What're my chances?

[silicon chip]

I’m seriously considering a career change out of electronic engineering. I guess the chances of getting sponsorship are pretty close to nil bearing in mind the current situation and also my age – 39.

If I put myself through the training I need to be pretty confident of getting a job since I have a wife, 2 kids & a cat to support. I’ve canvassed opinion from some of the flight schools and they seem mildly optimistic. I assume they would since they’d like to take a huge amount of cash from me. However, I hear that there may be a shortage of pilots in the next few years. I also hear that BA maybe starting off their cadet program again in 2003. If I quit work and start to train it’ll be in early 2003 and hopefully getting a fATPL around spring 2004.

I have three questions I’d like to get some feedback on:

1. Does anyone have any ideas on when the job situation is likely to pick up?
2. When it does pick up are their going to be airline opportunities for zero hour fATPL pilots?
3. How are the airlines going to react to a 40-year-old applicant?

I really want to do this but of course I don’t have time on my side.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

[The Boy Lard]

Hi Dave,

Youre not alone when it comes to the age stakes, I'm 36 and just about to finish ground school. I must say though I am without any kind of ties like a wife, kids and said cat!

Youre quite right about being too old for sponsorship (I think) but am quite happy to stand corrected if anyone can show otherwise, but certainly for BA I believe the cutoff is 27.

In terms of question 1, no-one really knows, although Scoggs and Wee Weasley are in a better position than most to give an opinion. Personally I think an awful lot rests on what Dubya and Smilin Tone decide to do in the Gulf!

When the industry picks up it tends to pick up for us low hour types last (we're the bottom feeders) as we (generally) have to wait for someone to move from a turbo-prop upwards to make the vacancy for us, although as I said this is a generalisation.

In terms of airlines reactions to your age it very much depends on the airlines themselves. I know of at least two in the UK who would prefer a more mature face than a (dont shoot!) a slightly "less mature" face sitting at the pointy end.

At the end of the day you have done the right thing by canvassing advice here, its a mine of useful information, just carefully consider your options, maybe do the ground school by distance learning rather than a full time course etc...

Whatever you decide good luck and all the best

TBL:D

[Flysundone]

Silicon Chip

I have just got my first airline job and I am in my late forties. It took me over two years after getting my fATPL. I did however, have over a thousand hours, MCC etc.

It might be worth considering keeping your job and doing a modular CPL/IR followed by a FI Rating to help you build your hours. I estimate it would cost you around 30k plus you would still be earning a living. I too am a family man with a mortgage etc.

With regard to future job prospects, if the latest projected growth in air travel and the need for additional airport capacity is to be believed then you may well get a job in a couple of years. No guarantees though.

[RVR800]

Silicon Chip

Balpa reported that over 1100 type rated airline pilots positions were lost after Sept 11th in the UK and at that time many people had been unsuccessful in their seach for a position. One would have to add in the many jobs lost in Europe onto this figure.
Things have improved a little since then but there are many still many out of work. I met many on a recent seminar who all fell into this position.

Unfortuntely the JAA ratings now allow pilots from all
over the EU to occupy positions formally only available to
UK pilots ; the cost time and difficulty levels have also increased
and as a flying instructor you would be paid the national minimum wage. £10 per hour - There is little demand at the moment

Things have improved since September 11th but with the US stockpiling oil and planning a war and the fact that the stock market is in turmoil I would act carefully.

The chances of getting into an airline diminish as one gets older
however I know of one getting his first position at 53. This is rare.
He had circa 5000 hrs - years of toil at the bottom of the food chain.

At the end of the day its time and money - you nead to commit a lot of both in this game to be successful and many run out of one or both at all stages ......

Just adding a note of caution..

[foghorn]

RVR! You've been fairly quiet recently - good to see you back.

[Backontrack]

Silicon Chip

I thin kthe answer to your question is do it, if you've toiled over canvassing the opinions of those in this forum then you feel strongly about the change of career.

I am doing the same at 33 yrs old, I am just approaching the end of my PPL and I am looking to resign at the end of the month. I have a substantial mortgage, however, no kids. I have a really supportive partner and she is going to travel with me wherever I need to be to do the modular training. I'm off to South Africa in October o hour build then straight onto the full time ATPL course. I know if I don't do it I will regret never having tried, even though a substantial element of the cost is being funded from a remortgage.

If you are unhappy in what you are doing then plan it well and go and do it. If you are like me then you will be prepared to do any job to pay the mortgage and support your family until you hunt down your first break.

Good luck.

