LHR Transfer T2 to T5 (both domestic flights)

[BKS Air Transport]

I was making a transfer from a Flybe domestic flight (T2 arrival) to a BA one (T5 departure).

The bus from the Flybe aircraft deposited us in a domestic area of T2. I had hand baggage only, so I followed the 'Flight Connections' signs the short distance to a waiting area for a bus to T5. I caught the bus, which then picked up more passengers from two stops nearby (T2 international?) before making the journey over to T5. On arrival, I followed the 'Flight Connections' signs for domestic flights and found myself at a UK Border point with passport checks. I had my passport with me (I'd used it as I/D on Flybe), so I just used it to pass through the gates as directed by the attendant, without really giving it much thought.

A couple of questions occurred to me later:

1) Had I gone wrong somewhere? It doesn't seem quite right that I had become an 'international' passenger?
2) What would have happened if I'd not had my passport with me?

[DaveReidUK]

What would have happened if I'd not had my passport with me?

Did you not have to show proof of ID prior to your original departure on Flybe? It may be that the system assumes that that's the case, i.e. that arriving domestic pax will normally be carrying a passport anyway.

[BKS Air Transport]

Yes, those are my thoughts as well.

I've had a look at what BA say (I don't believe they themselves require any ID for domestic flights), and they advise carrying photographic ID, as 'this may be requested at certain points in your journey'.

I guess I found one of those points :)

[atakacs]

Shouldn't you be allowed travel domestic without an ID? I understand UK doesn't have a constitution per se and very limited rule of law.but freedom of movement still sounds like a fundamental right.

[wiggy]

Yes, those are my thoughts as well.

I've had a look at what BA say (I don't believe they themselves require any ID for domestic flights), and they advise carrying photographic ID, as 'this may be requested at certain points in your journey'.

I guess I found one of those points :)

If you went through Border control then was not down to BA doing a ID check, TBH it sounds as if you were being treated as an international arrival or somebody who (excuse the term) had been “contaminated” by contact with international passengers who themselves were in transit between the two terminals and had not entered the U.K.

[Paul Lupp]

Shouldn't you be allowed travel domestic without an ID? I understand UK doesn't have a constitution per se and very limited rule of law.but freedom of movement still sounds like a fundamental right.

My understanding of this is that the security system links your facial image at the camera to your boarding pass.
In theory, if you are flying domestically you could check in on line, give your boarding pass to someone else, they go straight to the security barrier and pass through etc... no checks to make sure that the person whose name is on the pass is actually the traveller (pax/SLF) flying on the plane.

Ultimately, does this matter? One paid-for ticket, one travelling passenger

[wiggy]

Ultimately, does this matter? One paid-for ticket, one travelling passenger

It might well matter to the airline...

For example if there are no identity checks then an individual could make a business out of booking a ticket (or tickets) well ahead of the flight date at possibly a cheap rate for popular domestic flights. Nearer the flight date, when "offical" prices have probably gone up, that person could then sell the tickets on at a profit to other individuals..

The airline want that profit...

[Alsacienne]

........ not to mention the security aspect.

[rationalfunctions]

It might well matter to the airline...

For example if there are no identity checks then an individual could make a business out of booking a ticket (or tickets) well ahead of the flight date at possibly a cheap rate for popular domestic flights. Nearer the flight date, when "offical" prices have probably gone up, that person could then sell the tickets on at a profit to other individuals..

The airline want that profit...

Rail companies don't care who the passenger is (unless there are railcard discounts etc) so why should domestic air travel be any different? In future, I wonder if airlines would embrace a resale market on the basis that they could transfer sales risk to a third party, albeit accepting lower yields?

[Paul Lupp]

........ not to mention the security aspect.
If neither the purchaser of the ticket, nor the actual traveller, has any sinister motive, there is no security issue.

Now if there were to be a serious "incident" then of course the correct family./relatives should be contacted, and with a difference of names that would be "interesting"..... but not a security issue

[wiggy]

In future, I wonder if airlines would embrace a resale market on the basis that they could transfer sales risk to a third party, albeit accepting lower yields?

I think the airlines went down that road years ago with things called travel agents? As I recall the airlines decided to embrace a higher yield by cutting them out of the equation.

[wiggy]

If neither the purchaser of the ticket, nor the actual traveller, has any sinister motive, there is no security issue.

