Two german Eurofighters have crashed

[txl]

Developing story: German Luftwaffe just confirmed local news reports that two Luftwaffe fighter jets have collided and crashed over the Müritz area in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. Possibly Eurofighters. Both pilots reportedly ejected, SAR operations are underway.

https://twitter.com/ostseewelle_de/status/1143130760121081861

[Less Hair]

Close to lake Müritz, not far from Rostock northeast Germany, two german Eurofighters have crashed this early afternoon. Possibly colliding during training. A third Eurofighter has been close and is undamaged.
Some sources say both pilots are okay, two chutes were observed. Debris is said to have hit some populated area.
pic:
https://www.ostseewelle.de/nachrichten/eurofighter-in-mueritzregion-kollidiert

[mickjoebill]

Pictures from twitter and are not verified.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D91FfEYWkAEnERp?format=jpg&name=medium


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D91IV0fW4AAm7Wg.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D91IV0kXkAIlj4s.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D909xdIXUAAz7qs.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D91Kc-yW4AAbgdY.jpg

[gearlever]

One pilot found alive hanging in a tree.

[mickjoebill]

On Twitter the German language newspaper Nordkurier is reporting the second pilot is sadly deceased.
Nordkurier report that a third Typhoon was in the air and observed two ejections.
https://www.nordkurier.de/

[eagleflyer]

Unfortunately local police has confirmed one pilot did not survive the accident.

[dead_pan]

Awful news. Thoughts + prayers to those involved

[Less Hair]

Sad news indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=_R3-SxQYABI

https://www.facebook.com/thomas.steffan.13

[BVRAAM]

Awful news this afternoon.

Ruhe in Frieden.

[Fly Aiprt]

Pilot recovery in a tree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=24&v=l47snoPCGTg

[BDAttitude]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1344/9d4fbe80_93ae_45c3_87fb_3e46f5c0b5cc_jpeg_d5301be42a63e26a4f bc5fbd9869db59cbefda30.jpg
https://img.nzz.ch/S=W2000/O=75/https://nzz-img.s3.amazonaws.com/2019/6/25/9d4fbe80-93ae-45c3-87fb-3e46f5c0b5cc.jpeg

Asbestos?
DU trim weights?
Reportedly no ammunition on board.

[ORAC]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x576/image_457d4ae98da0adf4163b7a3610e57e73249433c6.jpeg

[superplum]

Asbestos?
DU trim weights?
Reportedly no ammunition on board.

Carbon Fibre and the like.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Hydrazine ?

[VX275]

Why would one need this gear[/b] ]
In the words of the Fireman giving fire training to a Vigilant VGS. "Man-made Mineral Fibres". You don't want any of the small pieces of glass/carbon/boron fibres that they make modern aircraft from getting into your lungs, especially if they are also coated in the nasty products of combustion.
Its probably the reason why we decided that if a Vigilant crashed and burnt we would all stand well up wind and watch, waiting for the fire service to arrive rather than attempt to fight the fire ourselves. HQAC never having thought to issue respirators for the VGS staff they expected to provide fire cover

[Less Hair]

Both Crash Survivable Memory Units (CSMU) have been found.

[BDAttitude]

Hydrazine ?

Where from?


In the words of the Fireman giving fire training to a Vigilant VGS. "Man-made Mineral Fibres". You don't want any of the small pieces of glass/carbon/boron fibres that they make modern aircraft from getting into your lungs, especially if they are also coated in the nasty products of combustion.
Its probably the reason why we decided that if a Vigilant crashed and burnt we would all stand well up wind and watch, waiting for the fire service to arrive rather than attempt to fight the fire ourselves. HQAC never having thought to issue respirators for the VGS staff they expected to provide fire cover

These fibres are for sure not healty in your lungs, but one of these should do (at least that's what we have used when doing repair work ):
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/232x225/unbenannt_9e636b3348b688eee0aa20a810ea67b51641c8fe.png

[beardy]

I suppose adequate for repair work; I don't suppose that the people in the picture had any consideration for repairs.

[rattman]

Asbestos?
DU trim weights?
Reportedly no ammunition on board.

Know a firefighter, they are starting to wear full rebreather suits for even standard car fires. Apparently burning carbon fibre breathed in could cause asbestos /silicosis like diseases

[Tashengurt]

Rescue crews carry the kit for worse case scenarios. If they carried the gear to escalate gradually for every risk they'd need an artic' to drag it all around!

[weemonkey]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x576/image_457d4ae98da0adf4163b7a3610e57e73249433c6.jpeg
Fin or seat rail?

