Interesting KC-46 approach at Paris

[NutLoose]

https://www-aviation24-be.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.aviation24.be/air-shows/paris-air-show/us-air-force-boeing-kc-46-makes-an-unusual-landing-at-le-bourget-ahead-of-the-paris-air-show-2019/amp/?usqp=mq331AQA&amp_js_v=0.1#aoh=15607978230605&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviation24.be%2Fair-shows%2Fparis-air-show%2Fus-air-force-boeing-kc-46-makes-an-unusual-landing-at-le-bourget-ahead-of-the-paris-air-show-2019%2F

[NutLoose]

Scroll down link for the film.

[Chris Kebab]

Think someone forgot they are not on F-16s any more.....

[Lyneham Lad]

Almost a bit late on the round-out there, Hoskins... :eek:

[ORAC]

USAF or Boeing crew?

[Three Wire]

Should have thrown that one away at the 90.

[SASless]

Except for the overshoot on alignment....the aircraft was very well flown.

Plenty of runway and decent touchdown with no control issues.

So...we ain't all perfect Sky Gods...give the guys a break!

[dead_pan]

Classic air display 'red mist' - can't look bad in front of your peers...

​​​​​

[sandiego89]

Arrivals at big shows are part of the show, why not.

And who needs thrust reverse? Looks like a good brake test was done as well...

[BEagle]

What a shambolic effort. With all Boeing's current self-inflicted problems, the last thing they needed was for some idiot to demonstrate that the KC-46 Pigsarse can't even seem to cope with a normal approach and landing....

Nice shot of the 'Rendition Class' passenger compartment windows - or rather, lack thereof.

Strange that this tanker wasn't fitted with its AAR pods for such an important air show.....

[charliegolf]

I heard they were looking for Blackbushe!:E

CG

[ExAscoteer]

Appalling lack of airmanship.

[treadigraph]

Nice kestrel hovering nearby!

[Compass Call]

BEagle
Probably because they haven't got any flight cleared pods yet:E

[sandiego89]

Wow, tough crowd here. Looked like an aggressive turning approach to an 8,000 foot strip- again part of the show at a major event, where arrivals and displays of even larger aircraft often have a bit of flair- and no it didn't end in tears. If she had flown a 3.5 degree straight in I imagine it would be derided as boring and proof of how limited it was.....

[BEagle]

If she had flown a 3.5 degree straight in I imagine it would be derided as boring and proof of how limited it was.....

Had a lady been at the helm, in my experience she would have flown entirely according to SOPs! Quite rightly.

[Fly Aiprt]

Wow, tough crowd here. Looked like an aggressive turning approach to an 8,000 foot strip- again part of the show at a major event, where arrivals and displays of even larger aircraft often have a bit of flair- and no it didn't end in tears. If she had flown a 3.5 degree straight in I imagine it would be derided as boring and proof of how limited it was.....

If this type of arrival was intended, then the goal of attracting interest has been achieved ;-)
Now it would be interesting to learn what actually happened. Last minute circuit change asked for by the crew ? By ATC ?
Aircrew mistake ? Technical issue onboard ?
Whatever the cause, it is always a good thing to aim for the runway center line, especially when thousands of cameras are focussed on your landing...

[unmanned_droid]

Probably just a spanner in the works...

[NutLoose]

Whatever the cause, it is always a good thing to aim for the runway center line, especially when thousands of cameras are focussed on your landing...

At least the right hand side of the runway and grass verge got a good hoovering..

[Fareastdriver]

When I went through Flying Training if one came over the hedge with less than 30 degrees of bank on you were chopped.

[Fly Aiprt]

When I went through Flying Training if one came over the hedge with less than 30 degrees of bank on you were chopped.
:)
Do you mean they made a trainee landing ?

More seriously, as someone already stated, it looks like a last minute change of runway (21 instead of 25), with a little bit of a hurry.

[F-16GUY]

From the linked article:
"A discussion is currently going on on social media between professional airline pilots whether or not the aircraft should have aborted its landing instead of continuing the unstable approach and landing halfway down the runway."

Or maybe military aircraft and aircrew have different requirements and therefore operate in a different way then what professional airline pilots are accustomed to.

Looks fairly normal and uneventful to me. Seen all sorts of (X)C-135's, KC-10's, C-17's and other military type heavies do those type of landings from a visual downwind. Do it the civi way at a fighter base, and you will be accused of flying the dreaded bomber pattern and ruining ATC's flow.

