IcelandAir fires Boeing 737 Max Pilots

[e1229]

Link: https://simpleflying.com/icelandair-fires-its-boeing-737-max-pilots/

After coming to the conclusion that the 737 MAX will be grounded longer than was first anticipated, Icelandair has fired its Boeing 737 MAX pilots.Icelandair made the announcement that it would be terminating 45 of its 737 MAX pilots during a training session, according to Aviation24.be (https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/icelandair/further-changes-to-icelandairs-flight-schedule-due-to-suspension-of-boeing-737-max-45-pilots-dismissed/).

Of the number of pilots let go, 21 included newcomers to the airline who had just begun working on the 737 MAX before it became grounded. The other 24 pilots to lose their jobs had been with the airline since last autumn, flying the ill-fated Boeing aircraft.

Having now made changes to its summer schedule to not include the 737 MAX, the Nordic carrier has announced that it has agreed to wet-lease one B757-200 from an unspecified carrier. The leased aircraft will be used during the summer season, between now and September.

This latest aircraft comes on the heels of two B767-300ERs Icelandair already leased from Portugal’s euroAtlantic Airways.

When ch-aviation (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/78572-icelandair-to-lease-in-q400-capacity-fires-max-pilots) asked Icelandair where they were leasing the 757-200 from, all Icelandair would say is that the aircraft will be equipped with 185 seats.Icelandair’s fleet

With its almost unique position halfway between North America and Europe, Iceland’s national flag carrier has built a business around stopover transatlantic flights. This is in addition to the demand for service in Iceland.

Their current fleet of all-Boeing aircraft is based at Keflavík International Airport in Reykjavík. It consists of 25 Boeing 757-200’s, two 757-300’s, four 767-300ER’s and 5 Boeing 737 MAX (https://simpleflying.com/what-airlines-have-the-boeing-737-max-on-order/?utm_source=Bibblio)aircraft.

With an average age of 20 years, Icelandair was in the process of retiring the 757’s and replacing them with the Boeing 737 MAX (https://simpleflying.com/spice-jet-boeing/?utm_source=Bibblio).

On paper, and given Icelandair’s history of working with Boeing, the 737 MAX looked like the ideal aircraft for the carrier, given its location in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

Icelandair even said so much themselves when talking about the 737 MAX on their website (https://www.icelandair.com/en-ca/about/our-fleet/)saying,

“With the addition of 16 737 MAX 8 and 9 – the first aircraft arriving in early 2018 – our fleet is perfectly suited to serve both Europe and North America from our unique location in Iceland.”What now for Icelandair and the 737 MAX?

No airline wants to have aircraft sitting on the ground that they cannot fly!

Icelandair and dozens of other airlines around the world are in this position now following the grounding of the 737 MAX (https://simpleflying.com/azerbaijan-airlines-cancels-737-max-order/) after the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airline disasters.

To make matters worse for Boeing the FAA is telling airlines to check 179, 737 MAX’s for improperly manufactured parts.

Called a leading-edge slat track a (part of the wing) that helps provide lift during take-off and landing was found to be susceptible to “premature failure or cracks resulting from the improper manufacturing process”, the FAA said on Sunday as reported by the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/03/new-safety-issue-boeing-737-max-planes).

While not threatening, it is just another bit of bad news for the American plane manufacturer.

Icelandair still needs to eventually replace their ageing 757 aircraft and with Emirates President Tim Clark telling reporters at the IATA’s AGM (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/02/airline-industry-cuts-profit-forecasts-fifth-us-china) in Seoul that “If it (737 MAX) is in the air by Christmas, I’ll be surprised,” Then maybe it’s time Icelandair started looking at the A321neo? What do you think?

[Byros]

Sad to see pilots lose their jobs due to the 737 MAX debacle, eventually when the plane flies again airlines will still have to deal with passengers who would rather book their flight on a different plane due to the bad reputation it has earned, in the end it could have a fate similar to the DC-10.

[FrequentSLF]

Hmmm.. sorry, i feel the pain of those that lost their job...but according to Boeing and FAA they are not MAX pilots, they are NG pilots with a tablet training for MAX...
i might sound rude, and I apologize to those are affected but according to authorities, there is no such thing as a MAX pilot

[LTNman]

Sad to see pilots lose their jobs due to the 737 MAX debacle, eventually when the plane flies again airlines will still have to deal with passengers who would rather book their flight on a different plane due to the bad reputation it has earned, in the end it could have a fate similar to the DC-10.

