Another Russian Submarine Incident

[ORAC]

I title it as an incident as the submarine seems to save been saved/salvaged, but part or all the crew lost. RIP.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/02/fire-kills-14-russian-navy-submersible

Russia (https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) has revealed a fire onboard a top-secret navy submersible has left 14 sailors dead in a rare public incident involving one of the country’s most shadowy military projects. The Russian defence ministry did not identify the submersible by name, simply calling it a “deep-sea research vessel”. Several independent Russian media outlets, including RBC and Novaya Gazeta, identified the vessel as the Losharik, citing sources.

The Losharik spy submarine is believed to be nuclear powered, capable of diving to extreme depths and possibly involved in the tapping and severing of underwater communications cables.

The fire broke out on Monday while the vessel was carrying out research in Russia’s northern territorial waters, the defence ministry said. The sailors died from inhaling poisonous gas as a result of the fire, the ministry said. Russian officials did not say what caused the blaze, although they did say the vessel was performing bathymetric measurements in a study of the ocean floor.

The submersible is now at the Russian northern fleet’s base in Severomorsk on the Barents Sea.

The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, cancelled a scheduled appearance and summoned his defence minister to be briefed on the situation. He ordered an inquiry into the incident.......

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1290/image_721c0b4fbf0d544d5d57cb7c2d3de8a84b6d91f1.jpeg

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

So, what we know is:

1) A Russian sub' has sunk after 'catching fire' - 14 dead. May their god bless them.

2) @VP cancels everything & heads back to White House

3) Putin is in an emergency mtg with his defence team.

4) EU Commission Security is sitting in an unscheduled mtg


Online chatter suggests 2 USAF FEST Foreign Emergency Support Teams (C-32B) are now airborne.

WWW

[ORAC]

https://news.usni.org/2019/07/02/14-sailors-die-on-secretive-russian-nuclear-submarine

A fire that broke out on a secret Russian submarine has killed 14 sailors, according to a statement from the Ministry of Defense in Moscow.

“On July 1, 14 submariners – sailors – died in Russian territorial waters as a result of inhaling combustion products aboard a research submersible vehicle designated for studying the seafloor and the bottom of the World Ocean in the interests of the Russian Navy after a fire broke out during bathymetric measurements,” read a translation of the statement from the state-controlled TASS news service (https://tass.com/emergencies/1066739).

The fire was extinguished “thanks to the self-sacrificing actions of the team,” the ministry said. The incident is believed to have occurred off Russia’s northern shore in the Barents Sea on Monday, but the MoD has not specified. The submarine was towed to the Russian North Fleet headquarters in Severomork and an investigation is underway, according to the news agency.

According to a report in the state-controlled Sputnik news service, Russian President Vladimir Putin said seven captains of the first rank and two Heroes of Russia have died in the incident. Putin stated. “This is a great loss”, Putin said.

A U.S. 6th Fleet spokesperson told USNI News he was unaware of any requests for assistance from the Russian government........

[dead_pan]

I think all this online chatter about errant subs a la Red October was slightly overdone - turns out Pence may have recalled for humdrum domestic reasons.

Still, a big blow to the Russians. Apparently the Losharik was a major asset of theirs (how do they afford all this stuff??

[A_Van]

Let them glow! ....

Your bad manners are of course up to you.
When anything happens to US air- or seamen in such accidents I always feel sorry.


Want US help? ....


???? Who told you that? No US help was requested AFAIK, and what for? The submersible was in the Russian waters and it has not sunk (neither lost). There was a fire that was shut down but some crew members were poisoned by the fire products.

[FODPlod]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.
A scandalous comment and totally uncalled for. I'm sure the mariners who perished in this tragedy had nothing to do with the US elections.

RIP and sincere condolences to their bereaved families.

[jolihokistix]

Really grim news, but 'some crew members'...?

From ORAC's link above: "Seven captains of the first rank and two Heroes of Russia". Why were they aboard, I wonder?

[Tankertrashnav]

If this was important research I assume that all those senior officers were there as observers/participants in the research and not involved in the actual command of the boat.

The Sultan - an outrageous comment, and one whose sentiments I am sure would not be shared by US submariners.

