Pilots Losing Basic Flying Skills

[Sunfish]

I never had them in the first place......

While advanced autopilots and computers are now considered an integral part of any modern jetliner, many pilots worry that the systems are detracting from developing and maintaining their own abilities.

"We’ve been talking about this in the industry for years. Pilots are losing their basic flying skills and there’s an overreliance on automation," said Les Westbrooks, an associate professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, after the latest 737 Max crash, an Ethiopian Airlines flight in March.





https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/05/25/boeing-737-max-8-autopilot-automation-pilots-skills-flying-hours-safety/1219147001/

I did learn to tap the ribbon gauges in the Tobago. Does that count?

[Judd]

many pilots worry that the systems are detracting from developing and maintaining their own abilities.

I don't think it is the systems as such, that are detracting from developing and maintaining hands-on piloting skills, as much as the company managers and flight operations inspectors of the regulators. It also doesn't help when the legal fraternity are ready to swoop if there is a buck in it.
Finally, throw in the culture question where some operators have a punishment ethos to the slightest perceived infringement of a company SOP, then is it any wonder pilots steer clear of trying to keep up their handling skills and stick to the automatics from lift-off to touchdown.

[machtuk]

I don't think it is the systems as such, that are detracting from developing and maintaining hands-on piloting skills, as much as the company managers and flight operations inspectors of the regulators. It also doesn't help when the legal fraternity are ready to swoop if there is a buck in it.
Finally, throw in the culture question where some operators have a punishment ethos to the slightest perceived infringement of a company SOP, then is it any wonder pilots steer clear of trying to keep up their handling skills and stick to the automatics from lift-off to touchdown.

'judd' that about sums it up perfectly! The so called feel good "Just Culture" the Airlines love to feel comfy about is just a smoke screen to screw the pilots!
I try to encourage my F/O's to hand fly in low workload conditions but am forever aware that it's my license on the line when they do! Anytime when any F/O is hand flying the skipper has to be even more alert & his/her workload can be much higher, hence hand flying isn't that common I reckon.

[john_tullamarine]

... and, yet, 30 years and more ago, on the jets of the time, folks of such persuasion would hand fly the entire leg without letting the J-B stuff get a look-in. Anything under about 90 minutes sector time would be hand flown for this chap. If the meal were a good one, perhaps the autopilot might get a few minutes for the meal break.

No-one ever seemed to complain or be too concerned about the workload. Then again, the AN/TN philosophy of the day was to overtrain the flight crews so, perhaps, that may have had an influence on the level of relaxation with workload ? I recall one captain's comment on the subject of captain's observation capabilities - "I'm not allowed to make mistakes" and that pretty well summed up the AN attitude. Everyone set out to do a high bar routine each and every flight.

When the 733 came in at AN, the then Flight Captain (or was it Fleet Captain ? - too long ago, now) - TW - took the view that pilots could emphasise hand flying or the autos during line flight - providing that they maintained competence in both and could use either appropriately and adequately on checks.

[anchorhold]

It is one thing to lose your flying skills through automation, but my concern is that when pilots start their airline careers these days do they have the basic skills. Historically an considerable number of pilots would have 1500 hrs gained through the military, instructing, air taxi work. etc.. We now have co pilots in airlines who are not even qualified to fly a Cessna 152 and not encouraged to learn to fly aerobatics or steep turns in their basic training.

[machtuk]

It is one thing to lose your flying skills through automation, but my concern is that when pilots start their airline careers these days do they have the basic skills. Historically an considerable number of pilots would have 1500 hrs gained through the military, instructing, air taxi work. etc.. We now have co pilots in airlines who are not even qualified to fly a Cessna 152 and not encouraged to learn to fly aerobatics or steep turns in their basic training.


Yes you are adding another dimension to the already deteriorating hand manipulation skills, the lack of same in the first place!
Future pilots will be retagged " systems managers" there will be no need for any manual handling besides the very basics, welcome to what is fast becoming an industry where the skill set will shift entirely for good or bad!

