Atlantic Barons

[srjumbo747]

Dear All
I enjoy PPRUNE and try not to comment but am intrigued by various views from former and current pilots, and of course spotters.
Thought I’d start a thread dedicated to the old chaps who used to fly and were in need of a good dose of CRM.
I’ve been long haul for many years and have been lucky enough to occupy the left seat for many years too (right place, time, luck)!
Chatting to new FO’s it seems that things have changed slightly since I started years ago. Some of the old Captains, I’m one of them now although don’t feel it, would address the cabin crew through the FO. Some wanted to be called Captain, some spoke about ‘their’ crew, ‘their’ First Officer and ‘their’ flight deck, “Don’t call me mate”, “I only want a china cup”, “as you’re on the jump seat please don’t interfere”!
Why did they make it so difficult not just for others but for themselves.
Hope this will be an entertaining thread and hope that some of us learn how not to be!!
Happy flighting.

[bafanguy]

You’re on the verge of opening a can of worms ! :ooh: I hope it doesn’t deteriorate to people just vilifying their cohorts. People can be and are influenced by new inroads into training and human factors like CRM. This is certainly good but I maintain that humans are firmly immutable to a great extent.

I retired in the early 2000s having flown 35 years of airline stuff; I can think of examples from my career matching most of the issues you mentioned in your opening remarks ( or matching in spirit) but they were relatively few in number. I suspect the same percentages would be true today if such data could be produced. Some cultural differences outside my experience may skew the data a bit. I can only speak from my own US experience.

I began my airline flying with some WW2 era captains and a few from shortly thereafter. In the main, I was treated with respect (more than I deserved on an occasion or two :() if not kindly tolerance by the captains I worked with. They would listen to my input and even solicited it on occasion !! The ones who didn’t were comparatively few in number. I learned from every one of them.

I suspect my experience, if truth were told, isn’t all that different over all. Humans !!

[renfrew]

Eric Woods has some nice stories in his book Climb to and Maintain about the North Atlantic "Gods"
He thought that the Stratocruiser crews had an airline all of their own.
His first trip on one was after they had been relegated to West Africa.On arrival before leaving the flight deck he was startled when a stewardess appeared with a tray of champagne cocktails,apparently the wind down procedure.

[olster]

This is a potentially interesting topic. I also got my first job with late lamented Dan Air in the 70s. I flew with former wartime captains and the concept of CRM was not a twinkle in anyone’s eye. I think it is fair to say that the bad ones were really, really bad and the good ones were great and would have been in any era. While Dan Air did not have the perceived status of the national carrier the pilots were the same mix of military, Hamble, self improvers etc. However, as has been already said the vast majority were decent grounded people, yes we had lady pilots even then, who just got the job done as effectively as possible. Of course political correctness was also a twinkle etc and Dan even had an all female cabin crew policy which continued into the 80s. Smoking in the cockpit was common although very unpleasant and ‘banter’ was the Lingus Franca of the cockpit which would probably make the more sensitive types of the modern world shudder...

I came across the last era of the real Atlantic Barons when joining the woolly pullover airline in 1990 as a first officer. The retired 747 captains from BA were extending their careers; there were some real shockers in that group,but the vast majority were good guys.

[ExSp33db1rd]

North Atlantic Barons.

In the early days of BOAC, North America was the only location that then paid overseas allowances in local currency, i.e. US Dollars, because of course US hotel contracts didn't include meals. The hotel may have had an attached Coffee Shop or restaurant under separate mangement, but meals could not be charged to a room in the adjacent hotel, so crew had to be provided with cash. In other parts of the BOAC worldwide routes crews were usually accommodated under Full Board arrangements, and had to turn up for scheduled hotel meals, which were charged to their room, so BOAC reckoned that they didn't need extra cash and if one wanted to have local money to spend in the bar then that was the crew members' own responsibility to take with them, and remember that the UK than had restriction on the amount of cash could be taken out of the country. BOAC provided their own equivalent of Travellers Cheques for crew, known as BOAC Currency Coupons, which one bought on departure and which the overseas local staff would then exchange for local currency at a more favourable rate than the bank.