[Fly Aiprt]

Or maybe military aircraft and aircrew have different requirements and therefore operate in a different way then what professional airline pilots are accustomed to.

Looks fairly normal and uneventful to me. Seen all sorts of (X)C-135's, KC-10's, C-17's and other military type heavies do those type of landings from a visual downwind. Do it the civi way at a fighter base, and you will be accused of flying the dreaded bomber pattern and ruining ATC's flow.

Not sure missing the touch down point by half a mile is really up to military requirements...

[F-16GUY]

Not sure missing the touch down point by half a mile is really up to military requirements...

Several ways this approach could have ended:
-Go around
-Landing and then landing abort due to long landing and not enough stopping distance
-Landing long and ending up as a burning wreck somewhere past the overrun
-Landing hard on the nose wheel in an attempt to force it down in the touchdown zone
-Landing on the grass

or as in this case:

-landing long, and stopping without reversers and without any drama on the remaining runway.

Sorry, I don't see the issue here? Just because its not done this way in the civilian world does not make it unsafe.

[Davef68]

Nothing like as bad as the An22 at Farnborough all those years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiheoXf-IEs

[Doctor Cruces]

E cat, Hoskins!!

[FlightDetent]

Thanks for that an22 video! Obviously there is finesse involved in manoeuvring a large aircraft like those in both of the shots, personally, the Ruskies handle with more style to it, the touchdown itself included.

[ExAscoteer]

or as in this case:

-landing long, and stopping without reversers and without any drama on the remaining runway.


More by luck than any reasoned judgement.

[wub]

Thanks for that an22 video! Obviously there is finesse involved in manoeuvring a large aircraft like those in both of the shots, personally, the Ruskies handle with more style to it, the touchdown itself included.

Actually the AN-22 landed with one set of main wheels on the grass and crushed one of the PAPI lights in the process

[F-16GUY]

More by luck than any reasoned judgement.

I will take luck over skill any day....

ExAscoteer, do you have any military aviation background in transports or tankers that makes you an expert?

[Brain Potter]

Application of Stable Approach Criteria is equally important whether the context is military or commercial. The purpose is to create barriers to runway excursion with associated aircraft damage, hull loss, injury or fatalities. All of which represent a significant loss of military capability.

In the approach and landing phases, there is absolutely no requirement for this type of aircraft to be operated differently than the airliner equivalent. On this occasion, the crew got away with it; on another day they won’t.

The proper outcome was a go-around. I can only imagine that those who think otherwise have not operated similar types of aircraft, either in the military or in an airline.

[ExAscoteer]

ExAscoteer, do you have any military aviation background in transports or tankers that makes you an expert?

2000 hrs C-130.

1000 hrs Nimrod

I also have 1000 hrs Dominie (HS-125) teaching Fast Jet Navs and Airmen Aircrew at (primarily) Low Level.

Oh, and 2000 hrs as a Multi-Engined Qualified Flying Instructor.

So I would suggest I know quite a lot about manoeuvring large aircraft close to the surface, whether land or sea).

If you would take luck over skill, you are the last person I would want to fly with, that's an accident waiting to happen.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I will take luck over skill any day....

ExAscoteer, do you have any military aviation background in transports or tankers that makes you an expert?

Asks the teeny weeny Viper driver!

[Lyneham Lad]

Nothing like as bad as the An22 at Farnborough all those years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiheoXf-IEs

Powerful rudder authority!

[F-16GUY]

2000 hrs C-130.

1000 hrs Nimrod

I also have 1000 hrs Dominie (HS-125) teaching Fast Jet Navs and Airmen Aircrew at (primarily) Low Level.

Oh, and 2000 hrs as a Multi-Engined Qualified Flying Instructor.

So I would suggest I know quite a lot about manoeuvring large aircraft close to the surface, whether land or sea).

If you would take luck over skill, you are the last person I would want to fly with, that's an accident waiting to happen.

ExAscoteer,

Thanks, I asked because it seems most of the guys commenting this landing don't have any military background. I could not see from your public profile whether you only "talked the talk" or also "walked the walk". I admit that I don't have any heavy experience, but have witnessed landings like that many times in exercises and operations down range. The guys doing those landings did them for a reason!

Genuine question: why do you think its more luck than reasoned judgement?

The luck over skill comment was me being sarcastic.

Ewan,

Do you have any contribution to this discussion?

[orca]

I’m with F-16GUY on this. Was hoping for something exciting and the video is only interesting at best. (As titled!).

The angle of Bank is tame and constant, he/she rolls wings level when the port wingtip is about “gear to top of fin/ vertical stabiliser” off the ground, speed is under control within a 1000ft of roll or so...