Southwest Airlines has removed the word Max from the flight safety cards so passengers won’t know they are in a Max. I would think the word Max won’t be appearing on any paintwork either.

[krautland]

Sad to see pilots lose their jobs due to the 737 MAX debacle, eventually when the plane flies again airlines will still have to deal with passengers who would rather book their flight on a different plane due to the bad reputation it has earned, in the end it could have a fate similar to the DC-10.

for two weeks, until something else takes over the news of the day.

[iggy]

"...would be terminating the pilots during a training session..."

Are they actually planning to fail the recurrent check so they have an excuse to fire the pilots?

[ironbutt57]

Hmmm.. sorry, i feel the pain of those that lost their job...but according to Boeing and FAA they are not MAX pilots, they are NG pilots with a tablet training for MAX...
i might sound rude, and I apologize to those are affected but according to authorities, there is no such thing as a MAX pilot

of course there is such thing as a "max pilot"...any pilots at a specific airline assigned only to the "max", would be a "max pilot" as per the airline yes? the pilots assigned to fly the the Max at Iceland, aka the "max pilots" were sent packing. they weren't employed by Boeing or the FAA..they were employed by Iceland Air...so they were Iceland Air "Max pilots"....make sense now??

[PilotRoger]

they just don't want to have extra crew in the payroll, I guess they are being careful trying to save some money. I don't think they have any other 737, so all the training was to introduce a new type in their boeing fleet.

[Meester proach]

of course there is such thing as a "max pilot"...any pilots at a specific airline assigned only to the "max", would be a "max pilot" as per the airline yes? the pilots assigned to fly the the Max at Iceland, aka the "max pilots" were sent packing. they weren't employed by Boeing or the FAA..they were employed by Iceland Air...so they were Iceland Air "Max pilots"....make sense now??


i think he’s trying to say they’ll have 737NG TR anyway, so won’t be short of offers for the old skool version. I hope they get something soon.

[rog747]

The summer leased 757 is from Privilege Style of Spain

[yellowtriumph]

they just don't want to have extra crew in the payroll, I guess they are being careful trying to save some money. I don't think they have any other 737, so all the training was to introduce a new type in their boeing fleet.

Would it not have been reasonable for IA to have kept the pilots on the payroll in anticipation of eventually taking delivery of the Max, and then negotiating these extra payroll costs from Boeing as part of the inevitable overall compensation package that IA, and indeed many other airlines, will be demanding?

[TURIN]

Fired! What is this? Some daft 'Reality' TV series?

They are being made redundant. Fired suggests it's their own fault. Who wrote this?

[Fly Aiprt]

Would it not have been reasonable for IA to have kept the pilots on the payroll in anticipation of eventually taking delivery of the Max, and then negotiating these extras payroll costs from Boeing as part of the inevitable overall compensation package that IA, and indeed many other airlines, will be demanding?

They might have had some info as to the date of return to service being quite remote ?

[Banana Joe]

Fired! What is this? Some daft 'Reality' TV series?

They are being made redundant. Fired suggests it's their own fault. Who wrote this?
I do hope it's like this.

[Byros]

Southwest Airlines has removed the word Max from the flight safety cards so passengers won’t know they are in a Max. I would think the word Max won’t be appearing on any paintwork either. Probably more airlines will follow that, if I'm not mistaken the aircraft are actually the 737-8 and 737-9, the MAX seems more like an ill fated marketing term.

Anyway, judging by the reactions Boeing's social platforms are getting to new developments, I doubt people will forget about the MAX situation any time soon.

[yoko1]

Would it not have been reasonable for IA to have kept the pilots on the payroll in anticipation of eventually taking delivery of the Max, and then negotiating these extra payroll costs from Boeing as part of the inevitable overall compensation package that IA, and indeed many other airlines, will be demanding?

There are real questions regarding how much compensation any airline will receive for the grounding event, but as a general point of law the harmed party has a duty to mitigate their losses and not run up the tab. Boeing could rightfully claim that IA had no duty to keep pilots on the payroll that they could no longer use absent some other contractual obligation to do so. It would have been a nice gesture on IA’s part, but it is also possible that they are looking at abandoning any plans to employ the 737 in their fleet.