[Chris Kebab]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.
You're a disgrace.

[Union Jack]

Really grim news, but 'some crew members'...?

From ORAC's link above: "Seven captains of the first rank and two Heroes of Russia". Why were they aboard, I wonder?

If this was important research I assume that all those senior officers were there as observers/participants in the research and not involved in the actual command of the boat.

The Sultan - an outrageous comment, and one whose sentiments I am sure would not be shared by US submariners.

Agree with TTN's first point, plus the submarine concerned allegedly has an all officer crew, which in turn suggests the need for someone fairly senior to be in command.

Turning to TTN's second point, I would go even further and say "any submariners".

Jack

[SASless]

Sultan continues to live up to his rather dubious reputation....and please do not think his lack of propriety is acceptable to any of us over here either.

These are human tragedies where loved ones mourn the loss of those killed in the tragedy.

Even in War....while looking at the aftermath of battle....one has to remember all the bodies of both sides...belonged to families somewhere that are heartbroken at the news of the death.

[nonsense]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.

And miss the opportunity for a really good look at a Russian submarine?

[4eyed anorak]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.

An utterly shameful comment!

[ORAC]

A highly specialist vehicle - and doubtless crew. I would assume most would hold the rank because they were PhDs or equivalents in their won fields. Given the depth the vehicle is designed to operate at I would suspect they breathe a highly specialised mix, and wonder if that may have been a factor in the accident.

Referring again to my link above:

”.....The boat was identified by Russian-language news service RBC as Losharik (AS-12), a nuclear-powered submarine that is widely believed to be a key asset for the Russian Main Directorate of Deep-Sea Research, also known as GUGI. GUGI develops and operates a fleet of specialized submarines that Russia uses for deep sea and Moscow’s most covert operations. The organization reports directly to Russian military intelligence — the GRU — rather than the Russian Navy.

Losharik is among the most mysterious of the closely guarded fleet. Fielded in the late 1990s, specifics for the nuclear-powered boat are few. It’s estimated to carry a crew of about 25 and can dive to thousands of feet below the surface, according to the Military Russia (http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-543.html) blog. The about 2000-ton boat can travel slung under the belly of a specially modified Delta III nuclear ballistic missile submarine, according to open source intelligence analysts. The purpose and capabilities of Losharik are shrouded in mystery.......

The deep-sea missions the sub is sent on leads Western military analysts to believe the interior of the sub is actually made up of a series of possibly seven orb-shaped spaces, according to Sutton’s Covert Shores (http://www.hisutton.com/Spy%20Sub%20-%20Project%2010831%20Losharik.html). The sub’s name is derived from a popular Russian cartoon horse that’s made out of juggling balls. The use of orb-shaped compartments, while diminishing the amount of space for living quarters, operating equipment and the propulsion unit, makes the sub stronger and able to dive deeper than a traditional submarine hull.

As for what Losharik does, it’s suspected the Russian government has used the sub’s deep-sea diving capability to extened Russia’s territorial claims to the sea floor under the Arctic Ocean. In 2012, Losharik was part of a large Russian naval exercise in the Arctic, collecting samples to prove the Lomonsov and Mendeleyev Ridges on the sea floor are part of the Russian continental shelf, according to Unconstrained Foreign Direct Investment: An Emerging Challenge to Arctic Security (https://www.nativefederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-Unconstrained-Foreign-Direct-Investment-An-Emerging-Challenge-to-Arctic-Security.pdf), a 2017 report by CNA.....

“.........The vessel is the most advanced Russian submersible, under a heavy veil of secrecy, and it is believed to have entered service in 2010. It is named after a Soviet-era animated cartoon horse that is made up of small spheres. The name is apparently derives from the unique design of its interior hull, which is made of titanium spheres capable of withstanding high pressure at great depths.

In 2012, the Losharik was involved in research intended to prove Russia’s claim on the vast Arctic seabed. It collected samples from the depth of 2,500 meters (8,202 feet), according to official statements at the time. Regular submarines can typically dive to depths of up to 600 meters (2,000 feet). Some observers speculated the Losharik was even capable of going as deep as 6,000 meters (19,685 feet), but the claims couldn’t be independently confirmed......”


