COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

[Convair Coronado]

CX seniority has officially ended with 4 extensions keeping their seniority, & that’s only to kick off.
Cool ! , now we can all bid for what we want and commercial requirements or who gets there first decides who gets what.
It’s the Donald Trump system now. Anything goes and anythings up for grabs- dog eat dog. Personal deals rule ok .
Pure and simple chaos while the master rubs his hands.

At least now any doubt is removed and we know how it really works.

[ACMS]

Ummmmmm, plenty of guys 15 to 20 years ago were extended past their 55th birthday ( when we were all on 55 retirement age ) on the frighter fleet, kept their seniority for staff travel etc. plenty of us were mighty annoyed to.........Some stayed 5 years.....or more until RA 65 popped along.......then they stayed some more.......

This ain’t new

[Night Watch]

Hey sorry.... but not sure what planet you are on? But seniority is from DOJ and not dependent on what contract you are on. Having said that.... I'm on COS99 and I very much doubt they will allow, even if i wanted to, to extend past that.

[Dilbert68]

There are current COS 99 pilots extending on COS 18, it is happening right now.

They are accepting a massive pay cut and greatly inferior conditions just to hang around. I just can't understand these people. Thanks for letting the company know that our pay and beneifts are still too high, you pathetic twats will probably work for free.

You are all lepers, why don't you go make friends with all the new TC's. You are both cut from the same cloth.

[Convair Coronado]

Ummmmmm, plenty of guys 15 to 20 years ago were extended past their 55th birthday ( when we were all on 55 retirement age ) on the frighter fleet, kept their seniority for staff travel etc. plenty of us were mighty annoyed to.........Some stayed 5 years.....or more until RA 65 popped along.......then they stayed some more.......

This ain’t new
This is new.
This time they keep all their seniority

[Convair Coronado]

All that matters is they are on COS beyond their contractually agreed retirement age and retaining full seniority.
This must be a first in the airline industry
Fair play to CX management for sneaking this one in it certainly seems to have gone unnoticed so far anyway.[/left]

[Air Profit]

I understand your anger and frustration, but ultimately it is only yet more evidence that the career prospects at CX are effectively over. If you want a "flying job", then there is one here, but it won't represent anything that normally constitutes a "career". CX will always find ways to undermine and devalue your job conditions. That applies now, and it will apply 25 years from now. It is the institutional psychosis that permeates our management. The only real option is to attempt to find employment with an airline based in a country that has proper labour laws, a recognised labour/management negotiating protocol and a place that you won't find (insert name of any third world country you can imagine) them hiring people that are happy to work appalling hours for far less than you would accept. Needless to say, CX can only be considered as a place to get the hell away from.

[Flex88]

Ummmmmm, plenty of guys 15 to 20 years ago were extended past their 55th birthday ( when we were all on 55 retirement age ) on the frighter fleet, kept their seniority for staff travel etc. plenty of us were mighty annoyed to.........Some stayed 5 years.....or more until RA 65 popped along.......then they stayed some more.......

This ain’t new



Ya, check out the SSI's ("senior" sim instructors) - some near 75 years old...... NO LIFE, NO MORALS... Stealing "check" positions from those who "in seniority" should get them and all that for way < than 50 % of the salary.. Seniority is a joke like most every COS at CX.

[Flex88]

CX seniority has officially ended with 4 extensions keeping their seniority, & that’s only to kick off.
Cool ! , now we can all bid for what we want and commercial requirements or who gets there first decides who gets what.
It’s the Donald Trump system now. Anything goes and anythings up for grabs- dog eat dog. Personal deals rule ok .
Pure and simple chaos while the master rubs his hands.

At least now any doubt is removed and we know how it really works.
Sorry pal, ended a long time ago. That along with a merit based promotion system... Take a look around !!!

#CXit

[Air Profit]

The sad but defining truth: ask anyone, and if they were honest, would reply that they wished they had picked a different airline to establish a career at. Every single one of us.

[cxorcist]

The sad but defining truth: ask anyone, and if they were honest, would reply that they wished they had picked a different airline to establish a career at. Every single one of us.

100% true. I say this almost everyday to someone. Chalk it up to the old adage, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. That was definitely the case at CX. Now it doesn’t even look good, it just rotten all the way through. The core has rotted its way all the way to the surface, and now they are trying wallpaper over the rot (black mold) with Move Beyond posters and “woke” politically correct capitalism. Pathetic!

[Slasher1]

The sad but defining truth: ask anyone, and if they were honest, would reply that they wished they had picked a different airline to establish a career at. Every single one of us.

I don’t know that any journey in life is truly a mistake if you get something out of it and learn something from it. Or that some joining when they did — with the information they had at the time — would have viewed it as a bad decision based on the information they had at the time.

But things changed. Boy DID they change. Like cancer, it could have happened to anyone (or any carrier) but it happened to us. One of those nasty turns of life. Most prudent have by now bolted, are in the process of bolting, or are kinda retired-on-active-duty as it were.

Now for the self-deluding idiots who might consider coming onboard at present — given all that has happened and been well documented — well I’ve got nothing but scorn and contempt.

[Exiled Aviator]

Extensions beyond 55 in the past have resulted in frozen seniority and/or being moved onto freighter terms and even being placed at the bottom of the list. To point out the obvious, extending and maintaining seniority affects EVERYONE!! From career progression, career earnings with delayed upgrades stretching on years to being disadvantaged when it comes to type transfers, base slots, roster requests and leave allocation.

Time to WAKE UP and make some noise, general apathy which seems to have manifested itself is not going to help. Express your dissatisfaction to the company and the AOA. Ramifications for your careers are huge.

Extensions won't go away, they're a direct result of crew shortages and training limitations, but need to be made with due respect to the seniority system, as they were in the past.

[ACMS]

Extensions beyond 55 in the past have resulted in frozen seniority and/or being moved onto freighter terms and even being placed at the bottom of the list. To point out the obvious, extending and maintaining seniority affects EVERYONE!! From career progression, career earnings with delayed upgrades stretching on years to being disadvantaged when it comes to type transfers, base slots, roster requests and leave allocation.

Time to WAKE UP and make some noise, general apathy which seems to have manifested itself is not going to help. Express your dissatisfaction to the company and the AOA. Ramifications for your careers are huge.

Extensions won't go away, they're a direct result of crew shortages and training limitations, but need to be made with due respect to the seniority system, as they were in the past.


those extenders in the past kept their DOJ for staff travel etc.......that was the issue

[Farman Biplane]

And some returned to flying pax 744 with their original seniority.

Discrimination is an interesting animal, it’s ok to shout that these guys shouldn’t be extending past 55, but they have invariably had their commands delayed because many Captains extended to 65 when COS08 was offered.

Where does it stop? What particular instances of age discrimination are OK? I would say NONE are and RA65+ should have been offered as a no cost item back in COS08 days, like it was at KA.

[Max Reheat]

Flex 88

Ya, check out the SSI's ("senior" sim instructors) - some near 75 years old...... NO LIFE, NO MORALS... Stealing "check" positions from those who "in seniority" should get them and all that for way < than 50 % of the salary.. Seniority is a joke like most every COS at CX.

For Christ's sake get a grip! The SSIs are a direct result of the Training Ban, which stopped current training capts accepting an upgrade to STC! I'm not going to argue the rights or wrongs of the TB but your comment there is exactly why we find ourselves in the position we are in. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[Arfur Dent]

COS 08 was simply bringing retirement age into line with the rest of the world. 55 is far too young to retire so some of us took advantage of the opportunity to stay. No regrets from me and when a pax slot (on pax pay) on the 744 offered a chance to never fly freight again in the Classic, that group of pilots would've been mad to refuse. In the transition to COS 08, many just stayed in their pax jobs (and bases) and flew till 65 - then retired. Some underwent a more complicated transition but I don't begrudge those who were allowed to simply stay where they were.
It was a transition period and a few got a very good deal whilst the industry changed to RA 65.

[Flex88]

I'm curious as to what age you believe is the maximum at which a person should be "allowed" to earn a living from what is likely to be the only major marketable skill they have?

I'll surmise that you believe "until you die" is or should be the new norm.
Meritocracy - dead
Seniority - dead
Empathy for those with families still under retirement age trying to make a go of it - dead

Only good rules are the rules that suit you, n'est-ce pas ??

Me, me, me, me.......

[Oasis]

HAHAHA are you serious? Express concerns to the AOA? Now that's the biggest joke I have heard today. What have they done for us - name one good thing?

Yes just give up buddy, why don’t you just eat a bullet while you’re at it, it’s no use anyway, is it?
grow a pair, sally

[Landflap]

Arfur, there you have it, right there. join the "few" and get a good deal when it suits but describe current Management a "bunch of c...s" when it doesn't. That's why we, "commercial" pilots go for hire & reward. Concerned about what's painted on the side of an aeroplane has no longer any worth in the industry.