[golfyankeesierra]

Fired! What is this? Some daft 'Reality' TV series?

They are being made redundant. Fired suggests it's their own fault. Who wrote this?

Being made redundant is management speak for being fired. Only makes it sound better..

[ph-sbe]

Fired! What is this? Some daft 'Reality' TV series?

They are being made redundant. Fired suggests it's their own fault. Who wrote this?

A non-native English speaker who does not know about the subtle differences between being laid off, made redundant, and fired.

So, to those who don't know the difference: being fired usually means that your employment is being terminated "for cause", meaning you ****** up and the company decided to punish you with termination. This usually happens only after you don't perform, or kick your manager in the face for example. If you have been fired, future empoyers will think twice before hiring you.

In this particular case, nobody was being "fired". The employees were made redundant (laid off). This was due to no fault of their own and future employers will not hesitate to hire them, as everyone understands the mechanics of economics.

Also note that this difference is especially important in at-will employment jurisdictions such as most states in the U.S. In my home state California, for example, my employer can let me know at any time for pretty much any reason. This is referred to as "at-will" employment. I can also quit my job at any time for any reason. The flip side of this is that I'll easily be rehired by someone else as this is without risk. This is in sharp contrast with most employment protections that employees have in most of the European Union, where in some cases an employer can only terminate an employee with permission from the government. Not to start a debate on which one is better, but just as an explanation.

[Chronus]

The B737 story is begging to look like the career of some famous actors who try and stay in the job far too long and end up making a complete fool of themselves. You can only do so much with make up, there comes a time when even the best plastic surgeon can no longer fill the boobs, stretch the wrinkles. Whilst all those unfortunate MAX crews get down to writing up their CV`s , Boeing might be starting to write a biography of their 737.

[Livesinafield]

"Made redundant" is very different from fired they are two different things completely.

Majority of pax not the sharpest when it comes to flying or anything in general, so after a while all will be forgotten about name's and accidents and it will be once again a race to the bottom for xyz to get to xyz the cheapest they can.

Fear not all will be forgotten

[racedo]

Bet Ryanair HR have already been on the phone.

[yanrair]

for two weeks, until something else takes over the news of the day.

Indeed. Ask any of your pals the name of the airline who's pilot that flew into the Alps a couple of years back. Nobody knows that I have asked.
Then ask them what that airline is called now! Same. Passengers have very short memories esp if names gets changed. DC10 became MD 11.
Ask them about the plane (737) lost with all lives at Amsterdam ten years ago on final approach. Which airline and why? Nobody even knows it happened and that is only down the road.

I think the 737 Max will be rebranded and I hope it has a long and safe future so that by the time it ends its life in about 25 years from now, say 2050, it will have been flying for nearly a century using the same airframe and lot of similar hardware that was on the 707.
I too feel sorry for those guys in Iceland. It is a cut throat business esp. in certain sectors of the business. I was lucky to have flown for the 35-40 happy years from the 707 to the 747-400 with a legacy airline (as they seem to be called) and some of it before LCC was a twinkle in someone's eye!
That said the LCCs did shake up the dinosaurs with benefits for all of us and for that I think we are all very grateful. BA / IAG this year made more money than its nearest LCC rival after a major shake up. So dinosaurs can indeed give birth to gazelles. They have crossed the aviation equivalent of the species barrier which the LCCs have always maintained cannot happen.
Cheers
Y

[DaveReidUK]

Ask them about the plane (737) lost with all lives at Amsterdam ten years ago on final approach. Which airline and why?

Really ???

[nevillestyke]

So, to those who don't know the difference: being fired usually means that your employment is being terminated "for cause", meaning you ****** up and the company decided to punish you with termination. This usually happens only after you don't perform, or kick your manager in the face for example. If you have been fired, future employers will think twice before hiring you.

I know one pilot who was fired, following a difference of opinion with RYR. His subsequent airline employer did NOT, apparently, have to think twice, before taking him on.

[ironbutt57]

DC=10 went on to be successful in its own right for many years, MD-11 was much later on...

[Loose rivets]

"...would be terminating the pilots during a training session..."
Are they actually planning to fail the recurrent check so they have an excuse to fire the pilots?

Any attempt to use such an obscene method of cost cutting should be stamped on with a unified ferocity that would bring tears to the eyes of their employers. I was not affected, but I remember the so-called Teesside massacre, where 32 pilots were suddenly not quite good enough to fly (what was then, a very large aircraft.)

