka]

Got the same rejection email. 24, male, uni degree, all the necessary high school subjects, working full time. The application was pretty basic and didn’t ask for a resume, cover letter or anything about why you want to be a pilot or what characteristics you have that would make you a successful pilot etc etc. It was just name, gender, address, DOB, high school, any further studies, preferred course and a couple other questions. I had no idea how they were going to filter candidates (aside from gender) with such a basic application. Really makes you wonder what they’re after.

[lucille]

TempTCu, assuming you go the GA career route, how will your wife feel about being the main breadwinner? How will your family ​​​​survive on the less than subsistence salaries in GA? True, people do but it’s not pretty.

Heres the hard truth. You’re late 30’s with children. It’s too late now to follow your dream, your sole responsibility is to your children. Bluntly, at your stage of life, you’ve missed the boat. Accept it, find other avenues of fulfilment. There are many wonderfull ways to enjoy recreational aviation which don’t cost a bomb.

By way of perspective, may I add that the harsh reality of flying as a lucrative career is that it’s no longer fun nor enjoyable and will be the entire opposite of what you imagine it to be. Not a single one of all my friends would recommend it to their children. The “top of the ladder” is long haul - a special kind of hell. Where you trade your health and family life for money.

[ersa]

Form a class action for age discrimination and gender discrimination , take it to the human rights commission

[packapoo]

I just want to be clear that I am not suggesting that I have been discriminated against - I'm just seeking feedback on what I can do (if anything) to overcome the constant rejections. This isn't about finding or making excuses, its about tapping into every resource available to learn and improve. Thanks.

Sounds reasonable.

[Jeps]

We all need to remember that this is NOT a cadetship. Anyone that has looked at the application will see as others have said its very basic information.

[pilotchute]

Give it 12 months until the novelty wears off. They will then take anyone when people realise its not a guaranteed Qantas job.

[Jeps]

Give it 12 months until the novelty wears off. They will then take anyone when people realise its not a guaranteed Qantas job.

Well said. Probably less than 12 months though:}

[Squawk7700]

Form a class action for age discrimination and gender discrimination , take it to the human rights commission


Again, they have no statutory powers of authority to take any action. They won’t represent in court, they don’t make findings, they don’t make accusations etc.

You are on your own with age discrimination and also as above, the big law firms don’t do pro-bono on Human Rights cases.

The only way people succeed through the HRC is that the employers get scared and quickly look for a resolution so as to avoid any bad press which is highly unlikely without a law firm anyway.

[27/09]

TempTCu, assuming you go the GA career route, how will your wife feel about being the main breadwinner? How will your family ​​​​survive on the less than subsistence salaries in GA? True, people do but it’s not pretty.

Heres the hard truth. You’re late 30’s with children. It’s too late now to follow your dream, your sole responsibility is to your children. Bluntly, at your stage of life, you’ve missed the boat. Accept it, find other avenues of fulfilment. There are many wonderfull ways to enjoy recreational aviation which don’t cost a bomb.

By way of perspective, may I add that the harsh reality of flying as a lucrative career is that it’s no longer fun nor enjoyable and will be the entire opposite of what you imagine it to be. Not a single one of all my friends would recommend it to their children. The “top of the ladder” is long haul - a special kind of hell. Where you trade your health and family life for money.
I disagree, it's not too late to follow the dream. I know of several people who have started well into their thirties and even mid to late forties and are very happy with their decision. Sure it's not for everybody but it can work for some.

As for "top of the ladder" not everyone is obsessed with being a wide body captain.

So long as anyone entering the game is aware of the trials and tribulations of the job and have realistic expectations about where their career can take them and so do it with their eyes open then it can be a worthwhile and rewarding exercise. The problems happen when expectations and reality are not matched.

[B2N2]

I can apply at every astronaut program worldwide, I’ll be rejected at every single one.
i can also try out for the Olympics, I won’t make that either.
Why are you insisting on continued rejection for a path that’s not INTENDED for you?

