The Mail & Duty Hours

[IcePack]

Surprised no one has commented on the Daily Mails article in yesterday’s edition re BA strike.
Again telling the public that airline pilots only do 171/2 hours a week max. (900 hrs per year) The article even said that this was from the time crews reported for duty.
I hope BALPA get a correction printed & an apology for lousy research.
For those not professional pilots on this site. 900 hrs per annum is from the time the aircraft pushes back till it stops on chocks after each sector. (Easy explanation).
This does not include pre flight & post flight duties nor turn around times when you are still on duty getting the aircraft prepared for the next sector.
I have been retired for a couple of years, but when working I was usually rostered for a 55 hr week. This often increased to 65 during the roster period. Certainly this included standbys where I often got called out in advance. Also crew are not included in the working time directive, so no rest breaks etc.
When discussing this down the pub The question to normal office types of when you go to the loo at work are you still at working & being paid. Of course is the answer, so what pray tell is the difference with aircrew.
Wonder how many of the daily mail readers could do a 60 hour week including time changes (jet lag) on a regular basis.
(Note I am not saying others do not do long hours but so do crew)
Rant over

[Meester proach]

It’s the mail, it’s not worthy of worrying about. I’m sure if they said chemtrails exist most of the readership would agree.

Didn’t they also say the basic pay was £150k for a Ba pilot.

I’m absolutely certain if I ever ended up in the rag , the first thing they’d do is go on zoopla and see how much my house is worth .

[airseb]

Over here in France we get thrashed in the press every few months for this exact same reason. Nothing to do about except ignore. 850 hours last year, in line with just about any outfit, but not enough for the gutter press.
I personnally don’t read aviation articles in the press anymore.

[Twiglet1]

It was a dreadful one sided article without facts.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

It was a dreadful one sided article without facts.
That is as concise and erudite review of the Daily Fail as one could wish for.
Thank you Twiglet1.
Be lucky
David

[GS-Alpha]

I actually thought the writer was very well researched, and had deliberately written the article with maximum spin in order to paint BA pilots in the worst possible light whilst almost remaining completely factual throughout. The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.

[neilki]

I actually thought the writer was very well researched, and had deliberately written the article with maximum spin in order to paint BA pilots in the worst possible light whilst almost remaining completely factual throughout. The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.
Good grief; with an admittedly broader but recognizable to the general public definition of 'Working" I think I could argue a case for 17 hour working days!!

[Herod]

Rough figures, and I'm long retired, so bear with me. Short-haul in Europe. Four sectors @ 2hr each = 8 hr. Add 1 hr report, 3 x 40 min turnround (not you-know-who) plus 30 min post-flight = 11.5 hour day. Early start used to be 9 hr max. 47 weeks @ 5 days per week = 235 working days. If half are earlies, the figure comes to 2402 hours per year, the equivalent for a "wage-slave" who only gets two weeks leave a year, a 48 hour week

[Officer Kite]

I actually thought the writer was very well researched, and had deliberately written the article with maximum spin in order to paint BA pilots in the worst possible light whilst almost remaining completely factual throughout. The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.

Couldn't have said it better. The sad part is the vast majority fall for it.

[Total Pressure]

I fell for it, complaint made to IPSO, independent press standards organisation.

They can get away with most of the article but to say a pilot only works 17.5 hours per week, it currently being summer season, pissed me right off.

[gearlever]

In Germany we have one tabloid, BILD.

How many do you have in the UK?

[ExDubai]

In Germany we have one tabloid, BILD.

How many do you have in the UK?
Bild is a serious newspaper compared to Sun and co.

[PerPurumTonantes]

The Mail loves to make its readers as angry with the world as possible.
They're always angry :rolleyes: Happy to chat with anyone right or left wing, but if they say they read the mail... No point. I've found them to have such a narrow-minded, poisoned, view of the world

[T21]

Nobody has pointed out that if 900 hours a year equals 17.5 hours a week does that mean that they do not have any holidays?

[Rated De]

It was a dreadful one sided article without facts.

Contract season?

[Rated De]

Nobody has pointed out that if 900 hours a year equals 17.5 hours a week does that mean that they do not have any holidays?

Is that flight or duty hours?

[T21]

I think we all agree that it should be duty hours and not flying hours that should be used in this discussion. The point I was trying to make is that having worked out those hours they should then be divided by 46 to 48 (depending on your T&C's) to reach an accurate weekly hour worked figure.

[bill fly]

Shame about the DM. They used to be aviation mad - sponsored air races - gave prizes (including the North Atlantic to A and B)
These days you can’t whip up too much enthusiasm or informed comment from them.
Having said that there are some helpful people there who have assisted me with the odd archive item.

[toratoratora]

The same happened a few years ago with the talking-head 'aviation expert' Simon Calder in the Independent, who bought O'Leary's claim that pilots 'only worked 900 hrs per year', without fact-checking.
He got several thousand responses for that, including mine.