[Arfur Dent]

Don't think I made my point very well Landflap. "The few" (who became "Everyone") were those after about 2008/9 who simply stayed on the pax Fleet until 65 on their Bases etc - that was an exceptional deal which didn't apply to me. I had to give up my base and convert to the Classic. COS 99ers were offered a chance to join COS08 but they refused and kept COS 99 with the understanding that they would retire at 55. It is typical Cathay that they can now have their cake and eat it at the expense of others. I don't think my actions disadvantaged anyone as RA65 was becoming the industry standard anyway. Don't shoot the messenger!

[RAT Management]

How does any captain taking COS18 to stay past 55 sleep at night? Probably the same guys joining training but claimed they were "forced"
Controlled rest!

[Landflap]

Arfur, thanks for the courtesy of a clarification. I see your point. That has been my downfall as I see all sides of an argument and was a Management Guy for a long time . Glad to get back to line flying & look after myself quite selfishly & ruthlessly. Worked but I have no mates.

[boxjockey]

Remember guys and gals, increasing the CX retirement age to 65 will REDUCE time to command!!!

box

[slowjet]

Yeah , and they are also convinced that by reducing EPR you INCREASE the RTOW. Thanks for my customary larf of they day Boxey !

[deja vu]

Remember guys and gals, increasing the CX retirement age to 65 will REDUCE time to command!!!

box
Think of it this way, when you do finally get that command you can stay until you are 65 too. Sadly, since the contract is now so poor, you will probably have to anyway!

[Flex88]

As long as you are capable and wish to would seem reasonable to me.

Exactly the same criteria management applies to find candidates for Check/Trainer positions.. Note, nothing to do with merit !

[letsfly75]

I find it strange that the retirement age is even in the contract. How was this negotiated? I think a person should be allowed to fly as long as the regulations, not some odd clause in a contract, allow. I can’t imagine a contract for any profession in the US having a mandatory retirement age. That’s for the regulators.

[Shag Nasty]

There is the rub let’s fly 75. CX is based in HKG. These are HKG contracts governed by HKG law. It is NOT the US,nor AUS, nor Europe. It is pointless comparing the law from those jurisdictions.

[letsfly75]

Well I flew or CX for over 10 years. I always thought the age clause was inane. If I had stayed and the age limit had been raised I would have zero problem continuing to that new age.

[JMock]

sure fly til 75.

You just can’t fly into airspace mandated by other jurisdictions to limit pilot retirement age to 65

lotsa luck with that

[Slasher1]

What you have to realize is the company will use just about any issue — regulators raising the RA or max hours, economic conditions in a third world nation, wannabees learning to fly, a flood in Johnstown, you name it

To attempt to develop a new contract of lower terms and conditions for a segment of the pilot force. And then play this segment against others developing a series of declining contracts. It’s been their MO for years.

The market could not be better for pilot opportunities than it is now. Yet for some reason our pilot force whiningly takes whatever the company throws at them.

For a time period CC and TB was working and they are parking jets. But POS 18 end runs CC and the new policy gives scabs cover to themselves to end run the TB. After this it becomes a matter of time of whether the bathtub can be filled fast enough.

So the writing was on the wall with the escalation to POS 18 — either strike or accept your lot. Apparently the workforce is composed of too many scabs and pussies to do much about their lot other than whine so there ya have it.

[Pickuptruck]

Anyone doing a fleet forum at the moment will hear how they’re sorting the RA55 issue. First guys coming up to 55 in 2021, most want to extend but only a minority are required and will be selected. So, guess what?

[ACMS]

Most want to extend?

oh.....

What happened 10 years back?

[mngmt mole]

What you have to realize is the company will use just about any issue — regulators raising the RA or max hours, economic conditions in a third world nation, wannabees learning to fly, a flood in Johnstown, you name it

To attempt to develop a new contract of lower terms and conditions for a segment of the pilot force. And then play this segment against others developing a series of declining contracts. It’s been their MO for years.

The market could not be better for pilot opportunities than it is now. Yet for some reason our pilot force whiningly takes whatever the company throws at them.

For a time period CC and TB was working and they are parking jets. But POS 18 end runs CC and the new policy gives scabs cover to themselves to end run the TB. After this it becomes a matter of time of whether the bathtub can be filled fast enough.

So the writing was on the wall with the escalation to POS 18 — either strike or accept your lot. Apparently the workforce is composed of too many scabs and pussies to do much about their lot other than whine so there ya have it.

It is one of the great mysteries of aviation: why, when nearly everywhere in the world the pay and conditions of pilots is improving, here at CX they are only on a downwards trajectory? It's quite curious. An analysis of the past 25 years clearly shows that the underlying reason is the "balkanization" of our pilot groups. Different nationalities, different basings, different contracts...all resulting in a situation that creates the perfect brew for our management to exploit. Somehow, we have ended up with an airline where at any given time, a few people (at the moment, AOA TB breakers who are volunteering) can undermine the efforts and commitment of the great majority, and cause each and every affected individual to suffer further loss in their career prospects (to each of you joining training, know you are actually lining your own pockets with the fair expectations of increased pay and benefits of your colleagues, that you have now effectively diverted into your own bank accounts. Cretins). There really is no hope for a prosperous or stable career at CX. Management get parachuted in for a few years (AM as en example) and their sole aim is to reduce the terms of your contract further. They are happy with a hundred nationalities, many of whom will quietly work for much less than you. You and your families will always be subject to arbitrary contract surprises, withholding of 13th month, closure of bases and on and on. There will never be a stable platform at CX to base a career on, or the hopes of your families. Get out while you still can.

[Progress Wanchai]

Anyone doing a fleet forum at the moment will hear how they’re sorting the RA55 issue. First guys coming up to 55 in 2021, most want to extend but only a minority are required and will be selected. So, guess what?



An issue that’s just been recently raised with the immigration department.
Looks like management playing fast and loose with work visas may bite them yet again. Forcing a Hong Kong local to retire while being eligible to continue work (with his same aged colleagues actually continuing to work) while the company informs the immigration department that there are no suitable residents in Hong Kong to perform the job.

Watch this space.

[Sam Ting Wong]

One reason for declining salaries could be voting down pay increases.

[Air Profit]

Well Sam, you don't vote for a pay increase when it's wrapped around a virtual hand grenade.

[Pickuptruck]

An issue that’s just been recently raised with the immigration department.
Looks like management playing fast and loose with work visas may bite them yet again. Forcing a Hong Kong local to retire while being eligible to continue work (with his same aged colleagues actually continuing to work) while the company informs the immigration department that there are no suitable residents in Hong Kong to perform the job.

Watch this space.


Sadly incorrect as anyone doing law 101 will tell you. No one is being forced to retire, they are just contracted to employment with Cathay until Age 55. You can be on contract for any length of time, and this one finishes at age 55. You can go fly for anyone else in Hong Kong after your contract with CX ends, you aren’t forced into retirement.

Not sure why guys are hanging onto this ridiculous notion.

[rhoshamboe]

The guy that so vociferously voiced his concerns for the membership over the so called TA16 hand grenade and effectively killed any chance of it passing has crossed the line and gone into training. Not so altruistic now apparently...

[Progress Wanchai]

Sadly incorrect as anyone doing law 101 will tell you. No one is being forced to retire, they are just contracted to employment with Cathay until Age 55. You can be on contract for any length of time, and this one finishes at age 55. You can go fly for anyone else in Hong Kong after your contract with CX ends, you aren’t forced into retirement.

Not sure why guys are hanging onto this ridiculous notion.


“Anyone else” or CX.

My little birdie tells me that the immigration department is cracking down on issuing work visas when qualified permanent residents who wish to do the job are available.
Yep, no one is being forced to retire, just the company may be forced to retain or rehire.

[Pickuptruck]

“Anyone else” or CX.

My little birdie tells me that the immigration department is cracking down on issuing work visas when qualified permanent residents who wish to do the job are available.
Yep, no one is being forced to retire, just the company may be forced to retain or rehire.
Complete bs sorry to say, if you think that this is the best approach to forcing the company to give guys who elected to stay on RA55 the opportunity to go to 65 on COS08 when COS08 doesn't exist anymore. Company won't be forced to do anything, you're dreaming. But cling to it if you need to.

[RAT Management]

“Anyone else” or CX.

My little birdie tells me that the immigration department is cracking down on issuing work visas when qualified permanent residents who wish to do the job are available.
So your basically saying: the union is useless, and all the pilots will sell themselves and others out for a few$$$. But somehow market and regulatory forces will keep giving the pilots little wins here and there, that they will celebrate this like the victory they should have had if everyone was United. It's kinda sad really. But hey, whatever floats your boat!

[Flex88]

One reason for declining salaries could be voting down pay increases.

Big fat pay increase won't help when you get #extradited to the #motherland for not calling in on RT (BOEING) or deviating around a cell without permission !

#CXit

[Sam Ting Wong]

I am not holding you back.