[27/09]

Form a class action for age discrimination and gender discrimination , take it to the human rights commission

The only way this could succeed is to accumulate a significant amount of data which showed an incontrovertible bias in age/gender/etc in the successful V unsuccessful candidates. How you would gather such data I don't know. For the OP to undertake such a process would mean he/she would be diverting their focus from attaining their goal, thus wasting valuable energy and time. It's not a practical option for them.

However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.

You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.

[ersa]

The only way this could succeed is to accumulate a significant amount of data which showed an incontrovertible bias in age/gender/etc in the successful V unsuccessful candidates. How you would gather such data I don't know. For the OP to undertake such a process would mean he/she would be diverting their focus from attaining their goal, thus wasting valuable energy and time. It's not a practical option for them.

However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.

You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.

All you need is to open an investigation the commission does the rest , by requesting data from the training organisation

[Squawk7700]

The only way this could succeed is to accumulate a significant amount of data which showed an incontrovertible bias in age/gender/etc in the successful V unsuccessful candidates. How you would gather such data I don't know. For the OP to undertake such a process would mean he/she would be diverting their focus from attaining their goal, thus wasting valuable energy and time. It's not a practical option for them.

However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.

You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.

They will gather the data for you and if there’s a trend, you will have to take them to court yourself. Even if they find something blatantly obvious, they can’t do anything about it. YOU have to at your expense.

They can easily defend it by saying older applicants won’t be able to give a return of service long enough to recoup training costs and they will back it up with data from across the world that says that older applicants have a higher rate of dropout or ... insert wild claims here... you can ONLY fight this in court or via the media.

Take a look at the AirServices ATC entry criteria and you’ll see the same thing.

Unfortunately, this is reality.

[lucille]

I disagree, it's not too late to follow the dream. I know of several people who have started well into their thirties and even mid to late forties and are very happy with their decision. Sure it's not for everybody but it can work for some.

As for "top of the ladder" not everyone is obsessed with being a wide body captain.

So long as anyone entering the game is aware of the trials and tribulations of the job and have realistic expectations about where their career can take them and so do it with their eyes open then it can be a worthwhile and rewarding exercise. The problems happen when expectations and reality are not matched.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. It has nothing to with his age but rather his stage in life with a couple of kids and his age with reference to the parenthood thing. Hence my comment about it all being too late.

The problem with aviation is that we all suffer from the "grass is greener next door" syndrome. Only when its all too late and we've moved next door, do we realize the high cost of all that water which keeps the grass greener.

No idea how much a turboprop CN or FO earns in Oz these days, but I'm guessing there's not a lot left over at the end of the month, especially for the FOs. Is it even possible for a C-210 pilot to earn enough to support a family? This is the harsh reality which Tempo TCu needs to get a grip with. Worse still, a lot of jobs for low time pilots are in the bush. Great fun when you're young and single, not so much otherwise.

I honestly can't think of any jobs with reasonable Ts&Cs, longevity, job security and satisfaction. Only the RFDS springs to mind.

I started flying in 1975, besides the RFDS, Qantas, CASA and NAAFI I cannot think of a single other operator still in existence from those days. So much for job stability or longevity for an aviation career. A sobering thought, no? Hence my "brutal" advice to TempoTCu, it was meant with good intentions and not an ounce of malice or negativity.

[LeadSled]

TempoTCu,
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place, there is lots of aviation outside of three relatively small airline groups that "call Australia home".
One example, known to me, because I gave him his first (part time) job with a brand new CPL.
Age mid-thirties, a tradesman with a family.
Gained the CPL with a local aeroclub flying school.
First job flying single engine.
Got a CIR, gained a job with a local operator, flying various C-310/320, 402 etc.
Got himself to the US, did the usual ATR/multi/ IR etc., and went looking ---- by this stage the biggest he had flown was DC-3/C-47.
To cut a long story short, within ten years he was a wide body Captain for a major middle eastern carrier ---- and there are more opportunities out there now than ever, because the aviation industry is so much bigger.
BUT, as many have correctly told you, age is very much against you in the small puddle (the statistical rounding error) that is Australian aviation.
Tootle pip!!

