Qantas Short Haul 2019 EA Negotiations (EA 8)

[Tony the Tiler]

Rumours abound that the fat lady is warming up. About to start singing for 3%. Anyone care to confirm?

[goodonyamate]

Unless it addresses the risk, work life balance and leave entitlements it will be a big fat NO.

[A320 Flyer]

I’d say given the recent EBA rises in Aus and NZ that have been voted up, coupled with QF performance, 3% isn’t going to cut it.....

[SixDemonBag]

6% initially, then 3 + 3...or something like that

[dragon man]

The 3% is on offer for no offsets , the smoky in all of this IMO will be formalising ultra long haul (20 hours plus TOD) crewing compliment and conditions.

[SandyPalms]

Short Haul Dragon.

[dragon man]

Off to spec savers, sorry.

[Rated De]

Unless it addresses the risk, work life balance and leave entitlements it will be a big fat NO.



From the perspective of leave entitlements it shall be very interesting how the representative body 'sells' an improvement in sick leave.
A FWA decision last year over turned the way employers calculate sick leave deductions.
Effectively, 10 days (or 76 hours) per year is fine for office staff working an average 7.6 hour day.

For shift workers (pilots included) working 12 hour days equating 10 days to hours ought mean 120 hours as the sick leave provision.
That airlines have deducted duty hours from 76 hour totals will have short changed the pilot substantially.

Any attempt to sell the legislatively mandated change as a 'win' is disingenuous.
What about those individuals wrongly deducted sick leave whilst the company incorrectly deducted it from the 76 hour total?
Are those affected pilots to be compensated? Is not why not?

Curious minds want to understand precisely how the representative body ensure those affected pilots receive their correct back paid entitlement of sick leave.

This interpretation was upheld by the Fair Work Commission, with deputy president Lyndall Dean finding employees are entitled to 10 days of sick leave per annum, and AstraZeneca workers on 12-hour and 10-hour shift rosters should have their sick leave entitlements calculated on the basis of these ‘typical’ work days. “I cannot accept AstraZeneca’s submission that the entitlement to 10 days of paid personal/carer’s leave means an entitlement to payment equal to the time that would have been worked on 10 ordinary or standard days of averaged ordinary hours, i.e. of 7.2 or 7.6 hours duration,” Dean said.

This would mean the total annual sick leave for shift workers would instead accrue to 120 hours, due to the standard ‘day’ for one of these workers being 12 hours.

Will be interesting to see how this is addressed...

"Employers who have been taking the FWO's advice and only paying their employees for 7.2 hours when they are missing 12-hour shifts on leave are likely liable to backpay stretching back six years," he said.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace/more-than-a-million-workers-short-changed-on-sick-leave-20180813-p4zx5v.html

[AerocatS2A]

Is that the way Qantas works sick pay? I’ve never worked for them, but all the aviation companies I have worked for just deducted a days sick leave from the entitlement (21 days plus 6 URTIs at the last mob) without converting to hours. Remaining balances were expressed in days as well.

[wombat watcher]

Rated de is confused by his navel gazing.
In Qf shorthaul, there is no doubt about how many days sick leave a pilot is entitled to.
There is a big gap between pilot expectations on what they are paid when on sick leave and what they actually get.
They covet the longhaul system.
very hard to get.
An esoteric argument from Rated De wont get them over the line.

[Lezzeno]

In Qf shorthaul, there is no doubt about how many days sick leave a pilot is entitled to.

How many days sick leave is a Qf shorthaul pilot entitled to?

[wombat watcher]

15 WORKING days. WORKING days is important
plus URTI

[Rated De]

15 WORKING days. WORKING days is important
plus URTI

So do QF deduct duty hours or paid flight hours from an annual 76 hours credit? (for Qantas domestic pilots)

[Lezzeno]

15 WORKING days. WORKING days is important
plus URTI

wombat watcher you do realize every Qf shorthaul pilot that has seen your post now knows you are a tool?

[wombat watcher]

Nothing wrong wrong with being a tool when being judged by a mental Pygmy.

[Lezzeno]

Okay, how about you cut the relevant section from the Qf shorthaul EA regarding sick leave and post it here so us mental pygmies in Qf shorthaul can be educated?

[Rated De]

The Commission's ruling, found a worker's typical shift should be used to calculate the total number of hours meaning a shift-worker who does usually a 12 hour shift should receive 120 hours of paid leave per year.

Using the arithmetic quoted, to arrive at 15 WORKING DAYS (your bolding) that would necessitate Qantas deducting 5 hours per day for each day sick? (76/5)
If that is how it was applied before the FWA ruling it would be appreciated it as suggested above, the relevant excerpts be posted showing the calculation.

[wombat watcher]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/df373af6_407e_4739_b820_968bfa435afe_1e99fd27b5aaeeb88bb7987 b0f37f824dbdf99f8.png
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/1c8a4fe6_24c4_477f_8686_5c9a3930b117_2b27130b2509ecddf3e9093 7a9291404c040bf4b.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/bc92f4c2_1bb9_4a28_92eb_b128230c42c7_96124ee306e9ff012307318 4066ce6d7004ee86a.png

[Lezzeno]

So where does it state pilots are entitled to 15 WORKING days?

[wombat watcher]

For the pygmies, what that means is that a shorthaul pilot can have 15 working days pa sick plus urti. Any trips he drops is unpaid except that the pilot can have up to 76 hours of pay pa to offset any trips he has dropped unpaid. Unlike longhaul, if he is sick on a day off it doesn’t count.
That means if a pilot has for instance dropped 200 hours of flying pa due to being sick he will get 76 hours back paid meaning he doesn’t get paid for the 126 other hours. It is then up to the pilot. To chase the 126 hours if he wants to get paid for them
This of course is underpinned by the minimum guarantee of not being paid less than 58 hours per month.
Rated De, your reference to whatever arbitration is irrelevant in this context.