[golfyankeesierra]

"Made redundant" is very different from fired they are two different things completely.


I wonder how the ”redundant” pilots will feel about that..

[ironbutt57]

i think he’s trying to say they’ll have 737NG TR anyway, so won’t be short of offers for the old skool version. I hope they get something soon.

he's trying to say somebody is wrong, and to prove himself clever by correcting them...very irritating..in fact there is no "NG" type rating either...the rating as per Boeing and the FAA is B737, since that is who he quoted.

[Smythe]

I'm not mistaken the aircraft are actually the 737-8 and 737-9

3 letter codes are 38M and 39M....they are still in meetings on the MAX 10!

[FRogge]

So off topic, but I need to correct when I see wrong information: ICAO 4 letter code: B38M, IATA 3 letter code: 7M8

[DaveReidUK]

So off topic, but I need to correct when I see wrong information: ICAO 4 letter code: B38M, IATA 3 letter code: 7M8

And while we're all in OT pedantic mode, ICAO type designators aren't necessarily 4-letter (or even 4-character), F70 being an obvious example. :O

[yanrair]

Really ???
Ref Crash AMS 10 years ago that passengers don't remember...........

Really what Dave? My Course qualification as a psychic have expired!
Y

[yanrair]

I know one pilot who was fired, following a difference of opinion with RYR. His subsequent airline employer did NOT, apparently, have to think twice, before taking him on.
When fired or more politely "retiring " from an airline, the hiring airline can be very easy -going on the application at a time of pilot shortage to the extent that if you have a licence on type, that can be as far as it goes. I know guys who are flying in Europe having left their previous airline, shall we say, not on the best of terms. Now, if the departure from the previous airline was say, due to dastardly union activity that doesn't matter to the hiring airline probably. But if it was because the pilot wasn't actually very good...............
Cheers
Y

[DaveReidUK]

Ask them about the plane (737) lost with all lives at Amsterdam ten years ago on final approach.

I was wondering which accident that was, as it doesn't ring any bells.

[tubby linton]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951 Nine dead including the three pilots.

[KriVa]

"...would be terminating the pilots during a training session..."

Are they actually planning to fail the recurrent check so they have an excuse to fire the pilots?

I actually think you needed to quote that sentence pretty much in its entirety to get the correct meaning from it:
Icelandair made the announcement that it would be terminating 45 of its 737 MAX pilots during a training session.
or, put differently:
Icelandair made the announcement, that it would be terminating 45 of its 737 MAX pilots, during a training session.

[Pistonprop]

Yanrair, if you want to make a point, don't taint it with incorrect information. It only invalidates you as a reliable source in these forums. The great majority of passengers survived that accident in Amsrerdam.

[ironbutt57]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951 Nine dead including the three pilots.


actually interesting he brought that up, yet another single-point (Capts RADALT) systems failure that was endemic to the 737 for a time, causing the A/T system to go to "retard" mode too early when on approach, the Turks were unstable and didn't catch it...several other airlines managed to...ya think Boeing might have learned from a single-point failure there, but looks not to be the case

[SteinarN]

actually interesting he brought that up, yet another single-point (Capts RADALT) systems failure that was endemic to the 737 for a time, causing the A/T system to go to "retard" mode too early when on approach, the Turks were unstable and didn't catch it...several other airlines managed to...ya think Boeing might have learned from a single-point failure there, but looks not to be the case

I was thinking the same. And also in this case there actually are TWO radioaltimeters on the aircraft, but only one used at a time, hence no cross check or other validation on the reasonability or correctness of the measured value.

[MurphyWasRight]

Originally Posted by Livesinafield https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/622216-icelandair-fires-boeing-737-max-pilots-post10487233.html#post10487233)
"Made redundant" is very different from fired they are two different things completely.

I wonder how the ”redundant” pilots will feel about that..


A historical note on 'fired' is that it was originally an euphemism for "discharged" which I believe covered both "made redundant / laid off" and "let go for cause", back then there was not as much a distinction since the employer held all the cards.
As others have pointed out modern usage of fired has much different connotation than laid off.

In the USA at least in some states "termination for cause" (aka fired) can affect eligibility for unemployment benefits.
Needles to say that is a quagmire since employers unemployment insurance rates are determined in part by their lay off history so the sleazy ones will try anything to avoid the hit.