Now if there were to be a serious "incident" then of course the correct family./relatives should be contacted, and with a difference of names that would be "interesting"..... but not a security issue

Well the first paragraph is stating the blindingly obvious, but the second one is leaving me decidedly confused....sounds to me like you are only interested in establishing identities after a potentially serious event. In the general run of operations how would you reconcile legal documents such as APIS, General Declarations, manifests, Passenger lists (delete as applicable) if the name of the boarding card which was checked at the gate doesn't match the name of the traveller?

[BKS Air Transport]

If we accept that BA themselves don't do ID checks on domestic flights, how do they 'reconcile legal documents....'?

I'm pretty certain that the last time I checked-in 'manually' for a domestic flight at Heathrow the agent just brushed my photo ID aside, commenting "we don't need that."

I accept that T5's security system ties a 'face' to a boarding pass, and the reservation system will have a name for the boarding pass, but the 'name' does not have to be the 'face', unless I'm missing something.

[BKS Air Transport]

Returning to my original post, I think my bemusement was mainly at finding myself on the external side of the UK border, despite never having left the country. If I'd not had my passport with me, but had say travelled on Flybe using a driving licence (as I need photo ID on their flights to satisfy their Ts & Cs) then I presume I would have had to have approached someone at a border desk and explained my situation. I guess they would have been able to check Flybe's passenger list and let me through, though I can't help feel that there may be some potential breach of a right here as I should be able to travel within the UK without let or hindrance, and I'd include in that explaining what I'm doing. I'd quickly add that it is not something I'm actually taking issue with, more theorising.

As a general point, I wonder if Heathrow should put a notice in the domestic transfer area of T2 warning passengers that if they are transferring airside to a domestic flight at T5 they will encounter the UK border? Passengers could then, if they wished, choose to transfer landside, with no such issue.

[atakacs]

In my opinion this is a deficiency in the organisation of passengers flow in LHR. You should never be required to pass a border control if you fly domestic, plain and simple.

[DaveReidUK]

Isn't the basic problem that there isn't a distinction between being "international airside" and "domestic airside" ?

As soon as you are in a position where you are potentially mixing with international passengers (depending on the design of the airport), then it would be wise to expect that you might be asked to show some ID, as you would have been when you boarded your domestic leg.

[PAXboy]

I think the situation encountered by the O/P is down to airports growing in ways the original design could not anticipate. Heathrow has gone from One terminal to Five. T1 has been demolished for a complete rebuild, T2 has already been through that. T3 bears little resemblance to the 'Oceanic Terminal' I remember from my first flight in December 1965. At LHR we now have (I think) domestic and international flights from each terminal and it would be impossible to keep all pax separate in Air and Landside and Int and Domestic as that makes ten groups of people.

Further, the interconnects that Pax make nowdays is utterly different to even 30 years ago. Pax use low-cost to legacy, within an alliance but the carriers may be at different terminals, the connection might be secure tunnel, bus or people mover. Smaller airports do not have the problem and new airports are designed to limit paths crossing. In the USA, early terminal designs allowed Meeters & Greeters to walk TO THE GATE to meet folks off the jetway! These have all had to be remodlled due to the changing demands of modern life. In practice, 'without let and hindrance' will sometimes involve checking your ID.

[Paul Lupp]

Isn't the basic problem that there isn't a distinction between being "international airside" and "domestic airside" ?

Indeed - and isn't the "problem" only because of terrorists/terrorism? In a simple life, airside should be airside and you should just be able to transfer from one flight to another irrespective of the start of your journey since you would have been security checked before being allowed onto your first flight of your overall journey. I suggest that it's only because of paranoia that some countries wish to security check every passenger boarding in their country since they do not trust prior checks in other countries.

[longer ron]

Which is why I will never travel by air without my passport LOL

[DaveReidUK]

I suggest that it's only because of paranoia that some countries wish to security check every passenger boarding in their country since they do not trust prior checks in other countries.

Heathrow has arriving flights from over 180 airports in more than 80 countries. To recognise that not every one of those has equally rigorous security standards doesn't sound remotely "paranoid" to me.

[EESDL]

LHR is one messed-up airport and continues to make me laugh when compared to other airports of any ‘note’.
The sardine-packed terminal transfer bus methodology is from the Dark Ages...

[PAXboy]

That might be so EESDL but, I suggest that, even if the British government had been able to create a new from scratch London airport in the 1980s or 1990s - it would still be out of date today. The security issues (real or imagined the impact is the same) and the criss-cross of routing - not forgetting that everyone now wants the txfer to be lightning fast and hassle free, whilst taking their large carry-on?

Every pax wants everything and for a lower price - somewhere they will be dissapointed.