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x536/image_5e2669f97cf205bd201ccd5540104573d74422dd.jpeg

[Bing]

'Given the depth the vehicle is designed to operate at I would suspect they breathe a highly specialised mix'

Shouldn't need to, wouldn't the interior of the submarine be at more or less sea level pressure?

[ORAC]

Just looking at the design, and the missions working on cables, I was wondering if any of the spheres were for deep divers - where the record depth is over 2000ft.


https://web.archive.org/web/20081005073910/http://www.comex.fr/suite/ceh/histo/histo%20anglais.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_diving

”Deep diving can mean something else in the commercial diving field. For instance early experiments carried out by Comex S.A. (Compagnie maritime d'expertises (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnie_maritime_d%27expertises)) using hydrox (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrox_(breathing_gas)) and trimix (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimix_(breathing_gas)) attained far greater depths than any recreational technical diving. One example being the Comex Janus IV open-sea dive to 501 metres (1,644 ft) in 1977.[2] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_diving#cite_note-2)
[3] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_diving#cite_note-3) The open-sea diving depth record was achieved in 1988 by a team of Comex divers who performed pipeline connection exercises at a depth of 534 metres (1,752 ft) in the Mediterranean Sea as part of the Hydra 8 programme.[4] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_diving#cite_note-Hydra_8-4) These divers needed to breathe special gas mixtures because they were exposed to very high ambient pressure (more than 50 times atmospheric pressure).“.....

[langleybaston]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.

Grotesque.

Surely we can ban this person?
I have refrained from answering filth with filth, but with difficulty.

[West Coast]

Your bad manners are of course up to you.
When anything happens to US air- or seamen in such accidents I always feel sorry.



???? Who told you that? No US help was requested AFAIK, and what for? The submersible was in the Russian waters and it has not sunk (neither lost). There was a fire that was shut down but some crew members were poisoned by the fire products.






Van

Know that Sultan isn’t representative of the general US public. He’s actually an outlier and his comments are an embarrassment.

[FakePilot]

'Given the depth the vehicle is designed to operate at I would suspect they breathe a highly specialised mix'

Shouldn't need to, wouldn't the interior of the submarine be at more or less sea level pressure?

I would guess that pressurizing the hull could add 300-600 ft to the max depth at great health/chemical interaction risk so I guess they wouldn't pressurize.

[Fareastdriver]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.

A sick post! We need sick posts to remind us of what people are really like.

[tdracer]

ORAC, thanks for the technical information on the sub - that indeed is an unusual design using spheres instead of cylinders. Very interesting that the first drawing shows the 6-7 spheres unconnected to the rest. Assuming that's accurate and the relatively small size of the sub, I wonder if the fire took out the entire crew in that portion of the boat :eek:

BTW Wee Weasley, you must be a barrel of laughs on conspiracy web sights. :E

[air pig]

Military Aviation?

Well you may have needed aviation support if rescue had been required. I suspect that many on here are interested, in that their former or current employment is searching for such vessels both in time of peace and war.

[air pig]

ORAC, thanks for the technical information on the sub - that indeed is an unusual design using spheres instead of cylinders. Very interesting that the first drawing shows the 6-7 spheres unconnected to the rest. Assuming that's accurate and the relatively small size of the sub, I wonder if the fire took out the entire crew in that portion of the boat :eek:

BTW Wee Weasley, you must be a barrel of laughs on conspiracy web sights. :E

I think that spheres are far harder to compress than a tube like structure as such and the vessel can work in a 1atm environment just the same a SSN/SSBN. If you loook at the Trieste, the occupied part was indeed a sphere. Sphere's 6 & 7 obvioulsy contain the nuclear power plant which for any reason has a failure at those depths being isolated may protect the crew whilst the emergency blow even if the stern end was either seriously damaged or even missing. Pure supposition I know.

[air pig]

Let them glow! Want US help? Don’t interfere in ou elections.


For an intelligent person Sir you come over as an unfeeling uncaring individual. Your knowledge of the Submariners creed is sorely lacking, I suggest that you gain an education from a member of the submarine ommunity. Remember it's better to be thought a fool than open your mouth to remove all doubt.