[parabellum]

Americans are much more familiar with side-step procedures than we British and a military flight positioning from Germany could well have incorporated a training element, so it is anybody's guess what their plan was. All looked pretty smooth and controlled to me. No drama.

BEagle - you really must tell us all soon about your employment with Airbus, trying to flog the A330 Tanker around the world to anyone daft enough to buy it! :) :ok:

[Fly Aiprt]

I’m with F-16GUY on this. Was hoping for something exciting and the video is only interesting at best. (As titled!).

The angle of Bank is tame and constant, he/she rolls wings level when the port wingtip is about “gear to top of fin/ vertical stabiliser” off the ground, speed is under control within a 1000ft of roll or so...


The pilots did fine.
It's just the runway that missed the airplane by half a mile :-)

[Fareastdriver]

Half the posters here would have a heart attack of they had to fly into the old Kai Tak airport.

[NutLoose]

He should have done a go around then checked the runway was indeed clear, just like this ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZER-Qw3rE

[SASless]

This is pprune....the aircraft and pilots are American....ergo a major disaster was barely averted by divine intervention!

Had it been an American aircraft but flown by some Brits in the RAF there would not have been a peep heard.

Of course there would have been lots of comments....but all suggesting what grand flying it was and proving the proper way to do it.

Hoskins, Bloggs, and Carruthers are simply based upon some myth.

[BEagle]

Had it been an American aircraft but flown by some Brits in the RAF there would not have been a peep heard.
Probably because it wouldn't have happened!

parabellum , you must be confusing me with someone else! I neither directly work for Airbus nor do I fly around the world extolling the benefits of the A330MRTT. But from what I've seen, it does that for itself anyway!

[Hipper]

I'm not aircrew.

Is there really a problem with this landing. Presumably there are no passengers on board so that's not an issue. What about stress to the airframe?

[Davef68]

Powerful rudder authority!

There is one point in the video where you swear it's going to land vertically!

[weemonkey]

Cameras and mil Tx---hmmmm


Local News | Mishap On Keiko Flight Investigated -- Landing-Gear Repair Could Cost $1 Million | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19980927&slug=2774436)

The video of the mishap does not come up during a search...which is a pity as, from memory, it is quite err dramatic ..

[SASless]

Beags.....different situation and different outcome.

But....one very broken aircraft.


https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/621817-hard-landing-c-130j-2.html

[josephfeatherweight]

Nationality doesn't come into it - it was a poorly executed approach.
As has been explained, it wasn't part of the "show", hence one can suggest that it wasn't the "planned" outcome.
The divergence through the centreline, the touchdown right of centreline and the late point of touchdown just point to it being a balls up.
IF they'd managed to pull it off WITHOUT flying through the centreline, and landing on the centreline in the touchdown zone, it would've looked great!
But they didn't...

[orca]

Is that because it was multi crew? Never flown with anyone else before but I’m assuming that as captain you look after flight controls, power, fuel management, stores management, lookout, RT, navigation, systems, rules etc and possibly use other crew members for line up and touchdown point advice - or do they do something else?

I was thinking that if you didn’t delegate either of these things you could have a crew member watching the end of the port wing for you?

[Roland Pulfrew]

I’m with SAS and F16 on this, nothing particularly bad about that approach. Possibly a last minute runway change, maybe got caught out by the wind in the final turn, but nicely recovered and landed OK. We are supposed to be military pilots, capable of taking our aircraft to the edge. I’ve seen lots of medium/large RAF aircraft do similar without a need to go around.

[Fly Aiprt]

maybe got caught out by the wind in the final turn

What wind ?

Many excuses here for this display of flying "skills".

[Roland Pulfrew]

What wind ?


I don’t know, I wasn’t there and don’t know what the wind of the day was! :hmm:

[BEagle]

Roland Pulfrew wrote: I’ve seen lots of medium/large RAF aircraft do similar without a need to go around.

Really, Roly old mate? Not in your VC10K time, I trust.... Landing half way down the runway, well off the centreline, after a lousy approach.

At least no-one was injured - apart from Boeing's reputation, no doubt.

How's it going with you these days?

[Fly Aiprt]

I don’t know, I wasn’t there and don’t know what the wind of the day was! :hmm:

:hmm: :hmm:
How about that one : continental drift moved the touchdown marks half a mile behind the wheels ?

