New approaches into Heathrow

[siegmund]

In a Guardian article today, the arguments of which, as a frequent visitor to Richmond Park, I fully support, it states the planes will fly over Richmond Park at 1,500ft. Is this true? The closest point of Richmond Park to the southern runway is approximately 5nm. Would even the heaviest plane not have gained more altitude by then? The current approach chart gives 1720ft at 5nm but Richmond Park is not on the extended centre line, will a curved final approach be possible one day? Even if more aircraft overfly the Park at 2,000 or 2,500ft that is still a depressing prospect. I think the figure of 1,500ft was derived from a shaded map produced by the Heathrow Consultation.

[lobby]

New approaches into Heathrow
Would even the heaviest plane not have gained more altitude by then?

Shouldn't be gaining height on the approach.

[lobby]

These may help. Heathrow approach profile for 3 deg and 3.2 deg.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/661x390/capture_ae3ed83d30681d054d608162e39560e705e3ecbe.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/657x371/capture1_803f8db35b4167bf0708f26c39b2948f57452df9.jpg

[pax britanica]

Do inbounds fly over Richmond Park at all on approach surely it is two far to the south to be on final for 27L they most definitely do fly over Old Deer park which is the big green expanse running along the south bank ( the thames runs S-N at this point so the south bank is really the east bank) and then the extended centre line runs north of Richmond station and pretty close to and parallel to the main Richmond to Waterloo line. 27R of course is to the North and the approach runs south of the river (back on its normal orientation again) over Kew Gardens .

Departures on easterlies however do fly over Richmond Park at the Kingston end

[chevvron]

Do inbounds fly over Richmond Park at all on approach


They fly over Craven Cottage; most distracting when Fulham are winning.

[AndoniP]

They fly over Craven Cottage; most distracting when Fulham are winning.

hah, not much of a distraction when watching the aircraft these days :E

[ZFT]

They fly over Craven Cottage; most distracting when Fulham are winning.

you have a good memory

[lobby]

Do you mean Old Deer Park?

[siegmund]

No. According to the Heathrow Airspace and Future Operations Consultation hundreds of planes will fly at low altitude over Richmond Park – a national nature reserve – for the first time. I can’t link to the Guardian article as you need to have posted 10 times to be able to include a URL. Here’s a quote however, "It seems irrational then that the government is allowing Heathrow, as part of its plans for the third runway, to propose routing for the first time 47 low-flying arrivals as well as between 17 and 47 extra departures every hour directly over Richmond Park, London’s largest open space, a national nature reserve and a site of special scientific interest.”
And another "Under the Heathrow expansion plans, hundreds of planes would produce noise levels of up to 80dB – nearly eight times the WHO guidelines – flying at 1,500 feet over the park."

[wiggy]

Re the OP and " will a curved final approach be possible one day?"

From a pure aviating POV it's been possible since the days of the Wright brothers ...but in the context of this thread, airliners and a poor'ish weather approach using a curved segment connecting to a short straight final leg (e.g; typically a couple of miles or so) that was done at the old Hong Kong Airport for years, is still done elsewhere e.g. JFK, Tokyo HND and these days with advances in navigation systems it is a form of approach architecture being increasingly seen elsewhere. I think the bigger challenge will be the interaction of these proposed new routes with the rest of the controlled airspace in that part of the world.

I can’t link to the Guardian article as you need to have posted 10 times to be able to include a URL.

I take it this is the article:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/17/heathrow-planes-over-richmond-park-plan-would-damage-mental-health

There's an older related FT article here ( apologies if be hidden behind a paywall)

https://www.ft.com/content/3305a2c8-1287-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

From which:

..“independent parallel approaches” (IPA)" ..."involves new arrival routes into Heathrow for certain flights. Heathrow conceded that “some of these flight paths could overfly areas that are not affected by Heathrow arrivals today”.

[siegmund]

Yes it is.

[treadigraph]

Here's the article (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/17/heathrow-planes-over-richmond-park-plan-would-damage-mental-health) though it pains me to link to such a news organisation.

I'm not sure why the expansion would entail more arrivals flying over Richmond Park - so far as I'm aware the additional runway will be north of the airport? Might be additional Dover departures from 09R when on Easterlies.

[siegmund]

Shouldn't be gaining height on the approach.
Didn’t make myself clear, I meant would anything still be at 1.500ft over Richmond Park on departure.

[treadigraph]

I would think any departure will be at least 3000' by the time it is overhead Richmond Park.

[wiggy]

...I'm not sure why the expansion would entail more arrivals flying over Richmond Park - so far as I'm aware the additional runway will be north of the airport? Might be additional Dover departures from 09R when on Easterlies.

I read it as LHR wanting to gain approval for more arrivals overall by spreading noise in general and one way to do that is reduce the frequency of traditional straight in approaches to the 27's.

Sounds to me as if the "problem" being discussed with regards to Richmond Park is one that that would be caused by curved or offset approaches to e.g. 27 Left where (I haven't plotted this, so I'm just guessing at the numbers to give a picture) you could head towards a 2 mile final on a track of e.g 300 degrees and only then at 2 miles align with the runway, something eminently technically doable with today's technology and probably permissible even with a cloud base down at perhaps 700 or 800 feet.

[DaveReidUK]

Do inbounds fly over Richmond Park at all on approach surely it is two far to the south to be on final for 27L

Clearly they don't at present.

But the article is a reference to what Heathrow quaintly term "design envelopes for expansion", published back in December and described as "a geographical area within which it is technically possible to position one or more flight paths" (including curved approaches).

For example:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/631x352/arrivals_4_73ece8c403c57c1db307e5fced2849863f41531c.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/671x336/departures_3_91c803d4b6002c32138af9f2b9ebeff04c38ada0.jpg

https://afo.heathrowconsultation.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/01/3649-HRW-3R-A3-maps-booklet-AW-update-2-V1.pdf

[treadigraph]

Thanks you two, makes sense now. Friend of mine who lives a mile away on the western side of Croydon got the last consultation notice through his door in whatever form it took.

[Paul Lupp]

Do you mean Old Deer Park?
As distinct from "Old dear park" ??