[SASless]

Langleybaston....."we" do not ban....Mod's do.

"We" ignore.

[weemonkey]

A scandalous comment and totally uncalled for. I'm sure the mariners who perished in this tragedy had nothing to do with the US elections.

RIP and sincere condolences to their bereaved families.

Seconded. Oh and I'm sure the Russians had nothing to do with election plural or not!!

[jolihokistix]

Ni idea what the video clip at the bottom of the page is showing. Looks like a fire in the stern of a docked submarine somewhere (?). Ignore as necessary, I reckon.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28804/heres-everything-we-know-about-the-deadly-russian-submarine-fire

[racedo]

Langleybaston....."we" do not ban....Mod's do.

"We" ignore.

I agree. I don't want censorship, I want everybody to see what pondlife looks like.

[tdracer]

I think that spheres are far harder to compress than a tube like structure as such and the vessel can work in a 1atm environment just the same a SSN/SSBN. If you loook at the Trieste, the occupied part was indeed a sphere. Sphere's 6 & 7 obvioulsy contain the nuclear power plant which for any reason has a failure at those depths being isolated may protect the crew whilst the emergency blow even if the stern end was either seriously damaged or even missing. Pure supposition I know.

I understand that the sphere is better than a cylinder for resisting pressure - it's just that I'd never seen such a design used on anything but a small diving bell - not a full blown sub.

It seems like a (heavy duty) pressure hatch between the aft and forward compartments could achieve the same isolation while allowing the crew to move around (something similar to what they use to ingress/egress on the surface) . Being locked into that aft reactor area on a long mission would be a nasty duty.

[air pig]

I understand that the sphere is better than a cylinder for resisting pressure - it's just that I'd never seen such a design used on anything but a small diving bell - not a full blown sub.

It seems like a (heavy duty) pressure hatch between the aft and forward compartments could achieve the same isolation while allowing the crew to move around (something similar to what they use to ingress/egress on the surface) . Being locked into that aft reactor area on a long mission would be a nasty duty.

It was always said you could tell a member of the Red Banner Northern Fleet because they glowed in the dark. Nevertheless RiP to the crew who died and condolences to their loved ones. Eternally on patrol.

[rattman]

A list of the dead have been released, just on ranks alone they lost a specialised skills that cant be easily replacedCaptain 1st Rank

Konstantin Ivanov
Andrey Voskresenskiy
Konstantin Somov
Denis Oparin
Vladimir Abankin
Denis Dolonskiy
Nikolay Filin

Captain 2nd Rank

Alexander Avdonin
Dmitriy Solovyev
Sergey Danilchenko

Captain 3rd Rank

Viktor Kuzmin
Vladimir Sukhinichev

Other Crew

Lieutenant Captain Mikhail Dubkov
Lieutenant Colonel of Medical Service Alexandr Vasilyev

[Asturias56]

Suspect these are VERY Specialized skills and vast experience - what an awful end

Fires in any ship are bad but in a submarine you're on a knife edge -

IIRC there was one years back where a relatively small fire just removed all the oxygen from the interior and everyone died from lack of Oxygen rather than the fire itself

RIP

[BEagle]

Back in 2005, Vladimir Putin was very generous with his thanks to the British submarine rescue team which saved a mini submarine crew trapped on the ocean floor - see https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/oct/05/russia.world .

[Asturias56]

It's not one way - remember that Norwegian fishing crew in saved by a monster Russian Sub a year or so back? The pictures were very impressive..........................

https://gcaptain.com/russian-nuclear-submarine-rescues-sailors-distress-photos/

[Blossy]

A monster of the deep. Impressive indeed.

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting reading in today's Times about the forthcoming film Kursk: The Last Mission. Colin Firth plays the part of Commodore David Russell who led the Anglo Norwegian party who carried out the unsuccessful attempt to find and rescue survivors from the boat on the bed of the Barents Sea in August 2000. Firth had extensive talks with Cdre Russell, a former Trident submarine captain now retired, about the rescue. He contrasts how the Russians have released news of this latest accident almost immediately whereas in the earlier event a delay of two and a half days before they admitted they needed help may have led to the fact that men who definitely survived the initial explosion unfortunately were not rescued in time.