[Fly Aiprt]

I don’t know, I wasn’t there and don’t know what the wind of the day was! :hmm:

Would that help ?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x435/s0l8_8c77c2ec306ebf140473d562c620230238aae720.jpg

[SASless]

No crash trucks called out....no maintenance crews flown in...no unusual ground support equipment required....no tarps covering up any part of the aircraft......what is the big deal here folks?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

No crash trucks called out....no maintenance crews flown in...no unusual ground support equipment required....no tarps covering up any part of the aircraft......what is the big deal here folks?

That’s the standard we aspire to?

[newt]

Nobody has commented on the angle from where the video was taken! I think it makes it look much worse than it actually was! I can see little wrong with it. Would never happen in normal operation but maybe he was practicing for his display? I’d give the guys a break!

[2 TWU]

Hands up anyone with more than 10 hours in their log book who hasn't made a bit of a boob and simply sorted it out.

[Fareastdriver]

Judging by the comments here about a pilot who converted a less than ideal approach into a landing maybe the beancounters are right.

'Today's pilots are just system operators and should be paid as such.'

[Fly Aiprt]

Nobody has commented on the angle from where the video was taken! I think it makes it look much worse than it actually was! I can see little wrong with it.

If you look closely at this picture, you'll be able to see where the touchdown actually occurred.
From the taxiway behind the plane, you can see this is more than half a mile down the runway, and clearly way off the runway centerline (the white marks).
In "civil" aviation and most Western Air Forces, this is considered a poorly misjudged approach and landing, and should have required a timely "go around".

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/921x429/zxvw_167219036d99c5c179b8312b3e10a7124c441c41.jpg

[newt]

Not sure how you judge half a mile from the taxiway but it looks ok to me! No heavy braking and a controlled rollout! Still do not understand why everyone is giving them such a hard time! Nothing damaged apart from his pride.....! Now retired to my bunker with a cup of tea to watch low flying aircraft on YouTube! Far more entertaining!

[Fly Aiprt]

Not sure how you judge half a mile from the taxiway



Well, why not have a look at a map, airport chart, or even Google Map ?
Please note I wrote "down the runway", not "from the taxiway", which is located... why not find by yourself^^?


No heavy braking and a controlled rollout!


I'm afraid I can't concur.
Look again, the guy is using coarse rudder inputs to try an stay on course, and brakes so hard he locks his left main wheels (see the smoke ?) in the roll out.

The only mistake he didn't make is punch the front gear into the fuselage, a la B757^^!

[NutLoose]

Quote:I’ve seen lots of medium/large RAF aircraft do similar without a need to go around.

Really, Roly old mate? Not in your VC10K time, I trust.... Landing half way down the runway, well off the centreline, after a lousy approach.

Really, I watched a VC10 air display practice where they missed the centreline and heaved the thing round to try and get it back on the display line, It was the first and only time I saw shockwaves forming over the wing roots, the pilot overstressed the aircraft and the meter was reset before we got to the aircraft, no one on the crew would tell us exactly what they had pulled and wanted it hushing up, needless to say the sh*t hit the fan when the aircraft state went in to group that night and the aircraft was listed as grounded for overstress checks as without figures to go by we had to assume the worst scenario..

[SASless]

That’s the standard we aspire to?



That is the standard all the arm chair critics might consider.

The Aircraft landed without damage of any kind,, stayed on the runway, and was fit for mission at the end of the day.

Willy wrote a play about this....."Much Todo About Nothing"!

By the way....did the RAF send a large aircraft to the Show?

[Speedywheels]

By the way....did the RAF send a large aircraft to the Show?

If they did it was well hidden

[NutLoose]

They didn't send much to Cosford either, if it wasn't for the museum and the school dragging out the old favourites and the foreign / civilian display aircraft it would have been over in an hour, a Typhoon, a Tucano, a Chinook, the Dead Sparrows and several Grobs were it.

[chopper2004]

If you look closely at this picture, you'll be able to see where the touchdown actually occurred.
From the taxiway behind the plane, you can see this is more than half a mile down the runway, and clearly way off the runway centerline (the white marks).
In "civil" aviation and most Western Air Forces, this is considered a poorly misjudged approach and landing, and should have required a timely "go around".

