AFTA, Simtech, VA or any other school for APS MCC

[737fan]

Buon giorno
My last forum was closed and I even don't know why.
So I start a new one with a similar title but without that S.. name because they or people from them react weird.
I would like to give guidance and hints to those who want to do a APS MCC.
So in the game you have the schools in the title.
Would be good to have details for their APS programs
Thank you

[robingre991]

So what do you think? Is VA better than Simtech? I've read your last thread and highly appreciate some further info.
My friends recommend VA, but simtech looks professional and on their Facebook there is evidence for the success of their pilots.
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[737fan]

Wings alliance is offering the APS for 7500 GBP
I paid around 6400 Euro
VA is taking 6900 GBP
Pilots ATO takes 5500 Euro
What about Simtech and AFTA?

[parkfell]

Before you part with your hard earned cash, I would suggest that you visit the establishments on your shortlist.
A 30 minute "trial flight" in the simulator should invariably be part of the conducted tour.

Ask about how successful their customers have been in securing that all important first job. Personnal recommendations from trusted friends always goes a long way in the decision making process.

Besides Facebook, LinkedIn is another source of valuable research.

The bottom line is that you are the customer.........spend your money wisely

[Reverserbucket]

Tried contacting VA but they never followed up unfortunately. I guess they are just too busy?

[virtualaviation]

Tried contacting VA but they never followed up unfortunately. I guess they are just too busy?

We are busy, but certainly never too busy to reply!

Very sorry about that error on our part if you didn't get a follow-up. Will send you a private message now, and please do contact us again.

[Trevi85]

Do you know Spanish flight schools with aps?

[travis.karl]

We are busy, but certainly never too busy to reply!

Very sorry about that error on our part if you didn't get a follow-up. Will send you a private message now, and please do contact us again.
Hi VA.
What's your price for the APS MCC? Just curious

[KT1988]

@travis.karl: On their website its written: £6,900 inc VAT (£5,750 ex VAT) so its 6.900 or 5.750 if you have a company related to flying. I believe it can also be deducted if you are not from UK just have an EU company and also written off from tax as a cost of getting the necessary ratings to perform your job.

@virtualaviation: May I ask if there is some kind of assessment or can I just join when I am done with my ratings at the flight school? I like your program best when looking at website information but I would like to ask if you have some contacts with Ryanair or planning to be officially approved like sky4u or AFTA ? Do you have any contact or students who got a job with other airlines for example: Wizz Air, LOT Polish Airlines, Enter Air, Sprint Air, Travel Service (those airlines got bases in Poland, maybe Easyjet will also have bases in Poland) ?

[737fan]

@travis.karl: On their website its written: £6,900 inc VAT (£5,750 ex VAT) so its 6.900 or 5.750 if you have a company related to flying. I believe it can also be deducted if you are not from UK just have an EU company and also written off from tax as a cost of getting the necessary ratings to perform your job.

@virtualaviation: May I ask if there is some kind of assessment or can I just join when I am done with my ratings at the flight school? I like your program best when looking at website information but I would like to ask if you have some contacts with Ryanair or planning to be officially approved like sky4u or AFTA ? Do you have any contact or students who got a job with other airlines for example: Wizz Air, LOT Polish Airlines, Enter Air, Sprint Air, Travel Service (those airlines got bases in Poland, maybe Easyjet will also have bases in Poland) ?
​​​​​​I wrote down the price above. But it's good to provide once more. Does anybody have the price for Simtech?

[travis.karl]

@travis.karl: On their website its written: £6,900 inc VAT (£5,750 ex VAT) so its 6.900 or 5.750 if you have a company related to flying. I believe it can also be deducted if you are not from UK just have an EU company and also written off from tax as a cost of getting the necessary ratings to perform your job.

@virtualaviation: May I ask if there is some kind of assessment or can I just join when I am done with my ratings at the flight school? I like your program best when looking at website information but I would like to ask if you have some contacts with Ryanair or planning to be officially approved like sky4u or AFTA ? Do you have any contact or students who got a job with other airlines for example: Wizz Air, LOT Polish Airlines, Enter Air, Sprint Air, Travel Service (those airlines got bases in Poland, maybe Easyjet will also have bases in Poland) ?
Thank you. I was blind. It seems that RYR will have more partners soon. And maybe they kick out another present partner. Who knows.
​​​​​​APS students from Simtech and VA are taken by RYR too. So it's simply that they prefer APS students.
But still it's a lot of money that you need to pay for something that is normally not needed and covered by an airline. Too expensive. And no guarantee.

[parkfell]

T.K

What you must remember is that the more time you spent in the simulator before your interview/sim ride, the greater chance you have of being successful. Equally important is the device you learn on. If you aspire to say Ryanair then clearly a B737-800 training device is the obvious choice. If however you set your sights on a turbo-prop, then the choice of device is not critical.

APS in essence means that the JOC element which historically was and remains unregulated, has now been approved and is part of the MCC course, now renamed APS.
The reputable provider offered a MCC/JOC course. With some minor modifications that is now an APS course.

Depending where you go, a current MCC/JOC course may well be the same standard and quality as the APS course.

I suspect the issue with Ryanair was that they had a number of candidates who simply had got overwhelmed on the sim ride, wasting both their time and that of the assessors. Hence their preference for those who have reached a certain defined standards prior to assessment.

Expensive it may be, but money well spent if you are successful. The cheaper the option, then potentially a greater risk of failure, and 'money down the drain'.

Training is an investment. There are no quick fixes. Think QUALITY every time.

[2unlimited]

I am sorry I strongly disagree with these overpriced programs. They will not prepare you for an airline assessment for various reasons:
1. You don't know what type you will be checked on. (A320, 737, Embraer or other)

2. The date you do such a course can be months or even years before you get a real chance, unless practiced regularly it will give you little help by the time you finally have an assessment.

3. As a Cadet they will not be assessing you for failures etc. If you are non type rated they will check your general flying / handling skills. The HR interview will in 90% of the cases by equally as important as the sim.

4. MCC is the regulatory requirement, get the one that is "cheapest" possible, save your money until you know you have an interview / assessment. Then book Sim with instructor, same type as assessment. Most sim profiles for assessment for companies like RyR, Wizz, Ezy, BA and more, are available, and you book one or more Sim sessions shortly before your assessment date, and practice exactly what you will be expected to perform in your assessment.

5. No airline will give if you have some Certificate from either of these places, equally from places like Oxford etc., you doing a MCC course spending a few thousands, while they have integrated cadets spending over 100.000 Euros, will not count for the same from the FTO if they do have a connection with airlines.

EASA requires you have a MCC only, some airlines asks for a JOC, again if you do have to do it, do it as cheap as possible, as this has very little value when applying for a job, besides that you have to have it on your CV.

Rather spend 1000 - 1500 Euro on a Sim when you have an assessment, save your money until then.

[parkfell]

I am sorry I strongly disagree with these overpriced programs. They will not prepare you for an airline assessment for various reasons:
1. You don't know what type you will be checked on. (A320, 737, Embraer or other)

2. The date you do such a course can be months or even years before you get a real chance, unless practiced regularly it will give you little help by the time you finally have an assessment.

3. As a Cadet they will not be assessing you for failures etc. If you are non type rated they will check your general flying / handling skills. The HR interview will in 90% of the cases by equally as important as the sim.

4. MCC is the regulatory requirement, get the one that is "cheapest" possible, save your money until you know you have an interview / assessment. Then book Sim with instructor, same type as assessment. Most sim profiles for assessment for companies like RyR, Wizz, Ezy, BA and more, are available, and you book one or more Sim sessions shortly before your assessment date, and practice exactly what you will be expected to perform in your assessment.

5. No airline will give if you have some Certificate from either of these places, equally from places like Oxford etc., you doing a MCC course spending a few thousands, while they have integrated cadets spending over 100.000 Euros, will not count for the same from the FTO if they do have a connection with airlines.

EASA requires you have a MCC only, some airlines asks for a JOC, again if you do have to do it, do it as cheap as possible, as this has very little value when applying for a job, besides that you have to have it on your CV.

Rather spend 1000 - 1500 Euro on a Sim when you have an assessment, save your money until then.

1. Irrespective of what device is used, you need to be competent at RAW DATA flying, and if light ac is your background then the power/pitch couple together with interia are new the ingredients which require training & practice.
Botton line, set the attitude, set the thrust & TRIM. THEN hold trim check adjust......

2. Whilst the market is buoyant Junior birdmen are being invited for interview / sim ride within weeks of completing the MCC. You actually hear of them attempting the process BEFORE or during the MCC course. NOT RECOMMENDED

3. Not entirely true. Smoke in the cabin as an emergency has been known for non typed pilots. Good CRM is vital. Competent skills in both seats as PF & PM critical. If you cannot operate as a crew member, the HR part will be irrelevant.

4. This would be a valid statement, provided you are competent in the first place.

5. Where you train is irrelevant if you cannot fly for toffee. Integrated courses never guarantees success. You need to be competent irrespective of your background.

If there is a gap of more than 28 days between completing the course and the sim ride then a "top up" sim practice needs to be considered.

[travis.karl]

T.K

What you must remember is that the more time you spent in the simulator before your interview/sim ride, the greater chance you have of being successful. Equally important is the device you learn on. If you aspire to say Ryanair then clearly a B737-800 training device is the obvious choice. If however you set your sights on a turbo-prop, then the choice of device is not critical.

APS in essence means that the JOC element which historically was and remains unregulated, has now been approved and is part of the MCC course, now renamed APS.
The reputable provider offered a MCC/JOC course. With some minor modifications that is now an APS course.

Depending where you go, a current MCC/JOC course may well be the same standard and quality as the APS course.

I suspect the issue with Ryanair was that they had a number of candidates who simply had got overwhelmed on the sim ride, wasting both their time and that of the assessors. Hence their preference for those who have reached a certain defined standards prior to assessment.

Expensive it may be, but money well spent if you are successful. The cheaper the option, then potentially a greater risk of failure, and 'money down the drain'.

Training is an investment. There are no quick fixes. Think QUALITY every time.
Regarding quality I agree with you. But regarding necessity I agree with 2unlimited.
The APS is completely unnecessary. Rather spend your money with a good MCC on a FFS. And you still pay less than for an APS.
For a standard MCC which one from UK/Ireland so you recommend?
In Germany Cockpit4u, TFC Kaeufer and RWL are the biggest schools with the highest standards.
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[Lotta777]

Regarding quality I agree with you. But regarding necessity I agree with 2unlimited.
The APS is completely unnecessary. Rather spend your money with a good MCC on a FFS. And you still pay less than for an APS.
For a standard MCC which one from UK/Ireland so you recommend?
In Germany Cockpit4u, TFC Kaeufer and RWL are the biggest schools with the highest standards.
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I was at RWL for my std. MCC. Now I'm flying in Asia with base HK. It worked out then, why shouldn't it now?

[2unlimited]

1. Irrespective of what device is used, you need to be competent at RAW DATA flying, and if light ac is your background then the power/pitch couple together with interia are new the ingredients which require training & practice.
Botton line, set the attitude, set the thrust & TRIM. THEN hold trim check adjust......

2. Whilst the market is buoyant Junior birdmen are being invited for interview / sim ride within weeks of completing the MCC. You actually hear of them attempting the process BEFORE or during the MCC course. NOT RECOMMENDED

3. Not entirely true. Smoke in the cabin as an emergency has been known for non typed pilots. Good CRM is vital. Competent skills in both seats as PF & PM critical. If you cannot operate as a crew member, the HR part will be irrelevant.

4. This would be a valid statement, provided you are competent in the first place.

5. Where you train is irrelevant if you cannot fly for toffee. Integrated courses never guarantees success. You need to be competent irrespective of your background.

If there is a gap of more than 28 days between completing the course and the sim ride then a "top up" sim practice needs to be considered.




1. Handling between 737 and A320 are completely different. Example one has a stick, other a yoke, one you need to trim, the other has auto trim.
If you done one or the other, it will only confuse you to criss cross between the two.
Boeing is a cluttered piece of junk from the 60's, while Airbus slightly newer flying computer.

2. The market is not that buoyant for inexperienced cadets, there is a high failure rate, as there are so many cadets to choose from. Whenever companies like RyR opens up recruitment, they normally have several thousand applications, of those they will only hire 20 - 30 at a time.
Now also loads of experienced pilots looking for jobs after Monarch, WoW, Air Berlin and other companies gone bust. Many companies are now taking these experienced guys first, as it helps them ease up on their training department.

3. Sure basic skills of CRM you get during your MCC, basic skills is what is needed. They don't expect that you are a complete pilot when you join as a cadet, because they want to teach you from scratch, to make sure you don't have any bad habits that you might have picked up during your initial training.
Most airlines now want you shaped into their ethos of how to operate. Their SOP's and their way of thinking.
Getting smoke etc. are very complex drills, and if given during an assessment for a Cadet, then this I fell is grossly unfair and wrong, and has nothing to do in an assessment of non TR cadet. Unless he has experience on other type I would not expect to see this given.

Without a good HR interview, you won't even get the time in the Sim by the company.

4. With good preparation and 1 or 2 Sim sessions in a FFS on same type as will be used for assessment, you should be more then enough ready, any competent trainer that knows the Sim drills that are used, can get this done nicely over a 4 hours sim session, with brief and debrief. Of course some self study in advance is required. To prepare yourself for the profiles required.

