YAK52 Missing Southport

[RatsoreA]

https://www.9news.com.au/national/gold-coast-news-missing-plane-vintage-wreckage/a68304b6-cec0-4a02-821c-6de77479e2e1

Not good...

[markfelt]

Not another one.

Most will remember the last YAK accident off Stradbroke Island.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-09-03/casa-investigating-aviation-company-over-fatal/498448

[RatsoreA]

Yes, but there was SSOOO much more going on with the Barry Hempel crash than a simple crash...

[Cloudee]

Unlike the 2008 flight this one appears to be a private flight according to the news story.

[Sunfish]

Debris apparently spotted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-05/plane-missing-off-gold-coast-prompts-search-yak-52/11183322

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Any idea of the rego?

[marty1468]

Very sad all around. I'm hoping it's not VH-AQI

[FlexibleResponse]

ATSB
Investigation number:
AO-2019-027Collision with water involving a Yakovlev Aircraft Factories Yak-52, VH-PAE, near South Stradbroke Island, Queensland, on 5 June 2019https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2019/aair/ao-2019-027/

[SnowFella]

Apparently the main portion of the wreck has been found, along with the unfortunately deceased pilot.
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/two-people-missing-after-gold-coast-plane-vanishes-on-30minute-flight/news-story/81aaf070b46b9ccff9ab8a8325137524

[machtuk]

Oh that's just dreadful -:( flying is risky we each accept those risks -:(
such is life...RIP

[Cloudee]

The passenger’s body has been found.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-07/gold-coast-joy-flight-plane-crash-passenger-body-found/11192318

[sms777]

What is the,story with these YAKs.....they keep on crashing with no reason.

[roundsounds]

What is the,story with these YAKs.....they keep on crashing with no reason.
absolutely nothing wrong with Yaks.

[RatsoreA]

What is the,story with these YAKs.....they keep on crashing with no reason.

Nothing crashes for no reason... :rolleyes:

[sms777]

The last two have crashed with very experienced pilots at the controls.......just wondering...

[machtuk]

The last two have crashed with very experienced pilots at the controls.......just wondering...


i was was thinking the same thing? Hope they find out the reason or at least the probability.

[Square Bear]

The "Previous One" has a Coroners Court finding, which is available on line...https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/212517/cif-hempel-bi-lovell-ir-20131004.pdf

Don't see that the aircraft is to blame there..

The "Current One"....no idea, but for me, I'll wait for the report.

However both cases both tragic and sad.

[gileraguy]

Yes, but there was SSOOO much more going on with the Barry Hempel crash than a simple crash...

Guys, I've attempted to search online for the result of the medical negligence matter between the doctors and the "widow" but cannot seem to find a result... Does anyone know whether the matter went to trial?

[djpil]

The "Previous One" has a Coroners Court finding, which is available on line...https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/212517/cif-hempel-bi-lovell-ir-20131004.pdf

Don't see that the aircraft is to blame there...No-one thought to mention the possibility of FOD jamming the controls, for example, and instead seemed towards steering to this assumption: "The evidence at the inquest was that the plane was in good mechanical condition having just recently received a new engine and a new propeller."

[stressmerchant]

No-one thought to mention the possibility of FOD jamming the controls, for example, and instead seemed towards steering to this assumption: "The evidence at the inquest was that the plane was in good mechanical condition having just recently received a new engine and a new propeller."
Pg 14 suggests that they did consider FOD?

[currawong]

Current occurrence dual control?

[KRviator]

No-one thought to mention the possibility of FOD jamming the controls, for example, and instead seemed towards steering to this assumption: "The evidence at the inquest was that the plane was in good mechanical condition having just recently received a new engine and a new propeller."In this case the inquest was confined to the examination of the elevator trim, a propeller blade and a foreign object defence barrier (FOD) retrieved from the ocean. Mr Hempel and Mr Lovell were found in situ and their bodies were recovered by Queensland Police Service divers. I directed that an examination should be conducted of the FOD to determine if any object had fallen from pockets, such as cameras et cetera, could have penetrated the FOD and thereby interfered with the controls of the aircraft. This was done and the FOD was found to be intact.Seems to me it was looked at and excluded.