[Lezzeno]

Please just state the paragraph number in the document that mentions 15 working days.

[George Glass]

It is almost impossible to accumulate sick leave under the current system. Young F/Os should think very carefully about where they might be in the distant future if they become long-term sick. Short haul used to be the best gig in town but the last couple of EBA’s have been a disaster. That’s why nobody is staying...........

[Rated De]

100% correct, it is even 76 Duty hours not stick, An 11:45 day that has 6:05 stick would deduct 11:45 from the 76:00! What is worse, if you have a fatigue day due their rostering, it is also deducted from this! ****** over with a sharp stick.

From a Qantas Short Haul pilot.

Paragraph 40.1 is clear, it is 76 duty hours.
Not quite sure how it could be argued otherwise, thank you for posting the actual document it is written there in black and white.
Thus, given FWA has set ruled this calculation short changes shift workers, the recompense due employees under this erroneous contract 'interpretation' for the entirety of its existence is substantial.
Naturally, the 'representative association' will be right onto this.

[ddrwk]

For the pygmies, what that means is that a shorthaul pilot can have 15 working days pa sick plus urti. Any trips he drops is unpaid except that the pilot can have up to 76 hours of pay pa to offset any trips he has dropped unpaid. Unlike longhaul, if he is sick on a day off it doesn’t count.
That means if a pilot has for instance dropped 200 hours of flying pa due to being sick he will get 76 hours back paid meaning he doesn’t get paid for the 126 other hours. It is then up to the pilot. To chase the 126 hours if he wants to get paid for them
This of course is underpinned by the minimum guarantee of not being paid less than 58 hours per month.
Rated De, your reference to whatever arbitration is irrelevant in this context.

You couldn't be more wrong.

There are currently two systems.

Personal Leave is accrued at 76 duty hour per year. When you are sick you are deducted, from this balance, the duty hours for the planned trip and paid whatever the planned credit was.
Sick Leave is an older system which accrued at 15 days per year but paid at 3 hours per day regardless of the planned credit. (There are some top up provisions which allow burning more days to increase credit)

Personal leave is used first till exhausted and then if necessary sick leave is used.

Rated De the case to which you refer is currently under appeal

[Rated De]

You couldn't be more wrong.

There are currently two systems.

Personal Leave is accrued at 76 duty hour per year. When you are sick you are deducted, from this balance, the duty hours for the planned trip and paid whatever the planned credit was.
Sick Leave is an older system which accrued at 15 days per year but paid at 3 hours per day regardless of the planned credit. (There are some top up provisions which allow burning more days to increase credit)

Personal leave is used first till exhausted and then if necessary sick leave is used.

Rated De the case to which you refer is currently under appeal

Yes, the matter is pending review, however other than the cost to provide recompense, the FWA narrative was pretty clear; the intent and execution of the statute (and any contracts thereafter) was to ensure all workers (Full-time) had access to ten days paid, cumulative sick leave on an annualised basis. Employers no doubt will argue that the cost imposition to correct this error is prohibitive.
What is interesting is that smaller enterprises may receive a reprieve, but companies the size of Qantas ought be compensating those pilots and other shift workers that have been incorrectly deducted the statutory entitlements.

[ddrwk]

What is interesting is that smaller enterprises may receive a reprieve, but companies the size of Qantas ought be compensating those pilots and other shift workers that have been incorrectly deducted the statutory entitlements.

Does the law apply differently to organisations depending on revenue?

How is that correct, let alone interesting?

[Street garbage]

WW...how is the basket weaving progressing???

There will be an overwhelming No vote unless:
Day of Operation pay guarantee; (do you lose pay if your meeting is cancelled WW?)....On this point alone, with the increasing cancellation of sectors, will get a no vote from most of us if not fixed.
Sick leave provisions is changed to a minimum 14 days plus 4 days URTI ..(you were not even close WW);
Paid Reserve.

[Street garbage]

Does anyone know if it is going to the AIPA comm soon?

[Rated De]

WW...how is the basket weaving progressing???

There will be an overwhelming No vote unless:
Day of Operation pay guarantee; (do you lose pay if your meeting is cancelled WW?)....On this point alone, with the increasing cancellation of sectors, will get a no vote from most of us if not fixed.
Sick leave provisions is changed to a minimum 14 days plus 4 days URTI ..(you were not even close WW);
Paid Reserve.

Is it presently the case that is flying is cancelled by the company the pilot is not paid?

With respect to the sick leave, the FWA decision (although appealed) was very clear; the conversion of sick leave DAYS to HOURS was not to short change workers like pilots working longer shifts.
The compensation due the affected workers is substantial and any pilot who works under this arrangement and is 'represented' by a union ought be asking precisely what the union intends to do about the illegally deducted sick leave.

[Street garbage]

Yes, if they cancel your flying,no pay The pathetically low MGH provides a low floor protection...which will become more and more of a factor as the Australian economy continues to contract.

[Rated De]

Yes, if they cancel your flying,no pay The pathetically low MGH provides a low floor protection...which will become more and more of a factor as the Australian economy continues to contract.

So if the MGH is say 55 hours per month then the 'salary package' ought be very low.
Even casual workers are entitled to be paid if their employer decides it is not commercially viable to continue with the rostered duty.

The representative association ought be making sure that Qantas repay all the illegally deducted sick leave.

[maggot]

Yeah you can turn up for, say, a drw return and have it canned - you've done over 10% of your months pay. But you can make it up... Come in on another few days etc :hmm:

[Rated De]

The Commission's ruling, which centred on a pay deal for employees at pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca, found a worker's typical shift should be used to calculate the total number of hours meaning a shift-worker who does usually a 12-hour shift should receive 120 hours of paid leave per year.