[yanrair]

I was wondering which accident that was, as it doesn't ring any bells.
Sorry Dave. My fault although that’s my point- nobody remembers!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

official report “ cause - radio altimeter failure not noticed by crew”
Uhm!!
y

[yanrair]

Yanrair, if you want to make a point, don't taint it with incorrect information. It only invalidates you as a reliable source in these forums. The great majority of passengers survived that accident in Amsrerdam.
you are correct Pistonprop.
There were nine fatalities and a total of 117 injuries, 11 of them serious.[50] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-FinalReport-50)(p29,178–180) Five of the deceased victims were Turkish citizens (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), including the pilot, the co-pilot, a trainee pilot and one member of the cabin crew.[52] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-bbc-52)[53] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-53)[54] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-54)[55] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-55) Four were Americans (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), of whom three have been identified as Boeing (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing) employees stationed in Ankara and working on an Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Early_Warning_and_Control) program for the Turkish military (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Armed_Forces).[7] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-CNN_article-7)[16] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-TC/Tubantia-16)[48] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-EastSchiphol-48)[56] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-Boeing-56)[57] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-Wallace-57)

The plane carried 53 passengers from the Netherlands, 51 from Turkey, seven from the United States, three from the United Kingdom, one each from Germany, Bulgaria, and Italy, and one from either Thailand[58] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-58)[59] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-59) or Taiwan.[56] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-Boeing-56)[57] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-Wallace-57)[60]
END (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951#cite_note-60)
I had forgotten the exact details , but not the crash which exposed some very bad crew responses. But my point was that even major crashes are quickly forgotten and I proved that by not recalling the details. We have short memories.
Y

[Helix Von Smelix]

Wasn't there two 737 NG that nose dived in to the ground on go around.
Russia?
I know one deffo did.

[yanrair]

Wasn't there two 737 NG that nose dived in to the ground on go around.
Russia?
I know one deffo did.
FLY DUBAI 981 ROSTOV?

[Loose rivets]

Remind me what that accelerative disorientation is called.

[India Four Two]

somatogravic illusion is the phrase you are looking for, Rob

[Hotel Tango]

But my point was that even major crashes are quickly forgotten and I proved that by not recalling the details. We have short memories.

yanrair, I think that most of us remember THY at AMS. Some posters were only puzzled because you mentioned an accident at AMS which killed all passengers. That's what they couldn't remember, quite rightly, as there was no such accident! I think that what you proved is that YOU have a short memory! ;)

[flysmiless]

Also Reykjavik-based airline also planning to dismiss 24 pilots while suspending the recruitment of another 21 pilots..

[TSR2]

Yanrair..

The radio altimeter fault WAS noticed by the Captain and he continually cancelled the warning. What was not noticed by the crew was the declining air speed.

[FalseGS]

Almost 10k hours on the NG/MAX.
Could you please tell me how to ‘cancel’ an RA warning?

[mik3bravo]

Sad to see pilots lose their jobs due to the 737 MAX debacle, eventually when the plane flies again airlines will still have to deal with passengers who would rather book their flight on a different plane due to the bad reputation it has earned, in the end it could have a fate similar to the DC-10.

Reputation Damage irrevearsable in the a/c. Doubt pax will want to take a chance regardless what a corporation states.

[Chronus]

I wonder how the ”redundant” pilots will feel about that..


My guess would be, please add my name to the casualty list.

The question is how many more to be added to this list, not necessarily involving loss of life, but loss of livelihood.

[2Planks]

Regarding the issue about keeping the guys on and reclaiming from Boeing - cash flow may be an issue, given that Boeing are hiring a very expensive team of defense lawyers (from the other thread) it may be a long time before any compensation is paid - if at all. But if cash flow turns negative airlines lives are measure in weeks. Doesn't make it right, business is harsh.

When, and not if, the MAX flies again I am sure there will be a rebranding, MAX is too catchy a name. Had it been the 737-1100 or something similar it would have been forgotten. I suspect MAX has now entered the consciousness of the flying masses. Indeed, it doesn't help that Max is often associated with Mad thanks to a certain film and that's how I see it referred to on some travel/leisure forums. Something anodyne will be the order of the day.

[bzh]

737-800 NEO .....