[27/09]

They will gather the data for you and if there’s a trend, you will have to take them to court yourself. Even if they find something blatantly obvious, they can’t do anything about it. YOU have to at your expense.

They can easily defend it by saying older applicants won’t be able to give a return of service long enough to recoup training costs and they will back it up with data from across the world that says that older applicants have a higher rate of dropout or ... insert wild claims here... you can ONLY fight this in court or via the media.

Take a look at the AirServices ATC entry criteria and you’ll see the same thing.

Unfortunately, this is reality.

Agreed. Not worth the candle.

[Clare Prop]

If this isn't a cadetship then what training costs would they be recouping?

Do we want the situation like the UK where they have to provide application forms for ATC in braille?

[thorn bird]

I would say to Tempo, its a big wide aviation world out there. We live on this parochial rock, basically a pimple on the ass of the world down the bottom of the Pacific, we aint the real world, we like to think we are but we aint.

I know a guy who worked in GA in Australia and New Guinea for over twenty years, loved every minute of it, but being the right guy at the right time, as so often happens, an opportunity arrived and in his forties went to a foreign airline and finished up with a command on a wide body living the dream as they say. If you have the passion pursue your dream, forget about the naysayers.

An anecdote to match Fantomes. I guy I knew some years ago, had got through all a major airlines BS application process and was sitting in front of the final interview panel of crusty old captains. They were rather suss that he was a single guy in his mid thirties, they kept up the probing questions, never quite getting to the point, they thought he might be gay. Finally one of the old grey beards asked " We are interested to find out why you haven't taken a wife"...As in Fantomes case with the quick witted girl, he responded " Haven't found anyones wife I particularly want to take"!! No Laughs, just stunned silence! He recalls at that point he watched his airline career fly out the window. That guy went on to a fantastic career in the middle East and Europe and Asia, he's about to retire as a wide body C&T captain.

Tempo, Australia is the greatest place in the world in which to live, but that does not mean you can't make a good life elsewhere, even with your family in tow. My own kids grew up all over the world and are better for it, at the end of the day you'll come home and far better for it.

Embrace the world old mate.

[Stationair8]

You have dodged a bullet.

If you want to fly, find a crusty old flight instructor that will take you from ppl to CPL.

Do your CPL in C182/206, get the crusty old bloke to take you into some dodgy ag strips, crosswind landings etc.

The crusty old flight instructor is the one that doesn’t wear a safety vest, deaf in one ear, can’t hear out of the other one, blind in one eye, poor vision in the other one, will sleep quiet soundly on a two hour navex from just after top of climb, at this stage of his career he has had more wives/ girlfriends/mistress’s than downturns in GA.

[Flyboy1987]

Didn’t they have north of 20000 applications?

I imagine the majority will get a no at the first cut, the lucky ones get to pay to then be assessed.

I’m a bit late to this party but agree with what’s been previously said, your age and gendar has let you down.

Keep an eye on qf social media, the first batch of graduates will be AT LEAST 50% attractive females aged 20-30.

However there will be diversity.....an Asian female, a blonde female, a brunette female, a tall female, a short female etc.

[Andre Meyer]

Late 30s? Let's assume you're 37.

