F-105 vs F-111 low level, who's fastest

[nzhills]

Hi, I've been listening to Jeff Guinn on Aircrew Interview talking about flying the F-111 at very low level and seeing 945 knots on the clock. Would the F-105 get close to this, obviously in after burner? Regards Mark

[OK465]

Flew the 105, never flew the 111, but for comparison down low.....

After a head-on pass with an F-105, I was able to make the 180 and run him down in a clean F-4. Of course F-105s were older and somewhat tired and war weary by then.

Same situation with an F-111, head-on pass in clean F-4, made the 180 and wasn't able to get close to him and he was opening.

F-111 never officially tried for the low altitude speed record, but at the time it probably would have achieved it easily, probably measurably faster than Greenamyer's tricked out F-104.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Flew the 105, never flew the 111, but for comparison down low.....

After a head-on pass with an F-105, I was able to make the 180 and run him down in a clean F-4. Of course F-105s were older and somewhat tired and war weary by then.

Same situation with an F-111, head-on pass in clean F-4, made the 180 and wasn't able to get close to him and he was opening.

F-111 never officially tried for the low altitude speed record, but at the time it probably would have achieved it easily, probably measurably faster than Greenamyer's tricked out F-104.

And what about the Flogger? Never managed to get to the bottom of whether it was quicker on the deck than the 1-11.

[OK465]

The day I was scheduled to fly against the Flogger, it ground aborted for mx....so I don't know....but USN 'Rising Fighter' program F-14s used our F-4s (clean) as reasonable export Flogger simulators at low altitude, both for performance and depressed angle only radar capability. There used to be a Flogger driver on this site around here somewhere who would probably know. I 'spect though with the late model Floggers and Varks it might have been a 'photo finish'.

[Lima Juliet]

Chased down plenty of EF-111s/F-111s and B-1Bs in the Tornado F3. It was the one area of its performance envelope that it was really second to none - it’s such a shame that nobody ever thought to put one up for the low-level speed record. Even with a weapons load I’ve seen well over 800kts (without incriminating myself!) at low level ‘down south’. I did hear rumour that the HUD KIAS stopped at 999 - in answer to the “how do you know?”, with an answer “because I had to switch Mach”!

[Blossy]

In one of the books I've read on the Vietnam war a Thud driver mentions seeing 880 kts at low level.

[TBM-Legend]

It is said that the Thud was the fastest single engined aircraft but the -111 was quicker..

[Just This Once...]

Tornado will edge an F-111 at low level with the burners in for both players. If both types stick to the dry range then the F-111 would have the upper hand.

Fastest I have ever been at low level wasn't in the Tornado though. I can testify that the speed warning horn on the Bone makes an annoying noise!

[ACW599]

Chased down plenty of EF-111s/F-111s and B-1Bs in the Tornado F3. It was the one area of its performance envelope that it was really second to none - it’s such a shame that nobody ever thought to put one up for the low-level speed record.Was it ever established how fast the Lightning was at low level?

[safetypee]

Was it ever established how fast the Lightning was at low level?
WIWOL, book limit was 650, test limit 700, design limit 750 + ; achievable without reheat.
As I recall high-speed low level was limited by lack of nose down trim; possible effects of missile wings / pylon generating lift.

[SASless]

The Recon version of the F-101 Voodoo was no slouch in this kind of thing either....plus she was a very pretty airplane too!






https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/622x328/avf101_05_ec382c0e66c37b33e939225214078d837ceaa237.jpg

[dook]

1970 - bar at Wattisham - two Thuds diverted in.

Erstwhile WIWOL to one of the pilots:

"What's the fastest you've seen in a Thud ?"

"800 sir"

"Was it airborne by then ?"

[pr00ne]

SASless,

No arguing with your sentiment or opinion, but that's an Air Defence version...

[OK465]

Red Flag mid-70s, some young F-4E guy from the exercise primary unit is the designated mission commander for the final day 'gorilla' scenario....

Mass briefing, he briefs a meticulously choreographed low altitude package ingress from the east that includes multiple turns up and down valleys and canyons with associated dramatic ridge-line crossings and general complexity overall....

Crusty old, 100 over the north, F-105G weasel driver raises his hand,

Young guy, "Yes, sir."

Thud driver, "We like to go in straight lines....we lose airspeed when we turn."

[Shaft109]

As a slight side step on the original question how much variability was there between individual airframes?

I.e. were there literally individual aircraft that just were faster? Wiki shows that Lightning XR724 was the quickest but some of the text there reads a little like a wet dream.

[unmanned_droid]

There would be some variability between airframes of the same type. It should be very small, but there is some.

Slight difference in age of turbine blades, maybe a different spec of compressor blade with slightly different aero, a slightly shinier, less rippled surface finish...better panel fits. It all adds up.

[Pure Pursuit]

John Boyd had a very dim view of the F111 although, he never flew it. He tore it apart during the design phase and was proved to be absolutely right. His biography is well worth a read.

[Willard Whyte]

The Recon version of the F-101 Voodoo was no slouch in this kind of thing either....plus she was a very pretty airplane too!






https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/622x328/avf101_05_ec382c0e66c37b33e939225214078d837ceaa237.jpg

That's a great museum! Had an auto show mixed in with the aircraft this weekend just gone.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_4033_copy_aa3ae3bc0e24ed45367a69766338f840ea3a21cc.jpg

[TLB]

The Recon version of the F-101 Voodoo was no slouch in this kind of thing either....plus she was a very pretty airplane too!

Max Q on the CF-101B/F was 650 KIAS and she could do that easily at low level, but not for long. Many have exceeded that, including myself. Max speed I ever got was 1,050 KTAS at about Angels 34.

[OK465]

There's a really knowledgeable structures engineer on the F-16 site who was primary on a lot of the Viper testing, but his first assignment with GD was on the F-111.

To paraphrase his story,

Early in the F-111 program, GD had USAF fly in an F-105 for all their F-111 engineers to inspect. Essentially they were told this is what they didn't want and to avoid if possible anything they saw on the Thud and not incorporate it in the F-111.:eek:

(Hello TLB, saw 1140 KTAS on an old F-4D FCF vari-ramp check at 45,000 once. Measured out 1.98 IMN but a true Mach of 2.01)

[BEagle]

Heard a tale of a pair of Thuds somewhere in North Vietnam. After being engaged by hostile fire, they'd become separated. The calls went something like:

"2 from Lead, where are you?"
"2 - 30 miles south of (….) at a hundred feet!"
"Whatcha doin' down there?"
"A THOUSAND MILES AN HOUR!!"

:ok: