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A320 Flyer
11th Jun 2019, 11:07
16% rise quoted..... 5hrs rolled into the base rate
Captains now on $215,000
Good to hear if it is in fact the win it was described to be.

https://amp.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/tiger-pilots-score-16pc-pay-rise/news-story/0e4cebdb859aeac1d28d0b432f625427?fbclid=IwAR0u1Ozr3VhgXlSPAz 6OX6F6R6FoTEEA6mNRc4IDbDgP7m58TLH_lDXpjwo

PoppaJo
11th Jun 2019, 14:36
All eyes now on the competitor who is in early negotiations and itís going to be a long long ride folks get the popcorn ready.

InZed
11th Jun 2019, 20:48
The boys and girls at VANZ must be spewing now that theyíve accepted the line from the company that thereís no more money for their pay rise...

Blitzkrieger
11th Jun 2019, 21:24
Well done boys and girls! Cobham and now Tiger have had significant corrections to their EAís and all it took was a cohesive pilot body. This is the time airlines feared the most, and one they denied would ever happen. Good start!!

das Uber Soldat
11th Jun 2019, 21:28
Looking forward to seeing how JQ screw this up.

big buddah
12th Jun 2019, 04:50
The boys and girls at VANZ must be spewing now that theyíve accepted the line from the company that thereís no more money for their pay rise...
???????
Your information seems to be widely off the mark.
Vanz CEA currently out for ratification.

impossibleturn
12th Jun 2019, 07:31
Can’t imagine why the VANZ guys would be spewing. The money on offer in the CEA being ratified is very decent. The extra days off look good too.

rowdy trousers
12th Jun 2019, 10:01
So the Tiger base pay is higher than Jetstar, their overtime cuts in at 60 hours versed 75 hours at JQ and they donít do RNP or CAT 3 and they donít fly 220 seats - WTF?

PoppaJo
12th Jun 2019, 10:31
So the Tiger base pay is higher than Jetstar, their overtime cuts in at 60 hours versed 75 hours at JQ and they donít do RNP or CAT 3 and they donít fly 220 seats - WTF?
Its now 230 seats.

In a few years time half the fleet is going to be A321.

Ollie Onion
13th Jun 2019, 01:40
This is a good deal, it will look even better when J* totally fu*K's over the pilot group in the new EBA negotiations. The JANZ group is totally fractured and not united so will be easy pickings for the Company.

74world
13th Jun 2019, 05:05
This is a good deal, it will look even better when J* totally fu*K's over the pilot group in the new EBA negotiations. The JANZ group is totally fractured and not united so will be easy pickings for the Company.

G'day Ollie, what do you mean by " totally fractured???
J*NZ is not a huge base (but no idea how many A/Cs they operate).....and they are not united?
Would you care to explain?.......their EBA is due for renewal early next year.

Ollie Onion
14th Jun 2019, 00:34
I wasn't just referring to the J*NZ pilots (who are 90% unionised and pretty cohesive). The problem with Jetstar is that in the Australian operation we have two major Union groups both of who seem to detest each other and can't present a united from in negotiations so the company with ease plays one off against the other. You also have a proportion of pilots who don't belong to either union group and seem to just act out of total self interest, the company has shown over the last couple of negotiations that they simply play one group off against the other. The fact that J* NZ also exists is a problem, the Aussie pilots quite happily work within the NZ operation with impunity whilst restricting the NZ pilots from undertaking ANY work in Australia, when Jetstar NZ was undertaking industrial action and the union in Australia was approached for a show of support not only did they say 'nothing to do with us', a number of their members then volunteered to operate in NZ during the industrial action and prevented the local FO's from partaking in that action as it 'wasn't their problem'. Recently one of the Australian unions approached the NZ union and queried if there was an appetite for a group seniority list and some of the Aussie FO's were feeling a bit aggrieved that NZ FO's were getting commands in 3 years and that they didn't have access to them, the offer was that they may be happy for the Jetstar NZ pilots to join the bottom of their list in return for a lifting of the restriction on NZ pilots operating in Australia............. gee, that seems like a good deal. So all in all the JANZ pilot group has a lot of competing interests that the company has exploited to ensure they keep passing sub par deals on both sides of the Tasman, I can't see that changing anytime soon, just look at the latest J* company update where they company openly states that talks with one union group are progressing well as they are being realistic whilst with the other group things have stalled due to their unrealistic demands.

Blueskymine
14th Jun 2019, 00:44
Except one of the unions is the major union with a majority of members.

The other is is lucky to scrape up a few dozen.

Colonel_Klink
14th Jun 2019, 04:20
It certainly is remarkable what a unified pilot group can achieve.

It’s called solidarity and JQ and VA pilots should take note given their ongoing and upcoming negotiations.....

Global Aviator
14th Jun 2019, 05:22
Whoda thunk that Tiiiger would become one of the best paid and solid terms and rosters??? Indeed well done. No doubt it will reflect with the dedication and effort of the boys up the front. Whoops sorry PC incorrect there, the boys and girls up the front, probably PC incorrect there tooooo...

But seriously well done.

Will this be the sign of things changing in Oz? Yes I doubt it!

PoppaJo
14th Jun 2019, 07:57
Jetstar are looking at a 15-20% odd increase in its Pilots Wage Bill should it try to better the Tiger offer by 2-3%. No executive is going to agree to this.

das Uber Soldat
14th Jun 2019, 08:06
Jetstar are looking at a 15-20% odd increase in its Pilots Wage Bill should it try to better the Tiger offer by 2-3%. No executive is going to agree to this.

Its likely to get ugly.

Fact is JQ flies the largest NB aircraft in Aus, with the most seats, the longest distances, have the least days off and likely do the most sectors of any 180 seat+ airline in Australia. The pay needs to start reflecting that. Great work to Tiger, congrats to them. I hope JQ uses this as a springboard to push for real changes, because anything that even breaks even with Tiger will be an insult in my eyes, no disrespect to the fine crew of Tiger. Simply a reflection of the realities of different operation with different capabilities.

No doubt there will be threats by management to close the place down. Will there be unity? I sure hope so. Tiger proved that unity can deliver real dividends.

Rated De
14th Jun 2019, 08:31
Its likely to get ugly.

Fact is JQ flies the largest NB aircraft in Aus, with the most seats, the longest distances, have the least days off and likely do the most sectors of any 180 seat+ airline in Australia. The pay needs to start reflecting that. Great work to Tiger, congrats to them. I hope JQ uses this as a springboard to push for real changes, because anything that even breaks even with Tiger will be an insult in my eyes, no disrespect to the fine crew of Tiger. Simply a reflection of the realities of different operation with different capabilities.

No doubt there will be threats by management to close the place down. Will there be unity? I sure hope so. Tiger proved that unity can deliver real dividends.



Predicated on unlimited supply or qualified or self funding pilots the industry replicated the extremes of the Ryan air model to various degrees.
Whilst management may try to hold the line, after all they are used to getting things their way, they are on the wrong side of the trade.
The reality that airlines are yet to accept, indeed many pilots also refuse to believe that demographics are driving this gradual reduction in pilot supply. The second order effect is that their adversarial IR approaches have dissuaded more potential pilots form investing in a career.

Their approach will not waver until the reality of shortages means cancellation and frequency rates are harder and harder to maintain.
Whether it is 'training academies' pilotless aircraft or even corporate welfare, airlines will continue to try to hold the status quo.

There is abundant evidence of upwards pressure on terms and conditions if one bothers to look and kudos to the pilots involved for calling the bluff.
3% is not the upper bound of remuneration outcomes.

ExtraShot
14th Jun 2019, 09:36
Jetstar are looking at a 15-20% odd increase in its Pilots Wage Bill should it try to better the Tiger offer by 2-3%. No executive is going to agree to this.


It it doesnít look like theyíll have much of a choice! What excuses could company negotiators possibly come up with? With the JQ crewsí contributions to Years of Record group profits, (and record executive bonuses), and now paid well below comparable pilots in another company, then add in all the aforementioned productivity improvements (RNP, A321, etc). There are now perfectly valid reasons for JQ pilots to be a little bit peeved, and hopefully energized Ďindustriallyí.

Well done Tiger pilots. Youíve demonstrated what a bit of unity, with a dash of fortitude and courage will get you.

PoppaJo
14th Jun 2019, 11:21
Its likely to get ugly.

Fact is JQ flies the largest NB aircraft in Aus, with the most seats, the longest distances, have the least days off and likely do the most sectors of any 180 seat+ airline in Australia. The pay needs to start reflecting that. Great work to Tiger, congrats to them. I hope JQ uses this as a springboard to push for real changes, because anything that even breaks even with Tiger will be an insult in my eyes, no disrespect to the fine crew of Tiger. Simply a reflection of the realities of different operation with different capabilities.

No doubt there will be threats by management to close the place down. Will there be unity? I sure hope so. Tiger proved that unity can deliver real dividends.


Realistically Jetstar needs to sit about 7-9% above the Tiger deal when taking all the factors into account. That would be a 25% odd increase in wages.

To get that over the line would probably result in the biggest IR movement ever seen.

