Dreadful Films: A Great Shame On Brave Men

[Old-Duffer]

I have recently obtained the films: "Lancaster Skies" and "303 Squadron" on DVD.

The subject matter is first a bomber crew coming to terms with losing their pilot and getting a former fighter pilot as replacement, whilst the second is loosely related to the Poles of 303 Sqn.

The CGI work is good but the acting and attention to detail is IMHO dire in the extreme. In one scene an officer is seen wearing the current pattern of RAF airman's SD hat and several shots show 'queens crowns' on other hats. In the first film, saluting without a hat, collar attached shirts, in the second the current style of NCO rank stripes and a shed load of other 'continuity' errors and lack of accuracy spoil what - in both cases - is serious subject matter.

The current Mrs Old Duffer (herself a 20 year veteran, in the mob) and I watched the first film for about 20 minutes and gave up and the second film didn't last much longer before removing to a safe distance!

A very disappointing outcome to serious subjects and much of it unnecessary had reasonable steps been taken by the makers.

Just my views of course!

Old Duffer - in grumpy mood!

[campbeex]

Perhaps writing to the respective producers of the films highlighting the inaccuracies and suggesting improvements would of more benefit to future productions rather than having a moan on an anonymous forum?

[India Four Two]

campbeex,

I disagree. OD has done me (and probably many other PPRuNers) a favour by reviewing these films, giving me a good reason to avoid wasting my time watching them.

[Fareastdriver]

--------and the original Dam Busters Film used Lincolns????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

The films mentioned by the OP are fiction; they can wear what they like. It's the same with contrails in cowboy pictures.

[campbeex]

campbeex,

I disagree. OD has done me (and probably many other PPRuNers) a favour by reviewing these films, giving me a good reason to avoid wasting my time watching them.

You disagree with providing constructive criticism?

I'm inclined to disagree with this thread appearing in the Military Aviation forum. Aviation History & Nostalgia or Jet Blast might be more appropriate.

[Old-Duffer]

Whilst FarEastDriver is correct that they are 'fiction', 303 is heavily biased towards the real 303 and the Polish contribution to the BofB. As to Lancaster Skies it makes the point of being based on real events, although I accept that can be subject to very wide interpretation. He is also right about contrails in cowboy films and there is the famous landrover in the film El Cid and I'm sure many others.

It's a great pity that the subjects have been so casually dealt with and whilst it is commented that this Thread uses my 'false' name, I'm happy to repeat the comments in any sort of open forum and can justify (the films will show the truth of my remarks) what I have written.

I won't write to the makers, my experience of correcting serious errors of fact has not been good!! I wrote to a commissioning editor for a book about Arnhem - of which I have some knowledge. The book refers to ranks such as 'Leading Air Commander' (LAC), 'Second Lieutenant' (S/L), 'Flight Officer' (F/O) {and neither the female or the USAAF rank} and is peppered with dreadful mistakes of fact. The Editor wasn't interested so I wrote a formal book review which was published but the book is still on sale!!!!

O-D

[Wensleydale]

I must say that attention to detail can lead one to doubt the accuracy of more important aspects of a story. I did not buy a book called "Lancaster Down" because the cover showed the gun turret of a Blenheim!

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/329x499/ld_c4b3d872ae78747215a6169fee9f5d1ff7a47891.jpg

[langleybaston]

Lancaster Skies was frankly grotesque.

[SPIT]

303 squadron was passable but Lancaster Skies was so much dross it was an INSULT to all Bomber Crews from WW2.

[Herod]

Ref 303 Sqn. I can't comment on the uniforms, since I didn't particularly notice. However, the CGI, and the mock-ups were faultless. Before criticising too much, take account of the fact it was a Polish film, made in Poland. I watched it on the one day it was screened locally. W have a very large proportion of Poles in this area, and a good 80% of the audience were Polish. They were happy with it, which is what counts.

[Asturias56]

Oddly, in watching movies for years, I've noticed that "attention to detail" isn't a priority - they're entertainment

And TBH did the wrong saluting convention affect the story ? And how many people would know - and of those how many would care.................