One quote from Cdre Russell is relevant to this thread and reinforces what others have said - "...there is a special bond between submariners ..." Take note The Sultan if you are still here (which I somehow doubt)

[Asturias56]

Back in 2005, Vladimir Putin was very generous with his thanks to the British submarine rescue team which saved a mini submarine crew trapped on the ocean floor - see
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/oct/05/russia.world .

I'll bet they confuse a few people with their medal rack........................

[Tankertrashnav]

Be interesting to know whether permission has been granted to service personnel to wear Russian medals in uniform (other than on the day of presentation, as shown in the photo). There were some interesting Soviet awards to British personnel after WW2, including a couple of awards of the Order of Lenin to RAF Hurricane pilots who had been operating in North Russia, but they were not permitted to be worn when in uniform. Nothing to stop them being worn on civilian clothing after the recipient has left the service.

[BEagle]

Be interesting to know whether permission has been granted to service personnel to wear Russian medals in uniform

I doubt it. No doubt for the same reason that those of us awarded medals by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in 1991 are forbidden to wear them...:mad:

Although I was pleased to see that at least one Master Engineer had given that piece of parsimony a sound ignoring when I saw him wearing them as miniatures...:ok:

[air pig]

I doubt it. No doubt for the same reason that those of us awarded medals by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in 1991 are forbidden to wear them...:mad:

Although I was pleased to see that at least one Master Engineer had given that piece of parsimony a sound ignoring when I saw him wearing them as miniatures...:ok:

I know of one person who with permission of HM the Queen, no higher authority available, wore whilst in uniform, the Orden de Mayo, awarded to him by the Argentine government for his service and the people he led during the Falklands War, the recently departed Sugeon Captain Rick Jolly RN Officer Commanding Ajax Bay medical facility aka 'the Red and Green Life Machine'. A man who with his team preserved life without fear or favour, they brought care to all. He was instrumental in bringing veterans of both sides together after the conflict.

I believe he should have been awarded a medal for gallentry for going down twice on a wire into freezing temperature water with no specialist protection to rescue two men who would have died without him.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/24/surgeon-captain-rick-jolly-obituary

[Asturias56]

It all sounds terribly petty doesn't it...................

[air pig]

During the war Lt Col Oreste Pinto was awarded a French medal. Whilst he could accept it he was not permitted to wear it. When visiting the French HQ in London they queried why he was not wearing their medal. To avoid upsetting the French he wore one set of ribbons away from their HQ and their medal when visiting.

Wing Commander Forrest Frederick Yeo-Thomas GC had the same problem, so as previously stated kept two No 1 unform jackets, one with his Croix de Guerre avec palm and one without.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wing Commander Forrest Frederick Yeo-Thomas GC had the same problem, so as previously stated kept two No 1 unform jackets, one with his Croix de Guerre avec palm and one without.
AP, I might be wrong and it was not Pinto. Strange though as my GF wore his WW1 CdeG.

[air pig]

AP, I might be wrong and it was not Pinto. Strange though as my GF wore his WW1 CdeG.

It has I believe to br granted on an individual basis. Was his wearing of the CdeG, post service?

[Tankertrashnav]

Groups of medals with the WW1 Croix de Guerre turn up reasonably frequently, and they were certainly authorised for wear. Not sure why Yeo Thomas couldnt wear his C de G ribbon - possibly so as not to draw attention to his clandestine operations?

[air pig]

Groups of medals with the WW1 Croix de Guerre turn up reasonably frequently, and they were certainly authorised for wear. Not sure why Yeo Thomas couldnt wear his C de G ribbon - possibly so as not to draw attention to his clandestine operations?


It was the stupidity of the Air Ministry red tape, plus how many would recognise a CdeG? He was a liason between the UK and the Free French but had dropped as we know into France with others to organise the resistance until his capture. He even gave evidence at Nuremberg in defence of Skorzeny.

Apologies thread drift.

[Asturias56]

See the funerals were held in St Petersburg yesterday................ v sad