[djpil]

Seems to me it was looked at and excluded."In this case the inquest was confined to the examination of the elevator trim, a propeller blade and a foreign object defence barrier (FOD) retrieved from the ocean. .. I directed that an examination should be conducted of the FOD to determine if any object had fallen from pockets, such as cameras et cetera, could have penetrated the FOD and thereby interfered with the controls of the aircraft. This was done and the FOD was found to be intact." The FOD was examined .... specifically the foreign object defence barrier, fine as far as it went but a very limited assessment ... it certainly does not exclude FOD (foreign objects, in general, debris or damage) as the cause.

[RubberDogPoop]

"In this case the inquest was confined to the examination of the elevator trim, a propeller blade and a foreign object defence barrier (FOD) retrieved from the ocean. .. I directed that an examination should be conducted of the FOD to determine if any object had fallen from pockets, such as cameras et cetera, could have penetrated the FOD and thereby interfered with the controls of the aircraft. This was done and the FOD was found to be intact." The FOD was examined .... specifically the foreign object defence barrier, fine as far as it went but a very limited assessment ... it certainly does not exclude FOD (foreign objects, in general, debris or damage) as the cause.

Did they really mean that the "FOD' was intact, or that the "FOD barrier" (as required by AD) was "intact". It changes the meaning somewhat and is a perhaps understandable omission by non-expert investigator.

[Lead Balloon]

It is possible for perfectly serviceable aircraft in the hands of perfectly serviceable pilots to end up broken and dead. Think Tom Moon and Pip Borrman, among others.

[Squawk7700]

It is possible for perfectly serviceable aircraft in the hands of perfectly serviceable pilots to end up broken and dead. Think Tom Moon and Pip Borrman, among others.

Errr um, Pip’s aircraft was anything BUT serviceable!

[Lead Balloon]

Nonetheless, it is possible for perfectly serviceable aircraft in the hands of perfectly serviceable pilots to end up broken and dead.

Perfectly serviceable aircraft can still suffer failures. Perfectly serviceable does not mean guaranteed not to fail. Perfectly serviceable pilots can still make mistakes. Perfectly serviceable does not mean guaranteed not to make mistakes.

Care should be taken not to give the regulator (even more) justification to pursue the impossible regulatory fantasy.

[machtuk]

Proposing another possibility here. Healthy fit guy, confident takes young attractve girl for an aerobatic flight/adventure wth the CTA step 3000( allowing 500' clearance) in a high perf A/C that are known to bite if pushed hard enough under certain maneuvers especially at low Alt. Performs a stunt that goes wrong. Not enough height to recover, two dead, showboating perhaps?
I guess at the end of the day the authorities may never know the cause -:(

[Possum1]

Possibility is especially likely seeing he was witnessed doing the same sort of thing(2 X barrel rolls) five weeks before the accident on take-off out of Dunwich with female(blonde, attractive) as passenger.

[currawong]

I'll ask again.

Was the aircraft dual control?

[Squawk7700]

Possibility is especially likely seeing he was witnessed doing the same sort of thing(2 X barrel rolls) five weeks before the accident on take-off out of Dunwich with female(blonde, attractive) as passenger.

That annoys me very much to hear that! Thanks for posting.

[Cloudee]

I'll ask again.

Was the aircraft dual control?
If you click on the link from post #11 and watch the video you can see a rear seat passenger manipulating the controls So yes, it appears it did have dual controls. No idea if the pilot was an instructor.

[currawong]

Thanks, Cloudee.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

The last two have crashed with very experienced pilots at the controls.......just wondering...