[BlunderBus]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but weren’t ALL pilots offered age 65 retirement years ago? The catch was that A scalers had to accept B scale terms post 55 to continue the extra 10 years. Pretty much all the older captains were on top tier pay scales so it wasn’t that much of a drop. Now the ‘I’ll never sign’ guys ..most of whom were ‘forced’ to retire at 55 up until now...are being offered new crap terms to continue to 65!! Talk about kicking an own goal. The company thinks they can’t really go anywhere at that age so they’re sticking the boot in. Inertia is a great thing for employers.
i guess we really showed ‘em again!!

[Pickuptruck]

Well Sam, you don't vote for a pay increase when it's wrapped around a virtual hand grenade.
also sadly bs. Without that clause the company can still go to town on you if there’s even a hint of the bottom line affected by “industrial action” You’re in Hong Kong, cupcake. Maybe believe the general consensus of the legal fraternity in Hong Kong and not a CX pilot giving his take on the law. If you’re too lazy/dumb/confused just Google recent court cases involving the topic in Hong Kong, the employee lost.
Ironic that the (recently back in the GC) person who ranted about voting down the payrise is now ranting about the lack of payrise.

All water under the bridge, 4 years of 6% payrise but who’s counting.

[oriental flyer]

Blunderbus;
A quick look at aviation websites lists literally 30-50 positions available for captains with a starting age of 58 or younger . Some of them are paying really good salaries so at this time you are not stuck

[ACMS]

It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time......

it ain’t that simple unfortunately.

[Pickuptruck]

It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time......

it ain’t that simple unfortunately.
actually it is. 15 days on 15 days off for pretty average pay. Or 20 on 10 off for better or max cash is 48 on 12off. The problem is CX pilots want full time pay for minimal work. If none of those options suit then maybe doing something else at 55 is the best option. Surely guys looked at this before they elected to leave at 55?

[Slasher1]

The problem is CX pilots want full time pay for minimal work.


I think this is wholly incorrect; CX pilots don't mind putting in the work for adequate compensation.

Problem is CX wants to be able to put people on a string for POTENTIAL work -- 'on call' or 'standby' or whatever you want to call it -- and not pay for it. And also be able to switch around trips (without penalty) without any input from the operating pilot. As to minimize THEIR costs with no guarantee, compensation, or recourse by the crew it affects.

This has served no one well. The company continues to collapse their own rosters and has no idea how to flow out or long term allocation of resources for maximum productivity at minimum cost. You have an hours driven process; not a days driven process. It's not a standard office job. Ideally the company pays for 900 hours per year (within FTL and contractural constraints). The major problem is there is no penalty for holding someone on a string (used or not) and for completely collapsing what should be a stable, planned, 'owned' roster. It's a one way street. In time, this breaks the assets you need to operate the machinery. And makes other leave for greener pastures.

The net result is wild swings into overtime, unfit crew, increased costs, and decreased productivity.

It's an old adage that some of the most expensive things are 'free' and that by being a cheap bastage you often wind up paying a great deal more than you otherwise would need to.

[Pickuptruck]

I think this is wholly incorrect; CX pilots don't mind putting in the work for adequate compensation.

Problem is CX wants to be able to put people on a string for POTENTIAL work -- 'on call' or 'standby' or whatever you want to call it -- and not pay for it. And also be able to switch around trips (without penalty) without any input from the operating pilot. As to minimize THEIR costs with no guarantee, compensation, or recourse by the crew it affects.

This has served no one well. The company continues to collapse their own rosters and has no idea how to flow out or long term allocation of resources for maximum productivity at minimum cost. You have an hours driven process; not a days driven process. It's not a standard office job. Ideally the company pays for 900 hours per year (within FTL and contractural constraints). The major problem is there is no penalty for holding someone on a string (used or not) and for completely collapsing what should be a stable, planned, 'owned' roster. It's a one way street. In time, this breaks the assets you need to operate the machinery. And makes other leave for greener pastures.

The net result is wild swings into overtime, unfit crew, increased costs, and decreased productivity.

It's an old adage that some of the most expensive things are 'free' and that by being a cheap bastage you often wind up paying a great deal more than you otherwise would need to.
I was referring to the guys on RA55 not happy with what’s out there for contract jobs. But if CX is such rubbish as you’re alluding to and so is everything else then maybe there’s nowhere in aviation in 2019 that some guys would be happy.

[Slasher1]

I was referring to the guys on RA55 not happy with what’s out there for contract jobs. But if CX is such rubbish as you’re alluding to and so is everything else then maybe there’s nowhere in aviation in 2019 that some guys would be happy.

i know many colleagues who have moved on and are in aviation in 2019. Without exception they ARE happy and none have regretted the decision.

[cxorcist]

i know many colleagues who have moved on and are in aviation in 2019. Without exception they ARE happy and none have regretted the decision.

I agree. I don’t know a single pilot who has left CX that regrets it. Is this just confirmation bias or reality? There’s no way to know for sure. My sense is that it’s a bit of both. Money isn’t everything; and once a pilot fully embraces the lifestyle options available at many other airlines, that fact becomes tangible.

[Freehills]

It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time......

it ain’t that simple unfortunately.

obvious thing to do is retire then and be at home all the time

[Sam Ting Wong]

I agree. I don’t know a single pilot who has left CX that regrets it. Is this just confirmation bias or reality? There’s no way to know for sure. My sense is that it’s a bit of both. Money isn’t everything; and once a pilot fully embraces the lifestyle options available at many other airlines, that fact becomes tangible.

If money isn't everything to you I don't know what is. You are complaining about this place now for how long? 5 or 10 years?

[ACMS]

Freehills........Sure no worries, you want to payout my mortgage for me?

Not all of us are multi millionaires mate from HK property.

[ACMS]

actually it is. 15 days on 15 days off for pretty average pay. Or 20 on 10 off for better or max cash is 48 on 12off. The problem is CX pilots want full time pay for minimal work. If none of those options suit then maybe doing something else at 55 is the best option. Surely guys looked at this before they elected to leave at 55?



last time I got my calculator out 15 days was 2 weeks.

so, some of us don’t want or can’t be away from HOME for that long....for **** money.

ok.

[ACMS]

I agree. I don’t know a single pilot who has left CX that regrets it. Is this just confirmation bias or reality? There’s no way to know for sure. My sense is that it’s a bit of both. Money isn’t everything; and once a pilot fully embraces the lifestyle options available at many other airlines, that fact becomes tangible.


I know one TC off the 777 that every time he sees a CX 777 kicks himself for leaving at 43 yo...
life after CX for some isn’t all that fantastic....

[Sam Ting Wong]

It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time......

it ain’t that simple unfortunately.


In my experience commuting is the problem. Just because it is technically possible ( barely mostly) doesn't mean it is a good long-term strategy.

You can mess up any pilot job in the world with the decision to commute.

[Air Profit]

Suffice to say, I suspect the vast majority of pilots who have left the dysfunctional madhouse that is CX are not regretting their decision. One or two...maybe, but there are always a few who never find career stability and satisfaction. No doubting that such a concept is now nothing but an illusion at Cathay. Nearly all the FO's and SO's i've flown with in the past 24 months have indicated a desire to be somewhere else. And when I say "nearly all", I mean that specifically. Another sign of an abjectly failed management.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So why do they stay then?

And is that also the fault of Cathay?

Every F/O and every S/O in the company has exactly the conditions of service he of she signed up for.

[Air Profit]

Sam, that's the point...they aren't staying. Almost one a day at current rate. They barely have the same number on the seniority list today as a year ago...and they've hired about 350 cadets in that time. And yes, nearly everything negative about CX today IS the company's fault. I'd list them all, but this is a new computer and if I did so, it would be like ageing the keyboard by 5 years ! As for the current pilots having "exactly" the conditions they signed for, yes, and most have quickly realised it's unworkable in the long term, which is why most are quietly making plans to leave.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Let's assume for the sake of the argument your numbers are right.

I don't understand why this is your or my problem. So they leave again, or think about leaving, or don't leave but would like to leave, or maybe they stay for now and leave in a few years etc etc.

So what?

[cxorcist]

Let's assume for the sake of the argument your numbers are right.

I don't understand why this is your or my problem. So they leave again, or think about leaving, or don't leave but would like to leave, or maybe they stay for now and leave in a few years etc etc.

So what?



High turnover rates are very bad for the airline over time. The product, culture, and ultimately profits (losses) of the airline become detached from those providing them. The intangible efforts trend towards zero, and all that is left is a zombie workforce churning out a marginal product, a negative culture, and very likely resulting in low or no profits.

Airline operations are not producing widgets (Coca Cola) in some Chinese factory. They are complex and dynamic. Western airlines have figured this out. Sadly, CX is where those airlines were about a generation (20-30 years) ago. The Management thinks it can simply cut its way to profitability. Wrong! They need to provide VALUE for both the customers AND the employees!!! Right now, they are doing neither in most cases.

[Samsonite]

Have any of you ever worked for an airline that uses strict seniority which most here only quote when beneficial to them would know that many airlines with strict seniority have increased their retirement age. The younger generation in those airlines didn't complain as they too get to retire at 65 if they so wish.