[Tay Cough]

The same happened a few years ago with the talking-head 'aviation expert' Simon Calder in the Independent, who bought O'Leary's claim that pilots 'only worked 900 hrs per year', without fact-checking.
He got several thousand responses for that, including mine.

I was one of the thousands. In fairness to Mr Calder, he apologised by return and subsequently printed a correction.

[Dannyboy39]

There is no doubt that Ts and Cs are being depressed across the industry in Europe and not just in the flight deck. Those who are earning £100k+ are getting fewer and fewer in real terms. Personally I think those earning those numbers could be a bit more grateful?

I saw an ad looking to recruit FOs for £27k and captains for working £18k more. Absolutely pathetic numbers.

Cabin crew wages are absolutely disgraceful in almost every airline. In engineering, we’re doing ok, but now we’re seeing guys popping up from Eastern Europe and Asia who are depressing the rate somewhat.

[Herod]

Paul 852. The problem with this calculation is that you are limited to 900 (or so) flight hours per year. So at 8 flying hours per day you can't work more than 113 days per year.

Don't forget though that the earlies, making up half the days, are 9 hour DUTY max. Normally only two sectors. I do agree with you though. It was a bit of sloppy figuring on my part. However, I think it makes the point that pilots "work" more that 17.5 hours per week.

[Twiglet1]

Is that flight or duty hours?
Flight/block
I'm all for a bit of fishing with Pilots but even I was pretty pi$$ed with the article.

[hec7or]

herod

Don't forget though that the earlies, making up half the days, are 9 hour DUTY max.

only in CAP371 Land which is of no interest to EASA regulated operators

[HundredPercentPlease]

Paul 852.

Don't forget though that the earlies, making up half the days, are 9 hour DUTY max. Normally only two sectors.

Confused by this.

Our 2 sector duties (0600 start) are limited to 13 hours, but the more common 4 sector early duties are limited to 12 hours. FDP.

[Herod]

Don't forget I started by saying I have been retired for a long time. When I was doing it, bearing in mind my user-name precedes Pontius even starting training, it was all under CAA regulatons. My apologies if I've confused anyone. Let's just accept that pilot's do work long hours, which may not be to the Mail's liking.

[Lookleft]

The general public will never accept that airline pilots work hard. They are fixed on the idea that we get paid fabulous amounts of money for very little effort. Newspaper articles and special exposes on current affairs programs only reinforce that stereotype. Even extended family members don't want to know. Then there is the whole discussion about how computers will make us all redundant and how planes land themselves. In the words of the penguins "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."

[Atlas Shrugged]

The public and media have the entire concept of aviation reversed from reality.

[bill fly]

The general public will never accept that airline pilots work hard. They are fixed on the idea that we get paid fabulous amounts of money for very little effort. ."

I tell them, “If it’s that easy, why don’t you apply?”

[parkfell]

I have a vague recollection that BA had a performance related scheme ( fair & equitable ) many moons ago, which encouraged the workers.

Probably around 1990, BA paid a bonus of one week's pay for a company profit exceeding £50m, and additional weeks pay for each £50m exceeding the base figure of £50m.
That then changed with a minimum base figure of £350m. What happened after that scheme, I know not.

What the beancounters failed to appreciate is that the employees are the company's biggest asset. Due to how financial accounts are prepared, their value does not appear on the balance sheet. If the company fails to recognise the importance of goodwill and people going that extra mile to accomplish the task, get new management on board to motivate the troops.

[Herod]

parkfell. I remember an HR manager telling the crews "we don't consider staff to be an asset, because we can't realise them for cash". The cost of everything, and the value of nothing?

[parkfell]

parkfell. I remember an HR manager telling the crews "we don't consider staff to be an asset, because we can't realise them for cash". The cost of everything, and the value of nothing?

What they would recognise is when their spreadsheets going forward don't match their forecasts.
Scratching of the head? Productivity down. Increased sickness. Cash flow suffering. Will the penny drop?

Just what is it they do not get about a content workforce.......?

"the floggings will continue until morale improves"

[Webby737]

I have a vague recollection that BA had a performance related scheme ( fair & equitable ) many moons ago, which encouraged the workers.

Probably around 1990, BA paid a bonus of one week's pay for a company profit exceeding £50m, and additional weeks pay for each £50m exceeding the base figure of £50m.
That then changed with a minimum base figure of £350m. What happened after that scheme, I know not.

What the beancounters failed to appreciate is that the employees are the company's biggest asset. Due to how financial accounts are prepared, their value does not appear on the balance sheet. If the company fails to recognise the importance of goodwill and people going that extra mile to accomplish the task, get new management on board to motivate the troops.

I was in BA around that time (92 - 93?) and I think we got an extra weeks wages in the summer for the profit share and another weeks wages around Christmas.
The BA engineers I've bumped into since generally don't seem to be a happy bunch, it certainly appears that their T & Cs have got worse over the years.