[cattletruck]

But alas the modern flying contraption is no longer what it used to be.
Gone are the cables and connecting rods mated directly to a control surface and replaced with a stick that sends an electronic request to a computer which needs to be convinced to move a control surface or two.
Just like a modern car with its computers for traction, stability, emergency stopping, lane changing, parking, etc, these cars are brainless to drive with the intention of taking the driver out of the control equation completely.
A computer brings more efficiencies, especially so when a certain critical mass is reached and levels of optimisation beyond human capability become possible.

Reminds me of a story recently relayed to me about a HR system wrongfully terminating an employee. It was much easier for the company to have the employee terminated and re-employed than stop the HR software doing its thing.

I did learn to tap the ribbon gauges in the Tobago. Does that count?
I learnt something similar on a Chieftain at age 15 watching someone more experienced than I start it up.

[Sunfish]

We have a saying in yachting: “if you can sail a little boat, you can sail a big one”. Meaning you develop instinctive understanding of what the boat is telling you. In practice, I’ve seen many big boat skippers who despite intellect and all the bells and whistles are always half a second or more behind the boat.

[Global Aviator]

It’s also if one wants to keep ones hand in. Some of us are aviation tragics and enjoy it outside of the job. I love to jump in a lightly every now and then, love heading to Oshkosh (will again).

In the Sim if time on a recurrent love having a crack at something to the limits that don’t see often, even a max crosswind landing.

To a degree it’s up the individual.....

Some will say what’s flying a lighty got to do with a bus, boring or new corporate? As sunny said, if ya can drive a little one then when ****e hits the fan in the big one.....

[megan]

I did learn to tap the ribbon gauges in the Tobago. Does that count?Two high time aviators in the sim with round gauges. One needle doesn't move and the instructor asks "What's the problem?". Two crew scratch their heads reviewing systems, possible failure paths etc and unable to come up with an answer. "What would you do on the line?" instructor asks. Still no answer. "Tap the dial, it's a stuck needle" says he. A lesson in not over thinking.

[Judd]

quote] To a degree it’s up the individual [/quote]
Too true. I was cruising in a 737 Classic at 31,000 ft somewhere Germany and Greece. It was a beautiful day and I decided to practice tracking the VOR on flight plan route instead of VNAV and LNAV. Told the young 250 hour German first officer that was I disconnecting the autothrottle, autopilot and flight director and keep my hand in tracking the VOR's.
He looked at me completely disbelievingly and announced "In that case I will don my shoulder harness." Words failed me.

[LeadSled]

quote] To a degree it’s up the individual
Too true. I was cruising in a 737 Classic at 31,000 ft somewhere Germany and Greece. It was a beautiful day and I decided to practice tracking the VOR on flight plan route instead of VNAV and LNAV. Told the young 250 hour German first officer that was I disconnecting the autothrottle, autopilot and flight director and keep my hand in tracking the VOR's.
He looked at me completely disbelievingly and announced "In that case I will don my shoulder harness." Words failed me.

Judd,
Does not surprise me in the least.
Some time ago, old mate (AU) working for a subsidiary of Lufthansa, not only did as above, but, horror of horrors, flew a dreaded "Visual Approach", on a gin clear day down in the Med.
Result, dobbed in by the F/O, and "tea and biccies" with the fleet manager ---- and the very clear message that such free wheeling "Australian" behavior would not be tolterrated.
This from the airline that (long time ago) went off the end of 07 in YSSY, doing a couple approach and autoland in a DC-10 ---- and it was an inaugural, the publicity on the evening news was extensive, but not quite what Lufthansa had hoped for.
Tootle pip!!

