View Full Version : QF vs PAPL
f1yhigh
3rd Jun 2019, 01:19
Australian Business Traveller just published an article with Joyce saying the dispute between Perth Airport and Qantas is stopping Qantas from ordering new aircraft and starting PER-CDG flights.
Why doesn't PAPL want QF using T3 for additional international flights except for the Singapore and London flights?
Rated De
3rd Jun 2019, 01:23
No, no, no Little Napoleon, the narrative last year was the it was the QSA 1992 stopping Qantas from re-equipping!
It is contract season too, so Little Napoleon make sure you blame the pilots!
Have a read Mr Joyce, you are forgetting which story is your preferred narrative of the day.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-says-foreign-ownership-cap-could-make-fleet-overhaul-harder-20180104-p4yy8l.htm
Dee Vee
3rd Jun 2019, 02:10
Australian Business Traveller just published an article with Joyce saying the dispute between Perth Airport and Qantas is stopping Qantas from ordering new aircraft and starting PER-CDG flights.
So the "dispute" is because Qantas want to use the domestic terminal for international flights...
Doesn't sound like a "dispute" to me, just Qantas trying to bully Perth airport to suit themselves, rather than following the rules, and running international flights through the international terminal with all the proper security/immigration/quarantine etc etc facilities already in place.
*Lancer*
3rd Jun 2019, 02:12
So the "dispute" is because Qantas want to use the domestic terminal for international flights...
Doesn't sound like a "dispute" to me, just Qantas trying to bully Perth airport to suit themselves, rather than following the rules, and running international flights through the international terminal with all the proper security/immigration/quarantine etc etc facilities already in place.
T3 has all these facilities already in place.
Rules are only set by what stakeholders negotiate.
chrisb74
3rd Jun 2019, 02:33
PAPL want everyone over on the T1/T2 side in the early 2020's and QF have been resisting. I assume the negotiations on JNB and CDG flights also involve getting QF to commit to moving over to the T1/T2 area. I guess they like their little isolated JQ/QF world and PAPL would like to sell off the land.
dr dre
3rd Jun 2019, 02:55
So the "dispute" is because Qantas want to use the domestic terminal for international flights...
Theres no domestic/international terminals anymore, it’s T1 and 2 on the east side and T3/4 on the west side. T1 and 3 both have customs facilities.
*Lancer*
3rd Jun 2019, 04:03
PAPL want everyone over on the T1/T2 side in the early 2020's and QF have been resisting. I assume the negotiations on JNB and CDG flights also involve getting QF to commit to moving over to the T1/T2 area. I guess they like their little isolated JQ/QF world and PAPL would like to sell off the land.
I thought QF was happy to move when the time comes? Redevelopment of the T1/2 side will take significantly longer than any growth plans for QF international flying, and PAPL want to split QF ops until the redevelopment is complete. JQ still operate DPS and SIN on the other side.
CurtainTwitcher
3rd Jun 2019, 04:25
It's a 30 minute journey on the inner airport road at the speed limit from QF domestic to international in a car. This transit time between would be a considerable commercial penalty for QF. They would want to make it easy to manage delays with complexing domestic to international just by walking a few hundred metres rather than bussing over the other side. Making it seamless also makes travellers sticky to QF international.
It also cuts Perth Airport out of a revenue stream with passenger International handling charges for their terminal and duty free sales which is probably where the issue is with PAPL.
topend3
3rd Jun 2019, 06:31
It's a 30 minute journey on the inner airport road at the speed limit from QF domestic to international in a car.
Fake news it's about 10-15
CurtainTwitcher
3rd Jun 2019, 06:52
Really? I actually timed it. As I said, at the speed limit using the outer perimeter road around the DER for 21 from QF domestic to International.
BuzzBox
3rd Jun 2019, 07:19
...just Qantas trying to bully Perth airport to suit themselves...
Exactly.
PAPL's view:
https://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/241030/subdr173-airports.pdf
TBM-Legend
3rd Jun 2019, 07:37
Many airports all over the world mix international gates with domestic gates. Examples; DFW, LAX, LHR, CDG, FRA, VIE and the list goes on. Here we make the pax travel from terminal to terminal eg BNE,SYD,PER. Actually MEL comes close to a good Oz design..