[Tankertrashnav]

The answer to that is - lots. And lots care, because it's such an easy thing to check and get right. However there is nothing new in this, set designers and costume suppliers etc have been getting things wrong for a long time. In The Longest Day (1962) for example, they obviously couldn't decide which way the diagonal stripes on the DFC and AFC on Richard Burton's uniform should go, so they compromised and had the DFC stripes running one way and the AFC the other. Sure, lots of people wouldn't notice, but an awful lot would, including yours truly

TTN

[Hipper]

I must say that attention to detail can lead one to doubt the accuracy of more important aspects of a story. I did not buy a book called "Lancaster Down" because the cover showed the gun turret of a Blenheim!

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/329x499/ld_c4b3d872ae78747215a6169fee9f5d1ff7a47891.jpg

'You can't tell a book by it's covers' is true!

I knew an author of war history and he told me he had little say on the cover art.

[Hipper]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3486080/reviews?ref_=tt_urv

This review seems fair. Basically the film had a budget of £80,000!

[Asturias56]

The answer to that is - lots. And lots care, because it's such an easy thing to check and get right. However there is nothing new in this, set designers and costume suppliers etc have been getting things wrong for a long time. In The Longest Day (1962) for example, they obviously couldn't decide which way the diagonal stripes on the DFC and AFC on Richard Burton's uniform should go, so they compromised and had the DFC stripes running one way and the AFC the other. Sure, lots of people wouldn't notice, but an awful lot would, including yours truly

TTN
Lots?? Are we talking 10's, 100's or thousands?? I think you mean lots of people who served in the armed forces (and even then I suspect many don't care at all) which isn't a very significant number any more

Compared to the number of bums on seats they need to make the movie pay??????

I'm sure it's important to a few but the Great British Public don't care at all

[longer ron]

As previously posted - it is just as easy to get most of the details correct as to get them wrong - all the film producer/writer/director had to do was engage with a couple of ex RAF guys - many would have checked the story for authentic details without charging any money LOL.
It is just sloppy writing/producing - I have seen it on many films (and not all of them aviation themed ! )

[Old-Duffer]

I agree with Longer Ron; it is as easy to get things right than not bother and get things wrong. Any group of 'enacters' would have helped. It also throws the rest of the film into doubt. If one notes simple errors, it leaves one wondering what more important things have been ignored in the production of the films. In Sci-Fi or blatant comedy, accuracy is probably not too important or irrelevant but in these two films, they were dealing serious issues - 'spoiling the ship for a h'path of tar'.

O-D

[orca]

Each to his own. There’s a big difference for me between a film with very minor errors and a bad film. (Which these still may be).

I wonder how many instances of this thing there are in real life? Even our older contributors probably weren’t there so who can say?

FWIW I’m well and truly in the ‘So what if some absolutely trivial details aren’t quite right?’ camp. If the actual events and in particular inividuals’ contributions are reasonable accurate.
In real life (like actual - like actually happened) I’ve seen medals in the wrong order, someone in someone else’s flying coverall post change out of goon bag, inappropriate (ISAF) medals worn, an officer mistakenly wearing a non commissioned hat, an officer saluting without a hat, I’ve even seen an officer salute the SWO (first). Squadron CO being out of rig...VSOs making up rigs because the real ones didn’t suit them,etc etc. Part of the WW2 mystique is the at times liberal interpretation of dress regs.

Anyway, well done spotters, award yourself an advanced spotting badge with bar.

Edit to add: Just remembered, a friend went on exchange and to blend in bought a local hat. His squadron kept it from him for the entire tour that he was wearing a female officers’ hat. I’m sure a film made about that unit would have an error in it somewhere!

[longer ron]

I might have agreed many years ago Orca but these days even 2 minutes on your PC/Device will bring up WW2 RAF Ranks etc and images of genuine RAF personnel - which is why I say it is as easy to get most details correct as it is to get them wrong - sloppy/lazy preparation and 'research' - a little keyboard time which would have added perhaps a few hours onto the schedule would not have cost a penny ;)
Another free technique would be to watch a couple of old films such as 'Appointment in London' or 'The way to the stars'.