[machtuk]

quote] To a degree it’s up the individual
Too true. I was cruising in a 737 Classic at 31,000 ft somewhere Germany and Greece. It was a beautiful day and I decided to practice tracking the VOR on flight plan route instead of VNAV and LNAV. Told the young 250 hour German first officer that was I disconnecting the autothrottle, autopilot and flight director and keep my hand in tracking the VOR's.
He looked at me completely disbelievingly and announced "In that case I will don my shoulder harness." Words failed me.[/QUOTE]

Not surprising, bet there are a lot of stories like that! Some years ago as an F/O on the 'bus' I wanted to do a full App flying manually in clear skies, turned it all off, the Capt sat bolt upright, looked absolutely mortified....I loved it watching the idiot squirm in his seat:-)

[wishiwasupthere]

I loved it watching the idiot squirm

Sounds like you’d be a hoot to fly with!

[ShyTorque]

I was waiting to take off at Kai Tak when an airline pilot about to fly the IGS approach to R13 suddenly announced "I'm not declaring an emergency just yet, but we cannot get the autopilot to couple". He sounded very scared that he might have to fly the approach himself, rather than the autopilot doing it.

That was a few years ago, but I thought it was a one off. These days - possibly not!

[machtuk]

Sounds like you’d be a hoot to fly with!

you missed the point!

[lucille]

Modern autopilots are very smooth. While you may think you’re doing a great job keeping the needles centred, the passengers in the back won’t thank you. Admittedly, FBW does help disguise coarse inputs - which begs the question .. are you really hand flying?. And definitely, if the AT is engaged, then you’re not really hand flying.

Hand flying smoothly with precision for more than a few minutes in the higher flight levels is all but impossible.

Every design iteration brings us ever closer to being mere safety observers in a UAV, with the only physical pilot input being the taxing of the aircraft. Thus, stick and rudder skills are becoming less relevant with each “Next Gen” aircraft.This is not a career I’d want to be in if I was a 20 year old today. Probably have to wear a high vis jacket in the cockpit in 30 years time. ;)

[BusyB]

I'd love to know which A/C can fly the IGS in HKG with an A/P.!!!!!!!

[josephfeatherweight]

Crikey, there's some impressive willies being waved about 'round 'ere!

[dr dre]

you missed the point!


No I don’t think he did. Regardless if you are a Captain or an F/O getting enjoyment from deliberately making the other pilot uncomfortable is a horrible character trait.

For every story of “I made another pilot uncomfortable by hand flying a visual approach on a CAVOK day” I’ve heard a story of “one pilot wanted to hand fly in poor weather in a high traffic environment and overloaded the support pilot in return”.

Crikey, there's some impressive willies being waved about 'round 'ere!

Indeed. And some wonder why Australians overseas have earned the nickname “Austro-nauts”. Some European airlines operate far more aircraft to far more ports in a higher traffic density environment and have to contend with a real winter with snow and ice. Ryanair operates in this environment with more aircraft than all Australian airlines have combined and put 200hr pilots in the RHS, and upgrade them to Captain after 4/5 years. They’ve never lost a jet to pilot error. You’d think they know something about operating airliners without the “Austro-nauts” needing to teach them how to fly.

[john_tullamarine]

Hand flying smoothly with precision for more than a few minutes in the higher flight levels is all but impossible.

How strange. Used not to be a problem 30 years ago ... but one does have to be in practice, of course. A half decent manipulative pilot, in current practice, can pole the aircraft with more than respectable smoothness.

[Sunfish]

They haven’t lost an aircraft until they do.

[dr dre]

They haven’t lost an aircraft until they do.

And they same could be said for the Austronaut “real pilots”. We have come pretty close in this country and it’s only really luck, not supposedly superior skills that have saved us.

I wonder if anyone is willing to point out the rate of airliner crashes was much higher back in the days of “never used the A/P real pilots”, and has come down markedly in the days of these “autopilot babysitters”.

Last time I checked the same hand flying stick and rudder skills are needed to land a jet in a gusting crosswind off a turbulent approach in 2019 as they were in 1979, so today’s generation of “autopilot babysitters” must still have something up their sleeve.

[ADawg]

Ironic really that in the modern era of automation airlines still require the sim evaluation (without the use of all the toys)

[Tankengine]

Ironic really that in the modern era of automation airlines still require the sim evaluation (without the use of all the toys)
Maybe they are smarter than they know! ;)

[Compylot]

Australia was in a very lucky position to have Airlines such as Ansett with it's unique philosophies, influence, capabilities and high operating standards that inspired and taught generations of Aussie Aviators.