Define “very experienced”. Hempel’s was widely known. What was #2’s background, aeros credentials, etc. Was he a qualified instructor? Serious question.

[sms777]

I was going by the words of the President of the Southport Flying Club saying he was "very experienced".

[Squawk7700]

If you’ve allegedly been doing barrel rolls on takeoff with a passenger, you’re not giving yourself much of a chance of long term survival.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
As most, but not all, who have flown them would agree, the Yak 52 is a delightful airplane to fly ---- for a "real pilot".
Its low speed handling is such that it can and will catch you out if you neglect its well known and published characteristics, it is in my NSHO, quite predictable, and I think it is an excellent basic trainer.
Given its aerobatic capabilities, this aircraft covers a spectrum of performance that is matched by few others --- I am hedging, because I can't think of even one.
However, given its characteristics, it will "sort the men from the boys" (if I can still use such a non-PC expression) , and if you are too close to Terra Firma it is going to hurt.
Always fly in the middle of the air, the bad things all happen at the edges.
Tootle pip!!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I was going by the words of the President of the Southport Flying Club saying he was "very experienced".

Well, he’s not likely to confirm there was a cowboy flying out of his exclusive little domain now, is he? (This is in no way alleging the deceased pilot was a cowboy, despite Squawk’s heresay.)

[Squawk7700]

Well, he’s not likely to confirm there was a cowboy flying out of his exclusive little domain now, is he? (This is in no way alleging the deceased pilot was a cowboy, despite Squawk’s heresay.)

Not my hearsay, I was re-quoting an earlier post.

[India Four Two]

This NZ Yak-52 crash was suspected to have been caused by FOD - a screwdriver was found out n the wreckage.

https://www.caa.govt.nz/public-and-media-info/caa-releases/fatal-yak-accident-2/

I have a few hours in a Yak-52 and I absolutely agree with LeadSled’s comments. A delight to fly but like all high performance aircraft, it can ‘bite’ the inexperienced or the foolhardy.

[Cloudee]

Not my hearsay, I was re-quoting an earlier post.
Isn’t that pretty much the definition of hearsay?

[Squawk7700]

Isn’t that pretty much the definition of hearsay?

You could say that, but my point was that I didn’t make it up. Next time I’ll quote the text.

[Cloudee]

You could say that, but my point was that I didn’t make it up. Next time I’ll quote the text.
Fair enough but I don’t think anyone said you made it up.
Hearsay: the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

[Sunfish]

If you’ve allegedly been doing barrel rolls on takeoff with a passenger, you’re not giving yourself much of a chance of long term survival.

‘Mr. Robson’s book even has a drawing of what you will see halfway through your last roll.

[clark y]

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/622557-german-pilot-killed-polish-air-show.html

Another accident, same type.

[Cloudee]

I was going by the words of the President of the Southport Flying Club saying he was "very experienced".
The accident pilot had a PPL for less than three years, got an aero rating less than 6 months before his last flight and had about 500 hours total time. Doesn’t fit my definition of ‘very experienced’.

Prelim report out:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2019/aair/ao-2019-027/

[djpil]

Possibility is especially likely seeing he was witnessed doing the same sort of thing(2 X barrel rolls) five weeks before the accident on take-off out of Dunwich with female(blonde, attractive) as passenger.Also observed doing a roll on downwind a few weeks prior. I wonder what sort of aerobatic endorsement he held - spinning and aerobatic endorsements 5 months prior indicates Aerobatics - 3,000 ft AGL?

[Cloudee]

Report out. https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5780773/ao-2019-027-final.pdf

Some of the speculation earlier in this thread proved correct I think.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

So 3 years to compile a report which says we don't know what happened. We found something that might have caused it, but we sent out a memo about that 2 years ago, so job done. Next!

Honestly, why do we bother with all this palaver for an accident that killed two people? Tragic that it is, if the same two people had died in a car accident on the way to the aerodrome before the flight because perhaps one of them was doing something that he probably should not have been doing, like perhaps speeding, but we can't confirm it, it would have made the news for a day and be long forgotten.