1. You pay off your home in 10 years. You get a third job (if you still have the second job, if you don't then you get a second and a third job). All the money goes to the home and the children. Nothing to you or your wife.
2. You stop flying now. Right away. You need to free up your brain capacity for the following points.
3. You buy theory books
4. You see what theory exams you need to sit (obviously not the ones you've already passed). You book the next one, grab its corresponding theory book and study for it.
5. You contribute $50 per week to your ATO Income Tax Account. Each Australian has one, contact your Accountant and he'll give you your BPAY details. You contribute for 10 years.
6. You study and sit all your theory exams (RPL, PPL, CPL, IREX and Instructors - this is important, will explain why in points to follow).
7. After theory exams are passed you do a distance learning ATPL course (they require CPL exam passes prior to enrolling). You learn and sit these exams - and you pass.
8. If all goes as planned house is paid off by 47. You stop working at job number 1. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
9. You enroll in an Aviation Course that is covered by a HELP Loan. You do the Certificate for Commercial Pilot, for Multi-Engine IR and for Instructors Rating. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
10. The Certificates by this time would be about $160,000 (indexed) with roughly about $25,000 in loan fee (loan fee is covered with contributions from point 5).
11. You pass the course because you're just focusing on flying (freed up brain capacity) - you've taken care of the theory side of things.
12. You apply for a job as an instructor at the school or club that you did your Certificate at. YOU DO NOT GO JOB HUNTING. You stay because you have a family to look after so you pester and pester until they offer you a job. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
13. If all goes as planned you'll have it all done by 49/50. Pay off your HELP loan with your wage as an instructor which is minor, so...(you know it) you continue working job number 2 and number 3
14. You work as an instructor and build you hours at your GA Airport until you reach the minimums for the Airlines and then you apply. Rejected? Apply again, and again, and network and network at the airport as much as you can.

The sooner you pay off your loans the sooner you can follow a plan.

Your life ends when you die, not in your late 30s...

[Gearupandorrf]

Hi Tempo,
A bit more food for thought.

You're also signing up for half a lifetimes worth of shift work. With a young Family, how do you (and also importantly your significant other) feel about being absent for MOST significant Family events including anniversaries/ birthdays/ Christmas etc etc.

And on the rare occasion that you are rostered off, there's a high chance that you'll be too stuffed to really enjoy it as you'll have just completed a string of 4+ sector days including early starts and late finishes. You'll be highly susceptible to chronic fatigue which is insidious because once it sets in, you won't realise how tired you really are.

I completed my CPL/ MECIR/ ATPL subjects in my late 30's while working in Flight Dispatch (doing flight planning) for a major Australian airline, which meant that I got to interact with Flightcrew on a daily basis. Believe me, even the keenest and freshest Cadets were bitching and moaning about fatigue/ loss of control of their life due to rostering/ being pestered by Crewing to work on days off etc after about 6- 12 months. My colleagues and I in flight dispatch used to be pretty good at it too. There's nothing glamorous about getting up at 4am 4 days in a row, or spending weekends/ Christmas/ Easter at work.

Life has taken me in another direction and I'm established in a very enjoyable career as a specialist Theory instructor delivering RPL/ PPL/ CPL and some ATPL theory at a tertiary institution.
I work close to home.
I sleep in my own Bed every night.
I can drop the Kids off at School and pick them up every day.
I actually look forward to weekends because my life isn't being controlled by a bloody roster.
For the same reason, I look forward to Christmas/ Easter etc.
I'm able to have an active social life because I can commit to things on a regular basis.
My health and sleep patterns are vastly improved.
I get to fly when I want on the company purse (my Employer encourages me to stay current).

I'm only pointing out the above because I absolutely used to be like you. I wasn't going to be happy until I was an Airline Pilot.

Although flying a jet would be cool, and the extra $$$ would be nice, it's not the be and end all. Up until the 1990's, it was a career worth sacrificing a lot of things for. Up until then, you were given $$$ without having to trade off quality of life and health.
The career today offers less $$$ (adjusted for inflation over 20-30 years) AND demands a lesser quality of life paired with the risk of damaging your health.

What's more important to you?

[junior.VH-LFA]

For what it’s worth, you’re not too old for the military either. There was a dude on my pilots course in his late 30’s with kids.

They don’t pay you like dirt either and you get to do some pretty cool flying.