[Progress Wanchai]

Have any of you ever worked for an airline that uses strict seniority which most here only quote when beneficial to them would know that many airlines with strict seniority have increased their retirement age. The younger generation in those airlines didn't complain as they too get to retire at 65 if they so wish.

Not just other airlines.

ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006.

[Dan Winterland]

Not just other airlines.

ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006.

The industry is projecting manning requirements based on RA65, but one common them is that pilots are just not lasting that long. I would say that 60 is the common retirement age within my peer group. The changes to the industry in remuneration and workload means that guys are finding the job is not worth it, or too exhausting. Or both. It's health vs wealth. There's no point in an early death as a rich man.

[Natca]

Not just other airlines.

ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006.


Right but you have never worked at an airline with 4 pay scales based on different life expectations.

[Pickuptruck]

Suffice to say, I suspect the vast majority of pilots who have left the dysfunctional madhouse that is CX are not regretting their decision. One or two...maybe, but there are always a few who never find career stability and satisfaction. No doubting that such a concept is now nothing but an illusion at Cathay. Nearly all the FO's and SO's i've flown with in the past 24 months have indicated a desire to be somewhere else. And when I say "nearly all", I mean that specifically. Another sign of an abjectly failed management.
And a year or so ago 92% of AOA members said they were looking elsewhere. CX pilots talk the talk and bitch and moan with the best of them but they don’t walk the walk.
The fact is for all the “everyone I flew with is leaving” the numbers actually going are tiny. Yes it might have shot up a bit late last year and earlier this year but now it’s back where it’s been for the last 20 years.
No surprise the company isn’t offering much in the pay talks.

[Air Profit]

...."the numbers leaving are tiny"... You call over 300 a year "tiny". Ok, there is a place for you in management.

[Pickuptruck]

...."the numbers leaving are tiny"... You call over 300 a year "tiny". Ok, there is a place for you in management.
sadly there isn’t 300 a year. It might have spiked there back in Jan and you’ve multiplied by 12 and got all excited.
We’re at 3%
The burning desire everyone has to believe lots are leaving month after month and the company is going to offer massive payrises as a result is delusional.
Facts vs la-la land.
Great for the company though, the deluded amongst us do nothing for the next 10 years, hanging onto CC/TB waiting for that pay offer.

[Sam Ting Wong]

2019 will be the year of the reality check.

For 53% of the people in the UK and the 80% plus in CX that like to reject pay offers because they think they have leverage.

Sadly, in both cases the damage is done.

[Asturias56]

"The product, culture, and ultimately profits (losses) of the airline become detached from those providing them. The intangible efforts trend towards zero, and all that is left is a zombie workforce churning out a marginal product, a negative culture, and very likely resulting in low or no profits."

Possibly the best description of the modern airline business world-wide I've seen......................

It's what you get when barriers to entry are low and you give the customer exactly what they want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPyl2tOaKxM

[Sam Ting Wong]

I really wonder if I work in the same airline. What are you guys complaining about all day?

I look at my earnings last year, the hours flown, the number of days off, the savings I could made, gain of my real estate, just fine really. More than fine.Excellent actually.

I can't even remember a bad line check, I used business class ID90 multiple times, never got bumped off, my kids in excellent and mostly paid-for schools, I had 42 days of leave, the aircraft I operated were in good shape, new destinations, more a/c on order, etc etc

I don't get it.

[mngmt mole]

Good for you Sam. I'm sure that is just what most of the pilots at CX are experiencing. It's nirvana here.

[Sam Ting Wong]

What is it that YOU find so intolerable?

You, as I presume, a B scale captain with housing like me.

What is it that makes life so miserable here that you complain since years now.

Give me five points.

Five hard facts that show the world how unfair, how bad it is here.

[Apple Tree Yard]

I'll answer that:

1) effective lack of control of your life
2) constant erosion of pay and benefits (below average pay raises/no pay raises)
3) extortionate staff travel costs (the newly hired pilots can't even afford to travel in J due cost)
4) if you are on the "wrong" fleet, you might as well be working for a different airline
5) unaccountable management

....you only wanted 5, could go on and on.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I'll answer that:

1) effective lack of control of your life
2) constant erosion of pay and benefits (below average pay raises/no pay raises)
3) extortionate staff travel costs (the newly hired pilots can't even afford to travel in J due cost)
4) if you are on the "wrong" fleet, you might as well be working for a different airline
5) unaccountable management

....you only wanted 5, could go on and on.


Exactly what I thought, you can't name anything real or tangible.

1) How so? You have two or three times more days off than any regular employee in any other industry.
What do you mean? Roster changes? Really?
2) You made what last year, 300 k USD after tax?
3) 4 sectors ID 90 business class for almost free for you and your familiy. And regular ID90 is not affordable or good enough for you? Please leave others out, only personal experience
4) I am on the "wrong" fleet. What exactly is wrong with 500 hours block per year and 200 plus days off???
5) What does that even mean?

You got nothing accountable, just what I expected.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Cxorcist? Air Profit? Anyone?

Facts only!

[Avinthenews]

Cxorcist? Air Profit? Anyone?

Facts only!

Are you a communist, you seem to compare apples to oranges, we are pilots so don't go comparing us to "others", compare us to like positions in other like airlines.

747 crews can expect over a hundred roster changes a year, legacy airlines like BA/QF can count yearly roster changes on their hands. Limited hours didn't equal more Gs, 12 day US patterns worth 30-40hrs is a far cry from back to back North America patterns worth some 60+ hours.

How about you do some research on other airlines rosters pay staff travel and retirement schemes and quit with comparing us to anyone who has zero to do with being a pilot.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The roster changes are mostly down route, part of the business and largely irrelevant.

Sometimes we come home a few hours later than advertised. So what? What important social event you are missing?

I am on your fleet, so please stick to the truth.

I flew 500 hours last year. You? Days off? 200 or 220?

My guess is you are commuting and THAT is the core problem.

PS Speaking of communists and comparing apples with oranges.. You make about double the money of a QF guy after tax..

[tiredofstupidity]

A few hours late? I agree with what most of you say in terms of pay and benefits. However I am on the 747 and you are clearly not. I’m thrilled when I make it home on the same day. The roster changes down route are most certainly relevant as it becomes difficult to plan sleep and the fatigue is real. Again you clearly have never done it or you wouldn’t be spouting off like a moron.

Other than that it’s hard to argue. With a couple kids in school, a mortgage and a decent salary there are precisely zero higher paying airline jobs on the planet.

Even on the **** fleet I average 11 Gs a month. So call it max 180 days off. However at least 50% of those are being legitimately used for recovery and of little use as a day “off”. So while I still consider the money out for work in decent, you and I are clearly having different CX experiences. I hope to have your experience one day, sounds lovely.

[Brown Nose]

So Sam, which one of the new trainer scabs are you? If everyone was as much an idiot as you we would be on half the pay we are on now with no housing. It astounds me how supposedly intelligent people are actually so stupid.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So what you are saying is, that by refusing a payrise, you saved us from earning half?

Just when you think reason just might settle in someone like you shows up.

I am out, this is hopeless.

[Flex88]

So what you are saying is, that by refusing a payrise, you saved us from earning half?

Just when you think reason just might settle in someone like you shows up.

I am out, this is hopeless.


I refuse to believe someone can be this dense and simple. Oh, wait - management or recent trainer !!!

[Air Profit]

Sam, If you want to be a mouthpiece for management, have at it. Most of us in this airline sense and experience the dysfunction, incompetence, family disruption, career doubts and visceral fear of the future that this management has ably manifested. Arguing with you is futile. The airline is broken, and somehow you seem to feel sunlight shines out of its aXX. Enjoy your obviously perfect world.

[Piet Lood]

PB!

In case you were wondering.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You are not fighting, you are jeopardizing our terms and conditions.

Your tantrums of the last years not only achieved absolutely nothing. We are going backwards.

The decline of TA16 and the delayed promotions due to the TB combined will cost us millions.

Each of us.

The company called our bluff and as a result will simply complete ignore whatever we say.
Granted, that was almost always the case in the past, but there was some goodwill present at times.

That is gone forever.

POS18 was introduced while you guys were "fighting".

If that alone is not clear evidence of the failure of your strategy then I don't know what is.

The training ban is dead. Hundreds of positions are already been filled up, demand resulting in oversubscription. They now even have a waiting list.

You guys in effect destroyed the union.

I was right from the beginning and deep down you all know it.

[Air Profit]

Sanctimonious: Look it up Sam. As far as "jeopardizing our terms and conditions"...? Have you not looked at POS 18? There is nothing to jeopardize as the conditions are already worthless...mainly because people like you hid in your bunker and prayed "i'll be alright jack". The real cause of the present failure is the fact that we are riddled with either people like you, or people like those that have cravenly sold out their colleagues for a new training position. Between those two groups of individuals, the rest of us who have honoured the ban and voted down the poisoned chalice of the company's recent offers have found our efforts devalued and treated with contempt. I expect that from the company's management, but sadly didn't expect it from my own colleagues. I will enjoy treating the new trainers with the wholesale contempt that they deserve, and will also accept that the company has won this round. Ultimately, the eventual loser will be the company, as they force many of their pilots to resign and take their career aspirations elsewhere. The company will eventually reap what they sow.