Given that QF domestic pilots regularly work 10,11 or 11.5 hour duty days, the practice of deducting duty hours from the 76 hours is erroneous. Practically, instead of 10 days sick/personal leave (76/7.6=10), the company is deducting duty hours, which ordinarily are far greater than the 7.6 imagined. As conceived by FWA the formula assumed workers worked an average standard 7.6 hour day. The adopted method leaves pilots without a number of personal days.
Whatever the formula and spirited defence of management, there ought be a little more at stake for QF if this case if not overturned than a small pharmaceutical company.

(and thank-you to the QF domestic pilots providing this information)

Assumption:

Captain hourly rate and FO (65% of Captain rate)
700 hours per year.
Even split between ranks
Agreement dated 2014 (5years)



Thus,If in a given year the pilot was credited 76 duty hours, not 120 duty hours then they have been short-changed 44 hours per year, for at least five years.
Each Captain is owed conservatively $60,000 of un-credited personal leave.
Each FO is owed conservatively $40,000 of uncredited personal leave
Both amounts ignore compounding.

Assuming around 1,000 pilots are affected, (very conservative given the rumoured training and retirement rates) with an even split between ranks,
conservatively the company ought be paying out AUD$50,000,000 to affect pilots.

Nice leverage for a pilot association.

[Vindiesel]

Given that QF domestic pilots regularly work 10,11 or 11.5 hour duty days, the practice of deducting duty hours from the 76 hours is erroneous. Practically, instead of 10 days sick/personal leave (76/7.6=10), the company is deducting duty hours, which ordinarily are far greater than the 7.6 imagined. As conceived by FWA the formula assumed workers worked an average standard 7.6 hour day. The adopted method leaves pilots without a number of personal days.
Whatever the formula and spirited defence of management, there ought be a little more at stake for QF if this case if not overturned than a small pharmaceutical company.

(and thank-you to the QF domestic pilots providing this information)

Assumption:

Captain hourly rate and FO (65% of Captain rate)
700 hours per year.
Even split between ranks
Agreement dated 2014 (5years)



Thus,If in a given year the pilot was credited 76 duty hours, not 120 duty hours then they have been short-changed 44 hours per year, for at least five years.
Each Captain is owed conservatively $60,000 of un-credited personal leave.
Each FO is owed conservatively $40,000 of uncredited personal leave
Both amounts ignore compounding.

Assuming around 1,000 pilots are affected, (very conservative given the rumoured training and retirement rates) with an even split between ranks,
conservatively the company ought be paying out AUD$50,000,000 to affect pilots.

Nice leverage for a pilot association.

You really don't understand the AstrtaZenica case do you? It held that workers on a fixed 12 hour shift roster were entitled to 10 days at 12 hours per day, workers on fixed 8 hour rosters were entitled to 10 days at 8 hours pay and so on. These workers were rostered on fixed shift lengths. QF SH pilots are not. The AstraZenica case is not authority that workers with variable shift lengths automatically get 10 times their maximum possible shift length hours as an annual entitlement, as you suggest.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?

[shortshortz]

You really don't understand the AstrtaZenica case do you? It held that workers on a fixed 12 hour shift roster were entitled to 10 days at 12 hours per day, workers on fixed 8 hour rosters were entitled to 10 days at 8 hours pay and so on. These workers were rostered on fixed shift lengths. QF SH pilots are not. The AstraZenica case is not authority that workers with variable shift lengths automatically get 10 times their maximum possible shift length hours as an annual entitlement, as you suggest.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?

sorry what am I missing, if a pilot calls in sick don’t you still get paid the daily rate of your base wage for the day? Ie if your base is $18k a month and you’re sick 3 days, you still get $18k for the month. Or are you short changed and only receive a base of $16k plus ot

[Troo believer]

sorry what am I missing, if a pilot calls in sick don’t you still get paid the daily rate of your base wage for the day? Ie if your base is $18k a month and you’re sick 3 days, you still get $18k for the month. Or are you short changed and only receive a base of $16k plus ot

76 hours doesn’t go far. Probably 10 days maximum per year on average so make sure even for a sniffle you use your URTI days. That’s what they’re for. An URTI can be bacterial, fungal or viral. We all know what it feels like with the onset of a cold. Time to pull the pin and use an URTI. Simple. Gives an extra 5 days from memory.
700 hours per year more like 900 btw.

[shortshortz]

76 hours doesn’t go far. Probably 10 days maximum per year on average so make sure even for a sniffle you use your URTI days. That’s what they’re for. An URTI can be bacterial, fungal or viral. We all know what it feels like with the onset of a cold. Time to pull the pin and use an URTI. Simple. Gives an extra 5 days from memory.
700 hours per year more like 900 btw.


so is the argument then that you want more than 10 (plus URTI) sick days? Aren’t all other airlines similar

[Rated De]

sorry what am I missing, if a pilot calls in sick don’t you still get paid the daily rate of your base wage for the day? Ie if your base is $18k a month and you’re sick 3 days, you still get $18k for the month. Or are you short changed and only receive a base of $16k plus ot

What you are missing is that if 76 hours of duty is the personal leave (as it is with QF) the intent from FWA was that an 'average' day was 7.6 hours meaning that if one was ill, 7.6 hours was taken for each day the person was ill.
The Qantas interpretation is to deduct duty hours from the total. Therefore, if a duty day was 11.45 that is deducted from the 76 hours. If a pilot happened to be sick (for illustration purposes) for duty days each rostered to be 11.45, then annual personal leave is exhausted in 6.5 days.