Tragic loss of life. RIP.

[Distant Voice]

The state of the German Air Force

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/germanys-air-force-dying-slow-death-25157


DV

[msbbarratt]

Know a firefighter, they are starting to wear full rebreather suits for even standard car fires. Apparently burning carbon fibre breathed in could cause asbestos /silicosis like disease.

Knowing something of the chemicals released in a car fire, (including hydrofluoric acid, released by certain plastics as they combust) I can't say I blame them for taking care. I've heard of police officers who, having poked around inside burnt out car wrecks, have had the bones in their fingers dissolved away after getting them wet in a puddle of water in the bodywork.

[geniculate]

RAF Mountain Rescue Service carry industrial respirators (Not the GS respirator) as standard for such crashes to protect from the fibre hazard, plus from the products of combustion.

[Distant Voice]

I understand that the German Typhoons are fitted with the same Collision Warning System as that fitted to RAF Typhoons.


DV

[Bob Viking]

We all understand and appreciate your crusade to see a CWS fitted to all UK fast jets.

However if, as reported, this was an air combat sortie then even if there had been one fitted it would have been very unlikely to have been of any assistance.

A breakdown in SA (remember, none of us know what actually happened yet) can happen for many reasons but during highly dynamic manoeuvring it is very unlikely that any CWS already invented or one in the pipeline could prevent a MAC during such circumstances.

Please don’t take this as a criticism, just want to avoid misunderstandings.

BV

[golfbananajam]

Both Crash Survivable Memory Units (CSMU) have been found.


Are they what we mere mortals know as black boxes?

[Less Hair]

Yes. Chip recorders just not civilian configured. Both are secured now yesterday one was still within the wreckage.

[ORAC]

The German air force tweeted on Tuesday afternoon that the pilot killed in the crash was 27 years old and had 400 hours flight experience. The pilot who survived was more experienced, with more than 3,700 flight hours.

[Hot 'n' High]

I understand that the German Typhoons are fitted with the same Collision Warning System as that fitted to RAF Typhoons.


DV

Have the RAF Typhoons got a CWS yet? I know that, over the past few years, there has been quite a bit in the Press about the Hawk and Typhoon fleets getting a Mod of some sort and there was the Tornado TCAS programme a few years back. I thought 2019 was when the Hawk and Typhoon fleets were due to start getting a system. Genuine question. Tho, as BV says, doubt that would have helped in this case where it sounds they were conducting an ACS. I believe that's why there is usually a "knock it off" height band in case SA is lost at any time and so one can bail up into that and then get the picture back.

Mind you, that concept focused the mind when I was transiting the Lakes after conducting a pipeline photo survey contract a few years ago. Deliberately kept it high heading South with various FJ traffic clearly weaving through the valleys below at LL. Thought did cross my mind that, if one of them had an issue down there (bird strike or whatever) they'd just pull up out the valley and it would only be seconds before they would be through my level as H 'n' H and his phot man puttered on South! And I'd never have seen it comming - even if opposite direction. :uhoh:

Always so sad when this sort of accident happens and thank goodness one got out. RIP the other. V sad. H 'n' H

[Distant Voice]

Have the RAF Typhoons got a CWS yet? I know that, over the past few years, there has been quite a bit in the Press about the Hawk and Typhoon fleets getting a Mod of some sort and there was the Tornado TCAS programme a few years back. I thought 2019 was when the Hawk andsoftewa Typhoon fleets were due to start getting a system.

Hot 'n' High you are quite right, I was being facetious. As long as 2* Duty Holders continue to sign off Safety Statements based on safety features planned for the future not what are currently in operation (ALARP - Temporal), aircraft like Typhoon, and F35, will never get fitted with a CWS. Statements such as, "I assess that the RtL as a result of MAC between a Typhoon and commercial air transport (CAT) is both ALARP and Tolerable [use to be the other way round]. However, whilst work on a Typhoon CWS is progressing, the MOD's operation of Typhoon without CWS does not align with civilian safety standards", are meaningless. Not only that, current installations do not align with RA 1205 and MAA/Def Stan 00-970; the latter stating, "All crewed aircraft types shall be fitted with an Airborne Collision Avoidance System (ACAS)" .The planned Enhanced Collision Awareness System (ECAS) is a software fudge which falls well short of the goals set following the Moray Firth Tornado collision.