[Checkboard]

Send another application, but tell them you're 25.

[Squawk7700]

For what it’s worth, you’re not too old for the military either. There was a dude on my pilots course in his late 30’s with kids.

They don’t pay you like dirt either and you get to do some pretty cool flying.

From memory some years back it was clearly stated that you had to be less than 31 to fly for the RAAF (joining age). I wonder when they changed that or if I’ve got that horribly wrong!

[Fantome]

lucille's advice , (#33) , is worth serious reflection. (See quote here.) The beauty of these invaluable forums is that if you are sufficiently discriminatory in assessing the experience and advice of some of those who contribute to the debate, you may be saved the heartaches and regrets that "living the dream" may incur.
Taking a broad view, predicting the next twenty to thirty years of life on earth is clouded by grim omens. Why not stay close to home and put your energies into enhancing the life of your young family. But if you must fly at any cost, perhaps take the advice of Stationair8 (#50) who has been round the block more times than a superannuated paperboy.

By way of perspective, may I add that the harsh reality of flying as a lucrative career is that it’s no longer fun nor enjoyable and will be the entire opposite of what you imagine it to be. Not a single one of all my friends would recommend it to their children. The “top of the ladder” is long haul - a special kind of hell. Where you trade your health and family life for money.

[minger]

What I find concerning is the 50/50 gender equality.

It should be very safe to assume that by virtue of statistics, in an industry that is male dominant, competitive suitable male applicants will simply not progress though the selection process because the company wants gender equality.

OP - if you have a read though the Qantas and Virgin Recruitment thread there are a lot of experienced pilots out there with thousands of hours that have been rejected for unknown reasons.

They share your same frustration.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Sunfish you are one sad individual.

[BuzzBox]

From memory some years back it was clearly stated that you had to be less than 31 to fly for the RAAF (joining age). I wonder when they changed that or if I’ve got that horribly wrong!

According to the Defence jobs website, for officer entry method pilots the "Preferred maximum age on entry is 48 years of age."

https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/jobs/air-force/pilot

[junior.VH-LFA]

From memory some years back it was clearly stated that you had to be less than 31 to fly for the RAAF (joining age). I wonder when they changed that or if I’ve got that horribly wrong!

From the Defence Recruiting Website: "Maximum age on entry is 45 years of age."

No idea when they changed it, I don't remember what it was when I joined as I was only 18 at the time haha.

[Global Aviator]

Sunfish - hats of to you for writing what is most likely the truth!

[neville_nobody]

I find this post wildly inappropriate. I have come to expect no less from you, especially after your comments about the RAAF wanting to bomb brown people.

No it is spot on. South Africa is already there.

If fact it wouldn't be a very difficult hypothesis to test.

[neville_nobody]

You work as an instructor and build you hours at your GA Airport until you reach the minimums for the Airlines and then you apply. Rejected? Apply again, and again, and network and network at the airport as much as you can.

The sooner you pay off your loans the sooner you can follow a plan.

Your life ends when you die, not in your late 30s...

Sorry you aren't going to get hired at an airline in your early 50s with just instructional time. Following your plan would work well if the end goal was an instructor and/or GA charter, but forget airlines ain't going to happen.

[Sunfish]

Regarding “Diversity”, once it has become Company policy at Board level, there is no other way to implement it, mathematically, assuming zero growth, than to hire more of the target group than the other groups.

Now unless there is a sudden increase in target group applicants compared to white males, that means you have to give recruiting preference to the target group. You may even have to encourage members to apply and provide incentives and perhaps additional training.

We we call this process “affirmative action” or “positive discrimination “ and it’s not only legal, it’s law. Expect it to be extended to minorities.


The Affirmative Action (Equal Employment Opportunity for Women) Act 1986 covers all higher education institutions and employers (other than public sector employers) employing 100 or more employees. They are required to develop and implement affirmative action programs for women and to submit annual reports on the progress of those programs. Public.......