T3 might have the customs, immigration and security facilities but its a bit of a dogs breakfast. When they are ready to start checking in and clearing the intl pax, the T3 sterile area has to be spilled and cleared of domestic passengers or airport visitors each time. The exercise usually takes anything from 15 - 30 minutes. International pax then get screened twice. Once to come upstairs in T3 - T4 and again to pass through international departures.
ExtraShot
3rd Jun 2019, 07:58
Exactly.
PAPL's view:
https://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/241030/subdr173-airports.pdf
A legally binding Heads of Agreement (HOA) between Qantas and Perth Airport was executed in late 2016 to facilitate Qantas direct flights between Perth Airport Terminal 3 and Singapore, Auckland and European cities.
Perth Airport shareholders invested $10 million to an upgrade of Terminal 3, and significant State and Commonwealth Government funds were also investedand committed based on the specific arrangements stipulated in the HOA, which precluded, except in specific circumstances, Qantas from operating routes from Terminal 3 outside ofthose routes specified in the HOA.
I have been critical of PACL refusing to allow Qantas to operate the Perth - Joburg sector from Terminal 3 before, but hadn't seen this. As disappointing as it is, it is there in black and white, they had every right to refuse it. The HOA should have been amended or its tough, but Qantas will need to wait until they move over to a combined facility on the Eastern side of the airport if they want to fly to destinations outside the agreement (I don't necessarily understand why PACL wouldn't be keen for more business but its their train set). HOWEVER, it doesn't say LONDON, does it? It says European Cities.
So it now seems Qantas could be using the Perth - Paris flights ( and the long rumoured Frankfurt flight) to conflate the issues around their case against the user charges in the press? It seems there is nothing else stopping them going ahead... unless there's a cop-out brewing!?
dr dre
3rd Jun 2019, 08:26
The HOA should have been amended or its tough, but Qantas will need to wait until they move over to a combined facility on the Eastern side of the airport if they want to fly to destinations outside the agreement (I don't necessarily understand why PACL wouldn't be keen for more business but its their train set).
It's pretty much assumed when (if?) PER-JNB starts that SAA will pull out of the route. That's assuming they haven't collapsed by the time it happens, which is now seemingly like a possible occurrence (https://simpleflying.com/saa-ceo-resigns/). Probably why PAPL is wanting QF to operate out of T1/2, as it'll be a further loss of flights from that terminal.
The Green Goblin
3rd Jun 2019, 08:31
If only someone didn’t sell the terminal they owned.....
Heywoodjablome
3rd Jun 2019, 09:56
When Terminal 1 opened it was designed ( crap design admittedly ) as a purely International operation with offices & facilities to accommodate Fedpol, ACS , AQIS & Duty Free .Qantas at the time offered it's own services to SIN,DPS,HKG etc as well as ground handling for most other International Carriers including TG,TE,SQ,SAA,BA.GA??? others were handled by AN . At the same time QF moved their Catering & Freight Services to the T1 precinct as it was part of the grand plan to have all operations in additional terminals in a basic horseshoe design with the new Control Tower as a central point. T1 was operated by Federal Airport Corporation which became Westralia Airports Corporation when privatised then later became PAPL.When QF bought/merged with TN there was still International at T1 & purely domestic ops at the TN now QF dom Terminal.
GA Driver
9th Jun 2019, 23:10
The amount Qantas unilaterally determined it would pay was 42.1 % lower than Perth Airport’s last proposal, and 50.3% lower than the prices paid in the previous year.
Perth Airport repeatedly put Qantas on notice that if Qantas continued to pay at the rate Qantas had unilaterally set, Perth Airport would be forced to take legal to action to resolve the issue.
So why don't they just 'lock them out' until the bill is paid? Didn't something similar happen at Canberra also?
Icarus2001
10th Jun 2019, 00:48
PAPL would like to sell off the land.
They cannot sell what they do not own. PAPL lease the airport from the Federal government. They want to sub lease the Western areas as part of Airport West. That is why the new railway station is not even at the terminal but further West.
If only someone didn’t sell the terminal they owned.....
They haven't yet, but the lease is up this year, so what is sold is all the improvements that Qantas made to the terminal over that time. PAPL took back the lease on T4 ages ago, and QF bullied them into setting up the crap international facility there by going to the previous state government and getting them to (foolishly) hand over some of the money that PAPL wasn't going to put into it.