[Hap Hazard]

Silicon chip,
1/ If you are getting a steady good income, hold onto it if you dependants, I was 36 when I got my RHS job, but that was when things were considerably better and I did not have a wife and kid to feed then.
Age is not always a stumbling block, however I did notice that many of the younger trainees that I trained with were getting a lot more interviews than me, I only got one and passed the sim ride, tests etc.
What about your kids age as even if you do land a job you are going to be moved around a lot in this industry, I am looking at my third move in as many years.
2/Sorry to shed doom and gloom, but I personally dont think things will pick up for a while, the last recession lasted around 5 yrs before it recoverd and the last boom lasted about 4 yrs.
Low cost is doing well so it seems, but other parts of the industry are not so well off, so its an employers market, not what you want to hear I know, but it is very easy for some single bloke to say go for it, your family are at the end of the day the most important thing in your life.
Great if you can get a seamless transistion into the RHS.
If you are really determined to go for it at all costs, beware it could lead you to a family situation you never dreamed of, they will need to be very understanding.
If you are going to do it, then plan VERY carefully and buget at least 25% over the published course prices.
Also be prepared that not all jobs are high paying, I started out on 18k and am still on less that 30k flying a jet.
Please before you wannabes jump on my back, about money, I know its not everything, but you do need a return on your investment once you are mortaged/in debit upto your eyeballs.
If you have a spare 50-100k to do as you please, then go for it.
If you dont then think long and hard.
You see the problem with this industry there is too many of us out there who are motivated enough to go and train ourselves up at our own cost and its a matter of supply and demand.
I am not saying you should not follow your dream, but if you do you have to be pretty selfish regarding your family, but equally if it all works out then can be pretty rewarding but its not like your normal 9-5.
Last bit of advice talk to many people as possible and weigh up all the views, especially those who have been in the industry for a long time (I aint one).....it may not be what you dream it to be?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hap Hazard - with a few more paragraph breaks I would nominate that for posting of the month. ;)

Lot of good advice here.

WWW

[Sheep Guts]

Chipy mate, I would go for it, as long as your family and little kitty supports you. You seem to have a great back up proffession, unlike alot of pilots. I would as Hap Hazard suggests talk to a few guys, and get their view, but dont get put off by the generic "Captain Sour Grapes" as he will tell your an idiot, because he thinks he made the wrong decision many years ago, get my drift.

When it gets down to it, if you really want to do it, JUST DO IT!

Good Luck in all your endeavours. By the way, I m still chasing Jet slot like most , but I havent managed to catch that final wave in either.


Regards
Sheep

[MJR]

Get a class one medical before you do anything else.

cheers


MJR

[scroggs]

There's a lot of good advice here. However, I have to say that probably the least helpful is 'just do it'. It tends to be said by those who'd like a little morale boost in their own campaign, and often ignores the very real big issues influencing the original poster.

Silicon, there are no absolute answers to any of your questions. The most fundamental has to be what are the prospects for the industry over the next five years, which would cover your trainiing and your potential induction into professional flying. If prospects are bad, there may be little point in risking all; if they're good, the gamble may be worth it.

Notwithstanding the current wobbles in the stockmarket, anf the warmongering from the USA, I think prospects now are not too bad. We aren't going to see a return to the voracious employment market of 1998-2001, as the general economy won't support it, but aviation is returning to its historic path of growth. That's the good news. The bad news is that the current atmosphere is one of austerity and cost-minimising, so there aren't going to be lots of sponsorships and big starting wages on the table while there are lots of qualified and wannabe pilots looking for work - and there are. The so-called retirement bulge will open up the market slightly, but I have my doubts that BA will look to replace most of their retiring Captains with Cadets. I feel they'll be looking to poach from other airlines - which means that everyone shuffles up the ladder, but may mean that the CEP scheme remains on the back-burner. There will, however, be some improvement in prospects for low-hour pilots, particularly with the low-cost airlines.

As for the 40-year-old applicant, your chances really depend on how you come over at interview! You can still offer up to 20 years service, so you're a worthwhile prospect. As others have said, many older than you have made it!

The most important thing is that you square this with your family. You must fully advise them of the risks of failure, and you need an 'exit strategy'. That is, a point beyond which you won't go without a good chance of a job in aviation, and where you still have a reasonable chance of returning to your previous career. What that exact point is will depend on your discussions with your wife, and of course your knowledge of your current field. You're about to walk out on the tightrope, and your family is a fundamental part of your safety net. You need them 100% with you, and in full posession of the facts.

I wish you the best of luck!