[Rated De]

You really don't understand the AstrtaZenica case do you? It held that workers on a fixed 12 hour shift roster were entitled to 10 days at 12 hours per day, workers on fixed 8 hour rosters were entitled to 10 days at 8 hours pay and so on. These workers were rostered on fixed shift lengths. QF SH pilots are not. The AstraZenica case is not authority that workers with variable shift lengths automatically get 10 times their maximum possible shift length hours as an annual entitlement, as you suggest.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?

Have read the judgement in detail.
The notion that Qantas deduct duty hours rostered (ie 11.45) instead of an average 7.6 hours that provides an employee 10 days of personal leave is now illegal.

What is the average duty length for SH pilots?
That is a great question. Presumably where the duty time is greater than 7.6 hours Qantas could deduct 7.6 hours, (giving 10 days) they instead chose to deduct the actual duty hours. That it shortchanges pilots is axiomatic, the question is how much money is owed to each individual.
Qantas pilots meet the definition of shift workers.
Unless overturned Qantas owes its pilots a substantial amount of compensation.

Pick a number, $35 million, $50 million?
A great piece of leverage for a contract negotiation isn't it?

[ddrwk]

Qantas pilots meet the definition of shift workers.


Are you sure?

And why would Qantas owe pilots money?
I can see that might be the case where someone was forced to take unpaid leave due to running out of sick leave prior to being off work for 10 days in a given year, but you have used ALL pilots in your calculation. Given that sick leave is a potential cost, would not an increase to a pilots leave bank ensure NES compliance? Whereas a cash hand out would not?

As has been stated above, not all duties are 12 hours long. There is a conceivable scenario where depending on the duties planned when sick leave is taken that 76 duty hours means MORE than a 10 day entitlement.

[maggot]

The 76hr duty deduction is a complete farce and I agree with Rated De that it's not kosher
however, what happens to crew once out of the 76hr (employer) rort? Falls back to the old, handed down from the dispute, 3hr credit and you make up the rest... Which is also a complete (employer) rort!
Shame!

Point is any tally of supposed owed funds would need to take that into account, complicated as we're paid in credit hours which the duty hour deduction does not gel with

[Angle of Attack]

Principle in agreement reached, with roadshows to proceed, this little gem
[QUOTE][Ability for Qantas to inform pilots on the last sector of a pattern to ‘contact crewing on arrival’ via ACARS, rather than in person by ground staff./QUOTE]
ie, you can’t plan anything with a few days off with an AV in the middle, this will result in a 90% plus NO vote, they want to Longhaulize the short haul award without Longhaulizing the pay, the 50% DPC is an insignificant joke anyway. Contactibility is the last sacred bastion of the short haul award anyone voting up this has rocks in their head. Surely this is an in principle agreement by AIPA to deliver a heavy NO vote.

[SandyPalms]

Not getting involved in the greater fight, but couldn’t you be handed a note by ground staff to call crewing? The only change is the air bridge driver can save 30 seconds and not enter the flight deck as soon as the door opens?

[ScepticalOptomist]

I’m pretty sure we had the same system when we were flying the 767 domestically - contact was always via ACARS.

Is the contact requirement different if it’s a ground staffer handing you the note? Or is that not allowed currently?

I’m very interested in the outcome of this EBA - heading to that fleet in the near future.. Interested to hear what the troops like / dislike about any proposed EBA.

Regards.

[Angle of Attack]

No because you can do a quick change and leave as a passenger at the moment and bypass the ground staff requirement. 767 different ball game it was a long haul award. This will be destroyed so bad I can’t even believe it’s being presented.

[engine out]

Just don’t acknowledge the ACARS, simples.

[SandyPalms]

With respect Angle, you’d have to do that on every sector, every day, within 2 minutes of parking. I’m not sure that it’s really something to be worried about.

[Angle of Attack]

No it’s just the last sector of a pattern, at the moment. It’s about contactibility that’s the issue.

[SandyPalms]

Can you not be assigned flying within 5 days of the day of operation? I know it's about contactability. I'm just not sure it really makes any difference.
Do you change in the flight deck, and walk out of the flight deck and stand in the cabin before L1 is open on arrival in your base on the last sector of every trip? If you don't, I'd say it's not a big deal.

[ilikecheese]

What's the take on the 5 x 3% pay increase?
Is that the least of everyones worries?

[Rated De]

Are you sure?

And why would Qantas owe pilots money?
I can see that might be the case where someone was forced to take unpaid leave due to running out of sick leave prior to being off work for 10 days in a given year, but you have used ALL pilots in your calculation. Given that sick leave is a potential cost, would not an increase to a pilots leave bank ensure NES compliance? Whereas a cash hand out would not?

As has been stated above, not all duties are 12 hours long. There is a conceivable scenario where depending on the duties planned when sick leave is taken that 76 duty hours means MORE than a 10 day entitlement.

So what is the average tour of duty?
Do Qantas only deduct 7.6 hours? No they do not.

[Angle of Attack]

No we know it’s coming because we can see it on our roster, the ground staff waits up in the lounge so at the moment we leave via rear stairs or Jacobs ladder and get the hell outta there. These days they need flight ops staff not normal ground staff as they are all contractors. The push of an ACARS is easy organising specific staff is hard and we can bypass them anyway, so this will be voted down 80/20 at least.

[Angle of Attack]

The only way they can assign is physical person meeting you atm, unless your stupid enough to answer the phone. This will make it piss easy to fill your roster up with crap between days off.

[Rated De]

The only way they can assign is physical person meeting you atm, unless your stupid enough to answer the phone. This will make it piss easy to fill your roster up with crap between days off.

Is it a requirement to have a telephone?

Thanks to the Qantas domestic pilots who pointed out the following:

" In a negotiating period, we have had to get a new ipad, that itself requires updating via wi-fi. We have not been paid for that and clearly the expectation is we use our own wifi. Why is the union silent? Surely the company can pay for that?"

