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IcePack
22nd Jun 2019, 10:41
Surprised no one has commented on the Daily Mails article in yesterdayís edition re BA strike.
Again telling the public that airline pilots only do 171/2 hours a week max. (900 hrs per year) The article even said that this was from the time crews reported for duty.
I hope BALPA get a correction printed & an apology for lousy research.
For those not professional pilots on this site. 900 hrs per annum is from the time the aircraft pushes back till it stops on chocks after each sector. (Easy explanation).
This does not include pre flight & post flight duties nor turn around times when you are still on duty getting the aircraft prepared for the next sector.
I have been retired for a couple of years, but when working I was usually rostered for a 55 hr week. This often increased to 65 during the roster period. Certainly this included standbys where I often got called out in advance. Also crew are not included in the working time directive, so no rest breaks etc.
When discussing this down the pub The question to normal office types of when you go to the loo at work are you still at working & being paid. Of course is the answer, so what pray tell is the difference with aircrew.
Wonder how many of the daily mail readers could do a 60 hour week including time changes (jet lag) on a regular basis.
(Note I am not saying others do not do long hours but so do crew)
Rant over

Meester proach
22nd Jun 2019, 11:03
Itís the mail, itís not worthy of worrying about. Iím sure if they said chemtrails exist most of the readership would agree.

Didnít they also say the basic pay was £150k for a Ba pilot.

Iím absolutely certain if I ever ended up in the rag , the first thing theyíd do is go on zoopla and see how much my house is worth .

airseb
22nd Jun 2019, 11:35
Over here in France we get thrashed in the press every few months for this exact same reason. Nothing to do about except ignore. 850 hours last year, in line with just about any outfit, but not enough for the gutter press.
I personnally donít read aviation articles in the press anymore.

Twiglet1
22nd Jun 2019, 16:24
It was a dreadful one sided article without facts.

The AvgasDinosaur
22nd Jun 2019, 16:35
It was a dreadful one sided article without facts.
That is as concise and erudite review of the Daily Fail as one could wish for.
Thank you Twiglet1.
Be lucky
David

GS-Alpha
22nd Jun 2019, 16:36
I actually thought the writer was very well researched, and had deliberately written the article with maximum spin in order to paint BA pilots in the worst possible light whilst almost remaining completely factual throughout. The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.

neilki
22nd Jun 2019, 17:10
I actually thought the writer was very well researched, and had deliberately written the article with maximum spin in order to paint BA pilots in the worst possible light whilst almost remaining completely factual throughout. The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.
Good grief; with an admittedly broader but recognizable to the general public definition of 'Working" I think I could argue a case for 17 hour working days!!

Herod
22nd Jun 2019, 18:11
Rough figures, and I'm long retired, so bear with me. Short-haul in Europe. Four sectors @ 2hr each = 8 hr. Add 1 hr report, 3 x 40 min turnround (not you-know-who) plus 30 min post-flight = 11.5 hour day. Early start used to be 9 hr max. 47 weeks @ 5 days per week = 235 working days. If half are earlies, the figure comes to 2402 hours per year, the equivalent for a "wage-slave" who only gets two weeks leave a year, a 48 hour week

Officer Kite
22nd Jun 2019, 18:42
I actually thought the writer was very well researched, and had deliberately written the article with maximum spin in order to paint BA pilots in the worst possible light whilst almost remaining completely factual throughout. The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.

Couldn't have said it better. The sad part is the vast majority fall for it.

Total Pressure
22nd Jun 2019, 19:40
I fell for it, complaint made to IPSO, independent press standards organisation.

They can get away with most of the article but to say a pilot only works 17.5 hours per week, it currently being summer season, pissed me right off.

gearlever
22nd Jun 2019, 19:43
In Germany we have one tabloid, BILD.

How many do you have in the UK?

ExDubai
22nd Jun 2019, 20:39
In Germany we have one tabloid, BILD.

How many do you have in the UK?
Bild is a serious newspaper compared to Sun and co.

PerPurumTonantes
22nd Jun 2019, 21:27
The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.
They're always angry :rolleyes: Happy to chat with anyone right or left wing, but if they say they read the mail... No point. I've found them to have such a narrow-minded, poisoned, view of the world

T21
22nd Jun 2019, 23:44
Nobody has pointed out that if 900 hours a year equals 17.5 hours a week does that mean that they do not have any holidays?

Rated De
23rd Jun 2019, 05:04
It was a dreadful one sided article without facts.

Contract season?

Rated De
23rd Jun 2019, 05:05
Nobody has pointed out that if 900 hours a year equals 17.5 hours a week does that mean that they do not have any holidays?

Is that flight or duty hours?

T21
23rd Jun 2019, 08:24
I think we all agree that it should be duty hours and not flying hours that should be used in this discussion. The point I was trying to make is that having worked out those hours they should then be divided by 46 to 48 (depending on your T&C's) to reach an accurate weekly hour worked figure.

bill fly
23rd Jun 2019, 08:56
Shame about the DM. They used to be aviation mad - sponsored air races - gave prizes (including the North Atlantic to A and B)
These days you canít whip up too much enthusiasm or informed comment from them.
Having said that there are some helpful people there who have assisted me with the odd archive item.

toratoratora
23rd Jun 2019, 09:24
The same happened a few years ago with the talking-head 'aviation expert' Simon Calder in the Independent, who bought O'Leary's claim that pilots 'only worked 900 hrs per year', without fact-checking.
He got several thousand responses for that, including mine.