There are eight steps to an affirmative action program, as described in the Affirmative Action (Equal Employment Opportunity for Women) Act 1986, which an employer must take, namely:

issue an affirmative action policy statement to all staff
appoint a senior manager to oversee the program
consult with employees, particularly women
develop a profile showing jobs where men and women work
review personnel policies and practices
set goals for the program
monitor the program and evaluate its achievements.
The Affirmative Action Agency, which administers the Affirmative Action (Equal Employment Opportunity for Women) Act 1986, names organisations failing to submit a report or providing a program. The report is tabled in the Australian Parliament.

On 1 January 1993 the Keating Government introduced a policy of contract compliance under which organisations failing to comply with the Affirmative Action (Equal Employment Opportunity for Women) Act 1986 are ineligible for government contracts and specified forms of industry assistance.(6)

Neither the Affirmative Action (Equal Employment Opportunity for Women) Act 1986 or any other Australian equal opportunity legislation imposes quotas. No Australian legislation requires that a certain number of women or other persons be employed.


.....and while nobody “officially “ imposes quotas, it would be a very brave HR manager who didn’t hire the proverbial Somali lesbian candidate that presented. Social justice warriors are quick, vicious and can do your company a lot of damage very quickly. Just look at the case of Israel Folau. No HR manager wants to star in one of those stories, hence white guys are last on the hiring list.

Sorry if it’s not supposed to be spoken about, but there it is.

[LeadSled]

What I find concerning is the 50/50 gender equality.
.
minger,
Look out, you will be in trouble with the Gender Diversity and Inclusion with Sustainability Enforcement Agency with that sort of post --- flatly stating "gender is binary --- you should understand that the "proper" position is that "gender" is fluid, and can (preferably) be anywhere on the LBTIQUSSGF spectrum.
Sadly, I know of a least one aviation employer where not being on the binary heterosexual scale will be a distinct advantage.
Tootle pip!!

PS: I do know of one chap who joined the Navy as a pilot at 63, but that was a special case, a cost saving measure.. He was, very briefly, the oldest "new recruit" in the RAN.

[Gligg]

Equality in the medium-long term can be achieved by education and cultural change.
To achieve it in the short term (2,3,5 years), it is necessary to reverse the discrimination, and disadvantage the 'advantaged' to achieve the goal.
One could argue that equality is achieved when both sides are equally miffed.

[ADawg]

Love that last line Gligg!
Affirmative action is a wonderful idea........until it affects you personally.
Ironically it appears to be lacking in senior management at many companies and throughout senior levels of government and politics.
Do as we say not as we do.

[minger]

minger,
Look out, you will be in trouble with the Gender Diversity and Inclusion with Sustainability Enforcement Agency with that sort of post --- flatly stating stating "gender is binary --- you should understand that the "proper" position is that "gender" is fluid, and can (preferably) be anywhere on the LBTIQUSSGF spectrum.
Sadly, I know of a least one aviation employer where not being on the binary heterosexual scale will be a distinct advantage.
Tootle pip!!

PS: I do know of one chap who joined the Navy as a pilot at 63, but that was a special case, a cost saving measure.. He was, very briefly, the oldest "new recruit" in the RAN.

lol
is that akin to me identifying myself as an empty pint glass? - put beer in me!

[SFX]

Hi mate.

I did the career change thing and got my CPL full time @ age 37 15 or so years ago, went up north early the next year and was lucky enough to score a job flying bug smashers over some of the best country on the planet. Met a heap of great people along the way and had a ball. I came home at the end of the season intending to head back up the next but accidentally fell into a great paying job in my old industry and so after 2 years of living like a pauper that was the end of my flying career.