[SandyPalms]

Alright, Fair enough. I guess wifi has changed things. James Bond has nothing on you. Now that we have that sorted, what are the other issues?

[ROH111]

Angle of Attack,

if you are a QF pilot, you’re an embarrassment.

you get paid the most out of any domestic airline operation based in Australia and you choose to run and change uniform to escape ground staff?

Grow balls, to start with most 737 FO’s are on $225,000 gross, NOT including super.

They want you to work, just work!

[cloudsurfng]

Addresses absolutely nothing. It’s a NO from me.

[Rated De]

Man up, grow some ******* balls, and get a clue about the EBA you are operating under, most 737 FO’s are on $225,000 gross, NOT including super and you have to go around being a bitch about your terms and conditions?

Could you, for the purposes of clarity explain where that figure comes from?

[FightDeck]

Given times of consecutive bonuses and consecutive record profits it seems a very poor deal.
The economy could slow and you have zero salary protections.
If the company’s mantra is you haven’t been rostered below 74 hours for 10 years then they can afford an MGH of at least
74 hours.
Nothing to address flying lost due training or prior to commencing duty. DPC 50% is rubbish.
Can we get professional negotiators please to assist and stop this nonsense with poorly trained volunteers and getting rolled every EBA. If it’s hitting a block then work to rule like Tiger.
Millions in the bank. Enough amateur hour. AFAP could be worth a look if not.
Im hoping AIPA expect a NO vote. If they sell this hard then I can see members walk.

[crosscutter]

most 737 FO’s are on $225,000 gross, NOT including super

That’s 40k out. Yes there is the CIP but that still won’t get you anywhere near 225k. If one did 950 credit hours a year, and you add in 10k for allowances, that would require an hourly rate of $226. Reality is an hourly rate of $180-185.

why be so misleading?

[dragon man]

So as far as I’m told, sign off reduced by 15 minutes and no minimum daily credit for 5 x 3%. Holding back pay and the bonus over your head. Hope the short haul pilots vote it down.

[crosscutter]

Pilots are still wearing all the risk. The negotiated outcome dances around the issue. DPC is a good idea but 50% isn’t enough. No protection for day of ops cancellations. No protection for training displacements. No minimum daily credit. And a base pay less than 54hrs a month.

The window dressing will be magnificent, but in terms of risk vs reward, the status quo remains...pilots wear all the risk in this EA, in a cyclical industry where the next downturn is never far away.

Good personal leave outcome nevertheless! It’s going to be an interesting vote.

[knobbycobby]

Protections need to be in place before commencing a pattern.
Could be that Qantas just make an earlier call on cancelling sectors or days work prior to even signing on.
What im saying is then you could potentially only get DPC 50% of 50-80%.
Incentive for the company to just notify you prior to duty or day before of sector losses rather than wait and tell you during day of ops.
MGH not addressed is not acceptable

[ROH111]

That’s 40k out. Yes there is the CIP but that still won’t get you anywhere near 225k. If one did 950 credit hours a year, and you add in 10k for allowances, that would require an hourly rate of $226. Reality is an hourly rate of $180-185.

why be so misleading?



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x372/b7b3ebaf_8f2e_4afa_91b4_64a732c0e7c1_7c0376529047b6993b01493 368c979203547a069.jpeg
Yeah, no worries man

[crosscutter]

to start with most FO’s are on $225,000 gross

From QF payroll:

The average FO 737 gross figure was ... $199,270


That payslip shown is right on the highest for the year....and not indicative of the average worker....(with a life)

With an hourly rate of $195...times that by 1000 hours, you get to...$195000 only. Allowances, CIP. You are an outlier. Nowhere near average. But congratulations.

[ROH111]

From QF payroll:

The average FO 737 gross figure was ... $199,270


That payslip shown is right on the highest for the year....and not indicative of the average worker....(with a life)


would you like a copy of my roster and we can compare, lives?

[What The]

Put your payslip away Nathan

[crosscutter]

No.

I care about honest figures instead of faceless written diarrhoea deliberately distorting the facts

I don’t disagree with some of your general points nevertheless. We all do what’s best for our circumstances.. I shouldn’t have added in (that bit).

[Johhny Utah]

B737 FO salary. Year 3 pay. Division 3 super. I don’t have my name in the book. I don’t swap trips chasing hours. Includes 8 weeks in total (2 x 4 week blocks) of annual leave.
Seems more representative of ‘average’ FO pay. Take home pay of ~$137k.
(To clarify - the ‘deductions’ includes all salary sacrifice & salary disbursement to other accounts, so take home pay was ~$137K)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1060x531/e6bfe35a_75d1_417a_8e47_49588df26912_b586c13b72a62e7ae00c918 fb9d65f9f90e33ad3.jpeg

[Johhny Utah]

The number on my payslip is pretty close to the ‘average’ B737 FO pay as per the infamous screenshot that was circulating recently...

[Arthur D]

Does this include Super?

[PoppaJo]

Super should be on another line. I’ve not see a payslip inclusive of super in total net/gross

[knobbycobby]

Personally I think it’s a stupid idea to post payslips on a public forum.
But super is included in gross pay top RHS on payslips. So that figure is bonus allowances super the lot.

[ExtraShot]

Personally I think it’s a stupid idea to post payslips on a public forum


+1

Arguably the most insidious part of this proposal seems to be 5/6 day international trips, without any of the protections of Long Haul (5:30MDC, Pattern Protection and MBT to name a few). One would hope there’s more detail to it in the draft EA when it comes out, but based on past experiences you can only imagine how the company might like to ‘interpret’ anything not set in stone.

[crosscutter]

absolutely...especially so looking forward....with a new type that could potentially fly an extra hour or so...if you were the company... you'd be trying to transfer as much medium haul flying to the SHEA as possible.