[Paul Lupp]

LHR is one messed-up airport and continues to make me laugh when compared to other airports of any ‘note’.
The sardine-packed terminal transfer bus methodology is from the Dark Ages...
Inter-terminal transfer is something that Heathrow does particularly badly. The train link between terminals is provided by London Transport (or TFL) services and not something provided by the airport itself. The frequency of once every 15 minutes from T5, for example, is a laugh in this day and age where many airports provide a better service once every 5 minutes or more frequently

[custardpsc]

The reason for the ID check is that domestic and international pax are intentionally mixed, mostly to allow domestic pax to access the shopping.... the ID check is to stop international pax swapping boarding cards with domestic pax

more info here
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580993/Heathrow-airport-first-to-fingerprint.html

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

ID check is to prevent arriving international passengers ostensibly connecting onto another international flight from simply boarding a domestic flight and missing the UK Border check on arrival in say, Glasgow. The whole rationale came about when they stopped segregating domestic travellers as they wanted them to spend in the same shops as transit passengers. Hence when a domestic passenger arrives off the street into LHR, they get their face scanned to make sure they don't simply off-load, leave via the UK border and allow someone with no right to enter the UK to use their boarding card on a domestic route and avoid border controls.
The case of T2 domestic to T5 domestic is laboured, *BUT* the numbers are tiny as you're talking about connecting EI's BHD or FlyBe's ABZ/EDI/IOM/(JER as CTA)/NQY to BA's ABZ/BHD/EDI/GLA/LBA/MAN network, and there are easier ways to get from A to B on that list rather than via LHR.
btw as soon as you got on a bus at Flight Connections you were mixing with other international passengers and so as a non sterile environment, you'd need to re-clear security to Uk DfT standards at T5 unlike at T5 where domestic arrivals on the 500 stands to about 506 can go upstairs directly to departures as they're kept in a sterile area within UK security standards. #phew

[BKS Air Transport]

All fair enough, but I’m increasingly of the opinion that signage at T2 arrivals should warn you of this if you choose to make an airside transfer. I’m a reasonably experienced traveller, first flight taken in 1970, but I wasn’t expecting what happened and I was concerned I’d (somehow) gone wrong.
BTW I reckon BE’s move of their NQY service to Heathrow will see a jump in numbers doing the transfer; it gives a several times a day connecting opportunity for getting to/from Cornwall (back to the old Brymon days but sadly without Plymouth :sad:).

[Asturias56]

For many years it was possible to arrive at T1 CDG and finish out in the street (sans luggage) without ever seeing immigration or customs - I think I did it 3 times..................... I think that was a signage problem allied to lack of supervision on one important door...............

What was weird was that they knew all about it - when you went up to a guy in Customs and explained he'd shrug and take you through the "behind the scenes" bit of Immigration and leave you in front of Immigration.. most odd

[Impress to inflate]

Good Luck, Ive been a frequent flyer into/out of Heathrow since 1978. I recently arrived into T3 and had 50 minutes to transfer to T5 for a connecting (Domestic) flight. It was a true NIGHTMARE. Everyone in T3 made it their job to hinder me for the process. T3 is the worst terminal IN THE WORLD

[Asturias56]

Not quite but certainly not anyone's idea of what a modern terminal should be (see LHR T2)

just extension after extension cobbled on where they could fit them in at the time

In need of major tear down and rebuild IMHO

[DaveReidUK]

In need of major tear down and rebuild IMHO

Which is in fact the plan.

[Asturias56]

When Dave? They were talking about 2019 when all the flights wee supposed to have moved to T2 but it still looked pretty busy last week when we taxied by..................

[DaveReidUK]

When Dave? They were talking about 2019 when all the flights wee supposed to have moved to T2 but it still looked pretty busy last week when we taxied by..................

Back in 2014, the published timescale (all contingent on R3 going ahead) was:

R3 operational (2025)
T6A Phase 1 (J) (2026)
T6B Phase 1 (K) (2026)
T6A Phase 2 (J) (2027)
T6B Phase 2 (K) (2027)
T2A Phase 2 (C) (2032)
T2E (D) (2033)
T2D (E) (2034)
T2A Phase 3 (C) (2036)
T2C (A) (2036)

The letters A to J indicate the elements of the "toast-rack" (terminals and satellites) in order reading east to west. K is the T6 satellite adjacent to R3.

So don't hold your breath. :O

[Asturias56]

so since there is no chance of R3 by 2025..................... T3 it is for the next 10 years................