Including the training and what I wasn't earning for 2 years it probably cost me upwards of 250k but it was a fantastic life experience and would do it all again in a heart beat. That said I was single, no kids, had a reasonably recent redundancy payout which helped with the training costs and mostly owned a house which I rented out while away to pay the mortgage. Even so it was still pretty tough financially and will be very hard going in your personal circumstances. Your chances of landing a cadetship or academy slot at your age are very slim so based on your 60 hours in 2 years it will probably take you another 3 - 5 before you get your CPL and then a few more years building hours in very low paying GA before you land something half decent. The military suggestion above might be an option, you could be in and out with a few thousand hours under your belt by your mid/late 40's, flying nice equipment, no training costs and a decent salary and perks along the way....

Good luck with it what ever decision you make, cheers.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Sunfish - hats of to you for writing what is most likely the truth!

Yeah he is a true Australian hero.

[rowdy trousers]

Don’t worry NZ Kiwi, one day you will understand.

In fact sunfish is only partially correct. If one looks at an extract from the Qantas Group HR employment manual it quite clearly states the following:
”........and preference shall be given to female transgender lesbian bi sexual transvestite midgets who shall ideally identify equally as aboriginal and American red indian whilst being sympathetic toward the Jewish faith and embracing those with red hair”

Further “we aim to achieve a split of 50% female, 50% vegan and 50% for those who are mathematically challenged.”

[mic310]

Just on the subject of age and experience. I can understand cadetships would be in uphill battle later in life but definitely could be done. How would someone 40+ with 1440 200 multi current IPC and ATPL subjects fend for them selves now days?
I would like to think there are a few decent opportunities out there, but could understand there would be limits on what you could realistically aim for. RPT or possibly something bigger. Any honest thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
310:ok:

[ersa]

Don’t worry NZ Kiwi, one day you will understand.

In fact sunfish is only partially correct. If one looks at an extract from the Qantas Group HR employment manual it quite clearly states the following:
”........and preference shall be given to female transgender lesbian bi sexual transvestite midgets who shall ideally identify equally as aboriginal and American red indian whilst being sympathetic toward the Jewish faith and embracing those with red hair”

Further “we aim to achieve a split of 50% female, 50% vegan and 50% for those who are mathematically challenged.”

Getting closer to the truth

[harrryw]

There was a time when the first females entered the cockpit that when I saw there was a female pilot she was surely capable as she had to work as hard or harder than anyone else to get there. I no longer have that confidence though I have no doubt that some of them are capable.

[B772]

harrryw Ditto When the s..t hits the fan I suspect some I know will not handle it well.

[B772]

TempoCTu. Its their train set and they can take who they choose. To be honest with you your age is a problem. You will be older than the instructors. You will not fit in with the rest of the course culture.

Do not be discouraged. All you need are the hours, licences and a reference. Suggest Rex or Sharp if you are looking for a disciplined course rather than DIY.

Good luck

[kaz3g]

.......and after the females, “diversity” will demand intakes of africans, asians and Aborigines. As a white guy you/ will be last for the foreseeable politically correct future. Best chance these days would be a Somali lesbian.

You need to get out more Sunny...we are no longer a monoculture and more than half the world is female.

[B2N2]

I’m in the back of a Qantas flight right now, would you like me to tell them anything?!

[kaz3g]

.......and after the females, “diversity” will demand intakes of africans, asians and Aborigines. As a white guy you/ will be last for the foreseeable politically correct future. Best chance these days would be a Somali lesbian.

You need to get out more Sunny...we are no longer a monoculture and more than half the world is female.

[junior.VH-LFA]

This thread is the prefect summary of why it's a good thing the world is changing.

[Sunfish]

Kaz, you make the mistake of thinking I don’t approve of a changing world. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What I am saying is that White males are at the bottom of recruitment priorities- which is a truth - unpleasant for some. White males should reconsider their career choices accordingly.

[TempoTCu]

Thanks for all the comments. Some I agree with, some I don't, some I don't want to but probably need to.