Consequently the NAB's ensured that they only flew to North America, where they could organise their daily eating habits and locations to also save sufficient dollars out of the then $10 daily meal allowance - yes, breakfast, lunch and dinner could be purchased for that vast sum - to either drink or bank, and were senior, and powerful, enough to ensure that, and were horrified when the Stratocruiser was assigned to West African routes, and had to impose their seniority on the roster system to ensure that they never found themselves in Kano, Lagos, or Accra ! This had come about because Nkrumah, then Dictator ( sorry, President ) of Nigeria, had insisted that BOAC used their then most prestigious aircraft, the Strat. on UK / Nigeria routes to maintain their then traffic rights.

I recall on one of my early trips to New York, the NAB I was flying with offered to show me where to get a full breakfast for $1.00, and of course the Tad's Steakhouse outlets offered a full steak dinner for $1.19. Plenty of chance to save the meagre allowance dollars for a few Budweisers, a facility denied those flying on the Eastern Routes to Australia for instance.

Not excusing them, but had I survived four years or so of being shot at every night, then I might also have displayed the sort of arrogance and superiority that some later displayed. Maybe ?

Although I was engaged as a pilot, I had to start my career initially as a navigator on the Strat. and one day, realising that the co-pilot had missed the Selcal chime, I tapped him on the shoulder with my ruler, and said "Selcal, Dave". The NAB swung around and said "We do NOT use Christian names on the flight deck, MR. XXXXXX !!!

On another occasion, the F/O, realising that our NAB was a stickler for flight deck cleanliness, ensured that the flight deck was as clean and tidy as could be expected, but when the Captain arrived he asked the F/O if the flight deck was in fact clean enough to his satisfaction ? When the F/O answered in the affirmative, he pointed out that there was a toffee wrapper under the F/O' seat. When the F/O slid his seat back to retrieve it, the Capt. said NO, you're not a cleaner, ring for the steward. The F/O had to leave the flight deck to allow the Ch.Steward to get in and remove the offending paper !

On the other side of the coin the NAB's were by and large superb handling pilots. Some had difficulty with the the more complicated NDB let downs to an ILS approach, being somewhat alien to them after wartime procedures, but pop out of cloud not lined up, too high, too fast, not correctly configured, and say " The runway's over there, Sir" ( never forgetting the Sir !) and they would straighten up and fly a magnificent handheld approach to a manual landing. Ask some of our current pilots more used to playing Space Invaders than handling an aircraft, to do that ? Just sayin'.

I'm glad I had the opportunity to fly with the breed, and learned a lot about flying from them, albeit at the expense of some exposure to uneccessary pomposity and arrogance, from some of them.

[ironbutt57]

this happens when people take their name and company assigned title too seriously, take the job and responsibility seriously, yes, but not yourself so much..you'll find life much easier

[Centaurus]

this happens when people take their name and company assigned title too seriously, take the job and responsibility seriously, yes, but not yourself so much..you'll find life much easier



I spent 18 years as a pilot in the Royal Australian Air Force. Started as a Sergeant Pilot in 1952 and finished as a two and a half ringer with much of that time as a QFI. Often that time included dual instruction on various Commanding Officers and even the occasional Group Captain. I was mortified to have to fail my own CO during an instrument rating test in a Lincoln. All he said to me was "OK - so I need more dual." This from a former Beaufighter pilot who was shot down while strafing Japanese Zero floatplanes in Timor and spent the rest of the war as a PoW of the Japanese.

Never during all that time, did I strike any personality problems with crew members of senior military rank to myself. We didn't use titles such as "Captain" or "Commander". We were addressed as a position in the crew. The captain was called "Skipper" - be he a Sergeant or Group Captain. If the copilot was a Group Captain, anyone in the crew would address him as "Copilot" as befit his crew position. Once he stepped down the ladder of the Lincoln on to the tarmac in his sweaty green flying suit with his parachute over his shoulder, only then he became a "Sir."

It wasn't until later years flying as a captain with an Australian airline and then with a British operator, I became aware of occasional examples of professional snobbishness where airline seniority number was the equivalent of social "class." I will always remember my first day in 1990 with what was then Paramount Airways based at Bristol Airport. I was given a warm and friendly welcome by the operations room staff when a great-coated four bar character strode through the room and with a booming Oxford accented voice said "Who shall I sack today?" There were nervous titters and rolling of eyes all around. Of course he was joking I am sure, but I later was told he was a real tartar as an aircraft captain. I can well believe that. Personally, I saw him as an over-blown class idiot.