But can be done!

a_pilot
14th Jun 2019, 12:44
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/55755-i-am-army-one-merged.html

Ollie Onion
15th Jun 2019, 07:21
I do hope you are right, but as someone with experience of the Qantas Groups attitude to negotiations I suspect 15-25% rises are as likely as us seeing a huge fleet of Uber air taxis flying around Melbourne next year. Even in the good times Qantas management sticks doggedly to the ‘no more than 3% per year total contract cost’, couple this with their ability this year to site softening pax figure, volatile fuel prices and an uncertain global economic outlook, I think it is tough times ahead for the negotiators.of course a bit of airline wide industrial action may help focus the minds, but as I have said, getting all pilots to join is unlikely, and of course they have many other pilot resources amongst the group to leverage their position. How about revoking the ‘active hold’ status for Mainline of any pilot who partakes in industrial action, using Jetstar NZ pilots to fly some routes during industrial action, farming out work to Network, Eastern etc or indeed returning capacity to Mainline along with offering positions to non-striking pilots. Are we so certain the ‘group’ pilots will stick together for the common good....... I truely hope that something good comes from the negotiation, history would tell us otherwise.

clark y
15th Jun 2019, 08:37
My concern with the Tiger EBA is the 2.5%. It's only a bit less than the "standard" 3% but over a 20-40 year career it can add up. Hopefully next Tiger EBA it will improve.

morno
15th Jun 2019, 09:16
I do hope you are right, but as someone with experience of the Qantas Groups attitude to negotiations I suspect 15-25% rises are as likely as us seeing a huge fleet of Uber air taxis flying around Melbourne next year. Even in the good times Qantas management sticks doggedly to the Ďno more than 3% per year total contract costí, couple this with their ability this year to site softening pax figure, volatile fuel prices and an uncertain global economic outlook, I think it is tough times ahead for the negotiators.of course a bit of airline wide industrial action may help focus the minds, but as I have said, getting all pilots to join is unlikely, and of course they have many other pilot resources amongst the group to leverage their position. How about revoking the Ďactive holdí status for Mainline of any pilot who partakes in industrial action, using Jetstar NZ pilots to fly some routes during industrial action, farming out work to Network, Eastern etc or indeed returning capacity to Mainline along with offering positions to non-striking pilots. Are we so certain the Ďgroupí pilots will stick together for the common good....... I truely hope that something good comes from the negotiation, history would tell us otherwise.

Some of what you suggest I believe would be illegal

Ollie Onion
15th Jun 2019, 09:20
It’s never stopped them before.

PoppaJo
15th Jun 2019, 10:19
The market has finally shifted and probably the largest change seen in the low cost space. 3% isnít going to cut it. Tiger has set the new going rate.

Jetstar has always paid more than Tiger. Getting a deal over the line that is 10-15% less than Tiger is going to upset a lot of people. It will create a very fractured pilot body.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
16th Jun 2019, 01:46
As a JQ pilot I would be happy if they rolled the high line allowance into base pay (company hasnít figured out how the use the available days anyway) and give the company more standby coverage for an increase in base pay (which the company would go for as it would reduce their WDO bill).

This would hopefully have NB capt 220K base plus 3% increases per annum for the life of the agreement.

ExtraShot
16th Jun 2019, 02:44
As a JQ pilot I would be happy if they rolled the high line allowance into base pay (company hasnít figured out how the use the available days anyway) and give the company more standby coverage for an increase in base pay (which the company would go for as it would reduce their WDO bill).

This would hopefully have NB capt 220K base plus 3% increases per annum for the life of the agreement.


Would you still be doing 75 hours per month to their 60 for that figure? Thatís still a pretty huge discrepancy.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
16th Jun 2019, 03:08
65 hrs and 220K would be fairly palatable fir most of the pilot group I think.

There will be many who say this is not enough, but they only need 51% yes vote after all.

Daylight Robbery
16th Jun 2019, 09:49
Would be better than QF S/Haul rate of 195,756 (Year 1 Captain, but 18 years in the company) for 58 hours

shortshortz
16th Jun 2019, 10:45
Would be better than QF S/Haul rate of 195,756 (Year 1 Captain, but 18 years in the company) for 58 hours

I love how posterís just write what they want to suit their argument.

Thatís great, why donít you try using Year 4 figures for a start.

Even with Jetstar on a hypothetical 220k + high line + DTA + 65 threshold, a Jetstar Pilot would only be ahead until a Year 4 QF S/haul pilot did five hours overtime. Then every hour after that QF is ahead; and gaining substantially.

Remembering this would be 2019 figures for JQ vs 2017 for QF. QFís about to be new EBA will see them even further ahead and thatís with Jetstar pilots more efficient in almost every aspect.

Daylight Robbery
16th Jun 2019, 20:13
I was pointing out the hourly rate at 220k for 65 hours would be higher than the QF Year 1 737 rate. That is a fact.