I think it is fine for an airline to pick and choose and, while it is disappointing that I might be discriminated against on the basis of age, so be it - it wont affect my desire to continue training and aspire to an eventual pilot role at some stage in my 40's. The most frustrating element is the advertised BS from the airlines that say "this is available to anyone". If this isn't the case, then don't state this.You don't have to specify the narrow band of applicants you are looking for, just don't get peoples hopes up by making overt false statements that include people you aren't looking for.

In any case, I acknowledge there is a slim chance of making it all the way to RPT, a slimmer chance of widebody, and a highly remote chance of CPT. But the journey for me is as much fun as the prospect of the end destination. I'd be proud to say I worked as hard as I did, at the age I am, to get to any full time pilot position. Good luck to all who are in a similar position as me, and a tip of the hat to everyone who has made it.

[NilanaD]

How do you get into the program? (Advantaged selection)
Hi I am:
- 18
- Completed School (Studied Maths, Physics and English)
- 10-20hrs of flying
Will this possibly give me entrance into the program? Should I build more hours and possibly get an RPL? Does having an RPL advantage you into the selection of the program?

[spektrum]

You're a female. You're already advantaged.

[NilanaD]

You're a female. You're already advantaged. I’m a male. But what I have achieved, do you think that will be enough or it will give me an advantage?

[Time Map Ground]

I’m a male. But what I have achieved, do you think that will be enough or it will give me an advantage?
I'm not an expert on the recruitment process, but it seems like you do satisfy their minimum requirements. Having 10-20 hours' flying experience isn't necessarily an advantage, but if you really enjoyed it then you could use this experience to strengthen your application by saying that this shows you're really keen on flying.

In addition to those minimum requirements, they'll be looking for mature individuals who think logically, can get along with people, and can remain composed under pressure. They are also looking for people who are keen on flying as a career, as it does get tough later down the road. Usually the one or two paragraphs that you write on your application form would be their way of making an initial assessment on a few of those things above, so make sure it is written carefully and has a logical and coherent flow to it. Good luck!

[ScepticalOptomist]

Thanks for all the comments. Some I agree with, some I don't, some I don't want to but probably need to.


TempoTCu - you have shown multiple times on this thread that you are mature-minded, committed, and determined to succeed in your career change.

I’d gladly have you as part of my crew - don’t give up, perhaps continue as a self funded student outside the academy route with a school that has airline exposure and experience.

When the world gets over this corona downturn - and it will , like all other cycles in history - you will get a gig flying, and you will love it.

You need two things to succeed in aviation - persistence, and persistence.

[Lead Balloon]

I just want to be clear that I am not suggesting that I have been discriminated against - I'm just seeking feedback on what I can do (if anything) to overcome the constant rejections. This isn't about finding or making excuses, its about tapping into every resource available to learn and improve.
Most of your readers have sacrificed their time, money and lives to be professional pilots. They have failed, picked themselves up, swept hangers, worked in 50 degree cockpits, had friends killed.If the application process requires any writing other than the entry of data (name, age, number of hours etc), I would recommend that you ask someone with deep written communication expertise to review what you have written.


I have reviewed many (many) applications for many (usually six-figure salary) positions, and the applications with any grammatical and other errors usually do not make it past the initial review. In a highly competitive process, the reviewers are trying to cull as many applicants as quickly as possible.

In the second quote above, the writer is in effect saying that the persons to whom s/he referred have conspired to murder people: “They have ... had friends killed.” The “hanger” point has already been picked up. I would chuckle at the former and cringe at the latter, and flick the application to the ‘reject’ pile. (However, I hasten to add that the writer was merely making an anonymous post on PPRUNE, so it is not a context in which anything important is at stake. I am not suggesting that the writer would write in the same way in a formal application.)

That said, someone very close to me spent a couple of decades in seat 0A of international heavy metal operations, and I suspect he will go to his grave never having understood the correct use of apostrophes and the difference between “your” and the contraction of “you are”. He was lucky enough too bee in the rite places at thee write thyme.