5. My point with the integrated courses is that many of them already have agreements with airlines, and the Cadets from this group will always have priority with regards to job placement ahead of anyone doing some advanced MCC/JOC course.

As I mention, anyone can get interview with Ryanair, even without these packages, of course if you do get interview/sim, you should prepare properly, that's when you need you Sim time.

[uncle dickie]

If you knew for certain that your sim ride was on the Airbus, then choosing the Bus for the MCC is fine.
You might be a tagged student for say EZY then MCC on it makes sense.
Otherwise as a newly qualified CPL/IR hot from a DA42, still requires to gain basic skills which is best achieved using B737, aka “a cluttered piece of junk from the 60’s” as described by 2Unlimited
True the A320 will be easier to fly. But that is not what you want just yet. YOU NEED TO GAIN THE BASIC SKILLS FIRST and not take the easier option just yet with auto trim etc.

Do not waste your money on a FFS. A fixed based sim is better as this stage, as you get no sensation to help you, and therefore must rely solely on your ability to scan.

If you can demonstrate basic handling skills, with good CRM you will be successful.

[robingre991]

uncle dickie;

Thank you for the input. I'm looking for a school to do my MCC or APS but haven't decided yet. Reading some reports here and there are a lot of pros and cons for each. My budget limits me but I want to invest in the best way. Because you find more A320 in Europe I think it will be on that one. I'm not looking for Ryan more for easy or Brussels. What do you think? And they only require a standard MCC.

[737fan]

uncle dickie;

Thank you for the input. I'm looking for a school to do my MCC or APS but haven't decided yet. Reading some reports here and there are a lot of pros and cons for each. My budget limits me but I want to invest in the best way. Because you find more A320 in Europe I think it will be on that one. I'm not looking for Ryan more for easy or Brussels. What do you think? And they only require a standard MCC.
The best schools for APS are mentioned here. I understand your concerns regarding the type. It was the same for me. If budget limits you go ahead and post it here. I'm sure you'll find a solution. I heard recently that VA is doing a real good job. For A320 you may ask somebody from Lufthansa or CAE.

[737fan]

uncle dickie;

Thank you for the input. I'm looking for a school to do my MCC or APS but haven't decided yet. Reading some reports here and there are a lot of pros and cons for each. My budget limits me but I want to invest in the best way. Because you find more A320 in Europe I think it will be on that one. I'm not looking for Ryan more for easy or Brussels. What do you think? And they only require a standard MCC.
Just found an offer for A320 based APS MCC in Hungary. Cost is 5499 Euro. School is Pilots ATO in Budapest. Could be interesting for you.

[Lotta777]

Just check their website. Can't post a link cuz I'm new here. Words to think about...

[travis.karl]

Hey there.
Usually I'm not doing this but have a look at this comment. It's about important facts to consider before you take an APS MCC.
https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/616273-sky4u-aps-mcc-ryanair-3.html#post10490456
Or visit CRM Europe's news section.

[robingre991]

Just found an offer for A320 based APS MCC in Hungary. Cost is 5499 Euro. School is Pilots ATO in Budapest. Could be interesting for you.
Merci beaucoup!
I will contact Pilots ATO. AFTA not replying. Maybe too many mail request. Decided against Sky4u although some friends recommended. Now some of my friends say if they knew before would go to another flight school.
Thanks here for your support.

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[travis.karl]

Merci beaucoup!
I will contact Pilots ATO. AFTA not replying. Maybe too many mail request. Decided against Sky4u although some friends recommended. Now some of my friends say if they knew before would go to another flight school.
Thanks here for your support.

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Dear robingre991,
please checkout some standard MCC providers too. TFC, RWL and Cockpit4u are good flight schools with a high number of school leavers finding a job in a relatively short time frame. All without an APS.

[Trevi85]

Result of my research is that we don't have any Spanish FS offering APS
But gossip is that it's in the planning. I think it will be with one major like FTE. Can't wait so long. I will visit VA and Simtech first. Then maybe Cockpit4u if I get a cheap ticket

[travis.karl]

Result of my research is that we don't have any Spanish FS offering APS
But gossip is that it's in the planning. I think it will be with one major like FTE. Can't wait so long. I will visit VA and Simtech first. Then maybe Cockpit4u if I get a cheap ticket
While the APS was hyped for several months it became clear by now that it didn't get the attention and the big numbers some schools hoped for. Standard MCC numbers at most traditional flight schools are steady and somewhat constant. That's what I heard. I'm happy that most students didn't run into this trap.
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[2unlimited]

While the APS was hyped for several months it became clear by now that it didn't get the attention and the big numbers some schools hoped for. Standard MCC numbers at most traditional flight schools are steady and somewhat constant. That's what I heard. I'm happy that most students didn't run into this trap.
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That is good to hear, as it's no doubt another "FTO scheme" to try to squeeze much extra thousands of EUROS out of students.
Having been in the position within the last 10 years looking for my first job, I can fully understand the frustration some feel when they have spent a small fortune completing their CPL/IR.

Equally I would advice someone who is in their mid / late 20's or early/mid 30's, that getting stuck into an airline straight away, might seem great at first, but specially in the LCC industry, many face burnout within 10 - 15 years, some even faster, and only option to continue working is going part time.

In the mind of someone applying for their first job, just desperate to fly, this might sound crazy as all they wish at this moment of time is to fly as much as possible, this notion will eventually change with most guys after they have been "abused" enough.

I am not wanting to deter people from a flying career, just telling it how it is. So enjoy flying when you can, chances with airlines does come for most sooner or later. It took me about 18 months from completing my training to get my first job. Some guys even faster, the frustration is great during that initial search, but it's easy to think another extra "Sim course" is going to make it easier, or solve the problem to get the job.

I will repeat what I have said before, save your money, use it wisely, when you get the interview with a specific airline, that's when it's time to splash the cash on sim session, to prepare for that specific airline.

[uncle dickie]

Result of my research is that we don't have any Spanish FS offering APS
But gossip is that it's in the planning. I think it will be with one major like FTE. Can't wait so long. I will visit VA and Simtech first. Then maybe Cockpit4u if I get a cheap ticket

FTE might be APS approved by the Spanish Regulator? And they have a new A320 FTD1 recently approved. Not cheap but quality training.

[737fan]

Many new cadets invited and passed RYR with MCC only, most of them no APS students. On other hand many APS students failed. That's what I heard from inside.

[parkfell]

Many new cadets invited and passed RYR with MCC only, most of them no APS students. On other hand many APS students failed. That's what I heard from inside.

If what you are saying is correct then it does raise some interesting questions:

1. Have you misheard what you were told? Was this just an off the cuff remark ~ a throw away line ? Just how close to the throne was your inside source? In essence, is this snippet actually true & the stats confirm it.