[AmarokGTI]

“Be the kind of Captain you would want to fly with”

That’s the advice I was given when I changed seats and I’ve found it to be the most simple but effective way of doing things.


I have noticed a lot at my company that FO’s refer to “the Captain” but from Day 1 checked to line in the left seat go with “MY first officer”

Recent crew room conversation I heard:

FO: “Are you happy with (fuel figure)?”
CPT: “No I’m the Captain and I want to take (minutely different fuel figure) so that’s what we are doing”

Everyone hates that guy. So many better ways to achieve the same result.

[YorkshireTyke]

Upon promotion, having experienced some autocratic Captains, I said that I didn't have a knighthood, but if the crew found it difficult to call me by my christian name whilst on Duty, then I was "Captain", but off duty my name was XXXX

[sdac]

When I was promoted, a number of people told me "The ****** in the left hand seat is now you." So true.

[Bergerie1]

I said I don't mind what you call me, it's the tone of voice that matters.

[classic200]

I joined Big Airways as an F/E just at the end of the NABs reign, after a couple of years the Tristars were sent to Caledonian the charter arm of the company, on a trip one day the cabin crew came in to ask us about lunch, the Captain ordered and said he wanted it on a china plate, no problem, she came back 10 mins later with the china plate on which was his lunch in its tin foil tray! Much tittering from the F/O and myself.
But as said earlier, most were very good handling pilots.:D

[hunterboy]

In my experience, the only people in BA that refer to “my crew” or “ their crew” are the CSD’s and CSM’s.

[vctenderness]

In my experience, the only people in BA that refer to “my crew” or “ their crew” are the CSD’s and CSM’s.

You need to get out more often then!

[Herod]

Years ago, I flew frequently with a senior CC member who had the rank structure right. The drill was to give a confirmation of pax numbers and doors closed, and I would reply with flight time and cruise level. It would go "xx passengers, doors closed, Captain" "Thank you, x hours/min, x,000'" "Thanks, Peter" To combine rank and Christian name in the one conversation somehow seemed normal.

[RoyHudd]

There are quite a few baronial idiots around outside of the world's questionably favourite airline. The breed continues to replicate, sadly, with new recruits often coming from the ranks of newly-promoted F/O's with overblown egos. I think a 10% level of people with inadequate abilities in the CRM area is fairly constant. (There are also a few nice folk with short-fuses, one or two unqualified "Trainers", and occasionally under-confident individuals), Happily the majority of folk in the left-seat are confident well-rounded people who show due respect to all they work with.

[Judd]

Australians are known for their assertiveness or Jack is as good as his Master approach. 737 crew on IMC descent to a Pacific island where limitation was not below 8000 until inside 20 DME of destination VOR.. At 20 DME further descent to 4000 is available prior to instrument approach.
Captain was a former 1942 US Navy World War Two veteran of the Guadalcanal campaign with a no nonsense uncompromising attitude to first officers. A classic one man band personality. The first officer was a quietly spoken Australian Vietnam war veteran who had been shot down in Vietnam and survived after ejecting .
The captain set 4000 into the MCP instead of the 8000 limit which was the MSA until 20 DME. Descent commenced from 35,000 towards destination VOR.

First Officer politely reminded the captain of the necessity of levelling at 8000 until inside 20 DME and went to reset the MCP to 8000. The captain bridled at this advice and rudely told the F/O to pull his head in. Approaching 8000 on descent, it was apparent the captain was intent on continuing below 8000 in IMC and still outside 20 DME. Reason for 20 DME limitation was high terrain en-route and on track. The F/O stated his objection to the limitation being ignored and in turn was again told to pull his head in. The F/O then unstrapped and grabbing the crash axe from its holder in the flight deck, raised it above the head of the captain and coldly stated "Your choice, Joe - 4000 or 8000 on the MCP..