[tossbag]

Tragic that it is, if the same two people had died in a car accident on the way to the aerodrome before the flight because perhaps one of them was doing something that he probably should not have been doing, like perhaps speeding, but we can't confirm it, it would have made the news for a day and be long forgotten.

With respect, every death on the road is fully investigated. It may make the news for a 45 second bite but the investigation will be done and findings made. The difference, it won't take 3 years.

[B2N2]

‘pushing limits too fast and too soon’.
40hrs on type.
Case closed.
Next.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

With respect, every death on the road is fully investigated. It may make the news for a 45 second bite but the investigation will be done and findings made. The difference, it won't take 3 years.
I know the police do an investigation, which seems to be a prerequisite for the resulting coronial investigation, and that seems to be as far as it goes. Like you say, it doesn't take three years and try and reinvent the wheel.

[43Inches]

I know the police do an investigation, which seems to be a prerequisite for the resulting coronial investigation, and that seems to be as far as it goes. Like you say, it doesn't take three years and try and reinvent the wheel.

Sorry but a quick search of coronial inquests results in Victoria and the first one took 4 years to deliver being complicated, the next 5 between 2 years to 6 months depending on complexities. Quite simply, no one witnessed the crash, there was no hard evidence of causality only speculative evidence. In these cases the investigation will hold out for any chance of further evidence that could change the outcome and then release.

Comparing to road investigations is unfair. In most road collisions there will be lots of witnesses, cameras, skid marks and fairly straight forward analyses can be done fast and efficiently. With air incidents, especially this one there is lots of speculative evidence based on past habits, however no hard evidence of cause can be ascertained. You can only rule out what did not happen and then report on the most probable occurrence. The only hard evidence, the aircraft crashed at high speed, it was not survivable, the pilot was healthy enough to rule out incapacitation and RADAR plots were indicative of erratic flight path. The rest is speculative as to what was occurring and why. With such limited evidence, put the file on the shelf and wait for any chance of additional evidence such as a reluctant witness, some lucky video capture from the edge of frame, some go-pro or similar that washes up from the crash, etc etc....

[roundsounds]

Sorry but a quick search of coronial inquests results in Victoria and the first one took 4 years to deliver being complicated, the next 5 between 2 years to 6 months depending on complexities. Quite simply, no one witnessed the crash, there was no hard evidence of causality only speculative evidence. In these cases the investigation will hold out for any chance of further evidence that could change the outcome and then release.

Comparing to road investigations is unfair. In most road collisions there will be lots of witnesses, cameras, skid marks and fairly straight forward analyses can be done fast and efficiently. With air incidents, especially this one there is lots of speculative evidence based on past habits, however no hard evidence of cause can be ascertained. You can only rule out what did not happen and then report on the most probable occurrence. The only hard evidence, the aircraft crashed at high speed, it was not survivable, the pilot was healthy enough to rule out incapacitation and RADAR plots were indicative of erratic flight path. The rest is speculative as to what was occurring and why. With such limited evidence, put the file on the shelf and wait for any chance of additional evidence such as a reluctant witness, some lucky video capture from the edge of frame, some go-pro or similar that washes up from the crash, etc etc....
Here’s the Coroner’s report;

Report (https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/763403/cif-vanhattem-applebee-20230404.pdf)

[Squawk7700]

Here’s the Coroner’s report;

Report (https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/763403/cif-vanhattem-applebee-20230404.pdf)

I wonder if some changes are coming after what has been recommended in there…. It’s quite a read.

[Lead Balloon]

Interesting to read the (expensive) extent of CASA’s largely unsuccessful attempts to focus blame on a single individual and away from the systemic regulatory issues.