QF gets a DTA, but I assume JQ would keep theirs, too

shortshortz
16th Jun 2019, 20:58
I was pointing out the hourly rate at 220k for 65 hours would be higher than the QF Year 1 737 rate. That is a fact.

QF gets a DTA, but I assume JQ would keep theirs, too

It depends if the hourly overtime rate increases at Jetstar, itís significantly lower than QF.
You also need to add two lots of 3% to your figures to bring QF up to 2019 (latest EBA negotiations reflect this)

Bula
16th Jun 2019, 22:25
Everyone seems to think that PIA will be pickets and lockouts.

Fortnightly stop work meetings will get the point across.

Ollie Onion
17th Jun 2019, 01:14
It will be, the Qantas pilots were locked out for wearing ‘red ties’ and making ‘PA’s’. Stop work meetings will certainly illicit a response and also rely a very high participation amongst the crew, it will get nasty. I was part of a large airline when the pilots filed for industrial action and we all promptly got letters from the company requiring that we indicated if we intended to take part so that they could arrange the with holding of pay for the potential lock out period. Funnily enough quite a few union members told the union that they wouldn’t be going on strike and were dismissed from the union.

Bula
17th Jun 2019, 01:39
The way I read it is you canít be locked out for a stop work meeting.

The company canít pay us, and we canít accept payment for the period of the meetings, as long as itís less than 4 hours.

It would be interesting to get clarification on this should it come to it. I maintain a measured amount of optimism it wonít.

das Uber Soldat
17th Jun 2019, 01:51
As a JQ pilot I would be happy if they rolled the high line allowance into base pay (company hasnít figured out how the use the available days anyway) and give the company more standby coverage for an increase in base pay (which the company would go for as it would reduce their WDO bill).

This would hopefully have NB capt 220K base plus 3% increases per annum for the life of the agreement.
Why? If they don't move the efa threshold then you're still on less than a tiger captain. Any agreement that doesn't see jq ahead simply makes no sense to me given the increased productivity.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
17th Jun 2019, 03:05
Why? If they don't move the efa threshold then you're still on less than a tiger captain. Any agreement that doesn't see jq ahead simply makes no sense to me given the increased productivity.

Iím just being realistic.

We all know how it will go. The company will offer us roughly the same agreement plus 3% which will be voted down, then an agreement which wonít be great but will get enough of the pilot group to vote yes for it to get across the line.

Those that think a bit of PIA is going to make the company roll over and give us a 20% pay rise are kidding themselves.

patty50
17th Jun 2019, 03:23
When was the last time one Qantas Group EBA was markedly improved while the rest got standard 3% pay and a few job specific concerns addressed? Genuinely curious.

Tiger has a whopping 2 EBAs and the Virgin Group in general seems to be much less adversarial between work groups.

Pilots striking and the company acquiescing to 15% -justifiable or not- seems fanciful when with 6 months youíll have a company wide shut down...again.

wheels_down
17th Jun 2019, 04:00
Your missing the point. The point here is the marketís going rate for a LCC Pilot in this country has shifted. You have been underpaid and the Tiger pilot body has fixed that.

This is also happening in retail. Woolworths/Wesfarmers are in the process of new Agreements for all its businesses. They are all 10-15% increases over previous awards. Itís the largest shift in the sector ever seen. Woolworths now has a multi hundred million dollar wage increase to absorb.

Fly for Jetstar and work 10% harder, fly 25% more people and get paid 15% less than your competitor who isnít profitable and is operated more as a ultra low cost carrier.

shortshortz
17th Jun 2019, 04:28
Iím just being realistic.

We all know how it will go. The company will offer us roughly the same agreement plus 3% which will be voted down, then an agreement which wonít be great but will get enough of the pilot group to vote yes for it to get across the line.

Those that think a bit of PIA is going to make the company roll over and give us a 20% pay rise are kidding themselves.

The company canít just offer 3% They need much more flexibility and stand by coverage to cater for what will now be a domestic crew flying long (med) haul as well as 1-4 day trips becoming the norm with the Jeppesen Optimizer, and also more stand by coverage to limit expensive WDOs.

The current coverage wonít cut it and so itíll be in the interest of Jetstar to get this EBA over the line and to do that itíll need to be competitive. Otherwise theyíll find a rolling NO vote and box themselves into a corner with NEOs fast approaching and a current inflexible EBA for intl ops.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
17th Jun 2019, 04:35
Your missing the point. The point here is the marketís going rate for a LCC Pilot in this country has shifted. You have been underpaid and the Tiger pilot body has fixed that.

This is also happening in retail. Woolworths/Wesfarmers are in the process of new Agreements for all its businesses. They are all 10-15% increases over previous awards. Itís the largest shift in the sector ever seen. Woolworths now has a multi hundred million dollar wage increase to absorb.