Alas, now as each year passes more of those Ilk retire and our industry is poorer for their absence.

Perhaps in years to come the internet and threads like these will be our only reminders of the golden years of manual flying?

[Sunfish]

Was it a TN or AN DC9 skipper who allegedly used to have his FO taxi out at YMML while he was dropping cigarette ash out his LH window while he studied the racing form? Once lined up, so the story goes, he would throw his cigarette butt out the window, fold his racing guide, button up, take over and head for Sydney.

[Judd]

Hand flying smoothly with precision for more than a few minutes in the higher flight levels is all but impossible
It should certainly not be impossible to a competent instrument rated pilot. After all, it wasn't all that long ago RAAF pilots flying fighters in the old days regularly flew in close formation in cloud at high altitudes with no automatics. The Canberra bomber was a single pilot aircraft that had no autopilot and regularly flew at 45,000 feet for four hours often in IMC and without the benefit of weather radar. Todays military pilots are taught to use all the whizz-bang automatics available yet their training still strongly accents manual flying skills which may be needed if the automatics are knocked out of action. I guess it all depends on your training and personal flying ability.

[lucille]

By higher FLs I’m talking about 450 and above. By precise, I’m talking about +/-50 ft. and +/- 5 degrees. Reduced damping requires a constant eagle eye on PFD and the smallest of control inputs. Gets old after 5 minutes.

[machtuk]

By higher FLs I’m talking about 450 and above. By precise, I’m talking about +/-50 ft. and +/- 5 degrees. Reduced damping requires a constant eagle eye on PFD and the smallest of control inputs. Gets old after 5 minutes.

I always fly up there FL430-490 (usually in a block) & have had a go at hand driving whilst not on radar & it's pretty much impossible to retain high accuracy for any length of time. I see no need for it unless of course George took a break then all bets are off for normal Ops anyway:-)

[LeadSled]

By higher FLs I’m talking about 450 and above. By precise, I’m talking about +/-50 ft. and +/- 5 degrees. Reduced damping requires a constant eagle eye on PFD and the smallest of control inputs. Gets old after 5 minutes.

lucille,
Re. this and your first post, are you serious??
Have you ever tried it??
And there was/is no FBW in a B707 of B747 ---- or any aircraft of that era.
Indeed, demonstrating you capability to do just what you seem to think is so difficult (for you, it may be) was once mandatory, and practice hand flying at high levels in cruise was encouraged --- because it kept your scan sharp.
I grant that long periods could be tiring --- after two colleagues and myself flew a B707 Singapore/Djakarta/Perth/Sydney one night with a u/s autopilot, we all slept very soundly after the necessary cleansing ale.

[Capt Fathom]

Flying is not that difficult! It’s not rocket science.

[mattyj]

It’s not ‘skills’ per se, it’s currency. If you want to do something well in the air then you need to practice it often.

[haughtney1]

There are indeed some impressive male members being waved about on this thread....Austronoughts notwithstanding, let us not forget that in days gone by there was no RVSM, a lot less traffic and of course Nav accuracy was measured in miles rather than meters...so let’s dispense with the BS shall we?
The degradation in manual handling skills is real, and we can lay the blame at the doorsteps of the safety managers, aircraft manufacturers and the bean counters.
I keep myself in regular practise but am forbidden from removing the FD and A/T, and yet recently I was required to operate a 77F from HKG to home base 8hrs distant with no operable A/T system. Amazingly some safety manager might say, it was no issue flying with manual thrust, who’d have thought?
Lets be realistic here, most of these policies are written by the non flying troglodytes who through a combination of envy, stupidity and pure inadequacy have collectively decided that they know more about aviation than the aviators....it’s up to you to stand up and reverse the trend.

[Global Aviator]

Flying is not that difficult! It’s not rocket science.