2. Taking your comment on face value, it cannot say much about the quality of certain providers who conduct APS?
Were those who attended APS courses, and failed Ryanair selection recognised by the providers as very marginal at best, and just scraped a PASS by the skin of their teeth?

3. A competent junior birdman attending a MCC or MCC/JOC at a quality provider will undoubtedly be successful. They do need to have been taught well during the light ac phrase. They then produce these basics skills during MCC viz. selecting an attitude and accurate trimming. It is as straightforward as that. The MCC then teaches the 2 crew skills for PF & PM.

If I had to express a view on the quotation, I would challenge the veracity of the statement. Half truths at best?

[MaverickPrime]

~50% of MCC holders fail their RYR assessment

~25% of APS MCC holders fail their RYR assessment

Not much more to say really.

[2unlimited]

~50% of MCC holders fail their RYR assessment

~25% of APS MCC holders fail their RYR assessment

Not much more to say really.

And whats the source for your stats?

I know before APS MCC the pass rate of MCC holders was 100%.

[parkfell]

And whats the source for your stats?

I know before APS MCC the pass rate of MCC holders was 100%.

And the source of your stats? How many in the sample? Period covered by your assertion?

It would be truly remarkable if 100% success rate occurred for any group.

It would be interesting to analyse the actual success rate of those who complete purely MCC 4/5, and those who complete a MCC/JOC course. The issue is that as the JOC element is not regulated, there are no mandatory elements.

Reputable providers however will be offering fairly similar courses covering the elements specified by EASA for APS.

The quote is most likely a wind up to provoke reaction. Porkies?

[RYRCadetRecruitment]

Good afternoon all,
We can confirm what MaverickPrime said about assessment stats.
This information is also available on our career page.
Our statistics show that over 50% of newly qualified pilots who hold a CPL, frozen ATPL theoretical exams, ME/IR and a standard MCC fail at the initial assessment.
Thank you

[pilotatlast]

I see Skyborne Airline Academy are offering APS MCC on their new B737 Max simulator at their base at Gloucestershire airport

[chafra]

Good afternoon all,
We can confirm what MaverickPrime said about assessment stats.
This information is also available on our career page.
Our statistics show that over 50% of newly qualified pilots who hold a CPL, frozen ATPL theoretical exams, ME/IR and a standard MCC fail at the initial assessment.
Thank you
Yeah, but there are more standard MCC pilots than APS MCC pilots. 50% of let's say 5000 is still 2500. Whereas 25% of 10 is 2,5, leaving 7,5 to pass. You don't tell these facts. It worked all the years with a simple MCC and some screening prep. Altogether for less money than 6,5k or more

[parkfell]

Good afternoon all,
We can confirm what MaverickPrime said about assessment stats.
This information is also available on our career page.
Our statistics show that over 50% of newly qualified pilots who hold a CPL, frozen ATPL theoretical exams, ME/IR and a standard MCC fail at the initial assessment.
Thank you

I see that Ryanair have approved Virtual Aviation to conduct their bespoke APS/MCC courses.
So the potential for a seamless transition from MCC to type rating for junior birdmen.

[Lotta777]

VA is high quality. I have many coworkers that have completed their training at VA. But I still don't get the point why APS is that much advertised
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[KT1988]

@parkfell: Did VA become Ryanair officaly approved APS MCC provider like AFTA and Sky4U ? That would be perfect since their offer for APS MCC looked most interesting.

I checked on their website it looks like a new program appeared like 2 days ago and its a Ryanair approved program, ofc. there is an extra assessment included to prepare for as bonus to the regular Ryanair assessment (that should be everything). Wonder if they made it relevant to flying like the later real assessment or if they created some DLR like stuff that does require a lot of lengthy preparation but is of no use in real flying. Hopefully they made it relevant to flying and someone will give some feedback about it before its my turn to apply.

[RYRCadetRecruitment]

Morning,
Yes, VA Airline Training has become Ryanair's official training partner.
Thank you

[Reverserbucket]

Which NAA approves VA? Is there an 'officially' approved APS course available yet?

[travis.karl]

The first approved APS MCC partner must have done a terrible job.
Congrats on losing your exclusivity, S... u
What about Simtech? Do they also jump on the train?
Still don't get it with APS. Only advantage I see is on operator's side to reduce TR or line training
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[parkfell]

The main advantage is using RYR SOPs during the MCC, making a smoother transitional on the type rating course.
Not having to "unlearn" certain techniques / calls. Quicker learning all round. No reduction in TR or LT. Just all round easier for all concerned.

[KT1988]

Well I believe the advantage is getting a guaranteed call from Ryanair for the final assessment plus learning a lot that will be useful later on if getting a job at Ryanair or at least at some other airline with 737-800 NG if not successful at the final Ryanair assessment. Plus at other airlines where there is a wide choice of aircraft that can be offered as for example at LOT Polish Airlines from the airline point of view it could be probably more useful to send the cadet on 737 TR than for example on Dash TR since the cadet is already prepared for 737. If someone does not aim at Ryanair they can still do the casual APS MCC at VA. I am very happy that I can now choose official Ryanair assessment not only at Sky4u and AFTA (no info about the course there).

What I wonder about is if its VA or Ryanair who decided/designed the extra assessment before APS MCC. Since there is no info about it on VA website. So I wonder if its something simple like the Ryanair online pre assessment or if its something extra that only candidates applying for VA APS MCC have to pass. Because it would not be fun if it was something like the German DLR where you have to use a lot of time to prepare things not relevant to flying (according to the thread describing the DLR).

[2unlimited]

KT1988 "it could be probably more useful to send the cadet on 737 TR than for example on Dash TR since the cadet is already prepared for 737."

It does not work like that. I did my MCC on a 737 ages ago, and have since never done anything in a 737. Before RYR used to charge 300 Euros for an assessment, now they probably take a much larger cut if they have agreed some deal with an APC MCC FTO.
Another sucker is born every minute, who is willing to spend silly money to try to secure themselves an interview.

[robingre991]

KT1988 "it could be probably more useful to send the cadet on 737 TR than for example on Dash TR since the cadet is already prepared for 737."