In a recent Parliamentary Written Question, Douglas Ross asked, "What is the timescale for the Typhoon aircraft to be compliant with Part 13 sub paragraph 1.1.9.1 of MAA/Def Stan 00-970 (Aircraft Collision Avoidance System)". The answer he got back from MoD was, "The Typhoon Enhanced Collision Awareness System (ECAS) will enter service with the United Kingdom's Typhoon fleet later this year. The Typhoon ECAS is a collision awareness system. As such, it is not required to comply with Def/Stan 00-970 Part 13 sub paragraph 1.1.9.1 and there are no current plans to do so." . The same reply was given to a similar question asked about the F35.

DV

[Hot 'n' High]

Hot 'n' High you are quite right, I was being facetious. .......

DV

Ahhhh! Sadly, H 'n' H can be a bit(?) slow on the uptake at times! My humble apologies. And re your background explanation I see what you mean. I have also just found the July 2018 T ODH SS (redacted) on line which discusses the strategy/hints at the limitations of the proposed ECAS, even if no real system detail is given in that top level document, particularly WRT Stage 2 ECAS. But I have enough understanding of TCAS vs L16 to see some of the issues.

As an aside, really interesting to see Para 7 of the SS, which I originally assumed was fallout from the Typhoon/A400M "Humberside" Airprox which, of course, links back in to the ECAS/TCAS debate as well as some staff shortages at Swanwick. However, it seems the mitigation talked of at Para 7 of the SS was not followed on the day of the Airprox (3/8/18). So the issue which Para 7 was designed to prevent, occurred some 2 weeks after the SS was issued. Even the Airprox Report did not make the point that the agreed process was not followed despite the SS wording suggesting the mitigation was already SOP! It seems, even, that the Airprox Board may not have been aware of Para 7 of the SS - no mention was made of it, even in the Safety Barrier Assessment. You know, I think the 2nd sentence of Para 8 is probably the best understatement ever re perception!

Anyway, not going to cause any more Thread Drift here ... but your point well made! Just wondered if I'd missed something - but your subtlety was way too much for me to fathom out sadly so thanks for the nudge back on track! :ok:

Back on topic, as I said earlier, so desperately sad that Training once again causes such a loss.... :sad:

H 'n' H

[Distant Voice]

You know, I think the 2nd sentence of Para 8 is probably the best understatement ever re perception!

The Statement at para 8, under the heading 'RtL Currently Escalated to SDH Level', is exactly the same as that in the final paragraph of the SS dated 17 Dec 2014 signed by the previous ODH. Nothing changed in almost four years, and now we know that there is no intention to install CWS. Someone should inform the current ODH so that he can adjust his statement.

The other thing that I have always found amazing is that ODHs declare risk Tolerable and ALARP by passing it up the line. It is if they believe the risk disappears by doing that.

DV

[Hot 'n' High]

..............

The other thing that I have always found amazing is that ODHs declare risk Tolerable and ALARP by passing it up the line. It is if they believe the risk disappears by doing that.

DV

Or, maybe the ODH just ensuring that they will have company in the Dock, should there ever be a Court Case involving the topic! Doesn't prevent a crunch should one occur tho! "Tolerable" and "ALARP" are v. subjective - without the safety analysis behind them to give them substance. To get a "Catastrophic" down from "no way!" to something "tolerable" you have to push the probabilities out a loooong way. And yet, just 2 weeks after the 2018 SS was issued, bingo - an Airprox involving a Typhoon. The irony being, that time, it was RAF on RAF - tho it was traffic out of Humberside! Maybe a gentle nudge by the Fates ahead of something else? I hope not......... H 'n' H

[Timelord]

Does anyone understand how a CAS would work during air combat training? The fighter’s job being to get close to, and point at another aircraft whilst the CAS is trying to stop you doing exactly that. The continual “Traffic, Traffic, climb, climb, descend descend” of current systems would train the pilot to ignore the warnings or to turn it off, both of which would be counter productive.

Similarly, there is not much challenge in acquiring and identifying the opposition if they are appearing on your CAS display.

[pr00ne]

Timelord,

Switch it off?

[Hot 'n' High]

Does anyone understand how a CAS would work during air combat training? ........ there is not much challenge in acquiring and identifying the opposition if they are appearing on your CAS display.


While not a FJJ, you'd never use this in planned ACT for the reasons you cited – so there is always a risk in that activity which will only ever be mitigated with "knock it off" bands or similar should one jet lose SA on the other/rest. It will never be risk-free for participants. But the training should be in NOTAMed airspace with the equivalent of a Range Safety Officer with radar cover in case of intrusion by other non-participatory traffic bimbling along. But often I’d suspect the RSO cannot even separate the actual participants – let alone deconflict them it is such a dynamic environment!