[orca]

The petulant child in me is weighing up whether to spend my home bound commute looking for an instance of a WW2 Air Force chap being out of rig! Being an ex ‘finder of moving airfilelds’ I’ve got no idea what to look for...but given the relative youth of the RAF at the time, allied units in the orbat and wartime expansion I’d be amazed if a few minor rig transgressions weren’t recorded!

I might just dribble on my lapel like usual though.😉

Good weekends all.

[BEagle]

I watched The Longest Day on DVD again last night - an excellent film made some 57 :eek: years ago now...

'Flight' Officer Richard Burton with his incorrect medal ribbons joining a group of pilots at some bar, where some were wearing SD caps, jolted a little. Was this Darryl F Zanuck's idea of an Officers' Mess? But that didn't really detract from the excellence of the film. Which is far better in this original version, with the French speaking in French and the Germans speaking German, than any all-English TV version of the film.

[Pontius Navigator]

There are obvious cases where the film will grate with we experts but as orca said, he couldn't recognise light blue errors nor could we recognise dark blue or green ones.

There are other cases where we are absolutely certain that the film is wrong only to discover from contemporary sources that they were right all along. RAF headdress is a case in point - officers wearing berets with flying suits and forage caps with No 1s, or SD hats and DPMs. Another was Busy Jackets with shorts and long or short sleeves.

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Too many armchair critics around! The Lancaster Skies director (Callum Burn) is in his twenties and managed to scrape up a budget of just £80k for his debut movie. He is passionate about recognising and supporting the Bomber Command aircrews.

I agree that there may be a few mistakes with cap badges and saluting procedures, but who really cares. I defy anyone to make a better WW2 movie on such a tiny budget. He needs to be encouraged rather than criticised.

[langleybaston]

I think we were encouraging him to do a bit of basic research ..... anyone passionate about recognising and supporting Bomber Command aircrews needs to do the job properly. Like they did.

[Harley Quinn]

Too many armchair critics around! The Lancaster Skies director (Callum Burn) is in his twenties and managed to scrape up a budget of just £80k for his debut movie. He is passionate about recognising and supporting the Bomber Command aircrews.

I agree that there may be a few mistakes with cap badges and saluting procedures, but who really cares. I defy anyone to make a better WW2 movie on such a tiny budget. He needs to be encouraged rather than criticised.

It's art, it's a story, passionately told, on the most minute of budgets.
Open your eyes and see stories the maker was trying to tell.

[Harley Quinn]

Too many armchair critics around! The Lancaster Skies director (Callum Burn) is in his twenties and managed to scrape up a budget of just £80k for his debut movie. He is passionate about recognising and supporting the Bomber Command aircrews.

I agree that there may be a few mistakes with cap badges and saluting procedures, but who really cares. I defy anyone to make a better WW2 movie on such a tiny budget. He needs to be encouraged rather than criticised.

It's art, it's a story, passionately told, on the most minute of budgets.
Open your eyes and see stories the maker was trying to tell.

[orca]

Langley - Bomber Command did some extraordinarily brave, absolutely necessary, eminently justifiable and very skilful things - but your analogy/ comparison probably falls down on accuracy.

[Idle Reverse]

Funny how we tend to remember (and even look for ?) minor errors in otherwise entertaining films.
My personal “one to look for” in WWll era films is the presence of modern day “tram lines” in the cereal crops.
I guess you really need a farming background for it to be of noticeable significance (and probably be at least into your 60’s) but tram lines (the empty wheel marks for the tractor operator to follow every time he does tractor work in a cereal field) didn’t exist before the early 70’s. Before tram lines were brought into use you simply drove the tractor over the growing crop, as and when required. Now the same “un-cropped” tramlines are followed every time in the field . . . and so seeing tram lines continuously in the background / aerial shots in post 70’s films like Memphis Belle (with 1940’s binder cutter in a tram-lined wheat field behind the B-17 at Binbrook !) always brings a wry smile to my face.
And I’m smiling now as I think of you all thinking . . “tram lines in cereal fields? What is he going on about?”

[Tankertrashnav]

Another was Busy Jackets with shorts and long or short sleeves.

I do love your typos P-N. I'm trying to imagine what a busy jacket would be busy doing! Anyway, I seem to remember that in Singapore and HK we wore bush jackets with shorts and short sleeves in the daytime and long trousers and long sleeved jackets at night to help keep the mosquitoes off.