Fly for Jetstar and work 10% harder, fly 25% more people and get paid 15% less than your competitor who isnít profitable and is operated more as a ultra low cost carrier.



Having spoken one on one with reps from AIPA and AFAP I can tell you that walking into the negotiating room and complaining that we are getting paid below Ďmarket rateí isnít going to get us anywhere.

I agree that we should be able to argue that with a larger proportion of our fleet becoming A321s we should be remunerated accordingly. The company line is that pay rises will be 3% + efficiency gains. Flying 18 more aircraft with higher MTOWs and 50 more seats is a huge efficiency gain.

That + some extra $$ in exchange for more stand by coverage should get us a better deal.

das Uber Soldat
17th Jun 2019, 04:58
Iím just being realistic.

We all know how it will go. The company will offer us roughly the same agreement plus 3% which will be voted down, then an agreement which wonít be great but will get enough of the pilot group to vote yes for it to get across the line.

Those that think a bit of PIA is going to make the company roll over and give us a 20% pay rise are kidding themselves.
Lucky for the Tiger pilot body that they weren't being realistic then. 16% achieved with a bit of pia.

I simply do not understand a defeatest attitiude here. There is no argument in my view that justifies a salary package below tiger. That the company will fight it is irrelevant. There has been a marked shift if the fair market rate and the pay should be reflective of that. And it's not like the pay is substituted by quality of life provisions either. Less days off, longer standbys and the company pushing to own our days off now too?

I hope enough of the pilot body has the gumption to stand up to being valued the least when we produce the most.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
17th Jun 2019, 05:51
A realistic attitude will get us further as a pilot group because it is worth remembering what we are up against. The Qantas IR machine wonít rollover and reward an employee group for taking PIA. In fact, they would probably love the opportunity to make an example of an employee group that holds the company to ransom.

PIA is the nuclear option if the company doesnít bargain in good faith, not the weapon of choice as some believe. Those in the telegram app group chat who are beating the war drums about PIA (when the current EBA hasnít even expired yet) are simply embarrassing themselves.

PoppaJo
17th Jun 2019, 06:00
A realistic attitude will get us further as a pilot group
Whatís a realistic attitude? Give us some examples.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
17th Jun 2019, 06:11
3% + productivity increases (A321neos, extra stbys etc) for increased base pay and/or reduction in overtime threshold.

if were as as simple as arguing Ďbut Tiger get this, we should tooí why didnít we do it years ago with QF mainline terms and conditions?

Because its not that simple

das Uber Soldat
17th Jun 2019, 06:31
3% + productivity increases (A321neos, extra stbys etc) for increased base pay and/or reduction in overtime threshold.

if were as as simple as arguing Ďbut Tiger get this, we should tooí why didnít we do it years ago with QF mainline terms and conditions?

Because its not that simple



Your entire point appears to be that we shouldn't be paid fair market rate because it's too hard and Qantas IR are too scary.

3% and giving the company more standbys would be an absolute joke of a result, leaving us not a little, but substantially at the bottom of the airline market in this country, despite being at the top in terms of aircraft size, leg distance, sectors flown and pax numbers. Not to mention the least time off.

There simply isn't any credible reason why we shouldn't pursue the market rate. Luckily, I haven't heard of a single line pilot beyond LL entertain any other position. Interesting times ahead.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
17th Jun 2019, 06:42
More standbys wouldnít be simply Ďgiven awayí but traded for increased remuneration/ minimum daily credit.

If we can negotiate that as well as the increased efficiencies of flying larger aircraft more often (should be approx 25 A321s in the fleet by 2022) for more pay I donít see why we canít get approx 220K base and reduce our hours.

This is would be a realistic way to negotiate to get to the market rate.

Clipster
17th Jun 2019, 06:47
Your entire point appears to be that we shouldn't be paid fair market rate because it's too hard and Qantas IR are too scary.

3% and giving the company more standbys would be an absolute joke of a result, leaving us not a little, but substantially at the bottom of the airline market in this country, despite being at the top in terms of aircraft size, leg distance, sectors flown and pax numbers. Not to mention the least time off.

There simply isn't any credible reason why we shouldn't pursue the market rate. Luckily, I haven't heard of a single line pilot beyond LL entertain any other position. Interesting times ahead.

but add in the entire non management check and training department. The 3 percent figure will just mean silver jets resting against the fence until the company realise that they need to pay a lot more.

Ollie Onion
17th Jun 2019, 09:00
Genuine question, how do we know the Tiger EBA is now low cost market rate, what if they go bust in 6 months, or if Virgin only gave in to this as they know they are going to wind it up?

This is what Management at Jetstar will say ‘that’s not market rate, Virgin and Tiger are being reckless and will not survive with those costs, we can’t match that as we are heading into tough times’. Not being pessimistic, after being on the pilot side of the equation for 3 different airlines and 6 contract negotiations (never again) I have always found the pilot group can be divided 3 ways.