The real risks we are addressing here are simple transits or LL transit training etc and conflicts with GA or, even worse, airline traffic. As I mentioned earlier, transiting the Lakes with FJs whizzing below me really focused my mind. I'd have been far happier had the Mil traffic had TCAS. If one had pulled up following a bird strike and then got a TCAS TA, at least they could have booted in some rudder or released a bit of backpressure and altered the climb trajectory. It would have made their day a bit worse (“Ahhhg, NOW what?!!!”) but they would at least have “seen” me. So, why didn’t I go round the Lakes? Risk assessment vs commercial expediency! My judgement call. I decided to fly the route …. but I would have been far happier had I known TCAS was there in the FJ cockpits. And as a flying bod and a tax payer and having had several decades in the Mil ….. before "cost" is mentioned, I can have my say!

Sadly what may have happened in Germany is probably one of the “costs” to realistic training. For decades tho, the Mil have been having “events” in the open FIR in transits etc – and that’s really where we are talking I guess. But that is just my view…….. FWIW! I’ll bug out here – before I’m banned for Thread Drift!

Cheers, H ‘n’ H

[Timelord]

Timelord,

Switch it off?

Exactly. So if the Germans were, as reported, conducting ACT, a CAS would not have prevented the collision.

[Fortissimo]

Mid-airs during ATC usually don't end well. There is also a possibility that this might have been a low closure collision during close formation pre or post split. We don't know, nor will we until the Luftwaffe inquiry has done its thing.

[c52]

The a/c are reported as nine years old with 1000 hours - maybe one flight per aircraft per week. Is the general sentiment that that's ok, or should a taxpayer think they're being ripped off?

[Distant Voice]

And yet, just 2 weeks after the 2018 SS was issued, bingo - an Airprox involving a Typhoon. The irony being, that time, it was RAF on RAF - tho it was traffic out of Humberside! Maybe a gentle nudge by the Fates ahead of something else? I hope not......... H 'n' H

It's even worse. At the time the SS was signed there had been two recent Class B near misses involving Lossiemouth Typhoons and passenger carrying civil aircraft. One on 14 June 2017, involving a Jetstream 41 out of Aberdeen and the other on 25 August 2017, again out of Aberdeen, involving a Saab 2000. The Duty Holder Concept, as it has become known, is not fit for purpose. The person responsible for meeting the operational objectives also determines when a platform is ALARP. Whilst Duty Holders can be called on to defend their SS in a court of law, in the event of an accident, that has never happened. All attempts to get the Moray Firth Tornado collision case to court has been thwarted by the Scottish legal system. Unlike England and Wales, where such an event would trigger an inquest, Fatal Accidents Inquiries in Scotland for military accidents were not mandatory before June 2017; and even now the new law is open to interpretation.

DV

[Homelover]

Oh, you were being facetious Jimmy, I thought you were just being a c*ck.

[orca]

Disappointing that the thread appears to have moved to a discussion about a piece of equipment utterly irrelevant in WVR Air Combat Training.

[phil9560]

Sigh......:rolleyes:

[Bob Viking]

At the risk of repeating myself I shall say this.

A collision avoidance system would almost certainly have prevented the Moray mid air or a similar occurrence. It could also prevent numerous other mid airs between FJs and civilian aircraft where the FJ is in a benign stage of flight.

I think you run the risk of diluting your argument by dragging it into a thread about a mid air between FJs apparently involved in ACT.

When I have engaged in ACT in the Hawk (TCAS equipped) it is invariably operated in standby mode since it would be of no benefit (often one aircraft within the formation, usually a jet with no student, will have it turned on in case of strangers). The other jet is usually well within the bubble of concern and hence warnings would either be constantly repeated or not triggered.

Even if a warning were to be triggered, looking in at the TCAS display or listening to the climb/descend command would be less useful than looking out the window.

Typhoon is far more dynamic than a Hawk and so any collision avoidance system, to work during ACT, would have to be awesome to be of any use.

I think you’d be better off starting a new thread devoted to the issue of collision avoidance systems instead of mistakenly trying to apply it to an accident that it almost certainly wouldn’t have prevented.

BV

[Homelover]

So, at the time of the 2018 Safety Statement being signed (July 2018), the Lossiemouth Typhoons were having 2 airprox on 14 Jun 2017 and 25 Aug 2017??? The Typhoon doesn’t have a CWS (and neither does any other aircraft of its genre- Gripen, F15, Rafale, Late Block F16, SU 30, or even the more modern F-22 and F-35), but neither does it have aTime Travel module. I suggest you get your facts straight JJ, before you start any more rabble-rousing.