[oriental flyer]

I don’t know why anyone engages Sam ting ding a ling , he is clearly deranged or management, I suspect the latter

[Pickuptruck]

The sad part is no one on the 777 or airbus fleet actually gives a f*ck about the 747 and all the issues the fleet has. If they did they would put fleet transfer on seniority and all the other 747 issues at the top of the list of things they want.
The truth is you won’t find a more selfish bunch than pilots at CX looking out for themselves.
The obvious answer is that the 747 issues get solved first but guys on the airbus or 777 are more interested in rosters and pay increases.
As with everything, CX pilots talk the talk but they don’t walk the walk.

[Pickuptruck]

Sanctimonious: Look it up Sam. As far as "jeopardizing our terms and conditions"...? Have you not looked at POS 18? There is nothing to jeopardize as the conditions are already worthless...mainly because people like you hid in your bunker and prayed "i'll be alright jack". The real cause of the present failure is the fact that we are riddled with either people like you, or people like those that have cravenly sold out their colleagues for a new training position. Between those two groups of individuals, the rest of us who have honoured the ban and voted down the poisoned chalice of the company's recent offers have found our efforts devalued and treated with contempt. I expect that from the company's management, but sadly didn't expect it from my own colleagues. I will enjoy treating the new trainers with the wholesale contempt that they deserve, and will also accept that the company has won this round. Ultimately, the eventual loser will be the company, as they force many of their pilots to resign and take their career aspirations elsewhere. The company will eventually reap what they sow.
And yet nearly all who want to continue flying past 55 will sign COS18. If the company will let them.

[Air Profit]

Pickup, be careful not to paint us all with a broad brush. I am on the 777, and I completely agree that the issue of fleet transfer (or alternatively, a more humane rostering method) off the 747 should be priority number 1. You guys are abused and treated with contempt by the company, and without a proper method of assuring that all of you being entitled to the same opportunities that the rest of the fleets have, there really is no way to begin to stabilise the airline and ensure a brighter future for all. It should be the most important issue to solve before anything else.

[Air Profit]

Pickup, the "old and broke" crowd are a small percentage...but yes, you are correct, another own goal in seeing our conditions reduced even further. Between craven TB breakers, 55 COS18 sign ups and the fact that we can and will recruit from anywhere with any level of experience, there really is no other conclusion to draw that there will never be a proper "career" at CX. It is an airline of mercenaries and school kids. Even the management are mercenaries, dropping in a for a few years to make a few $$ off the backs of further cuts in our pay and benefits. Anyone under the age of 45 who is still here and not looking for an exit is mad, and they will surely regret not leaving when they had the chance. Ultimately, many of us are close to leaving (as is myself) so it is academic. For many of you, your entire career and it's possibilities rest on coming to terms with the fact that CX will chew you up and spit you out, probably broke and desperate by the time you get to the 55 point. Find an airline that provides decent pay, regulated work rules, somewhere your wife and kids can settle and have a normal life. You will ultimately be far happier. Doubt that?...then simply recognise the festering depression of your CX colleagues and their fatalistic outlook on just about everything. That is the consequence of 25 years of applied degradation to your worth and importance as a pilot in this organisation. They have the worst of the worst managing our airline so there should be no confusion as to why we are at the point we are. Desperate people on both sides of the aisle at CX, and what you get is the visible dysfunction and chaos that you see. It will not get better....ever.

[Slasher1]

Well said, AP.

What can you say about a place where friends and colleagues are given heartfelt congratulations when they move on to another aviation career. And folks are genuinely happy for them that they got out.

[Freehills]

Meanwhile the purchase of HK Express is going forward full speed, so routes can be transferred to even ‘more efficient’ operation in the region. Expect ‘benchmarking’ to UO T&C

[Farman Biplane]

If the RA65 option was introduced to ALL CX pilots, regardless of COS/rank/base/etc, without financial penalty to any of the officers, then this would never have been an issue.

IT WAS NOT OFFERED THIS WAY BY CX.

My understanding is that there is no issue at KA as RA65 was just introduced unilaterally without penalty.

Perhaps the HKAOA should explore that precedent?

[mr did]

They cant train their way out of what is happening right now regardless of how many defect to new TC positions. QF are about to restart their sausage factory after they had to stop to train more trainers , BA, Virgin and Air Canada are accelerating. This is the relevant threat to Cathay, which is being turbo charged by an unsupervised HR empire and their COS shenanigans. Almost every 350 and 777 pilot above SO rank in this company is being rostered to high 90 hour months and has been since January. Christmas/CNY should be defining as to what gets offered to keep people here: accelerating resignations/retirements and the remainers on 900 hour maximums = parked aircraft.

The solution is a proper monetary response to housing and extensions or a piecemeal trickle which will offend and accelerate the departures. I think most of us can guess which it will be.

[Natca]

If the RA65 option was introduced to ALL CX pilots, regardless of COS/rank/base/etc, without financial penalty to any of the officers, then this would never have been an issue.

IT WAS NOT OFFERED THIS WAY BY CX.

My understanding is that there is no issue at KA as RA65 was just introduced unilaterally without penalty.

Perhaps the HKAOA should explore that precedent?


Farman - retire and enjoy your money and let the rest of us enjoy a normal upgrade time. RA65 will kill this airline.... want to see EVERY FO leave? Give these old folks RA65 and bye bye every COS08 person with any flight time..... RA65 instantly adds 5/10 years to any upgrade time. Where the rest of the world upgrade is 5-10 years to begin with, RA65 would be crewing suicide for an already understaffed in the FO level airline.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Anybody ever wondered why that mythical pilot shortage is always only about to happen ?

[el commandante]

Farman - retire and enjoy your money and let the rest of us enjoy a normal upgrade time. RA65 will kill this airline.... want to see EVERY FO leave? Give these old folks RA65 and bye bye every COS08 person with any flight time..... RA65 instantly adds 5/10 years to any upgrade time. Where the rest of the world upgrade is 5-10 years to begin with, RA65 would be crewing suicide for an already understaffed in the FO level airline.

Wow!
How about ending CC and the training ban.

I'm surprised how most FO's can't see how they shot themselves in the foot with not accepting the last offer or the previous one that is.

[mr did]

Anybody ever wondered why that mythical pilot shortage is always only about to happen ?


WW 2 veterans in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and Vietnam vets from the 70s until now. Tens of thousands of ex military pilots in the system, all the same age. All the Vietnam vets are in their 60s now hence the huge projected shortfall in the US due to those retirements. Same in Aus (massive QF recruitment) and the UK. (BA and Virgin) Combine that with subsidence living new pilot wages and conditions that stops most sane people from even looking at this as a career...

It's actually happening now.

[Farman Biplane]

Natca maybe you weren’t here for this quote?

Nick Rhodes “time to command will decrease with the introduction of RA65”

All of the FO’s then experienced INCREASED time to command, so what is the difference with the next mob?

The whole industry has been affected by mandated RA issues.

[OK4Wire]

Agree, Mr Did. It's a process, not an event.

[Flex88]

Anybody ever wondered why that mythical pilot shortage is always only about to happen ?Really ??


Perfect example of shortage, "you" got hired, !!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Turbine,

interesting thought and you definitively got a point there, no doubt.

My counter argument would be a question: is it then always imperative to follow the mainstream, regardless of one's own conviction?

I would dispute that. There has to be a point were you just need to stand up for your opinion and refuse to follow the crowd.

The lack of commitment to a unified team you are accusing me of is exactly my argument.
You are rightly saying it doesn't matter if I am right or wrong as long as nobody is following me. But how many are following you? I did not think we have the unity in the first place, and I think history proved me right. You are asking me if I am on your team, but don't you see there is no such thing in Cathay? We are in at least a dozen different teams, all with our different priorities, may it be HKPA, RA55 or base XYZ. What might be right for one group is totally wrong for another. The unity you are asking for is not realistic in my opinion. I am just honest and pragmatic about it, and the reward is being shot as the messenger.

I deeply believe the strategy of the last years is wrong.If you have such a diverse group you will never be able to act successfully as aggressively and militant as it appears the plan is. It will fail.

Wether I am right or not in the end is a different matter. I frankly don't know nor can I ever know for sure.

[bm330]

The conviction that yours is the only opinion that matters is exactly why you will always be on the outside looking in. The power of any collective is measured in the commitment of its members to the benefit of all.

[Sam Ting Wong]

But that is exactly my point. The power of our collective is in my opinion not strong enough because of the lack of commitment ( and diverse goals).

The problem is you guys act as if that unity was present ( and the legal framework) and just a few "outsiders" disagree. This is factual not the case.

It is not "only my opinion that matters", the problem is that there is no unified opinion.