It does not work like that. I did my MCC on a 737 ages ago, and have since never done anything in a 737. Before RYR used to charge 300 Euros for an assessment, now they probably take a much larger cut if they have agreed some deal with an APC MCC FTO.
Another sucker is born every minute, who is willing to spend silly money to try to secure themselves an interview.
They still charge you for the screening. I think it's higher now like 400 euros or so.
And by the way I completed my MCC and I got an immediate call from Ryanair and Easyjet. Too funny. I'll decide for Easyjet of course. Ryanair is unreliable. First they partner with a dubious flight school and then they start cooperation with 2 other flight schools. Strange. If they change their mind so fast with their crews too it's not my company.
Good luck to you all
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[2unlimited]

They still charge you for the screening. I think it's higher now like 400 euros or so.
And by the way I completed my MCC and I got an immediate call from Ryanair and Easyjet. Too funny. I'll decide for Easyjet of course. Ryanair is unreliable. First they partner with a dubious flight school and then they start cooperation with 2 other flight schools. Strange. If they change their mind so fast with their crews too it's not my company.
Good luck to you all
​​​​​

I would say you have gone with the better of the 2 choices. So I assume you did not spend money on APS, but still got an assessment?

I have never heard of anyone not getting an assessment with Ryanair when they have applied, sure they might need to wait 2 - 3 months or maybe more, but paying an additional 5000 - 6000 Euros, to maybe guarantee you an interview, shows that something is wrong in the industry.
There was many years ago a course CTC used to run, if you passed the assessment you would do something similar an advanced MCC/JOC course, and you would be put in the hold pool for an airline. Basically it was a waiting list to start with the company, but of course nothing was guaranteed. But at least you had passed the primary selection when you commenced this course, not just waiting for an interview.

Normally 70 - 90% of the people who are interviewed don't even get to the Sim session, so by doing this APS, your focus is on the second part of the assessment, which you might not even reach if you can't perform during the interview and group work if they have this.

[parkfell]

I would say you have gone with the better of the 2 choices.
Normally 70 - 90% of the people who are interviewed don't even get to the Sim session, so by doing this APS, your focus is on the second part of the assessment, which you might not even reach if you can't perform during the interview and group work if they have this.

Which might explain why there are airline prep outfits which fine tune you for the interview and group exercise.

And for integrated courses there is plenty material on line to prepare for the aptitude testing etc. Anyone who cannot achieve an extremely high score on these haven't prepared well enough. It is turning into a hoop jumping exercise.

Cheaper to just hire those with a golf handicap of single figures, or some other team game (basket ball?) to demonstrate hand to eye coordination and team work?

[BoeingLudo737]

They still charge you for the screening. I think it's higher now like 400 euros or so.
And by the way I completed my MCC and I got an immediate call from Ryanair and Easyjet. Too funny. I'll decide for Easyjet of course. Ryanair is unreliable. First they partner with a dubious flight school and then they start cooperation with 2 other flight schools. Strange. If they change their mind so fast with their crews too it's not my company.
Good luck to you all
​​​​​

Easyjet never hire people with just an MCC, they make you do their AQC (Airline Qualification Course) or whatever it is called which is the equivalent of an APS MCC, Easyjet has various partner flight schools (CAE,L3, FTE) so I don't understand what the problem is with Ryanair having different partner flight schools. Your argument doesn't make much sense

[2unlimited]

Which might explain why there are airline prep outfits which fine tune you for the interview and group exercise.

And for integrated courses there is plenty material on line to prepare for the aptitude testing etc. Anyone who cannot achieve an extremely high score on these haven't prepared well enough. It is turning into a hoop jumping exercise.

Cheaper to just hire those with a golf handicap of single figures, or some other team game (basket ball?) to demonstrate hand to eye coordination and team work?
I agree regarding the airline Prep courses, they are useful, specially if they have updated information on procedures with airlines of interest.

It's better prepare specific for the airline in question when you have the assessment. Instead of dreaming of the 148.000 Euro a year Ryanair contract.

[portos8]

The Ryanair APS MCC with RYR partner schools or RYR mentored training schemes (AFTA) are so much more expensive than standard training without that they seem to provide an actual "direct" route into Ryanair. Is this simply extra profit generated for the flightschool, or does somehow RYR also benefit from this? What kind of percentages would a flightschool pay to RYR to use their name?

[BoeingLudo737]

I would say you have gone with the better of the 2 choices. So I assume you did not spend money on APS, but still got an assessment?

I have never heard of anyone not getting an assessment with Ryanair when they have applied, sure they might need to wait 2 - 3 months or maybe more, but paying an additional 5000 - 6000 Euros, to maybe guarantee you an interview, shows that something is wrong in the industry.
There was many years ago a course CTC used to run, if you passed the assessment you would do something similar an advanced MCC/JOC course, and you would be put in the hold pool for an airline. Basically it was a waiting list to start with the company, but of course nothing was guaranteed. But at least you had passed the primary selection when you commenced this course, not just waiting for an interview.

Normally 70 - 90% of the people who are interviewed don't even get to the Sim session, so by doing this APS, your focus is on the second part of the assessment, which you might not even reach if you can't perform during the interview and group work if they have this.

There is a pre-selection process to get into the Ryanair program as well

[737crew]

The Ryanair APS MCC with RYR partner schools or RYR mentored training schemes (AFTA) are so much more expensive than standard training without that they seem to provide an actual "direct" route into Ryanair. Is this simply extra profit generated for the flightschool, or does somehow RYR also benefit from this? What kind of percentages would a flightschool pay to RYR to use their name?
I had the opportunity to read the comments on EASA decision for APS MCC recently. There were many comments and recommendations given by Ryanair Training, so I guess it is like many said before: the APS was especially pushed by one major airline, Ryanair, to let the students pay for an additional part of their training. Simtech boss already gave a comment on this. Mainly low cost airlines try to use this sort of self sponsored extra but unnecessary training. And low cost flight schools more than willing to collect the breadcrumbs that Ryanair and easy throw in their front.
​​​

[Capt Pit Bull]

So much bull**** on this thread. The simple fact is APSMCC graduates are far better prepared for assessments and type rating. While Ryanair might have had a guiding hand in the regulation, many of the better MCC providers have offered enhanced versions for years.

The other key point is that the the APS has a test at the end of it, rather than just being an attendance course. I’ve trained hundreds of students on basic (20 hr) MCCs and I can tell you, we might have given them a certificate, (because they ‘completed’ the course), but only a few reached a point where I was confident they would pass a sim check. Many were awful including a percentage that I wouldn’t trust to sit the right way round on a lavatory let alone fly a transport category aircraft.

On an APS course there is a lot more scope to fix basic problems, and, if they cannot be fixed, then they will fail the APS assessment.

Simple fact is APSMCC holders have greater success rate at interview. You can bitch about the extra cost if you want, but as a percentage of your total spend it is small. If it gets you to a job a little bit quicker it pays for itself anyway.

Doing a basic MCC is a false economy.

[travis.karl]

The Ryanair APS MCC with RYR partner schools or RYR mentored training schemes (AFTA) are so much more expensive than standard training without that they seem to provide an actual "direct" route into Ryanair. Is this simply extra profit generated for the flightschool, or does somehow RYR also benefit from this? What kind of percentages would a flightschool pay to RYR to use their name?
That's my point right from the start of the APS. Fresh graduates should be aware of the fact that professional agencies get paid by some flight schools for advertising on social media like pprune etc. Recommendation schemes at FB are easy to manipulate. Just a matter of price.