[Finningley Boy]

I do love your typos P-N. I'm trying to imagine what a busy jacket would be busy doing! Anyway, I seem to remember that in Singapore and HK we wore bush jackets with shorts and short sleeves in the daytime and long trousers and long sleeved jackets at night to help keep the mosquitoes off.

You still had Mosquitoes in service in your day Tankertrashnav?

FB

[Finningley Boy]

Funny how we tend to remember (and even look for ?) minor errors in otherwise entertaining films.
My personal “one to look for” in WWll era films is the presence of modern day “tram lines” in the cereal crops.
I guess you really need a farming background for it to be of noticeable significance (and probably be at least into your 60’s) but tram lines (the empty wheel marks for the tractor operator to follow every time he does tractor work in a cereal field) didn’t exist before the early 70’s. Before tram lines were brought into use you simply drove the tractor over the growing crop, as and when required. Now the same “un-cropped” tramlines are followed every time in the field . . . and so seeing tram lines continuously in the background / aerial shots in post 70’s films like Memphis Belle (with 1940’s binder cutter in a tram-lined wheat field behind the B-17 at Binbrook !) always brings a wry smile to my face.
And I’m smiling now as I think of you all thinking . . “tram lines in cereal fields? What is he going on about?”

Another not very noticeable continuity error is to be found in 'The Great Escape'. At the train station, when the train pulls in, it has the post-war DB marking on the side of the coaches instead of the Eagle and Swastika. DB initials for; Deutsche Bundesbahn of course!

FB

[Lancman]

I can't comment on uniforms and protocols for 1944 but I can comment on some of the howlers in the film regarding the handling of Lancasters. First I must state that my 750 hours on the Lanc were flown in the 1950's, after people stopped shooting at them.
Firstly, the Flight Engineer or Pilot didn't just stick a thumbs-up out of the window to request clearance from the ground-crew to start an engine, they indicated which engine by showing the requisite number of fingers.
Secondly, you would never start turning a heavily laden Lancaster as soon after take-off as they did in that film. You had to hold a steady course while you balanced acceleration against height gain as you retracted the undercarriage and got the flaps up and built up a climbing speed of 160 - 165 knots before reducing power from take-off to climb power. That took some time.
Thirdly, the German fighter tactics shown were those that they used against B17's in daylight and were quite unsuitable for night fighting.
I've just re-listened to a recording that my older brother made 25 years ago for a local school. He did a full tour as a Flight Engineer on Halifaxes and Lancasters with 432 Squadron RCAF at RAF Eastmoor and he describes a 700 aircraft attack on Karlsruhe in 1944 and makes the point that they didn't see another aircraft throughout the whole flight though they did run into severe slipstream turbulence over the target. The CGI views of a close formation of Lancs thundering through the dark skies over Germany was very impressive but totally wrong.

[dctyke]

I gave up on Star Wars after seeing lasers shooting in space ��

[charliegolf]

A Great Shame On Brave Men. I don't think so, but that's just an opinion. A lay person is much more likely to think, "Holy sh1t, they did that every night! How could they keep going?", than, "What crap, he'd never wear a hat like that!"

CG

[vimhawkraf]

I watched a film on Netflix recently called "Hurricane". It also deals with Polish 303 Squadron. Not a great film, and completely reliant on not the best CGI, but also a worthy subject for which many of it's problems can be excused. So absolutely not a "dreadful film", I only mention it because of 303, and recommended for people with an interest in the subject matter.

[vimhawkraf]

I was more noticing Richard Burton's acting. He seemed to be in a different film to everyone else!

[Blackfriar]

There is now so much knowledge in older peole who have retired or partially retired and through the wonders of the internet and social media can be easily contacted. Many of these people (such as PPUNErs) would willingly give free or low cost advice on a whole range of projects. Yet no-one cares enough to even ask. Journalists are awful, replete with degrees and Masters in Journalism, cannot spell, no-one seems to proof-read and they simply regurgitate press releases with no accurate comment or added information, much of which is found in the comments section. Here people who really understand the subject, chuck in their often incisive evaluation of the article. Why do we employ vacuous twenty-somethings rather than use the vast knowledge of an older generation?