[Rated De]

+1

Arguably the most insidious part of this proposal seems to be 5/6 day international trips, without any of the protections of Long Haul (5:30MDC, Pattern Protection and MBT to name a few). One would hope there’s more detail to it in the draft EA when it comes out, but based on past experiences you can only imagine how the company might like to ‘interpret’ anything not set in stone.



Like personal leave at 76 hours of duty and deciding that taking duty hours rostered from the total reducing the intended sick/personal leave required under FWA.

[OhForSure]

We’re bringing a butter knife to a drone fight. ��

No offence to our trusty little knife, but in this modern age of industrial warfare, it’s a vastly inferior weapon. It’s no wonder we get wiped off the map every time... Pilots should stick to flying and let the pros negotiate our futures.

[Rated De]

We’re bringing a butter knife to a drone fight. ��

No offence to our trusty little knife, but in this modern age of industrial warfare, it’s a vastly inferior weapon. It’s no wonder we get wiped off the map every time... Pilots should stick to flying and let the pros negotiate our futures.

As is understood broadly, having employees removed from the process protects the employee and ensures that nothing is agreed to in haste.
That is why the other side always has their faceless team behind a 'judas sheep' (like a former Union President parachuted in as an IR negotiator) while behind the curtain IR drive their agenda.
That Tiger pilots secured a very much better outcome suggests that a redistribution is overdue.
That pilots think they must somehow represent themselves when their opponent uses teams of IR behind the curtain is incredible.

To what position will the current 'team' of negotiators be 'promoted' to in management for their acquiescence?

[Beer Baron]

That Tiger pilots secured a very much better outcome suggests that a redistribution is overdue.
That pilots think they must somehow represent themselves when their opponent uses teams of IR behind the curtain is incredible.
You are clearly trying to suggest a link here that I dare say you have no evidence for. So did AFAP use pilot negotiators or external professional negotiators to secure their new EA gains?

[engine out]

I’ve always thought we should have professional negotiators since I joined AIPA. However to be fair to the people who put in the time they are generally bashing their heads against a brick wall. You can only negotiate if the company are willing to, and Qantas isn’t, why would they? They like the short haul award as it is. The only two things they would want is contactability (something SH pilots won’t give up) and the ability to roster longer trips. Without forcing the companies hand, all the things the pilots want will never happen.

[Vindiesel]

Who or what is a professional negotiator? Someone please provide a name and link to the website or qualifications of such a person and then please explain precisely how they would get a better deal.

[engine out]

Google Industrial Relations Negotiators I’m sure you’ll find a few pages of companies that specialise in this field. What they do is take the emotion out of it, and look at the long game.

[Sparrows.]

Who or what is a professional negotiator? Someone please provide a name and link to the website or qualifications of such a person and then please explain precisely how they would get a better deal.

There are whole subjects at universities devoted to the topic. It’s a speciality and understanding the techniques, tactics, emotions and other variables, a proper negotiator will get a better deal than you and I.

For example the New Zealand union sent their negotiators overseas and gave them proper training. Coming home with experience to do integrative (increasing the pie) negotiating rather than distributive (fighting for a larger slice of the pie), ANZ happily tried it, whereas Jetstar would only negotiate distributively.

Done correctly a integrative negotiation usually leads to both parties being happy with the deal rather than both parties usually being left disappointed with a distributive negotiation.

[ConfigFull]

Emphatic +1 for the professional negotiators; this is amateur-hour stuff and frankly, a disgrace.

Is anyone going to mention the international flying elephant in the room? The one that AIPA left out of their summary?

[crosscutter]

Is anyone going to mention the international flying elephant in the room? The one that AIPA left out of their summary?

​​​​​​​well....what on earth are you going on about? 🧐

[theheadmaster]

While doing the suggested Google search for professional negotiators, most of the results were for courses to help businesses combat the good negotiators that unions provide.

Also found this link: https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-become-a-professional-negotiator

Essentially it says that the best negotiators are those who are already subject matter experts who then learn specific negotiation skills.

[GApilut]

I want to know why we are talking about super and allowances as total gross. At JQ our payslips are different so our Gross salary doesn't include any of that. As level 3 FO i did 178k plus allowances and plus super. East coast working harder so their gross would be around 200 plus

[ClearanceClarence1]

I want to know why we are talking about super and allowances as total gross. At JQ our payslips are different so our Gross salary doesn't include any of that. As level 3 FO i did 178k plus allowances and plus super. East coast working harder so their gross would be around 200 plus

Thats awesome GA man, I am a QF737FO earning similar. Good to see champion.

[Ragnor]

Thats awesome GA man, I am a QF737FO earning similar. Good to see champion.


I wonder how many WDOs GA man did for the year? To earn 200k out of SY I would be doing 90hrs+ a month plus living by the phone to get all the WDOs working my buttocks off.

[Street garbage]

So..when the inevitably gets voted down,and we miss out on our Bonus, where to from here Mr WW?
I thought it would be close to 60/40, but with no back pay..snowballs chance.
The 6 day pattern request is apparently they were looking at Darwin- Singapore- Mumbai.....

[Street garbage]

Put your payslip away Nathan
I don't think it Nathan's, I think it's Ben's...

[maggot]

So..when the inevitably gets voted down,and we miss out on our Bonus, where to from here Mr WW?
I thought it would be close to 60/40, but with no back pay..snowballs chance.
The 6 day pattern request is apparently they were looking at Darwin- Singapore- Mumbai.....

SIN-BOM-SIN BOC 2 crew? Crikey
Vote no for that bollocks

[TineeTim]

SIN-BOM-SIN BOC 2 crew?

