RR Spey

[ZeBedie]

Was this the last engine developed to see service both in airliners and fast jets? Was it originally intended as a civil or as a military engine?

[dixi188]

The CFM56 uses the core of the F101 military engine.
Wiki says the Spey was a civilian engine first.
RR Spey was the first engine I got to work on and understand its operation. The CASC unit (FFR) took me three classroom courses to get my head round its workings.
Happy days.

[Compass Call]

I thought that the CSDS was a nightmare. Especially changing it down route without a stand!

[Krystal n chips]

I thought that the CSDS was a nightmare. Especially changing it down route without a stand!

Succinctly put....and accurate as was the post that preceded yours.

A stand was as much a hindrance as a help to be frank. The Spey was designed by Rolls with the blissful illusion all maintenance would be carried out in a warm well lit bay in Derby. I know a few people who were involved with the development and testing of the heap of junk, one in particular with the above mentioned unit, and as he diplomatically concedes, RR couldn't be entirely to blame for supplier's design, ahem, "concept ".

[dixi188]

I seem to recall the CSDS was a two man shoulder lift sort of thing to change it. We are talking BAC 1-11 here of course.

[Offchocks]

CSDS....... constant speed drive system?

I remember from 35 plus years ago on BAC 1-11s in far flung places, standing under the engine stub turning valves doing manual engine starts. The Spanish ground crew wouldn’t come near you!

[dixi188]

CSDS = Constant Speed Drive and Starter.

[Offchocks]

CSDS = Constant Speed Drive and Starter.

Thanks for the information, the 1-11 was my first jet, but after 35 years on Boeings I cant remember a great deal about it!

[Allan Lupton]

The Spey was for the Trident initially and had separate starter and CSD systems.
The 111 had the air-driven CSD/starter referred to above which, inter alia, added a good bit to the noise that aeroplane was renowned for!

[Bergerie1]

RR Olympus - Vulcan, Victor, TSR-2 and Concorde

[DaveReidUK]

RR Olympus - Vulcan, Victor, TSR-2 and Concorde

Not the Victor.

[treadigraph]

Vague recollection from spectator's balcony of 1-11s starting up at Gatwick with a rising whine then something like a clunk as though something was disengaging or was that the engine lighting off?

[chevvron]

With 1-11s I've heard, once the engine was able to 'self sustain', the starter seemed to disengage then overspeed momentarily before the 'whine' wound down.

[Bergerie1]

Dave, You are right, I stand corrected. Mercie!!

[Wander00]

Spectators' balconies - now there's a memory or two

[dc9-32]

and for those who wish to indulge...... fast forward to 3m 40s and 23m 30s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_F16I0m6k4 and enjoy....
ahhh the memories of hot days on the ramp and these beauties singing !

[rogerg]

I have never seen that 2 stage HP cock operation during start up.

[dixi188]

I seem to recall "Start" position of the HP cock was used if OAT was below 15C, otherwise it want straight to "OPEN"

[Compass Call]

On the 485-GD, for first start of the day, start selector switch to 'start', then at 15% HP cock to 'start position', then at 400 degrees TGT, HP cock to 'open'.
In European winters this was done for every start.

[Box Blur]

General Electric CF/TF34? (Bombardier Challengers/A-10s & S-3s)

[rogerg]

I started my 1-11 flying in BCAL and don't remember a "Start" position on the HP cock, mind you we did "milk" them sometimes to stop the EGT from busting the limits!

[134brat]

I have just read through this thread and am surprised to see no input from military Spey guys who worked on the Phantom. Yes, the CASC was indeed a mind boggling piece of kit to understand but the military Spey 202/203 had the additional joy of reheat complete with it's own fuel and oil systems. I had a fun time trying to change a CSDU for the first time when I found out about the oil outlet pipe which came out through the top of the unit and was near impossible to disconnect and reconnect. This was also the 'wrong ' engine for the F4 and took a team of five a full 8-10 hours to do an engine change as it didn't fit too well. Once it was in there though it was a truly impressive sight in full burner especially at night!

[Yellow Sun]

Bear in mind that the other military use of the Spey was on the Nimrod. The sortie profiles were unique, involving high and low level and routine in flight shutdown and relight. On the maritime aircraft at least one engine would be shut down on the majority of sorties. Relighting was usually accomplished by windmill starting for routine relights or air assist cross bleed when relighting following engine failure in 2+2 configuration. It was a reliable power plant, I never had one fail in flight or fail or to relight in 13 years on the aircraft.

YS

[DaveReidUK]

This was also the 'wrong ' engine for the F4 and took a team of five a full 8-10 hours to do an engine change as it didn't fit too well.

That's not too shabby.

From my dim and distant memories of engine changes on the Trident (where it was allegedly supposed to fit :O), those took the best part of a shift to accomplish.

[TURIN]

That's not too shabby.