[parkfell]

That's my point right from the start of the APS. Fresh graduates should be aware of the fact that professional agencies get paid by some flight schools for advertising on social media like pprune etc. Recommendation schemes at FB are easy to manipulate. Just a matter of price.

Just what is it you don't get. The better prepared you are, the greater the chance of success, irrespective of the wheels within wheels deals which may or may not have been arranged by the beancounters.

Why don't you re read my post #12 May 26@1103
i would be happy to clarify anything which remains unclear.

Basic MCC 5: This may well be an appropriate course for a military pilot. A steep learning curve nonetheless for even the sharpest. Getting out of single crew techniques can prove difficult.
Old habits die hard.

[bulldog89]

You can bitch about the extra cost if you want, but as a percentage of your total spend it is small.


Won’t talk about APS vs MCC as I don’t have enough knowledge of the subject, but an additional 3500€ is 6% of total training cost (assuming 60k total). Not really “small” in my opinion.

Of course if others are paying for your training even a 10% difference can be seen as “small”...

[737fan]

Won’t talk about APS vs MCC as I don’t have enough knowledge of the subject, but an additional 3500€ is 6% of total training cost (assuming 60k total). Not really “small” in my opinion.

Of course if others are paying for your training even a 10% difference can be seen as “small”...
I wouldn't do it again. And I did it because I thought I have no other options in getting a job. But you always have. Just choose wisely and according your real budget.

​​​​​

[737fan]

You're not welcome in this thread.
Back in May you tried to silence me and to stop writing about SKY4u. I am pretty sure you remember.
Now disappear.

​​​​​​

[JamesBanda]

Did any of you do the intake assessment for the APS MCC at Sky4u, VA or AFTA recently?

[737crew]

As EASA is slow the APS program will be available the next years even if the officials change their mind about it. RYR did a good job in pushing it but most students unwilling to pay for it. Most of the cadets do a MCC before type rating starts with their employer. So no need for it. Legacy carriers all have own programs for their cadets, and mostly they pay for it.

[tevious]

Hello,

I completed my Cpl/Ir/Me last week. I wanted to make an APS MCC with the Ryanair program with one of its partner school. I just sent the basic documents and I didn't have the possibility to try the assessment because the school said me that my application is not going further... I've no idea why, nothing bad in my resume, Atpl score (92% all first pass) and I've a qualified profil beside aviation.
I was in a small flight school in Poland and the training was fine.

Which Ato could you recommend to pass an APS MCC or MCC JOC to maximise the chances to get a job with Ryanair or other airlines? The partner school said me they don't know the reason about the "NO" and they propose me normal MCC JOC.

Thanks.

[JamesBanda]

Hello,

I completed my Cpl/Ir/Me last week. I wanted to make an APS MCC with the Ryanair program with one of its partner school. I just sent the basic documents and I didn't have the possibility to try the assessment because the school said me that my application is not going further... I've no idea why, nothing bad in my resume, Atpl score (92% all first pass) and I've a qualified profil beside aviation.
I was in a small flight school in Poland and the training was fine.

Which Ato could you recommend to pass an APS MCC or MCC JOC to maximise the chances to get a job with Ryanair or other airlines? The partner school said me they don't know the reason about the "NO" and they propose me normal MCC JOC.

Thanks.
Which provider is that?

[parkfell]

Hello,

I completed my Cpl/Ir/Me last week. I wanted to make an APS MCC with the Ryanair program with one of itzzzs partner school. I just sent the basic documents and I didn't have the possibility to try the assessment because the school said me that my application is not going further... I've no idea why, nothing bad in my resume, Atpl score (92% all first pass) and I've a qualified profil beside aviation.
I was in a small flight school in Poland and the training was fine.

Which Ato could you recommend to pass an APS MCC or MCC JOC to maximise the chances to get a job with Ryanair or other airlines? The partner school said me they don't know the reason about the "NO" and they propose me normal MCC JOC.

Thanks.

You need to visit those providers on your shortlist. A reputable ATO offering MCC/JOC will equate to APS. Compare the syllabus' and make your own decision.
If you have some trusted friends who recently completed the MCC phase, then take their advice.

What is critical is that you are a team player and produce a professional performance irrespective with whom you are paired up with. Having a constant bitch about them will go down like a lead balloon.

The acid test of maturity, which is an important characteristic for multi crew flying. Otherwise go back to the previous day job.

[tevious]

Ok,

The Ato was Sky4U, they don't have any informations about why "No", they said.
At this early stage, do you know if juste making application (I didn't pass the cut-E assessment...) and getting a No could give me minus point when I could apply for Ryanair after my MCC in few weeks?

Thanks.

[JamesBanda]

Ok,

The Ato was Sky4U, they don't have any informations about why "No", they said.
At this early stage, do you know if juste making application (I didn't pass the cut-E assessment...) and getting a No could give me minus point when I could apply for Ryanair after my MCC in few weeks?

Thanks.
Did you take the cut-e and did not pass it or they didn't even give you the chance to take the test?

[tevious]

I didn't pass any assessment, just sent the documents they asked for, wait 1 day and today got email saying that my application is not going further...
I asked for a reason, they said they don't know themself and proposed me normal mcc/joc.

[JamesBanda]

I didn't pass any assessment, just sent the documents they asked for, wait 1 day and today got email saying that my application is not going further...
I asked for a reason, they said they don't know themself and proposed me normal mcc/joc.

Very unprofessional!

[tevious]

I cannot say that... they are very fast responding and propose me alternative, I think that FR said no, but the question that no one can answer is why.

If I rely on some messages above it could be possible that the school is no longer in good situation with FR, maybe it's because of the MAX and it's not too a good signal for people who want to apply for FR, or maybe it's because of my school... nice but small at the North of Poland and not a "big name" like some others... Anyway I have to find a new solution.

[bh737]

​​​​​​I wrote down the price above. But it's good to provide once more. Does anybody have the price for Simtech?
I paid €6,800 at Simtech for the APS. I see they have a discount to €3,745 on the MCC/JOC course now and they're doing it on the 737-800...

[tevious]

Was it worthy to make the APS for you, did you get something with Ryr?

I don't know what is the value of Sky4U, I crawled between threads to find a MCC, I think that best country after UK for a job should be Germany (where is Sky4U indeed). I found another one, Cockpit4U, they propose me 3590€ for MCC/JOC on 737NG FFS.
Do you have any feedback about this one?

Do you know some ATOs who have connections with airlines and can help to get a job after the MCC?