Awe those things hanging off the wings are kinda like rockets :) ...

Yes some interesting reading.

New gen or old new gen (ie A320) are no doubt why there are less incidents. However as we have repeatedly seen when ****e hits the fan... Growing up on the 6 pack (not physically unfortunately) I really do feel swings in some automatic muscle memory when needed. Even if the ole whizz bang glass has issues.

[AviatorDave]

...
Last time I checked the same hand flying stick and rudder skills are needed to land a jet in a gusting crosswind off a turbulent approach in 2019 as they were in 1979, so today’s generation of “autopilot babysitters” must still have something up their sleeve.


Usually, folks somehow manage a visual approach as soon as they are properly lined up with the runway on final.
In my experience, automation-dependent pilots are a lot more scared by the maneuvering it takes to get lined up with the runway. Judging the correct turn and descent rates and points in time without a FD seems nearly impossible for some.

[dr dre]

Usually, folks somehow manage a visual approach as soon as they are properly lined up with the runway on final.
In my experience, automation-dependent pilots are a lot more scared by the maneuvering it takes to get lined up with the runway. Judging the correct turn and descent rates and points in time without a FD seems nearly impossible for some.

It’s a matter of needs rather than “nice to haves”.

For instance in Australia at all airports apart from Sydney you’ll fly a STAR or an FMS generated profile right to final. Even Sydney will furnish you with a simple track miles to run to judge your profile and vector you onto final. Visual approaches are still be made on the track of a STAR or instrument approach. ATC isn’t in the habit of letting aircraft join downwind for circuit practice at major airports.

However when you’ve got winds gusting and shearing 25-40kts all the way down final in Mod/Sev turbulence and you need to put the aircraft in the TDZ on a shortish runway Autoland isn’t going to help you, you’ll need stick, rudder and thrust management skills to do it accurately. And it happens most of the time all around the world even in this “automation dependent” generation.

[neville_nobody]

Somewhat ironic that about 75% of this thread would get you demoted if you tried it on today. Imagine 787 captain turning off the autopilot at FL420 just to test out his scan rate! The safety department would go mental. The regulator would be calling for blood. Emails galore with the AIPs/CAO/CARs/Ops Manuals cut and pasted into them pointing out the myriad of laws broken....

In reality what needs to happen is the whole concept of Sim needs to be reinvented, and moved away from the 1960s mentality of testing the same stuff annually and into a real training environment. That however would require the regulator to move away from their box ticking bureaucratic mindset.

[deja vu]

Was it a TN or AN DC9 skipper who allegedly used to have his FO taxi out at YMML while he was dropping cigarette ash out his LH window while he studied the racing form? Once lined up, so the story goes, he would throw his cigarette butt out the window, fold his racing guide, button up, take over and head for Sydney.

Not a bad effort from the FO with no tiller, but a bit of asymmetric brake and thrust would do the tight turns I guess.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Todays military pilots are taught to use all the whizz-bang automatics available yet their training still strongly accents manual flying skills........

And this is exactly as it should be.......

[Icarus2001]

Ironic really that in the modern era of automation airlines still require the sim evaluation (without the use of all the toys)

Where do you get that idea? My company requires (in the OM) that crews will take full advantage of "the toys" to the appropriate level of automation for the situation.

[cessnapete]

Where do you get that idea? My company requires (in the OM) that crews will take full advantage of "the toys" to the appropriate level of automation for the situation.

A Big Airline in the Uk has SOPs that mandate full time Auto Thrust on all types except B744, at any time ,during route flying.
Manual handling is usually defined as manual control of flight path and speed. So on B777/787 all Airbus A320/380 varieties, no manual handling practice is allowed at all, except every 6 months in the Sim!