From my dim and distant memories of engine changes on the Trident (where it was allegedly supposed to fit :O), those took the best part of a shift to accomplish.


Job and away?

[tremblerman]

The CSDU on the F4 was indeed a nightmare to replace. The comment made about changing it in a bay situation is absolutely correct.
We found this out when a couple of Woodhall Spa engine bay lads were posted on to the squadron (111) and were astonished to find out we were expected to do a CSDU change on wing.
However, I found the bigger CSDS on the 1-11 easier as it was slightly more accessible and the stand supplied was replaced by 2 fitters.

[Krystal n chips]

For those whose ear drums were the recipients of the dulcet sound.........

A bit off topic but I always understood the problems with the F4 and the Spey were induced when we decided to waist the fuselage and shoe-horn the engine in....not helped by the No 7 ? tank in the fin......which leaked. Had some dealings with British World...some very good engineers there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztHiNV9kjSQ

[tremblerman]

The "coke bottle"shape of the F4 was straightened out to get the Spey in. This affected the area rule characteristics.
The 7 tank was not in the fin, it was the last tank between the engines. It was permanently locked closed, valve controls in the right undercarriage bay (I think).
It was not used because it was prone to venting on rotation, straight on to the reheat flame.

[John Eacott]

Bear in mind that the other military use of the Spey was on the Nimrod.

YS

The Blackburn Buccaneer S2 also used the Spey: this was an urgent spare I slung back to Eagle from RAF Gan. The wrappings weren't designed for use under a Sea King ;)

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1716-4/Buccaneer+Spey+pick+up.JPG

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1718-3/Buccaneer+Spey+underslung+01.JPG

[John Eacott]

And another Spey lift, this time a Phantom Spey out of Leuchars to the Ark Royal. Better engine coverings or better preparation of the engine in its carrying mount!


http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8251-2/07+Phantom+Spey+lift+from+RAF+Leuchars.jpg


http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8254-2/08+Phantom+Spey+lift+from+RAF+Leuchars.jpg

So the final 7 years of Ark Royal had the two FJ squadrons using the same basic engine in completely different aircraft types, Buccaneer S2 and F4K Phantom: was this paralleled anywhere else?

[Krystal n chips]

The "coke bottle"shape of the F4 was straightened out to get the Spey in. This affected the area rule characteristics.
The 7 tank was not in the fin, it was the last tank between the engines. It was permanently locked closed, valve controls in the right undercarriage bay (I think).
It was not used because it was prone to venting on rotation, straight on to the reheat flame.

Thank you for that. I was well aware of the area rule design... and why. That said, I forgot the exact location of the No7 tank....it's been a while since I spent several weeks incarcerated in a classroom located in the heart of the Lincolnshire tundra.....;)

[DHfan]

I've always understood that the Spey was chosen solely to give UK manufacturing input and it did adversely affect performance - "lots of money for a worse aeroplane."
However I've recently read that without the Spey - or more accurately, with the original engines - we couldn't have used it on our carriers.
This goes against the accepted story but if it's true why isn't it better known?

Bear in mind - "I know nothing" - it's only something I read somewhere fairly recently.

[fantom]

Dunno if it is fact but I was informed (during the course) that there was, in the US, a senior eng person who was able to squeeze the engine into our newly-built F4s because the yanks couldn't.

[chevvron]

Bear in mind that the other military use of the Spey was on the Nimrod.
Some marks of the A7 Corsair 11 too.

[TEEEJ]

Ever wondered where the Spey engines and engine spares went to from the RAF F-4M FGR.2 Phantom fleet?

90 Speys Mk202s were sold to China for use in their Air Force and Navy Xian JH-7/JH-7A Flounder fighter bomber fleet.

From the e-disposals document that used to be online.

'Spey Mk202 Engines. The contract to supply 90 Spey Mk 202 engines to an overseas customer, which started in 2000, was successfully completed on schedule in June 2001. The engines, which were sold through Rolls Royce plc and also included a large package of ex-RAF spares supplied by Military Aircraft Spares Limited, were originally fitted to the RAF’s Phantom aircraft until they were retired from service.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_JH-7

China also licence produced the Spey Mk202 as the WS-9 Qinling.

FNJhKjmyoCg

[tornadoken]

RAF Requirement for Canberra Replacement was issued 9/57. RR schemed RB.140, then derived RB.141/142 Medway. Bristol Olympus won TSR.2, but Medway was design baseline for DH bid for BEAC's medium haul Reqt, until they reduced its size. RR scaled down, 14,000lb to 10,000 as Spey, ordered for DH.121 Trident, 1/3/58. Medway continued to be schemed in parallel and was design baseline for Boeing 727, mid-59 almost to its 30/11/60 launch. Spey/BAC-111 followed, launched by Laker, 5/61. Medway continued to be offered, selected for RAF HS681 V/STOL transport, 9/63 till cancellation 2/65. SAAB had chosen it for Viggen, but then moved to P&W JT8D.