Furthermore, the way these different opinions were met in the cockpit, on the HKAOA forum and in here (see Flex88 above) are not helpful. It is now too often a primitive shouting and blame game, a sure sign of the rising nervousness in the face of defeat. We will see a sharp fall in union membership rates is my prediction.

[RAT Management]

But that is exactly my point. The power of our collective is in my opinion not strong enough because of the lack of commitment ( and diverse goals).

The problem is you guys act as if that unity was present ( and the legal framework) and just a few "outsiders" disagree. This is factual not the case.

It is not "only my opinion that matters", the problem is that there is no unified opinion.

Furthermore, the way these different opinions were met in the cockpit, on the HKAOA forum and in here (see Flex88 above) are not helpful. It is now too often a primitive shouting and blame game, a sure sign of the rising nervousness in the face of defeat. We will see a sharp fall in union membership rates is my prediction.
Sam ting Wong,

You make a valid point. I have never agreed with your opinions in the past, like we should have taken what was on the table in either of the last two offers. I still don't believe we would have been better off by taking them in the long run. And I am glad the union sent them back. Maybe that is the only victory we will have, because as you said the lack of unity displayed has prevented anything else from occurring.

So your observations about the lack of unity in the so called union are spot on. The strategy has failed,anyone who thinks otherwise, well you get the point. It's all over and the only thing for those still Manning the picket lines is to decide if they stay or go. Some have gone already and good luck to em. But for the rest, you need to make a choice.

Move beyond speaks volumes, is it a coincidence this is the motto the company is pushing so heavily.

FOP, have addressed the issues the last two ex DFO's created by imposing corrections to the ARAPA and HKPA and RPs. The morale on the other hand can't be imposed, and that I think is permanently damaged, because nobody except for the few who have recently crossed over give a damn! I have never seen that before!

Will we ever see a pay rise. I doubt it. Not unless market forces dictate. So that means all the B- scalers will wither on the vine and the C scale will also find themselves with the target on their back like the B Scalers were and the A Scalers before them, once the D scalers have critical mass.

Basically the only hope for anything by way of improvements in life style and financial reward will be dictated by market forces. With the demand for cheap fares, the line in the sand for pilot remuneration has been agreed by way of gentlemen's agreement in the dark halls of IATA.

For Fatiguing rosters that improvement will only come from individuals when there is a shift to using their professional obligations to not sign on rather than push thru. Unfortunately we have all been conditioned to completing the next task on the roster and believe just because it says it's legal means it must be do-able. But the reality is just cos it's legal it does not mean it's do-able in the long run or in combination with previous duties, or personal circumstances.

Game over.

[Air Profit]

The only certainty is for a continual, slow but inexorable deterioration of our pay, benefits and working conditions. Each year without at last an inflation matching pay raise is a pay cut. CMP has effectively gutted what little control we had over our rosters, and the benefits and overall contract terms are now backstopped by COS18. The slow boiling of the frogs (us) is well and truly in the final temperature range resulting in death (and I mean that literally, as pilots are coming down with serious illness and sudden death at an all too alarming rate at this airline). CX management do not care one whit about your lifestyle, family concerns or overall long term health and care. Chew you up, spit you out, replace with cheaper. That is the entire business model summed up. If you like the sound of that, stay and enjoy. Otherwise, wake up and take advantage of the best hiring environment in 30 years. It won't last forever, and in the meantime many others are getting on those seniority lists ahead of you.

[Steve the Pirate]

If you like the sound of that, stay and enjoy. Otherwise, wake up and take advantage of the best hiring environment in 30 years.

Serious question: what about you? Are you staying and enjoying or taking the advantage of the hiring market? I get the distinct impression that you don't enjoy it here so the logical conclusion must be that you're looking elsewhere - unless of course there are millions of reasons for you to stay? Even if you're coming to the end of your career, surely there's no reason to stay, other than financial, if you're so clearly miserable?

STP

[Air Profit]

Steve, perhaps if you read some of my comments a few further back in the thread you could have saved yourself a bit of trouble and effort? :rolleyes: Still, it's always interesting to come across implied apologists for the company. Don't know what the company would do without them...

[Steve the Pirate]

Steve, perhaps if you read some of my comments a few further back in the thread you could have saved yourself a bit of trouble and effort? :rolleyes: Still, it's always interesting to come across implied apologists for the company. Don't know what the company would do without them...

Air Profit, I've just re-read all of your posts on this thread, and the only comment that alludes to anything that vaguely relates to my question is this snippet:

Ultimately, many of us are close to leaving (as is myself) so it is academic.

However, my question is still pertinent I think. By being close to leaving do you mean looking elsewhere, or retiring? The inference I drew was that you are close to retirement, otherwise I sense you would have stated that you were close to heading off to greener pastures. In fact, I think you would have been unable not to tell us all that that was indeed the case. Either way, with reference to your leaving, define close. I think my point of staying if you're miserable, regardless of how long you have, is still valid - why waste your life?

I'm not an apologist, and the question really had nothing to do with the company but everything to do with you. However, if you'd prefer not to share then, by all means, carry on with the ad hominems.

STP

[Apple Tree Yard]

Good grief Steve. You've spent years on this site being a sarcastic wind up merchant, and now you throw out the "ad-hominem" comment? The points that AP made were right on target. It's irrelevant what he is or is not doing personally. Doesn't take away from the cold hard truth he laid out. Seriously, thin skinned much?

[Steve the Pirate]

Good grief Steve. You've spent years on this site being a sarcastic wind up merchant, and now you throw out the "ad-hominem" comment? The points that AP made were right on target. It's irrelevant what he is or is not doing personally. Doesn't take away from the cold hard truth he laid out. Seriously, thin skinned much?

OK, where do I start? I might be seen as a sarcastic wind up merchant by some but I like to think I often pose thought provoking questions. Not once did I imply that I thought Air Profit's points were invalid; I simply asked him what I felt to be a relevant question with regard to his statement about enjoyment of CX/HKG versus moving on to elsewhere. I agree, to some degree, that his own upcoming movements are irrelevant to his position but it would add credence to his argument if he were to state what is going on in his life vis-à-vis said position: he can't have it both ways, saying on one hand that people should seek employment elsewhere while at the same time 'enduring' his remaining time here - why not simply leave?

With respect to the ad hominem comment, he implied that he thinks that I'm apologist for the company when nothing in my post suggested anything of the sort. It seems that because I had the temerity to ask what I thought was a relevant question with respect to his position on this topic, rather than answering or debating he decided instead to label me as apologist for the company which, in my opinion, was a weak argument - in fact, a non-argument. To me, that would be the very definition of an ad hominem attack. Consequently, I don't agree (naturally) with your thin skinned assessment of my character.

For the record, I think that Air Profit makes some very valid points and I would certainly not encourage any of my children to join CX as it stands today. In fact I wouldn't encourage any of my children to follow a career in aviation because the halcyon days, that we all long for, are well and truly over.

STP

[Pickuptruck]

OK, where do I start? I might be seen as a sarcastic wind up merchant by some but I like to think I often pose thought provoking questions. Not once did I imply that I thought Air Profit's points were invalid; I simply asked him what I felt to be a relevant question with regard to his statement about enjoyment of CX/HKG versus moving on to elsewhere. I agree, to some degree, that his own upcoming movements are irrelevant to his position but it would add credence to his argument if he were to state what is going on in his life vis-à-vis said position: he can't have it both ways, saying on one hand that people should seek employment elsewhere while at the same time 'enduring' his remaining time here - why not simply leave?

With respect to the ad hominem comment, he implied that he thinks that I'm apologist for the company when nothing in my post suggested anything of the sort. It seems that because I had the temerity to ask what I thought was a relevant question with respect to his position on this topic, rather than answering or debating he decided instead to label me as apologist for the company which, in my opinion, was a weak argument - in fact, a non-argument. To me, that would be the very definition of an ad hominem attack. Consequently, I don't agree (naturally) with your thin skinned assessment of my character.

For the record, I think that Air Profit makes some very valid points and I would certainly not encourage any of my children to join CX as it stands today. In fact I wouldn't encourage any of my children to follow a career in aviation because the halcyon days, that we all long for, are well and truly over.

STP
You ladies should get a room.

Meanwhile amongst the dozens and dozens of AOA members who applied, sadly only a few could be chosen. A committed and fortunate few who will remain in the AOA, as is their right, have been selected for management positions.

Switch off the oven and take out the CC/TB, it's completely cooked.........

[RAT Management]

STW was right. The AOA lost the game when they had it in the bag. The lack of unity that has always been the weakest link killed the game this time. The same as it did last time... Will anyone learn? I totally doubt it. The goose is cooked. The horse has been flogged. And you have expended your entire repoetoir of dance moves in the first minute of the song only to realise it's a 10 minute extended dance mix. Now you stand there doing the 80's side foot shuffle while everyone else cuts loose.

[mr did]

The AOA lost the game when they had it in the bag

I still find it disconcerting that people on these forums think the AOA are responsible for any of this.