If someone is looking for a MCC, ready to go and would like to come with me to C4U (not yet validated from my side but within next days if everything still ok), let me know, they can organize course only for us so we won't be bothered with regular schedule.

[parkfell]

I paid €6,800 at Simtech for the APS. I see they have a discount to €3,745 on the MCC/JOC course now and they're doing it on the 737-800...

You would not be comparing apples with pears by any chance?

To be meaningful, you must compare exactly what each course is offering.......

[Ronaldsway Radar]

I paid €6,800 at Simtech for the APS. I see they have a discount to €3,745 on the MCC/JOC course now and they're doing it on the 737-800...

To clarify, the MCC elements (20H) are carried out on the generic XJ simulator. Only the final 8 hours are carried out on the 738 sim. That's taken from Simtech's website.

[parkfell]

Just bear in mind that we are talking about MCC. The clue is in the name. This is the first opportunity for junior birdmen, post CPL/IR issue, to practice working as a crew. PF & PM. The harder part is PM, as you start the course with ZERO experience of the role. Quite simply " stick with the script ". The other new bit is getting away from R/T used during IR training and adopt "line flying R/T" iaw CAP413 (UK CAA).
The device, provided it is approved, will be adequate to start to learn the multi crew techniques. A taster. Learning the protocols, using simplified SOPs. TDODAR. NITS. etc

You do not need an " all singing and dancing" high tech FFS for this course which junior birdmen often think is their best bet.
They are getting confused with others courses which follow on from MCC.

[travis.karl]

Was it worthy to make the APS for you, did you get something with Ryr?

I don't know what is the value of Sky4U, I crawled between threads to find a MCC, I think that best country after UK for a job should be Germany (where is Sky4U indeed). I found another one, Cockpit4U, they propose me 3590€ for MCC/JOC on 737NG FFS.
Do you have any feedback about this one?

Do you know some ATOs who have connections with airlines and can help to get a job after the MCC?

If someone is looking for a MCC, ready to go and would like to come with me to C4U (not yet validated from my side but within next days if everything still ok), let me know, they can organize course only for us so we won't be bothered with regular schedule.

C4U is a good choice. Would always recommend them. Sky4u on the contrary is apparently doing bad. So reputation wise you should go for C4U.

[Reverserbucket]

You do not need an "all singing and dancing" high tech FFS for this course which junior birdmen often think is their best bet.
But ATO marketing departments like to promote their high fidelity contemporary type FTD's as the best way to secure a first job - it surely isn't coincidence that those offering APS in a 738 sim were apparently 'partnering' with RYR to provide flow to the airline? A student pilot and their money are easily parted by targeted, confident sales pitch, particularly where technology is concerned (I recall the introduction of the G1000 and the schools suggesting the improved chances of finding a job on an EFIS type if you trained in a DA40/42 instead of a PA28/34, irrespective of the suitability of the type for training, etc.).

The question really should be, how did we manage before MCC/JOC/APS? I don't recall type-ratings taking any longer than they do today or the ability of freshly minted CPL/IR holders to acclimatise to a multi-crew environment, or modified R/T (in the UK at least, CAP413 is used at IR level as well btw). In any event, a lot of multi-crew discipline could be conducted in a more cost efficient manner in the classroom complemented by inexpensive cockpit trainers, rather than the high-end devices often used. The real difference lies in the basic ability of these individuals in my view; many simply don't appear to have competently grasped the fundamentals of attitude and speed control in a light single which makes the transition to a CS23/25 type and associated multi-crew concept more of a handful.

APS is a significant increase in cost to the student over MCC and further widens the gap between those with genuine ability and interest versus those with the facility to pay. It is a travesty that the time and effort devoted to creating APS was not spent reinforcing the front-end of training, and that EASA feels that deficiencies in basic training can be smoothed-over through adoption of a course of approved training in a more complex, faster paced training environment. But then of course, there's comparatively little profit in single-engine piston training vs what you can make per hour in a FFS.

[travis.karl]

Since my first posting on this forum I'm telling that the APS is nonsense. But still many students unsure about what to do.
​​​​

[737fan]

Not the small aggressive one from Berlin. And I would highly appreciate if the people stick to my request. I started this thread to collect and share exoereience and information about AFTA, Simtech, VA, Bartolini (now) etc
For sure you can not compensate less quality with big marketing, people will find out but it will take some time.
Thank you

[BoeingLudo737]

Many new cadets invited and passed RYR with MCC only, most of them no APS students. On other hand many APS students failed. That's what I heard from inside.

I will reveal your identity.

You are a training organisation which provides MCC training and you are trying to discredit APS MCC providers and the course itself as much as you can.
The above information you gave is totally untrue and unfounded.
Assessments stats are directly available on the RYR website.
Stop lying to people on this forum

[737fan]

I will reveal your identity.

You are a training organisation which provides MCC training and you are trying to discredit APS MCC providers and the course itself as much as you can.
The above information you gave is totally untrue and unfounded.
Assessments stats are directly available on the RYR website.
Stop lying to people on this forum

And you seem to be Kay Wachtelborn. You are the last one to say something. Please disappear.
Don't be afraid. We're not talking about small sky. Only about the serious componies

[tevious]

This war between you both is a little bit weird from outside...

I contacted C4U and S4U for the MCC, both were correct in the exchanges and even if the training is not the same (one is less expansive on FFS with summer discount but with less sim time, the other is few hundred euros more but with 10h sim more on fixed sim), I think they are both good, so I decided to go to the one which gave me the soonest date and which is S4U.
I'll go there in a few weeks so I'll give you a true feedback after...
For now they give me whole 737 CBT and asked me to learn at least 10 modules and if possible the whole course. The quality of the CBT is good, I cannot say something wrong against, some people criticize the APS... I asked for but I was not able to be in this program (maybe due to Ryr has closed hiring, stopping APS in the same time would be something logic), so I'm going for regular MCC/JOC... For 2700€ less and 30h in sim, it is just 10h less in the sim than the APS, so a good deal from my side!

If you both fighting are representatives from some schools, you should avoid to do that in a public forum... people are not stupid and can sense who is a user and who is from the marketing :)
I give you an objective feedback after the MCC, here I read somethings against this school, meanwhile some friends now in Airline recommended me to go there so a fresh feedback from someone neutral could be positive for everyone ;)

[737fan]

Thank you for your detailed reply.
Please post your feedback in an other thread. This one is not for sky, but for AFTA, Simtech, VA, and so on
You will pretty well understand that there are many other open threads/forums for this particulare flight school. But I would like to collect information for the others.
Ciao

[chafra]

I don't see any extra value with the APS. Cadets are forced to do everything double and triple on own expenses. Where will this stop?
Airlines should better ask openly for donations, would be more honest.
​

[chafra]

Weeks ago I heard SKY4U is for sale. Secret talks going on. CEO apparantly wants to get rid of it. Expansion plans not working
​​​​

[parkfell]

I don't see any extra value with the APS. Cadets are forced to do everything double and triple on own expenses. Where will this stop?
Airlines should better ask openly for donations, would be more honest.
​
A quality MCC/JOC course will essentially cover the items specified in APS.
Shop around

[tevious]

Hi,

I just completed the MCC/JOC with Sky4U. I read, sorry to say it, but a lot of bull**** about the situation.
The situation is good inside and their partnerships with airlines run well, I saw 5 people doing the Easyjet NGC this evening after our last sim, I saw also at least 2 groups of APS from Ryanair, I don't know how many MCC were running the last 2 weeks but with the time of some of our sims I think they have a lot!