[Desk-pilot]

Dave,

I am in a similar position to you - 33 with a 40 yr old wife who would like to have a kid. Currently both of us have good jobs but after 18 months soul-searching I decided to leave my job now as if I go now I can get severance. The trouble is, since I started that process the Iraq situation has blown up but I have pressed on regardless. I will leave at the end September, take 3-4 months out during which time I will try and grow the freelance writing sideline I have developed and monitor the situation in Iraq very carefully. If things look to be recovering then I will choose whether to stick with writing or go flying. Either way, it pays to have a back-up plan

I currently work for an airline and have investigated the situation internally. The basic deal is that barring any further airline impacting crisis then recruitment would likely restart in the first half of 2003. If there's a conflict in Iraq etc nobody knows what the impact on the airlines will be - even the airlines themselves.

I don't think age is much of a barrier at this stage and at the end of the day I concluded that I am not happy with my current job/lifestyle and flying or writing are both better options than staying where I am for the next 20-30 yrs! If you feel the same don't waste your life.

Nobody wants to be an old man who has to face the fact he never tried to make his life what he wanted.

Desk-pilot

[Sheep Guts]

Id like to correct my over exuberent previous reply. When I ment "Just do it" , it was as identified by CPT. Scroggs from a motivational standing only. I didnt mean to imply disregard anyone or anything and go fo it. Research as much as you can Silicon Chip.
One query , I have though does the BA cadet scheme have a age cap, I know the Qantas scheme was 24. May be worth checking.

Best of Luck Mate!

Regards
Sheep

[silicon chip]

Thanks to all who replied to my post. It's certainly helped with the question of age , cost timing etc.

Good to hear a good range of answers.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of jobs you got before landing the airline job - although this isn't the kind of thing you do for the cash you do need a return on the investment.

Dave

[Flypuppy]

Silicon,

Be very wary of any optomistic viewpoints from FTO's. The pilot shortage has been forecast since the Wright Brothers first took to the skies and has yet to materialise....

I am in a similar situation to you, wife, child and mortgage (no cat though) and completed a CPL earlier this year. I had the added complication that my family were in another country while I was in the UK following the training. You must be absolutely certain that this is the path you want to follow. You must also get the Class1 Medical out of the way before you do anything else.

You must explain your significant other the impact that the training will have on your family life. The stress you will face is difficult to explain until you have experienced it for yourself.
You will be spending previously unimaginable amounts of money (5 quid a minute if you are flying a twin for example) on something that is effectively a huge gamble.

The Modular Route is probably the most cost effective and flexible route to take at the moment. It allows you to pause the training at a suitable stage should world and/or economic factors mitigate against the aviation industry.

Hap Hazard has it about right as far as budgeting for costs. Add at least 25% to what ever you think it will cost. There will always be at least one of the sodding ground exams that will trip you up. The weather will extend your flying training.

If your wife works then that may help to pay the standard bills such as mortgage, food, gas/electricity/water, clothes for the kids etc etc. Dont forget to factor all these things into the finacial equation. With the skills and experience you currently have contact some, no contact lots of agencies that can find you contract work in the electronics industry (this website (http://www.agencycentral.co.uk/agencysearch/electronics/agencysearch.htm) is probably a good starting point). Explain what you plan to do and what you will be looking for once you reach the end of your training. They may be able to find you something more aviation related which may lead to other things. I stopped my training at the CPL level and now work in the IT department for a well known cargo airline on contract.

What ever you do, consider this move very carefully. There are no guarantees of employment as pilot at the end of the training, but equally, if you want to be a pilot you can't be one without the licences. Feel free to drop me a line if you have any further questions.

[Future Pundit]

I have a PPL and am about to pursue the modular route through OAT. I have a wife, 2 children under 3 and a mortgage to pay, so Silicon Chip I fully understand your position because I am exactly the same position. I am also an electronic engineer.

I have found a solution that allows me time with family, study time for the theory, pay for the exams, and a way to pay the mortgage.

Work as an electronic engineer in the oil industry gives substantial time off for a reasonable salary. It does not suit everybody, and you need an understanding wife. The system I will work is 1 month on, 1 month off for £25,000. The oil/energy industry always wants people so it is worth a look.

If you are interested reply on this thread and I will add more details.

If it were not for the oil industry could not even start.:)

[Future Pundit]

I almost forgot, I have inherited a cat, does anybody out there want it?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

FP

Where abouts are you in the UK and does it look like one of those trendy silvery grey ones like on the Bacardi advert?

If so I'll take it :)