RN had been lumbered with P.1154, 18/2/63 with single BS.100, common with RAF: what RN had decided they wanted, as early as 1960, was reheated Spey-in-F-4B. Not J79 because Phantoms would first be deployed on Ark Royal, Eagle and Victorious (eventually on aspirant CVA-01/03). The calculation was the bolter case, where half-second slam reheat response was seen as available on Spey, not on J79.(RN had secured dry Spey, ordered for Buccaneer S.2, 1/62). RN was allowed to buy F-4K/Spey and quit P.1154, 2/64.

When P.1154(RAF) was cancelled 2/65, RAF wanted straight F-4D/J79. Roy Jenkins, Minister of Aviation, knowing TSR.2 was also for the chop (4/65), persuaded Ministers that something must be preserved for UK industry: Spey-for-RAF F-4M was agreed (as was to be Harrier, which RAF had not then wanted; so was MR Comet-with dry Spey: Nimrod). As offset for F-111K, US DoD put Spey as TF-41 into later A-7s; many other applications followed (inc. a licence to Xian Red Flag, 12/75 for Harbin H-7).

In 1966 RR was cascading Speys, whereas Bristol Siddeley was scratching for business, making a JV with P&W to join JT9D: that would threaten RB211 so RR bought BSEL and killed UK-in-JT9D. They could not have afforded that without Spey business.

[ICT_SLB]

General Electric CF/TF34? (Bombardier Challengers/A-10s & S-3s)

Yes, we once did a proposal for the US Navy essentially changing out the Civilian CF on a Challenger 601 for a Military TF-34 as the S-3 version, at least, has an additional Generator pad. Very useful when you're looking for all the Electrical power you can get for your "Systems Trainer" aka Jammer Bird.
BTW I'm not sure there's much commonality between the Olympus 593B in Concorde and previous Military but lower thrust versions.

[Dr Jekyll]

I've always understood that the Spey was chosen solely to give UK manufacturing input and it did adversely affect performance - "lots of money for a worse aeroplane."
However I've recently read that without the Spey - or more accurately, with the original engines - we couldn't have used it on our carriers.
This goes against the accepted story but if it's true why isn't it better known?

Bear in mind - "I know nothing" - it's only something I read somewhere fairly recently.

I've heard that as well, and also that McDonnell Douglas hoped at one time to sell Spey Phantoms to the US navy for operation from Essex class carriers.

[kenparry]

BTW I'm not sure there's much commonality between the Olympus 593B in Concorde and previous Military but lower thrust versions.

That's correct. The Concorde engine was the Olympus 593B; I believe the "B" was for Big, and it followed the 593D, where "D" was for "development". the B had a larger diameter than the D, and both were bigger than the 22R ("R" for reheat) which was the TSR2 variant.

After the cancellation of TSR2 there had been a suggestion that the aircraft could be used for developing the Concorde engine - but that was too big to fit.

[Argonautical]

Just a heads up. The database section of July's "The Aeroplane" features the Spey engined Phantom.

[DHfan]

A brief scan before I read it properly when i get back from a few days away seems to suggest that the naval version was a necessary mod, although not as successful as anticipated, and the RAF version was solely to get UK content so was effectively more expensive and a worse aeroplane.

[howiehowie93]

Succinctly put....and accurate as was the post that preceded yours.

A stand was as much a hindrance as a help to be frank. The Spey was designed by Rolls with the blissful illusion all maintenance would be carried out in a warm well lit bay in Derby. I know a few people who were involved with the development and testing of the heap of junk, one in particular with the above mentioned unit, and as he diplomatically concedes, RR couldn't be entirely to blame for supplier's design, ahem, "concept ".

Going off on a slight tangent here:

on the RB199, the Dry FCU was a nightmare to change on an Engine installed in the Left Hand Slot. A pipe had to come off that was impossible to get to at the forward end , as the fire wall was in the way, so we just used to "bend it slightly" out of the way. Did that for about ten years on Tornado Sqns.

Fast Forward to my last tour in the the RAF at the RAF Marham Engine Bay: A team from RR arrived to have a look at some ongoing engine faults and one of the issues they were looking into was the fairly frequent cracking of the aforementioned pipe. They had a look on the Engine I was working on and made some comments about easy access (hardly surprising with it on the maintenance stand). So my diplomatic self asked them if they'd ever seen one of these installed in a Tonka and then see how "Easy" it was to access ??

Turns out none of them ever had ! so they were dispatched over the road to ASF to have a look.

[hunterboy]

My BAC1-11 story... as a young keen First Officer , I remember glancing around the cockpit passing 10,000 feet in the climb to notice the start levers (HP cocks) still in the start detent. After my initial horror, my next thought was to who had started the engines. Wasn’t me , thank goodness. Next was how to mention it to the ex Concorde skygod sat next to me .....��