1 - get scared at any bluster from the company and just want to settle at the first offer, will not participate in PIA.
2 - the group who is willing to negotiate hard for modest and realistic gains, even if it takes 12 months, and are willing to admit it is a two way street, would take PIA if every other option is exhausted.
3 - The ‘Lets take PIA’ now as we have told them we want a 20% pay rise and they haven’t immediately agreed, ‘just tell them that’ (after 3 meetings), itching for a fight.

I have seen all three displayed above :-) The trick is finding the middle ground before everyone goes in in their own directions and leaves the pilot group in a fractured position. Judging by the relative length of each parties log of claims we can already see a massive gulf in negotiating position which just makes it harder to progress in any meaningful way.

das Uber Soldat
17th Jun 2019, 09:18
If they're just going to wind it up in 6 months, why bother agreeing at all (and then having to pay out all the back pay at significant cost). Easier to just drag it out, a triviality.

Realistically a jq agreement is probably 18 months to 2 years away. If tiger is still around by then it mutes that argument.

As to your 3 groups, people talk about being in position 3. I hope they are really in position 2 but history suggests to me we'll get position 1 when it starts to require resolve.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
17th Jun 2019, 09:43
Good summary Ollie!

The crux of what I was saying is the more pilots in group 2 the better.

Berealgetreal
17th Jun 2019, 10:11
The most likely scenario is Tiger being strengthened and growing.

Global Aviator
17th Jun 2019, 12:07
Certainly with happy drivers comes more efficient operations..... The opposite to PIA! Hang on there’s an idea.

Them versus us mentality? As part of the QF group are you not (JQ) fighting for closer to QF terms?

Yes it appears Tiger have set a standard, well done.

Lets not forget the drivers are NOT the biggest cost factor and the odd % or ten doesn’t really make that much difference... or does it?

We all know how easy it is to save a few hundred kg’s of gas here and there, be more efficient, push that OTP. Look at it over fleet size.

Anyways we all know I’m now ranting, it all means nothing without unity.

Again Tiger well done!

Danny104
17th Jun 2019, 13:58
Assuming 6 weeks AL per year 10.5 months x 60 hours is 630 per annum /$215,000 =$341.00 approx per hour. That’s more than year 3 787 captain in QF . Or am I missing something? Obviously there are some contractural differences ,but based purely hourly rate which the 787 flying will eventually become in all bases ,sounds like a great result. Well done Tiger pilots .

shortshortz
17th Jun 2019, 21:18
Assuming 6 weeks AL per year 10.5 months x 60 hours is 630 per annum /$215,000 =$341.00 approx per hour. Thatís more than year 3 787 captain in QF . Or am I missing something? Obviously there are some contractural differences ,but based purely hourly rate which the 787 flying will eventually become in all bases ,sounds like a great result. Well done Tiger pilots .

Yep, youíre missing most of the EBA.

The overtime rate is $170ph after 60 hours.

84% higher overtime rate working in easier conditions; makes sense, especially when comparing to JQ carrying their 230 pax vs 170 odd on a 73.

Berealgetreal
17th Jun 2019, 22:04
Doubt youíd be able to sell a pay rise based on increase in seats.

I think your best bet is salary comparison and the profitability of your group (massive). More than likely youíll have to go down the PIA path in the end.

Best if luck.

Rated De
17th Jun 2019, 22:51
Airline cash flow is a fickle beast.
Airline management knows pilots can destroy positive cash flow.

Their strategy in the previous decades, buoyed by unlimited supply of pilots was industrial wedges: Separate owned entities to lever terms and conditions.
Worked extremely well.

No longer.

Try not to focus on hourly rates, focus on the package, costed to put a pilot in a seat. IR will want pilot attention on what suits their narrative.
It is extremely difficult to generate operating revenue with aircraft chocked and pitot covers on.

chickoroll
17th Jun 2019, 23:13
What would all this extra money be worth without better conditions! Our conditions need a massive over haul as much as we need a pay rise.

ANCDU
18th Jun 2019, 00:02
Good work by a cohesive pilot group, 16% is a great result.

It does make me wonder though why a struggling LCC with a questionable future would agree to such an increase. But when you think about it this is going to cost the Qantas Group a lot more than Virgin. Without doubt this will end with the Jetstar pilots in PIA, and so they should, they are without doubt the hardest working, and probably most qualified (Dual Type, Low Vis, RNP, etc etc) narrow body pilot group in the country at the moment and they earn the least. Colleagues that are working there that I usually find are conservative and company oriented are already talking about the possibility of PIA. This will cause huge damage to the Brand (I know there is not much brand value there) and also come at a huge financial cost to the Group. This will play right into the Virgin Groups hands. Smart move me thinks!