Tay Cough
23rd Jun 2019, 12:48
The same happened a few years ago with the talking-head 'aviation expert' Simon Calder in the Independent, who bought O'Leary's claim that pilots 'only worked 900 hrs per year', without fact-checking.
He got several thousand responses for that, including mine.

I was one of the thousands. In fairness to Mr Calder, he apologised by return and subsequently printed a correction.

Dannyboy39
23rd Jun 2019, 15:41
There is no doubt that Ts and Cs are being depressed across the industry in Europe and not just in the flight deck. Those who are earning £100k+ are getting fewer and fewer in real terms. Personally I think those earning those numbers could be a bit more grateful?

I saw an ad looking to recruit FOs for £27k and captains for working £18k more. Absolutely pathetic numbers.

Cabin crew wages are absolutely disgraceful in almost every airline. In engineering, weíre doing ok, but now weíre seeing guys popping up from Eastern Europe and Asia who are depressing the rate somewhat.

Herod
23rd Jun 2019, 18:20
Paul 852. The problem with this calculation is that you are limited to 900 (or so) flight hours per year. So at 8 flying hours per day you can't work more than 113 days per year.

Don't forget though that the earlies, making up half the days, are 9 hour DUTY max. Normally only two sectors. I do agree with you though. It was a bit of sloppy figuring on my part. However, I think it makes the point that pilots "work" more that 17.5 hours per week.

Twiglet1
23rd Jun 2019, 18:26
Is that flight or duty hours?
Flight/block
I'm all for a bit of fishing with Pilots but even I was pretty pi$$ed with the article.

hec7or
23rd Jun 2019, 19:44
herod

Don't forget though that the earlies, making up half the days, are 9 hour DUTY max.

only in CAP371 Land which is of no interest to EASA regulated operators

HundredPercentPlease
23rd Jun 2019, 20:14
Paul 852.

Don't forget though that the earlies, making up half the days, are 9 hour DUTY max. Normally only two sectors.

Confused by this.

Our 2 sector duties (0600 start) are limited to 13 hours, but the more common 4 sector early duties are limited to 12 hours. FDP.

Herod
23rd Jun 2019, 20:34
Don't forget I started by saying I have been retired for a long time. When I was doing it, bearing in mind my user-name precedes Pontius even starting training, it was all under CAA regulatons. My apologies if I've confused anyone. Let's just accept that pilot's do work long hours, which may not be to the Mail's liking.

Lookleft
23rd Jun 2019, 22:57
The general public will never accept that airline pilots work hard. They are fixed on the idea that we get paid fabulous amounts of money for very little effort. Newspaper articles and special exposes on current affairs programs only reinforce that stereotype. Even extended family members don't want to know. Then there is the whole discussion about how computers will make us all redundant and how planes land themselves. In the words of the penguins "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."

Atlas Shrugged
24th Jun 2019, 03:20
The public and media have the entire concept of aviation reversed from reality.

bill fly
24th Jun 2019, 06:40
The general public will never accept that airline pilots work hard. They are fixed on the idea that we get paid fabulous amounts of money for very little effort. ."

I tell them, ďIf itís that easy, why donít you apply?Ē

parkfell
24th Jun 2019, 07:48
I have a vague recollection that BA had a performance related scheme ( fair & equitable ) many moons ago, which encouraged the workers.

Probably around 1990, BA paid a bonus of one week's pay for a company profit exceeding £50m, and additional weeks pay for each £50m exceeding the base figure of £50m.
That then changed with a minimum base figure of £350m. What happened after that scheme, I know not.

What the beancounters failed to appreciate is that the employees are the company's biggest asset. Due to how financial accounts are prepared, their value does not appear on the balance sheet. If the company fails to recognise the importance of goodwill and people going that extra mile to accomplish the task, get new management on board to motivate the troops.

Herod
24th Jun 2019, 08:02
parkfell. I remember an HR manager telling the crews "we don't consider staff to be an asset, because we can't realise them for cash". The cost of everything, and the value of nothing?

parkfell
24th Jun 2019, 09:03
parkfell. I remember an HR manager telling the crews "we don't consider staff to be an asset, because we can't realise them for cash". The cost of everything, and the value of nothing?

What they would recognise is when their spreadsheets going forward don't match their forecasts.
Scratching of the head? Productivity down. Increased sickness. Cash flow suffering. Will the penny drop?

Just what is it they do not get about a content workforce.......?

"the floggings will continue until morale improves"

Webby737
24th Jun 2019, 13:14
I have a vague recollection that BA had a performance related scheme ( fair & equitable ) many moons ago, which encouraged the workers.

Probably around 1990, BA paid a bonus of one week's pay for a company profit exceeding £50m, and additional weeks pay for each £50m exceeding the base figure of £50m.
That then changed with a minimum base figure of £350m. What happened after that scheme, I know not.

What the beancounters failed to appreciate is that the employees are the company's biggest asset. Due to how financial accounts are prepared, their value does not appear on the balance sheet. If the company fails to recognise the importance of goodwill and people going that extra mile to accomplish the task, get new management on board to motivate the troops.

I was in BA around that time (92 - 93?) and I think we got an extra weeks wages in the summer for the profit share and another weeks wages around Christmas.
The BA engineers I've bumped into since generally don't seem to be a happy bunch, it certainly appears that their T & Cs have got worse over the years.