Faced with this threat and calling upon his Threat and Error Management skills, the captain levelled the 737 at 8000 and neither said a word after that.
A good example of multi-crew cooperation backed up by an axe. You won't read about that in the manuals

[BEagle]

A reservist QFI chum on our UAS in the early '90s was ex-BOAC, ex-ba and had worked his way up from DC-7 F/O to Concorde captain. His tales of the early days were fascinating; apparently everyone used to stand up when the captain came down for breakfast at the crew hotel; he would then decide when to leave for the airport. In flight the Captain was certainly God, but my chum had never been on the receiving end of a Baron's nastiness. Although he was once hauled up before management for telling the cleaners to get off his aeroplane until he had left. He did have other brushes with management, who appeared to be his only foe! Our students loved flying with him (apart from the deafening levels of radio and intercom he set) - and the old rogue was an utter villain who would enjoy a bit of illicit dogfighting when the Boss or CFI weren't around!

There were some 'Baronial' types in the AAR world. One Sqn Ldr, ex-Victors, had co-pilots who might as well have been named Bader - because they had no operating legs! Whereas the rest of us would normally split the flight 50/50, so one pilot would do the take-off and first half of the flight and the other would do the second half and landing.

When 'crew co-ordination' was reinvented by the airlines and termed CRM, the late RFK once remarked "CRM? That's for poofs!". He didn't really mean it though.

I wonder what the Barons would have thought about the recent EasyJet TV documentary and the flight deck standards displayed by some of the pilots? Instant cardiac arrest, probably - but that documentary has certainly stiffened my resolve never to fly Orange again....

[dook]

….children of the magenta line.....and I mean children.

[vctenderness]

A notorious BOAC Captain know as ‘The Razor’ due to his surname required everyone to address him as Captain G*******sir. Never just Captain or just Sir.

On boarding the VC10 Cabin Crew we’re required to ring the flight deck and introduce themselves and what working position.
He was so ‘popular’ that he would not put his suitcase in the hold he took it on F/D with him.

Operating from Nairobi crew would purchase baskets of fruit, label them, and place in hold for collection at LHR his were usually run over by ground equipment and reduced to fruit salad!

He was taken to court for allegedly striking his dustman for not showing due deference. When asked by the magistrate what commission did he hold he replied none I am a BOAC Captain the magistrate said “right Mr G*********”

He would not normally mix with crew but as I once sat in a hotel bar he sent me a beer but would not join in drinking with me!

[YorkshireTyke]

Heard tell of one, when in the early days even Barons couldn't afford a car, and he travelled to the airport on the Reading "B" bus, as it was then, but didn't like travelling in uniform on the bus so placed a locker in the crew reporting office and changed before and after flight. One night, preparing for the evening Monarch, Stratocruiser flight to New York, he found that someone had stolen his uniform trousers !

He informed scheduling that the Monarch Service would be delayed that evening, as he had to catch the bus home and back to collect another pair of trousers. No problem Captain, replied scheduling, go home and we'll call the Standby Captain. No way, he said, tonight's Monarch is MY command, it'll have to wait. And it did ! I believe the next day's London Evening Standard had the headline - BOAC Captain delayed the Monarch passengers to collect his trousers.

Such was their "power". Imagine it happening these days !

[ExSp33db1rd]

A notorious BOAC Captain know as ‘The Razor’ due to his surname required everyone to address him as Captain G*******sir.

I knew him as Ron "the Blade" ( for the same reason ) . Once addressed as Captain xxxxxx, with a soft G, as was normal for that name, he barked "it's a hard G, for a hard man." but I recall hearing of an event, details forgotten now, when he stood up for his cabin crew who were being shafted by the local staff, and won the day on their behalf. No problem, he was reported as saying, "they were MY crew "

[Bergerie1]

As a young co-pilot, I use to enjoy making case studies of the captains I flew with. Despite what is sometimes said, most of the Atlantic Barons were perfectly OK and most were good pilots and good commanders. It was the exceptions who stood out and who gave the others a bad name.

In pursuit of my studies (!!), I once had the temerity to have a couple of beers with 'The Blade' and inquire why he demanded always to be called 'Sir'. Surprisingly, he didn't hit the roof but explained at great length how, in his view, standards of behaviour were slipping and he was determined to stop it. When I suggested his method seemed counterproductive he didn't see the point. But at least he didn't lose his temper with me.