I think if you add to this the issues with the SH agreement, and the upcoming LH agreement there are some turbulent times ahead for the Qantas Group. I think Alan has called his bluff too early on this one, no one cares about a $2000 sign on bonus anymore. There also seems to be a definite slowing down of negotiations as the Qantas group waits with fingers crossed for the upcoming economic slow down. The next 18 months are going to be very interesting in this industry.

Berealgetreal
18th Jun 2019, 00:17
Ancdu donít quote me but one reason might be because there has been talk of merging all the flying. A while ago I heard the company wanted the ability for all pilots to fly together and that separate groups was inflexible. So I think vaa might have a different idea of how they want to run it to qf. Joined seniority list is the first example of this. Also the tiger list is pretty small so the payrise isnít as ďpainfulĒ on the balance sheet as it would be for jq.

It certainly presents an interesting scenario when it comes to your negotiations. The timing couldnít be better for you.

Daylight Robbery
18th Jun 2019, 01:33
Shortshortz;

At 90 hours a month (945 pa) Tiger will average $292 per hour vs QFís 73 $401 per hour for Year4 2019 figures.

To correct your 'information'. The last QF pay rise for the 737 was 1 Mar 18 and if there is a 3% increase the 2019 rates for Year 4 will be $313 per hour

Buster Hyman
18th Jun 2019, 01:55
It does make me wonder though why a struggling LCC with a questionable future would agree to such an increase. But when you think about it this is going to cost the Qantas Group a lot more than Virgin.
Yes, it's either a move designed to impact a competitor that you really can't compete with, or it's a case of "Pay them what they want as it'll be null & void when VARA absorbs Tiger"" Either way, getting the VA negotiators to take control of the situation was a stroke of genius by the Unions. :D

Vindiesel
18th Jun 2019, 02:59
Shortshortz;



To correct your 'information'. The last QF pay rise for the 737 was 1 Mar 18 and if there is a 3% increase the 2019 rates for Year 4 will be $313 per hour

Wrong.

The last QF737 pay rise occurred on 1/9/17. Assuming backdated 3% pay rises the year 4 Capt rate would be $322.58/hour from this September.

a_pilot
18th Jun 2019, 04:35
The company line is that pay rises will be 3% + efficiency gains

I wonder how much efficiency gains this optimiser will give them ?

Jeppesen claim savings in the range up to 15% in crew costs using the Jeppesen crew pairing optimiser.

Other claims made by Jeppesen are "retiming" (roster changes mid duty ?), "more profit" and "take fatigue risk into account during optimization for optimum trade-offs with other KPI's". We all know what this means.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jetstar are expecting at least a 10% reduction in crewing costs or more. Isn't this the efficiency gains they want ?

The fact that that pilots will be more efficient, whether it was a trade off made during negotiations or not, is still an efficiency gain.

If pilots will be working harder, more efficiently, more time away from home, shorter rest periods, more dead heading, more roster disruptions, then pilots should expect an appropriate increase in pay to reflect this hard work.

Isn't this just part of their plan or expectation, to just burn pilots out after 5 years. This shows how much they really care about pilots health, wellbeing and quality of life.

https://ww2.jeppesen.com/airline-crew-optimization-solutions/airline-crew-pairing/

http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/commercial/JeppesenCrewRostering.pdf

https://ww2.jeppesen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/crew-pairing-fact-sheet.pdf

http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/commercial/Crew_Pairing_v9.1.pdf

Berealgetreal
18th Jun 2019, 07:22
They want Jetstar pilots to work harder?

Ollie Onion
18th Jun 2019, 22:45
Yes, we are about to turn into an airline of ‘trips’. Every time you go to work it will be for a tour of duty of between 2 and 5 days. Sad really as one of the only Jetstar advantages over other airline was being a home most of the time.

chickoroll
19th Jun 2019, 03:47
I hope youíre wrong with that Ollie. I like being home every night!

Ollie Onion
19th Jun 2019, 04:07
I hope that I am wrong as well, but the initial documents floating around don’t look positive. Couple that with the fact that Jetstar NZ gained a load of pilots from Air Nelson when they introduced the ‘optimiser’ leading to multiple day trips and I would say the writing is on the wall.

Berealgetreal
19th Jun 2019, 05:32
Oh ok basically theyíll own you for 5 days expect an early start day 1 and late finish last day. Suggest you look at recent Virgin eba as this was a massive issue.

Youíll also see multiple roster changes within the trip while they time balance you out of overtime (this will be vehemently denied but again check amendment to virgin eba).

Your last day wonít go anywhere near your home base to prevent you from hopping off due sick or fatigue.