What the AOA has done quite effectively is dramatically advance the game to the inevitable conclusion: the shortage of pilots due to the continued reduction of employment conditions. The AOA aren't the architects of this current mess, the Rhodes/Slosar supervised HR director and the DFO are. These two "Juniors" are incentivised financially to steal money from you and your family, so they are. More training captains now mean pilots become employable by QF and BA sooner. For any expat pilot (with a passport that is "usable") employed in the last 10 years, there is no longer a financial incentive to stay here, others now pay better and offer better career prospects. Especially now with COS18. Skilled and experienced Pilots are leaving en mass and replacements aren't even turning up for interviews.

The only way to "win the game" is to wait for the owners of this Airline to realise that long term profitability is at risk due to a couple of egos and director bonus packets. I wonder how long it will be before they realise these junior directors are about to cost them significant money and market share. Anyone want to be the new HR director?

[Pickuptruck]

I still find it disconcerting that people on these forums think the AOA are responsible for any of this.

What the AOA has done quite effectively is dramatically advance the game to the inevitable conclusion: the shortage of pilots due to the continued reduction of employment conditions. The AOA aren't the architects of this current mess, the Rhodes/Slosar supervised HR director and the DFO are. These two "Juniors" are incentivised financially to steal money from you and your family, so they are. More training captains now mean pilots become employable by QF and BA sooner. For any expat pilot (with a passport that is "usable") employed in the last 10 years, there is no longer a financial incentive to stay here, others now pay better and offer better career prospects. Especially now with COS18. Skilled and experienced Pilots are leaving en mass and replacements aren't even turning up for interviews.

The only way to "win the game" is to wait for the owners of this Airline to realise that long term profitability is at risk due to a couple of egos and director bonus packets. I wonder how long it will be before they realise these junior directors are about to cost them significant money and market share. Anyone want to be the new HR director?
So what you’re saying is the more that break the ban and join training the stronger the AOA’s position is in negotiations with the company?
Just, wow.
Put down the crackpipe. Guys aren’t leaving, this whole idea that we do nothing and resignations get us a payrise and better T & C is so retarded it defies belief.
But it’s easy.

[mngmt mole]

Face facts: CX is now basically a LCC in all but name. The morale is equivalent to the worst of the LCC world, and so are the relative pay and benefits. People are barely on the line 6 months and are already looking for better opportunities. Long term FO's (10-11 yr) are resigning and starting over at their home carriers. Sickness levels are at industry highs, and so on and so on. The game is over at CX. It's a "job", but not much else anymore. There is really no career left here, and certainly there is little hope of a financially rewarding one. If you have a family, you will barely be at subsistence levels. CX is now only a name, and the substance and uniqueness that once marked the airline as a special career opportunity is long gone. If you value your career, your health, your family's happiness, then the sooner you are with an established carrier back home the sooner life will settle down and you can start living again. Not many of us left at CX can say we are actually "living"....just lurching from one unsatisfying and fatiguing roster to the next.

[mr did]

So what you’re saying is the more that break the ban and join training the stronger the AOA’s position is in negotiations with the company?


That's what you got out of the whole post?

Let me help you: whatever is happening in the heads of those who are breaking the training ban is for their own reconciliation, and reputations. Of course it doesn't help that some have chosen to do this, but the end game isn't materially affected as the package on offer now is so bad that market forces will make even that selfish act irrelevant. We are running out of pilots because the current money and career prospects are so rubbish that even with the new trainers, there aren't the resources to replace the hundreds that are waiting for start dates or retiring.

Lastly, you wont get a pay rise or better conditions for the rest of your time with this company. I think that is the "idea" most have, which is why they ARE leaving.

[RAT Management]

Face facts: CX is now basically a LCC in all but name. The morale is equivalent to the worst of the LCC world, and so are the relative pay and benefits. People are barely on the line 6 months and are already looking for better opportunities. Long term FO's (10-11 yr) are resigning and starting over at their home carriers. Sickness levels are at industry highs, and so on and so on. The game is over at CX. It's a "job", but not much else anymore. There is really no career left here, and certainly there is little hope of a financially rewarding one. If you have a family, you will barely be at subsistence levels. CX is now only a name, and the substance and uniqueness that once marked the airline as a special career opportunity is long gone. If you value your career, your health, your family's happiness, then the sooner you are with an established carrier back home the sooner life will settle down and you can start living again. Not many of us left at CX can say we are actually "living"....just lurching from one unsatisfying and fatiguing roster to the next.
Spot on! Plus one from me.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Cathay is so short on pilots, they even offer unpaid leave now.

[Pickuptruck]

That's what you got out of the whole post?

Let me help you: whatever is happening in the heads of those who are breaking the training ban is for their own reconciliation, and reputations. Of course it doesn't help that some have chosen to do this, but the end game isn't materially affected as the package on offer now is so bad that market forces will make even that selfish act irrelevant. We are running out of pilots because the current money and career prospects are so rubbish that even with the new trainers, there aren't the resources to replace the hundreds that are waiting for start dates or retiring.

Lastly, you wont get a pay rise or better conditions for the rest of your time with this company. I think that is the "idea" most have, which is why they ARE leaving.
You're full of BS. I've seen the figures and there ain't that many leaving. Even a monkey can read the seniority list and figure that out. Wish more would leave, then the company would be enthusiastic about extending the guys on RA55. If you wanted an obvious example of how the factual turnover isn't high, they're happy to let guys with a lot of experience head out the door at 55 because not many are actually quitting before then.

[cxorcist]

Cathay is so short on pilots, they even offer unpaid leave now.

I haven’t heard a peep about unpaid leave. What fleet / seats?

[mngmt mole]

Pickup...I take it you are on 55 ? :rolleyes: As for your "there ain't that many leaving" comment, I guess that's the reason i'm on overtime every month, I keep getting called out as relief when on reserve, and my emails to and from colleagues that have all left in the past 24 months or so are just a figment of my imagination. And yes, as Cxerocst says above, what unpaid leave/seats/fleets??

[Sam Ting Wong]

Latest FCN

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Offered all of July off as ULV plus two other opportunities earlier in 2019.

You might not think ULV is happening but then you might not have your finger on the pulse!

Latest FCN

[Apple Tree Yard]

Had a chat with a colleague who works "upstairs". The ULV is not due to an "excess" of aircrew, it's due to CX's usual incompetence that has resulted in a misallocation of aircrew on the wrong fleets. The true measure of aircrew levels is whether or not all allowed leave is allocated across the airline. In fact, they barely allocated little more than half this years leave (doubt that, go and have a look at available slots vs number of crew in each position and base).

[Bo Wing]

Cathay is so short on pilots, they even offer unpaid leave now.

Interesting interpretation STW. I interpret that FCN in that we have a dysfunctional and antiquated leave system and that our inept management completely dropped the ball when they released a wholly inadequate number leave slots during the initial leave bid and now, they’ve gone into crisis mode to address the leave imbalance, they alone, are completely responsible for.

However, you go right ahead and believe that management have this all under control and that nobody is leaving, whatever blows your hair back man.

[mr did]

Or everyone is approaching 900 hours. Why pay crews to sit at home when you can have them do it for free

[Sam Ting Wong]

I think it is all part of a cunning and insidious plot. By offering less and less money to new applicants, POS 18 to RA 55, plus unpaid leave for all, they want us to think there is no pilot shortage.

Then, when eventually all breaks down and nobody saw it coming, they will laugh last.

[Kitsune]

If guys on bases in EASA territories are not getting their leave entitlement I suggest they report this to EASA, who will take immediate action...

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Guys on bases especially in Europe will not report it. They are too afraid Cathay will just shut the base like they did in Paris Manchester etc

[Flex88]

I think it is all part of a cunning and insidious plot. By offering less and less money to new applicants, POS 18 to RA 55, plus unpaid leave for all, they want us to think there is no pilot shortage.

Then, when eventually all breaks down and nobody saw it coming, they will laugh last.

What, you mean that plot that started in 1994 !!! Anybody that didn't see it coming had their FU**ING eyes wide shut just like winner STW does today. By the time he finishes he'll be living offshore in Davao on POS 25 still trying to save up for that 850 sq/ft North facing public flat for his wife and child...

#AOA is 100% useless

CX is toast..

#CXit

[Slasher1]

Guys on bases especially in Europe will not report it. They are too afraid Cathay will just shut the base like they did in Paris Manchester etc

Can’t speak for Europe but this is completely false with regard to NAM — who fairly actively use the laws to achieve a decent contract and are willing to enforce it.

The decision to close—or expand for that matter— the bases or not really has nothing to do with this. For now they are tokens of sorts and a kind of contingency plan. Designed to retain enough people in HKG with the illusion of being able to go elsewhere while their replacements are spun up. And an ‘out’ in case staffing the airline from HKG doesn’t work. They will attempt to attract enough people on POS 18 to staff the the airline from there and if it works close the bases in time.

Right now they are experimenting to find the feasibility of staffing the airline on POS 18 from HKG and how to juggle assets to make that happen. While opening up enough token slots to retain folks. It may or may not work and that is what will decide the future of Basing’s.