2100nm. 10 hour max duty BOC so don’t think that’s doable. Might be possible, but it would be very, very close.

For everyone reading who’s curious, a lot of what’s written here is flat out wrong. Ask guys who have been in SH awhile or read the award yourself and critically think about it. Too many LH guys are quick to comment on something they simply don’t understand. That’s not to say it’s all beer and skittles, just to say, look at it yourself and work it out. You’ll then see the utter B S posted around. PM me if you want. I’ve been in SH longer than I care to remember, I can at least point you to the answer 🍺🍺

[dragon man]

Sin-Bom-Sin on the 747 with relief was shattering you would want to go near that.

[SandyPalms]

SIN-BOM-SIN is almost exactly the same distance as PER-SIN-PER and it can’t be done as a return.

[Arthur D]

SIN-BOM-SIN BOC 2 crew?

2100nm. 10 hour max duty BOC so don’t think that’s doable. Might be possible, but it would be very, very close.

For everyone reading who’s curious, a lot of what’s written here is flat out wrong. Ask guys who have been in SH awhile or read the award yourself and critically think about it. Too many LH guys are quick to comment on something they simply don’t understand. That’s not to say it’s all beer and skittles, just to say, look at it yourself and work it out. You’ll then see the utter B S posted around. PM me if you want. I’ve been in SH longer than I care to remember, I can at least point you to the answer 🍺🍺

tinee - just because you are right, doesn’t mean they care or want to listen.

the LH EA is an archaic agreement holding back many careers to favour a few Senior fat cats ( you’ll be where I am one day sonny......)

[SandyPalms]

The SH contract restricts international ops to the equator (with exception of SIN) so BOM can’t be done by SH crew.

[Tankengine]

The SH contract restricts international ops to the equator (with exception of SIN) so BOM can’t be done by SH crew.
You do understand this is an EA negotiation? Perhaps that restriction has been lifted.

[Rated De]

You do understand this is an EA negotiation? Perhaps that restriction has been lifted.

Such a substantive amendment to an existing agreement ought in the first instance have been communicated to the pilot membership.
Has it occurred?

[Tankengine]

Such a substantive amendment to an existing agreement ought in the first instance have been communicated to the pilot membership.
Has it occurred?
Go to a roadshow and ask the question there. I am LH and not on top of all the SH news.
Whether a change like this is “substantive” or not is another issue.

Edit: after perusing another forum with a bit less rumour content this change is apparently a company ask.

[FightDeck]

Something worth considering.
A crew member recently made me aware that the 787 gets full night credits of 33.3% on 2 pilot operations,
and only slightly less at 25% night credits on 3 pilot operations. The original AIPA projections showed a lot of Asia flying like HKG and HND etc. AIPA EA negotiator at the time suggested the 787 would most likely take a lot of A330 Asia flying long term.

Would seem the company may wish to push a lot of back of the clock Asia flying to SH without protections.
Lots of 6 day patterns back of the clock flying.
I had heard rumoured double night sectors on either 738s or the A321XLR if they order them.
With a 4700nm range that’s easily a Tokyo or Bangkok range.
More likely to be thinner routes like India or Indonesia But that might only be initially.

A lot lot more concrete information needs to be provided. Seems yet another EA has all this secret info like the last EA.
Forgive me but I’m more than sceptical. Especially given the last President selling the EA is just by coincidence negotiating on behalf of Qantas.
To back up the need for a professional negotiator at AIPA assisting, Qantas have a large negotiating and legal team at Freehills advising their team.
Pilots can by all means be the main ones driving a deal however they are not expert professionals. Why DIY when you can have professional assistance just as Qantas do.
As Shakespeare wisely said, They doth protest too much methinks. In AIPAs EA and Execs case it seems relevant.

[crosscutter]

This lifting of SHEA geographic restrictions (if true) is significant.

QF wanted the industrial umpire to intervene on the LH pow wow. Maybe this time it would be in the pilots interest for a determination? Just a thought bubble.

You do not want to muddy the waters when there is an existing SH and LH agreement in place. The 1989 contract (which it still is) clearly defined the flying geographic restrictions. It seems the company wants a LH contract on 1989 SH conditions.

[knobbycobby]

The Integration award should cover it however back of the clock 6 day patterns to shorter range Asian destinations in SH warrant different protections.
Lack of MGH and cancellation of duties that happens daily is as much of a concern.

[Rated De]

caveat emptor.

That sitting opposite the current bunch of 'union negotiators' is the immediate former president of AIPA, now a lead IR negotiator ought suggest that the selection of negotiators, process and outomes are skewed the company way.

[theheadmaster]

If union negotiators are presumed to be not skilled enough to be effective, why is having an ex-union negotiator now working for Qantas a problem?

[Rated De]

If union negotiators are presumed to be not skilled enough to be effective, why is having an ex-union negotiator now working for Qantas a problem?

Effective for whom?

The membership or the company, the premise of your question is not clear?

[Lookleft]

If union negotiators are presumed to be not skilled enough to be effective, why is having an ex-union negotiator now working for Qantas a problem?

Because the ex-union negotiator has access to the full QF resources as well as the inside knowledge of how the union negotiates. I think it is time that AIPA employ the skills of a professional negotiator for all EBA's that they are representing. The days of the line pilot negotiator are gone and people who negotiate for a living are required. To do anything else is to give the Company the advantage, game ,set and match.

[Rated De]

Because the ex-union negotiator has access to the full QF resources as well as the inside knowledge of how the union negotiates. I think it is time that AIPA employ the skills of a professional negotiator for all EBA's that they are representing. The days of the line pilot negotiator are gone and people who negotiate for a living are required. To do anything else is to give the Company the advantage, game ,set and match.