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/921x429/zxvw_167219036d99c5c179b8312b3e10a7124c441c41.jpg

I am here this week so heres my photos of 22nd's latest toy :) on static

Cheers


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/562x750/64764312_10157722151791490_8638398762449895424_n_3c13291d0a0 e550894ac6ae29145a5bec72f8314.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/64922285_10157722152151490_1998049344791511040_n_c3d646a2387 cfcb649bbd8381e341c1dcded3494.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/64547921_10157721310651490_7497768517941329920_n_1ecb32342d7 46bcd970294f0c232db68b42d8fa4.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/64721813_10157721310576490_729662764032720896_n_756027a8f683 4443f76976e9b6e5389e11c55f35.jpg

[Fly Aiprt]

Thanks for the pictures.
Pity that in France you are fenced off the airplanes, contrary to the US.
Any chances of chatting with the crew ?

[lobby]

No crash trucks called out....no maintenance crews flown in...no unusual ground support equipment required....no tarps covering up any part of the aircraft......what is the big deal here folks?

By luck or by judgement?
How many precursors to a hard landing and/or a runway excursion were present?

[OK465]

Maybe all you critics should send your complaints to the CO of the 344th ARS.....maybe that was the CO....:eek:

....and yes I have big aircraft time also and don't see this as one of the top ten major military aviation concerns right now. Most of the complainers here seem somewhat like the types I'm familiar with who are reluctant to, even uncomfortable with disconnecting the auto-pilot.

[newt]

Well said OK465! The autopilot brigade have a lot to learn about aircraft handling! I have large aircraft experience and fighter experience! I’m sure military training is the best! Handling is paramount! That’s what makes the difference between an average pilot and a real pilot!

[BEagle]

newt , old bean, notwithstanding the training the military was once able to provide and the fact that many airlines now frown on their 'children of the magenta' from flying manually, never forget the wise words of Frank Borman:

A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill.

By which definition, whoever made that abysmal approach and landing at Paris was clearly NOT a superior pilot.

Back when you were hooliganing about in your Lightning :ok: , novice BOAC VC10 pilots had to fly something like 40 landings during type training, with a lot of manual flying. Whereas today, the beancounters deem manual flying generally superfluous, to the extent that many an airline copilot would find something as simple (to you and me) as a visual circuit extremely challenging.

But whose fault is that?

[newt]

I agree Beags! People used to get very nervous when I hand flew the 747! I’ve even seen them try to do a downwind ILS rather than an into wind visual! Just a shame that flying is becoming such a fluffy, computer controlled occupation! Glad to be retired and doing the garden every day!

[jindabyne]

What's all the fuss about? Nice tight circuit, airshow intentional. Blimey!

[Top West 50]

In about 1974, from the vantage of the Hong Kong Flying Club, opposite the 13 threshold, we could observe those that had over/under cooked the turn at the checker board. My prize for persistence went to an Air India 707 who did get it down eventually and managed to stop in a cloud of burning tyre smoke just short of 31 threshold. In comparison, the KC approach and landing was sedate!

[LowObservable]

I heard they were looking for Blackbushe!:E

CG

Try the Rue St-Denis.

[chopper2004]

Thanks for the pictures.
Pity that in France you are fenced off the airplanes, contrary to the US.
Any chances of chatting with the crew ?

i was talking to the crew....this week and most a/c on show at Le Bourget you could walk and sit in depending if you were guest of the OEMS. Don’t forget the OEMS control who visits or not their chalet and aircraft. Boeing was not allowing any folk on anything bar the 737 and Ch-47F (permission and guide from the AiA , DoD public affairs and it moved on the Wednesday from DoD / AIA static to Boeing static) . The KC-46 was off limits probably more from Boeing as it was parked at Boeing chalet.

Cheers

[chopper2004]

Thanks for the pictures.
Pity that in France you are fenced off the airplanes, contrary to the US.
Any chances of chatting with the crew ?

Also I find likes of RIAt and airshows in U.K. are more restrictive than USA or Europe for access. But in all honesty, one could moan about the way we do airshows compared to the rest of the world.

Cheers

[stilton]

Good looking aircraft

[tdracer]

i was talking to the crew....this week and most a/c on show at Le Bourget you could walk and sit in depending if you were guest of the OEMS. Don’t forget the OEMS control who visits or not their chalet and aircraft. Boeing was not allowing any folk on anything bar the 737 and Ch-47F (permission and guide from the AiA , DoD public affairs and it moved on the Wednesday from DoD / AIA static to Boeing static) . The KC-46 was off limits probably more from Boeing as it was parked at Boeing chalet.

Cheers

Not sure why they wouldn't allow close up inspection of the outside, but you can blame the USAF for not being allowed on-board. Just to get on board to doing required pre-flight and certification testing, I had to take a course and then sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). Not sure what I might have seen while on-board that would be potentially damaging if I disclosed it to the wrong person, but it was a USAF requirement.