About the MCC/JOC itself, I'm completely satisfied, we got some old experienced guys, some younger passionate and all high qualified, all flying or having flown for airlines and cargo.

The sim itself is realistic and belongs to the company (it's inside LAT's center but they have their offices and space for sim there), the SOPs well done too, I just wished to get it before going to the MCC when I suscribed to have more time to learn it, but on site it was fine.

We got for the last 3 days the CFI as instructor. He's simply amazing, he pushed us a lot, at the beginning I was freaking out about him, but he thinks very quickly and he's the most efficient instructor I got from my first hour of PPL, truly. He easily finds what are you weaknesses and helps to be better. He asks a lot of people, but besides he's very fair and positive, and out of the training he's a very nice guy!
It was not comfortable and we were not here to play with the sim, but the learning curve was very steep, I made progress and learnt about myself like I've never thought before, and his method works very well!

One minus point was sometimes the hours of sim, 2 times a very early wake up, the roster was in parallel stable as announced before the training, we had few very early sims as I wrote, few very late and few during daylight, it was a little bit complicated for my biorythm... but hey, you want to be a pilot, that's your future anyway, good to know how can be the life with this job... a minus for a plus so!

Last point, MCC JOC is not APS, according to regulation you attend all the course, you get the certificate... but that's not what Sky4U does, they have their standards (and they have high standards, good when you understand that it's maybe the last time you touch a sim before an assessment if you don't follow a sim preparation...), they train you to meet it and only when you reach what they want you to reach they give you the MCC. If you don't reach or fail something, you can get extra session, I don't know how it works and who pays for that, according to what I hear, it occured only a couple of times... Basically, they ask you a lot, but they give you the material to be ready for the sim, and if you do you job and commit yourself with personnal homework and full concentration within sim time, it can only go well.

I can only recommend them, but as I just wrote, you're not going to play with a sim for 2 weeks of holidays, prepare you to work and to put your skills to a new level.
I'll probably go there again for sim preparation, but I first have to be invited by an airline for that.

[travis.karl]

... to make Sky4u look good. Sure, if it's a student he doesn't want to graduate or receive a certificate from a crappy school. Otherwise if it's a paid marketing agency putting effort in good reviews and recommendations, it's simply cheating.
Whoever believes in this scheme is completely naive.
And Sky is in talks with different companies, Europe wide. They want a savior for some reasons. It's obvious. A sale may occur. Or an investor may buy in.
But it's f.....g hilarious that they promoted their non-existing sim center excessively. Now they're regarded a joke in Berlin. By the way: who is Kay Wachtelborn? Pretending to be somebody, in fact being nothing else than a criminal with an obvious track record. We had that already in other threads. Look again at his old contacts and friends.
Nothing more to say.
​​​​​​
​​

​​

[tevious]

At least I can go to marketing agency if I don't become a pilot :P

I don't know what are you talking about Kay, I just met him one time in Berlin, he was nice and fair, what happens with business after that is not my business, maybe you're true, maybe not, I don't know...
The only thing which was interesting me was the quality of training, and it's fine.

No idea about the building with sim center story, I've never heard something about that and we didn't talk about that (learning SOP and building CRM was enough actually...), the only thing I can say is that the sim belongs to Sim4U which is the sister company from Sky4U and is located in front of 4 FFS...

[737fan]

By posting here and ignoring my last posts and request you simply ignore the topic of this thread. And you keep posting the same on other threads, so your major interest is to promote a certain name.

You can do so, you have plenty of other threads and you can spam all over with your flightschool. But I'm about to vomit reading your and your aliases posts.

​​​​​​

[tevious]

I understand that you need feedbacks from other ATO, anyway I'm fair and cannot agree when someone (who might had something to do or was related to the school) makes unfair and untrue bashing against.
I'm just now a frozen Atpl and I'm looking for a job (and they didn't give me any supply or connection for that), it was important for me to relate my experience in order to counter balance what some people say and which is from my experience completely wrong.

Now I have my MCC/JOC, I gave my feedback and said what I had to say, I won't take longer part in this topic, don't worry about potential spams, it won't be from me if it occurs.

[bobby.barker]

So much bull**** on this thread. The simple fact is APSMCC graduates are far better prepared for assessments and type rating. While Ryanair might have had a guiding hand in the regulation, many of the better MCC providers have offered enhanced versions for years.

The other key point is that the the APS has a test at the end of it, rather than just being an attendance course. I’ve trained hundreds of students on basic (20 hr) MCCs and I can tell you, we might have given them a certificate, (because they ‘completed’ the course), but only a few reached a point where I was confident they would pass a sim check. Many were awful including a percentage that I wouldn’t trust to sit the right way round on a lavatory let alone fly a transport category aircraft.

On an APS course there is a lot more scope to fix basic problems, and, if they cannot be fixed, then they will fail the APS assessment.

Simple fact is APSMCC holders have greater success rate at interview. You can bitch about the extra cost if you want, but as a percentage of your total spend it is small. If it gets you to a job a little bit quicker it pays for itself anyway.

Doing a basic MCC is a false economy.

finally someone with brains and expertise...

[Climb150]

Sorry if I missed it. Surely a Jet Orientation course and Multi Crew Co operation course are just that. Introducing you to a jet and multi crew.
Its not a test of flying the sim. That is what type ratings are for surely?

[parkfell]

Sorry if I missed it. Surely a Jet Orientation course and Multi Crew Co operation course are just that. Introducing you to a jet and multi crew.
Its not a test of flying the sim. That is what type ratings are for surely?

EASA

Whilst there is no formal Regulatory assessment for MCC, it is more than just an attendance course.
You do have to put in sufficient effort to reach a satisfactory.

JOC however is unregulated. The certificate issued for attending the course is a matter for the provider.

The APS is assessed and a minimum standard is required to be certified for the APS qualification. If the standard is not reached then a MCC certificate is another option.
I suppose a complete ‘no hoper’ leaves without any certificate.
Having said that, ‘never so never’ as a wise old hand one said to me many moons ago.