[Tankertrashnav]

I was more noticing Richard Burton's acting. He seemed to be in a different film to everyone else!

I always thought Burton was a very mediocre actor who blagged his way through his career on the strength of his amazing voice. He could portray the whole gamut of emotions from annoyed to furious!

[thunderbird7]

How dare you besmirch the honour of Major John Smith aka Sturmmbahnfuhrer Johann Schmidt!! Possibly the most entertaining WW2 adventure film ever made!


After Zulu, of course, but I digress.

[ve3id]

"Bums in seats, mate, bums in seats", was what the producer said to A.J Chegwidden in the show 'JAG' when he complained about the technical errors in a film in which AJ was supposed to be technical adviser!

[Clockwork Mouse]

73 years ago, the British Labour government, under pressure from Stalin, did not invite the Polish Armed Forces, who fought with the Allies, to the Victory Parade in London. The parade took place on 8 June 1946 to celebrate the victory over Germany during World War II.

Polish soldiers were one of the largest national formations fighting against Germany. More than 200,000 members of the Polish Armed Forces in the West had fought under British High Command. None of them has been invited to the Parade. Finally, after many complains and protests of a number of MPs and figures in the RAF, 25 pilots from the Polish Fighter Squadrons in the Royal Air Force, who fought in the Battle of Britain, got an invitation.

These last-minute invitations were declined in protest against the omission of the other branches of the Polish forces. Their efforts had not been recognised.

British government apologised in 2005 and Polish veterans took part in a British Victory Parade for the first time, 60 years after the war had ended.

[tucumseh]

Clockwork Mouse

Indeed. At my home MoD workshop in the early 70s, we had numerous former Polish airmen and their sons. They were highly regarded and much loved. The city has a huge and sobering Polish war cemetery and we were each invited to any occasion. One chap had been within two weeks of qualifying as a doctor when his country was invaded. He became a pilot, survived unscathed but today he would be said to have PTSD. He gained employment at the workshop in 1946 and spent the rest of his career running the anodising plant. Visiting VSOs, mainly FOSNI, knew the score and always made a beeline for the plating shop.

[ShyTorque]

I still get irritated when the soundtrack of a turbine powered modern helicopter is that of a sixty year old, piston engined Bell 47. Similarly, when coming into the hover to land we hear the sound of an aircraft being shutdown from idle.

Muppets. :rolleyes:

[Chugalug2]

"Bums in seats, mate, bums in seats", was what the producer said to A.J Chegwidden in the show 'JAG' when he complained about the technical errors in a film in which AJ was supposed to be technical adviser!

No wiser words were ever spoken. The movie industry is just that and indeed shares the same business model as Civil Aviation. Ever since Errol Flynn drove the Imperial Japanese Army out of Burma single handed, the agenda has been clear that the only detail that matters is that the War (any war?) was won by the USA.

BTW, I'm not familiar with JAG, but Wiki tells me that AJ is a fictional character. Presumably the producer was speaking to the actor who plays AJ, John M Jackson, or was this about a film within a film? In any case AJ is the kind of boss I myself would want :-

On more than one occasion Chegwidden put his career on the line to back his staff or to help them when they needed it. According to Harriet Sims, the Admiral went to his boss, the Secretary of the Navy, pleading in letter, citing legal precedent, why Bud Roberts should not be passed over for promotion (Roberts was no longer qualified for sea duty after losing a leg to a land mine while rescuing an Afghani boy who had wandered into a minefield). The usual result of being passed over for promotion three times is involuntary separation from the Navy (in Bud's case, forced retirement on medical grounds). Bud's promotion to Lieutenant Commander was duly made and administering the oath of office was what Chegwidden considered to be his last official act as Judge Advocate General

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Chegwidden

[Hipper]

The King's Choice - the sinking of the Blucher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ79i11JSnU

I think this is pretty good but on the IMDB someone points out that 'The rate of fire from the smaller guns on the Blücher is demonstrated to be around 500 rounds a minute; the cyclic rate of fire of the smallest mounted guns was only around 120 rounds a minute.'!!!!

Generally this is a good film on one aspect of the invasion of Norway, an unusual subject for most of us.