On another occasion, when I was in the right hand seat, we were flying with an engineer with whom he had had a 'major disagreement'. He refused to speak to him even while in the air. He ran the flight by saying, "Mr, B (that's me), please ask Mr. D to give me 86%." Or, "Mr. B, please ask Mr D for the remaing fuel on board."

To give him his due, he was icely polite, but what a way to run a flight deck!!

[Phantom Driver]

Favourite reading material of the Atlantic Barons at 30 West ? The Telegraph of course .

[treadigraph]

Cryptic crossword? :)

[ExSp33db1rd]

Favourite reading material of the Atlantic Barons at 30 West ? The Telegraph of course .

No, the "Pink un" F.T. Stock Market prices !

[ExSp33db1rd]

There were moments of humour of course. Although we are not naming names, and rightly so, this tale can only be told by doing so, apologies to all concerned.

Capt Burt was known for his stentorian style of address, and was given the nickname Barker Burt. One day the stewardess came on to the flight deck with his coffee, and said " Here is your coffee, Captain Barker." at which he swung around and replied " My name's not Barker, it's Burt."

"Oh ! my name's Jane, pleased to meet you Bert" said the girl, as she held out her hand.

I'll draw a line over subsequent remarks !

[Bergerie1]

YorkshireTyke,

Aaah, the trouser story! As I heard it, the captain in question was Captain B Prxxxx who very much liked a smart appearance, wearing immaculately pressed trousers, he kept said trousers in his locker in 221. (221 was the reporting point in one of those prefab buildings on the North Side of London Airport, as it was known then).

Another captain, a large genial man (let's call him Captain Jxxxx Jxxxxx) was fond of practical jokes and decided to hide the trousers in another locker. Of course, as expected, Captain B P hit the roof and refused to take the Monarch service until they were found. How long that took, I have no idea, but I do know the flight was delayed for some time.

Despite what has been said about the NABs, there were some lovely blokes amongst them, very good pilots and good commanders.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Another story, from the days of Piston engined throttle consoles, with power, mixture, pitch, carb heat, reverse etc. some 16 levers ? One of the NAB's asked the F/Eng. why he was wearing white gloves, some sort of affectation, maybe trying to upstage the NAB himself perhaps ? Well Sir, ( not forgetting the Sir ) replied the F/Eng. when we have an engine failure approaching V.1, and you order an abandoned take off, I want to know which fuc***g hands are mine !

Tho' we're talking of NAB's, many F/Eng's were themselves a legend. I recall suggesting to one of them on an early trip of mine, that maybe I should consider learning Italian, or Spanish on the West African routes with their Rome and Barclona slip patterns ? No lad, he replied, you only need to know one phrase in any language, WorldWide. " 2 beers please, my friend will pay " !! Served me well.

[Bergerie1]

And what about the F/E when in Rome and the ground power was not immediately available. The captain asked him to hurry it along. The F/E replied he could speak Italian and then lent out of the DV window (or it may have been the forward door) and yelled, "Dove le fu**ing ground power!"

Happy times!

[BEagle]

A clip from the old movie Out of the Clouds - James Robertson Justice as the Captain vs. Robert Beatty as the Ops Officer:https://youtu.be/3ZsvXloiOaU
A real Baronial speech!

[ExSp33db1rd]

I remember him well ! In the days before the scrambled egg hats, too.

Who's on the flight deck running the engine ? Ops. Officer ? The other guy was a Captain, too.

[vctenderness]

I’m sure James Robertson-Justice must have had a second job as a BOAC Captain as I am convinced I flew with him!

[ETOPS]

As a junior F/O on the 1-11 fleet I got to fly with a few former BOAC colleagues - the system in those days was a longhaul co-pilot had to take shorthaul as a first command.
It was fascinating how a couple of chaps had become imbued with the BOAC style even though they weren't much older than me whereas others (from the same fleet) were just great guys who I tried to emulate.

I think the NAB command style relates in some way to the sea captains of old who were treated as god onboard and had the crew trembling in their boots!