[machtuk]

The high cap RPT Airbus operator I used to fly for allowed us to hand fly under low work load and fair WX conditions below 10000', high work load environments required the use of A/P & A/T. For me I did numerous manual App's with it all off, was fun, kept me as a pilot not just a systems operator -:)

[deja vu]

In the early 1990's whilst inbound to HKG, (Kai Tak), I overheard a United 747 crossing the FIR boundary and be cleared to "TD and expect vectoring for the CC NDB approach to R13". The IGS was out for 3 days and R31 tailwind over limits. The CC NDB approach was a series of figure 8's to let down to a point where, if visual at the minima, the R13 lead in strobes were visible and a visual approach to the runway to follow. The United came back with a slow Texas drawl.." say what ma'am" ,, ATC explained what was involved but United made a request for " vectors to Taipei" explaining he had not done an NDB for over 20 years. All the way across the pacific to end up in Taiwan.

Loss of Basic skills???? been happening for awhile

[Bergerie1]

cessnapete, OMG,what has the world come to!!

[LeadSled]

In the early 1990's whilst inbound to HKG, (Kai Tak), I overheard a United 747 crossing the FIR boundary and be cleared to "TD and expect vectoring for the CC NDB approach to R13". The IGS was out for 3 days and R31 tailwind over limits. The CC NDB approach was a series of figure 8's to let down to a point where, if visual at the minima, the R13 lead in strobes were visible and a visual approach to the runway to follow. The United came back with a slow Texas drawl.." say what ma'am" ,, ATC explained what was involved but United made a request for " vectors to Taipei" explaining he had not done an NDB for over 20 years. All the way across the pacific to end up in Taiwan.

Loss of Basic skills???? been happening for awhile
Caution --- Thread drift --- at least in part.
I remember the Chung Chow (CC) NDB so well, and the full procedure would only be needed when the weather was foul, low ceiling and rain --- which is what caused the out of limits tail wind component on RW31.
Back to the thread --- as we have seen on a number of occasions in recent, manual flying ability has saved the day (including twice on QF A330) , so what should be the "company policy"?
To accept that the loss of an aircraft due to "modern" philosophies on "flight deck management" is a reasonable response in cost/benefit terms.
Finally, "company policy" that seeks to limit the authority of the pilot in command is ultra vires, (in every jurisdiction, in which I have worked, and that is quite a few) but sadly, the company ability to enforce such policies by firing a pilot is a compelling argument.
Tootle pip!!

[ADawg]

Where do you get that idea? My company requires (in the OM) that crews will take full advantage of "the toys" to the appropriate level of automation for the situation.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Sim eval for recruitment not for operating crew. My point was during recruitment, candidates are required to demonstrate their instrument flying skills via the sim yet many will rarely ever get to demonstrate this skill in everyday operations. I have heard sim trainers comment numerous times how an applicant could fly the aircraft far better than some of the guys on the line.
So....prove to us you have sufficient instrument technique (plus ability to learn) and once we put you in the pointy bit those wonderful skills you demonstrated will start to slowly rust away because you will be forced to use automation. It's sad to see hands-on piloting skills degrade over time.
Litigation has stuffed everything unfortunately.

[josephfeatherweight]

So....prove to us you have sufficient instrument technique (plus ability to learn) and once we put you in the pointy bit those wonderful skills you demonstrated will start to slowly rust away because you will be forced to use automation.
Absolutely...

[LeadSled]

Somewhat ironic that about 75% of this thread would get you demoted if you tried it on today. Imagine 787 captain turning off the autopilot at FL420 just to test out his scan rate! The safety department would go mental. The regulator would be calling for blood. Emails galore with the AIPs/CAO/CARs/Ops Manuals cut and pasted into them pointing out the myriad of laws broken.....


neville et al,
And the result ----- HCPT-wise, the result in this "automatic" day and age, is that pilot in-flight loss of control is top of the list, or No.2 on many regulator's lists of major threats to aviation risk minimization (aka air safety)
This was not the case in the "bad old days", when pilots could demonstrate their ability to hand -fly their aeroplane in every corner of the flight envelope.
See, among other places, FAA, NTSB and Flight Safety Foundation web sites.
Even Airbus (see A350 training syllabus and associated explanatory material) have finally realized pilots must be able to "fly the aeroplane".
Tootle pip!!