[Pickuptruck]

Pickup...I take it you are on 55 ? :rolleyes: As for your "there ain't that many leaving" comment, I guess that's the reason i'm on overtime every month, I keep getting called out as relief when on reserve, and my emails to and from colleagues that have all left in the past 24 months or so are just a figment of my imagination. And yes, as Cxerocst says above, what unpaid leave/seats/fleets??
Aside from the obvious that every RA55 guy apart from a handful are begging/abusing the company about going RA65, and the fact that the seniority list shows a painfully small number leaving.......Are you suggesting the company is making up fake names to put on the seniority list to reduce the apparent turnover?
I do wonder if abusing the crap out of the company on social media will pay dividends when the first extension interview rolls around and there are say 30 RA55 guys going for 7 slots.
Own goal springs to mind.

[Flex88]

I do wonder if abusing the crap out of the company on social media will pay dividends when the first extension interview rolls around and there are say 30 RA55 guys going for 7 slots.
Own goal springs to mind.

Right, but it's ok for Flight Crew to continually bend over and let inept "leaders" abuse the crap out of us ??

#Delirious

#CXit.

[rhoshamboe]

Find an SO that's been here for about 2 years and ask them how many seniority numbers they've moved in that time. Last one I spoke to had moved up at a rate indicating about 5% attrition over 18 months.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Sure, i'll run that by the 6 Canadian FO's all joining Air Canada next week (787 in Vancouver or Toronto).....and the many more currently in the pipeline awaiting course dates.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Btw, 5% over 18 months....?, yet the time to upgrade is now starting to stretch out to between 5 and 6 years. You see the problem with your statement don't you?

[rhoshamboe]

Sorry. Meant to say 5% per annum. A fairly hefty rate for any airline. Would suggest that time to command blow out is due lack of training resources (until now) and the company shrinking the airline to avoid having to actually deal.

[mngmt mole]

With Dragon Air, HK Express and HK Airlines, believe me, CX is never going to grow again. I have it on good authority that indeed that is the plan going forward. Expand the lower cost companies, and basically keep CX static. There is no career left at CX. It's toast.

[Flex88]

With Dragon Air, HK Express and HK Airlines, believe me, CX is never going to grow again. I have it on good authority that indeed that is the plan going forward. Expand the lower cost companies, and basically keep CX static. There is no career left at CX. It's toast.

Exactly MM.
All those SO's or DEFO's joined within the last few years your history is already written ! Plus it's not hard to see the progression chart wrote large on the wall 6 > 8 years SO before upgrade then, FO HK Express etc etc....

Surprise,THIS is how CX leadership works !!

Enjoy ;-)

#CXit

[Farman Biplane]

CX progression stagnates, company offers a deal to integrate the 4 seniority lists to provide the only avenue for promotion in the junior ranks, conveniently this will be packaged with the RA65 for existing B scalers. A win/win/win perhaps?

[Pickuptruck]

CX progression stagnates, company offers a deal to integrate the 4 seniority lists to provide the only avenue for promotion in the junior ranks, conveniently this will be packaged with the RA65 for existing B scalers. A win/win/win perhaps?
Nope.

GMA has already state company policy regarding RA65, why we all keep bleating on about rumours of something different is beyond me.

Those who thought they’d outsmart the company, take the bpp cash and the extra J class FOC and then slot into COS08 are waking up to the fact it ain’t happening. No. Chance. In. Hell.

Back in 2008 the cry was “we’re Cathay pilots, how dare they let us leave at 55, they’ll be begging us to stay and on our terms”

How things have changed.

[mr did]

GMA has already state company policy regarding RA65

That would be the one they made up last month, ink still wet. Let's see if this version lasts until the next Swire posting cycle or if economic reality forces another change to that rule of law.

30 RA65s currently going per year for the next 3 to 4 and an increase after that. RA55 increasing as of now with estimates of 4 to 500 on that list over the next 10 years, peak in 2 years from now with the bulge of captains in their early 50s. No chance in hell? Parked aircraft affect short term bonuses.

[RAT Management]

Did you hear the people volunteering to be forced into training were automatically given top cover courtesy of the company plus instant cos 08 RA65 benefits.

[MENELAUS]

Did you hear the people volunteering to be forced into training were automatically given top cover courtesy of the company plus instant cos 08 RA65 benefits.

All true. And a masterful stroke too...sadly. Frankly surprised they didn’t offer it sooner.
Equally if the AOA fails to negotiate the insurance top up with whatever insurer they can find at next years’ renewal ( looking increasingly dodgy it has to be said ) watch membership decline. Rapidly.

[MENELAUS]

What’s discriminatory about it. ? It could be construed as a benefit in kind. In much the same way that current trainers get preferential leave, or the test pilots essentially write their own rosters and equally have more leave and have it when they want it.
Note that I am neither condoning it nor benefiting from it.

[RAT Management]

Pretty sure giving RA65 to a very select group of employees would be seen as discriminatory in a Court of Law in this day in age. In CX's own words;

Move Beyond...Age.
Unless I misread it. Perhaps they meant;
Move Beyond...Age...but only for TB Breakers!

Precedent would be the key. Have new Trainers always been given preferential Retirement Age treatment?

I vaguely see your point with the TopCover. Still not right though, just further divide and conquer tactics. Although, in my mind, still straying very close into the discrimination realm.
Who is going to challenge this legally? You would run out of money and need retirement age 75 by the time the case is finished!

The extended retirement age for trainers precedence had been set before. Any challenge won't stand up. It's a seperate contact open to you as well if you want to jump in.

[Pickuptruck]

Yeah, no thanks. I'll wait until the Union sanctioned TB ban voted in by thousands of my colleagues is officially over.
I've got morals and I respect my co-workers.
You’ll be waiting a very very very long time. RF and his lackeys set it up so it can’t be voted out.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Well we all know who they are. They will have some lonely layovers and a lonely retirement as well. They made their choice

[Pickuptruck]

G

Well, so be it. I've managed this long without having 'Training Captain' on my business card. And my morals and integrity remain intact. And I can look myself in the mirror as I did not throw my colleagues and friends under the bus for my own personal gain.
but on the other hand those of us on the 744 endure the worst of the CC/TB while those on the 777 get down route disruption and roster uncertainty once in a blue moon. Not to mention years of trying to get off the 747 fleet as seniority should allow. Judging by the pitiful payrise and flood of new trainers looking at yourself in the mirror with a smile is all any of us will achieve under CC/TB.

As usual, one pilot group gets f*cked while another beat their chest about how hard they’ve got it. Any surprise those on the 777 were championing the cause.

Bravo.

[rtrd]

Well things can always get worse. Those that have been working for CX for more than a decade probably know what is coming:

1. Hong Kong, China and possibly entire world economy slowing and in recession by Q4 2019 or Q1 2020.
2. CX forward bookings crater and management begins to panic about looming losses.
3. Aircraft deliveries deferred and accelerated return of aircraft as leases expire.
4. This equals too many pilots and staff in general.
5. LWOP 2019/2020.

And how many of those 400/500 COS99 Pilots, many of whom are Captains, are going to "volunteer" for LWOP unless their retirement age is extended to 65 on full benefits? Particularly as they watch the value of their PFunds and property sink with retirement looming in less than 10 years.

[Pickuptruck]

Well things can always get worse. Those that have been working for CX for more than a decade probably know what is coming:

1. Hong Kong, China and possibly entire world economy slowing and in recession by Q4 2019 or Q1 2020.
2. CX forward bookings crater and management begins to panic about looming losses.
3. Aircraft deliveries deferred and accelerated return of aircraft as leases expire.
4. This equals too many pilots and staff in general.
5. LWOP 2019/2020.

And how many of those 400/500 COS99 Pilots, many of whom are Captains, are going to "volunteer" for LWOP unless their retirement age is extended to 65 on full benefits? Particularly as they watch the value of their PFunds and property sink with retirement looming in less than 10 years.
If the industry is is the dumps there will be nowhere else to go when you hit 55. They’re already fighting over a few slots on COS18. Hundreds will be looking just to hold their seniority and got to 65 on COS18.
Pretend that’s not the case if you like.

[Dilbert68]

Only in CX would you have a bunch of guys fighting over a vastly inferior contract just to hang around the place. You are all pathetic losers. How do you look yourselves in the mirror you spineless cowards?

Get a life.

[Air Profit]

Dilbert, I hope you feel better now that you've had the opportunity to vent. Take the rest of the day off....

[Max Reheat]

Dan,

"Pretty sure giving RA65 to a very select group of employees would be seen as discriminatory in a Court of Law in this day in age."

RA 65 wasn't 'given' to anybody! We were all offered it and some, shortsightedly, chose not to take it. Case closed.

[Flying Clog]

'Shortsighted' my arse! Who the hell in their right mind would want to stay in this cesspit any longer than necessary? If you can plan to leave by 55, well done, but that's already WAY too long to work for these slave drivers. No thanks. I'll be gone well before 55.