Given Little Napoleon stated openly the savings of the 787 agreement were in the order of 30%, the Stream Lead, despite denials is now a lead IR negotiator. Ten pieces of silver.. Members ought be asking what the pay off is for delivering similar savings to the company?

Arm's length negotiations are the benchmark of professional negotiation.

[What The]

He can only negotiate what the pilots are willing to accept.
You can always say no.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

You do not want to muddy the waters when there is an existing SH and LH agreement in place. The 1989 contract (which it still is) clearly defined the flying geographic restrictions. It seems the company wants a LH contract on 1989 SH conditions.
Does Network, with their 320s, have any geographical restrictions?

[Rated De]

Does Network, with their 320s, have any geographical restrictions?

Have they any pilots to fly them?
Something the former AIPA President has also been involved in, ensuring cheap pilots from overseas, rewarded handsomely for undermining the very pilots he claimed to represent.

[Angle of Attack]

Been away for a while but it’s not about sneaking off the aircraft every sector, you KNOW when they want to assign a duty because it comes up in unnotified duties in the roster, I’m happy to accept duties signing on and when on an overnight but it should be by ground staff on arrival last sector of a pattern, not ACARS, it will make it too easy to silly willy throw crap on your line in the middle of days off.

[Rated De]

Been away for a while but it’s not about sneaking off the aircraft every sector, you KNOW when they want to assign a duty because it comes up in unnotified duties in the roster, I’m happy to accept duties signing on and when on an overnight but it should be by ground staff on arrival last sector of a pattern, not ACARS, it will make it too easy to silly willy throw crap on your line in the middle of days off.



As pilots of two European carriers argued, rather successfully, if a company wants to further destroy any amenity left in order to "drive efficiency" it costs a bucket load of money.

There are few office staff working 60 hours of duty a "week"

What precisely is the upside for the pilot body to forego any remaining amenity?
Or will Little Napoleon, ever the one trick pony threaten to outsource more?

[Angle of Attack]

If there is ever a time to stand up to this crap now is the time, it will never be better as pilots. Bring on PIA and fair work rulings if they want it, I’ll take it.

[crosscutter]

If there is ever a time to stand up to this crap now is the time, it will never be better as pilots. Bring on PIA and fair work rulings if they want it, I’ll take it.

Fairwork doesn’t recognise good times or bad times. History suggests they don’t change much.

If pilots could demonstrate the company has changed behaviour over the life of the SHEA, and the requests were reasonable, some positive change is possible. Eg cancellations, loss of flying due training.

With the expectation the company won’t agree to much, it may be the best way forward. Working to rule right now is probably the most effective strategy...but pilots are too piss weak.

[Angle of Attack]

Exactly! I’d rather keep the status quo and get 3% and the sick leave provisions rather than this crappy offer.

[Angle of Attack]

If you look at the offer I honestly believe PIA and then arbitration will give a better outcome, I’ve worked in Fair Work 20 years ago and also been on the COM in far more militant factory unions 25+ years ago, I know the laws have changed but I know them pretty well, I’m convinced a NO vote is a no brainer, and if they don’t come to the party like the last 2 votes PIA and arbitration has to be better! Keep trying to crew those Network planes buddies!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Good luck guys. I wouldn't worry about the ex AIPA President sitting across the table. He wasn't in the position long enough to know anything of use and he doesn't have friends inside there now.

FYI LAMEs are at breaking point with our negotiations with the company and are considering PIA. They just want every single thing their way and will not budge, they haven't even made us a crap offer after 9 months of negotiations.

They are struggling to get planes out though due to massive understaffing that they refuse to fix.

[dragon man]

Good luck guys. I wouldn't worry about the ex AIPA President sitting across the table. He wasn't in the position long enough to know anything of use and he doesn't have friends inside there now.

FYI LAMEs are at breaking point with our negotiations with the company and are considering PIA. They just want every single thing their way and will not budge, they haven't even made us a crap offer after 9 months of negotiations.

They are struggling to get planes out though due to massive understaffing that they refuse to fix.

Good luck, I hope you are successful, they are arrogant pricks.

[wombat watcher]

Good luck guys. I wouldn't worry about the ex AIPA President sitting across the table. He wasn't in the position long enough to know anything of use and he doesn't have friends inside there now.

FYI LAMEs are at breaking point with our negotiations with the company and are considering PIA. They just want every single thing their way and will not budge, they haven't even made us a crap offer after 9 months of negotiations.

They are struggling to get planes out though due to massive understaffing that they refuse to fix.

I expect you are relying on your track record.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

they haven't even made us a crap offer after 9 months of negotiations.

Airline negotiations 101, wear em down and induce “negotiation fatigue”. Keep the faith guys!

[Street garbage]

Keep calm and Vote No.

[Street garbage]

I expect you are relying on your track record.
..And I am sure Management Trolls are relying on theirs...
You been doing some reading WW? Like, the SH Sick Leave Provisions? Care to say where the 15 days come from? Or as you like the rest of QF management, unable to say when you are wrong.?..like Red Roo, Jetstar HK? How much did that misadventure cost us?

[V-Jet]

Nice to hear from you Fed Sec. Keep up the good work.

[Rated De]

Downside risk rests with the company.

The optics of industrial unrest for Little Napoleon are horrendous.
Their metrics are horrible, his achievements minimal unless one considers social discourse, excessive executive remuneration and interfering with sponsor activity some sort of corporate win.

That he spent a considerable amount of money gagging Lucinda Holdforth is telling: the planning, premeditation and ultimately execution of the grounding were as manufactured as the decline.

He is a one trick pony, but revisiting 2011 is a very high risk strategy.

[V-Jet]

Downside risk rests with the company.

The optics of industrial unrest for Little Napoleon are horrendous.

He is a one trick pony, but revisiting 2011 is a very high risk strategy.

Succinctly put.