[43Inches]

Here’s the Coroner’s report;

Report (https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/763403/cif-vanhattem-applebee-20230404.pdf)

Almost 4 years and the finding;

193. The precise cause of the crash has not been ascertained. There is no evidence of any mechanical failure. Mr Van Hattem's lack of experience in this type of flying and his performance of aerobatic manoeuvres at heights well below 3000 feet above ground or sea level, may have contributed. The possibility that a loose or uncontained tool or other article on board the aircraft may have interfered with the flight controls and prevented Mr Van Hattem from recovering from an aerobatic manoeuvre is a feasible but not ascertainable explanation for why the aircraft impacted the water.

So as said above they knew most of what happened a few days/weeks in and then waited for any extra information to come to light, after time has passed and nothing comes of it, then publish what you do know.

That being said recommendations to CASA are many and noteworthy and hopefully have some follow through.

[VH-MLE]

This is another example of CASA acting in a reactive manner rather than a proactive one. I think trying to take Mr Field to the cleaners is both unfair & unwarranted, when the real issues lay within the nebulous CASA systems within which pilots have to navigate. Without wanting to speak badly of the deceased, it appears clear to me from the material presented at the coronial hearing, that Mr Van Hattem was a cowboy & unfortunately, has taken a young life with him...

[djpil]

Interesting to read the (expensive) extent of CASA’s largely unsuccessful attempts to focus blame on a single individual and away from the systemic regulatory issues.I wonder if Dr Stanton is CASA's subject matter expert for aerobatic training? I know that he has some experience at this and was highly regarded.

"132. Mr Awad, the former CEO of AWAL (from 2013 – 2021) gave evidence that his aerobatic endorsement in the USA took in the order of 10 hours. He undertook a series of training flights with a check pilot who was a very experienced aerobatic pilot with each flight being “roughly between one and 1.5 hours in duration”. He considered eight to ten hours to be “the basic”.
133. CASA’s Branch Manager of Sport and Recreation Aviation, Dr Anthony Stanton, gave evidence that he would expect a flight activity endorsement to take eight hours, and “on average 10 to 15 hours”. In his experience, the instruction should take place with a series of lessons. .....
134. Dr Stanton said that if a student seemed to have had some prior aerobatics training that would not justify a truncation or shortening of the instruction time. He added:
If he came to me, I would actually take longer ..."
Mr Awad could not have got an aerobatic endorsement in the USA because the FAA does not have such an endorsement. So, Dr Stanton would expect Mr Awad to undergo 10-15+ hours of training in Australia on top of his 10 hours in the USA to get a CASA aerobatic endorsement?

'Dr Stanton was specifically asked the following: Is it something that CASA can look into as to whether flying schools - have an adequate knowledge - if I can put it that way - of what they are meant to be doing in terms of (a) developing their syllabus and (b) ensuring that if the spin recovery methods are to be the methods prescribed in a pilot operating handbook or flight manual, that those are the methods only to be used? ---CASA recently did publish a spinning AC. I'm reasonably confident that that content is contained in that AC, but I certainly have a review of it to make sure it is, but I’d be surprised if that’s not in there." Not true, Dr Stanton, there is no AC on spinning and you have withdrawn CAAP 155-1, Aerobatics, with no sign of a replacement AC on aerobatics & spinning!

""210. ... CASA takes issue as to the terminology used (“flight training operators or organizations” and “flight instructors”), submitting that it is neither necessary nor appropriate to review flight instructor standards of performance and consequentially, the recommendation should not be accepted."
What about the requirement for spin and aerobatic instructors in CASA 62/20 — Conditions on Flight Crew Authorisations (Edition 3) Instrument 2020..

[VH-MLE]

A question that comes to mind to me is the Counsel Assisting the Coroner in this matter - Ian Harvey, was CASA's lawyer for coronial inquiries & other matters for some time, so is there a conflict of interest issue relevant here? I'm not sure how long ago he last represented CASA, but I'm wondering if CASA may have been let off the hook to some degree due to this previous relationship.