These are some of the tasty gems coming your way.

wheels_down
19th Jun 2019, 05:55
Why would they go down the trip route. LCC = Point to Point to keep costs down. That just balloons costs. AirAsia/Scoot/Tiger they barely touch that sort of practice otherwise fares need to go up. They have twice the amount of bases than Virgin and half the fleet which is why itís not needed.

Unless they are thinking of closing bases again?

Clipster
19th Jun 2019, 05:59
Oh ok basically theyíll own you for 5 days expect an early start day 1 and late finish last day. Suggest you look at recent Virgin eba as this was a massive issue.

Youíll also see multiple roster changes within the trip while they time balance you out of overtime (this will be vehemently denied but again check amendment to virgin eba).

Your last day wonít go anywhere near your home base to prevent you from hopping off due sick or fatigue.

These are some of the tasty gems coming your way.


sounds lovely :rolleyes:

Berealgetreal
19th Jun 2019, 06:44
Thatís what I thought wheels down.

In an ideal world a rostering system would allow those that want trips to get them vs day trips vice versa. Same for early vs lates. Any promise of this should be ignored.

chickoroll
19th Jun 2019, 07:34
Not all that hard to close a base or two been done before! There is a few unproductive ones at JQ

Buster Hyman
19th Jun 2019, 07:48
In an ideal world a rostering system would allow those that want trips to get them and Day trips vice versa.You mean, like they one they paid millions for & dumped so that VARA could do them in the old, antiquated system?

machtuk
19th Jun 2019, 08:20
Tigers main issue is they have always had no long term direction. Successive useless CEO's and useless Chief Pilots as well as multiple other higher useless ego tripping management changes they will always be a rudderless ship, why VA bought them is beyond belief!

Berealgetreal
19th Jun 2019, 08:29
Maybe the new guy will sort things out. You never know!

wheels_down
19th Jun 2019, 11:38
Tigers main issue is they have always had no long term direction. Successive useless CEO's and useless Chief Pilots as well as multiple other higher useless ego tripping management changes they will always be a rudderless ship, why VA bought them is beyond belief!
Useless Chief Pilots after Ken left you mean..

mppgf
19th Jun 2019, 12:23
So who is the current chief pilot of Tiger ?

Buster Hyman
20th Jun 2019, 06:07
Oh ok basically theyíll own you for 5 days expect an . Suggest you look at recent Virgin eba as this was a massive issue.
Youíll also see multiple roster changes within the trip while they time balance you out of overtime (this will be vehemently denied but again check amendment to virgin eba).
Your last day wonít go anywhere near your home base to prevent you from hopping off due sick or fatigue.
These are some of the tasty gems coming your way.

Ok, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but I think this needs some more clarity.

early start day 1 and late finish last day - This is pretty much standard practice & has been in the RCGM for years. Late to earlies is the real no-no.
multiple roster changes within the trip while they time balance you out of overtime - I don't doubt that it's in the EBA but you've gotta ask 'Who will be doing this?' Once published, the roster belongs to Crewing & there's one person on shift dealing with everything. I just don't see who will have time to pull things apart for this specific reason. Also, the Unions are told of all changes post publish.
Your last day wonít go anywhere near your home base to prevent you from hopping off due sick or fatigue - Geneva does not have this capability & the Rosterers won't have the time or the sense to be so clever, they'll just be frantically covering trips on the last day before publish!

I'd be more concerned about how 'flexible' the 'fixed' rosters are...

Buster Hyman
20th Jun 2019, 06:07
So who is the current chief pilot of Tiger ?

Rick..........

Berealgetreal
20th Jun 2019, 20:46
Not a conspiracy theory at all, whilst the rostering system may be different those were all issues dealt with at the recent virgin eba.

mppgf
21st Jun 2019, 01:48
Rick..........
Thanks Buster

Buster Hyman
21st Jun 2019, 03:59
Not a conspiracy theory at all, whilst the rostering system may be different those were all issues dealt with at the recent virgin eba.

OK. Apologies for 'conspiracy theory' then. :ok: I've no insight into the VA EBA or Rostering practices.

Berealgetreal
21st Jun 2019, 04:41
Just a heads up for JQ guys on what can happen when you end up doing trips.

All of these things were regular practice so much so the unions had to insert clauses which got voted on. To counter that the roster bidding system seems to have developed some sudden glitches.

Mark my words if you go to trips you will see all of this and crewing numbers increase.

machtuk
21st Jun 2019, 11:14
Useless Chief Pilots after Ken left you mean..
........yes after Broomey, I should have made mention of that. Poor old Broomey was loosing the battle, a long list of backstabbers that haunt Tigers constantly! He was/is a top guy but he didn't fit in the 'new' Tigers business model of total chaos even to this day!