PS If I ever get round to writing my book I've got some cracking tales about about the likes of "Ron with a hard G" and his ilk.
PPS Definitely flown with James Robertson Justice more than once :eek:

[parabellum]

I knew him as Ron "the Blade" ( for the same reason ) . Once addressed as Captain xxxxxx, with a soft G, as was normal for that name, he barked "it's a hard G, for a hard man." but I recall hearing of an event, details forgotten now, when he stood up for his cabin crew who were being shafted by the local staff, and won the day on their behalf. No problem, he was reported as saying, "they were MY crew "

Met 'Capt. G******' in the early seventies at a crew hotel in the Middle East, . I was billeted in the hotel for nine months awaiting company accommodation. Often socialised with the crew and found that most of the FOs, whilst acknowledging he could be a martinet at times, liked flying with him as he was most generous giving away flying to the co-pilots. Me not being BA found that he was often quite amused at his own reputation!

[ExSp33db1rd]

A psychiatrist died and was met at the Pearly Gates by St. Peter, who said - " I'm glad you've come, we're having a bit of trouble with God, he thinks he's a BOAC Captain."

[RetiredBA/BY]

Flew with G too many times.

After taxi out at Addis in. VC 10, , he would not allow me to taxi the jet although I was the handling pilot. I announced ”pre take off checks complete” . He retorted “ pre take off checks complete SIR” . I replied: thank you, I have control, He stared with daggers drawn.

After take off I rolled off the bank to 15 degrees as required by the Flying manual before retracting flaps.
He refused , stating flaps were to be retracted ONLY with wings level.

I then queried what other non standard procedures he required. No response, just a sullen silence.

Heard about this guy within 15 minutes of joining BOAC.

CRM ?

Sorry Captain G ( like one other would-b e training captain, I think he failed the check! I crossed swords with, M -B) you were a danger on the flight deck. I contrast his behaviour with so many of the wonderful ex WW 2 captains from whom I learned so much, one of whom, after an engine failure on take off told me “ just get on with it old boy”. Let me do everything as handling pilot, booked me hotac at LHR , a made a highly complimentary comment in my training file. Contrast Captain G !

That said, in the SEZ on a three day slip, he, G, managed to remain invisible for a full three days.

After nearly twenty years as a captain myself I have NO Time for this form of conduct in an aeroplane of any form.

[Mooncrest]

Not BOAC but a British airline. I heard a tale not long ago of a SFO who was up for his first command and whose conduct is reminiscent of these Atlantic Barons. His training captain was, by and large, satisfied with his protege but bluntly informed him he would not be signed off until he significantly improved his attitude towards other pilots, cabin crew, dispatchers, fuellers and so on. This story is less than ten years old. Makes me wonder where these pompous, ill-mannered prats come from.

[treadigraph]

Pompous ill-mannered prats seem to inhabit all walks of life - several of the architectural and engineering grads who joined our business over the years were incredibly self-regarding and needed a serious bringing down to earth; one in particular threatened to complain to his director about my refusal to organise changing the mugshot on his building pass to one that made him look cooler. Who sees it unless he is showing it round his friends? I replied "OK, let's go and see Geoff now, I'll enjoy watching him rip you a new ar$ehole for wasting the time of three senior members of staff".

Most of my contact with aviation people is through this site; in my experience those who have done the most are least inclined to boast and incredibly tolerant of the bumbling enthusiasts and neophytes like me.

[megan]

"The Story of TransAtlantic Flight", David BeatyThose hours over the Atlantic taught me a lot. Most of the ex-Imperial Airways Captains were characters, and sometimes they would reminisce over the good old days when the Master, particularly of a flying boat, really was a king. A guard of honour of station staff saw him on board. If things were not to his satisfaction, there was hell to pay. One flying-boat Captain had turned back to his point of departure because milk for his tea had not been put on board. I learned of presents, of jewels being given to aircrew who flew eastern potentates, of magnificent soirées in their honour, of the time the captain ate the special oysters put on board for Royalty visiting Australia, and of the compliment he paid the Catering Manager on this long-overdue improvement in the flying rations bumbling enthusiasts and neophytes like meHad you down as a Concord skipper treaders ;), you certainly know stuff that puts some of us to shame.

[treadigraph]

Yeah, taught to fly by Orville*... :}

For some reason I was just minded of the wonderful picture of the late "GB", Arthur Golding-Barratt, elder statesman of the Tiger Club, wandering into their hangar deep in conversation with somebody. John Blake had captioned it "they'll try to tell you I taught God to fly but its not true... I only checked him out"...

*the Duck