QF72 the aftermath

[mickjoebill]

A startling and frank account of the long term effects on a pilot, following a loss of control of QF 72 at 35,0000ft


mjb

​​​​​​​https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-ve-become-very-isolated-the-aftermath-of-near-doomed-qf72-20190514-p51n7q.html (https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-ve-become-very-isolated-the-aftermath-of-near-doomed-qf72-20190514-p51n7q.html)

[Bend alot]

Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.

[Capt Fathom]

Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.

Except the pitch wasn’t working!

[roybert]

Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.

Bend alot

Strongly suggest that you read the book. He did fly the plane and that's why all those people are alive.

Roybert

[yanrair]

Except the pitch wasn’t working!
It looks like the triple AOA inputs had one false input which the other two did not vote out, so the plane reacted. Not much the pilot could do since it was all over in a very short time. But for readers of ET and Lionair who are banking on triple or double AOA inputs solving the MCAS event, it looks like at the end of the day, no amount of automation is going to ensure a safe flight in every situation. Things can happen that nobody had anticipated or just plain go wrong. As in this case.
Here things called pilots are used. Now, if you don't train those pilots to hand- fly in RAW DATA and MANUAL CONTROL, as seems increasingly to be the case, we enter a dystopian world where if the computers cannot cope in every possible situation - clearly an impossibility, then the outcome is not good to contemplate. I believe that following ET and Lionair there is going to be a rip roaring battle between the automators and the hand flyers. It is much cheaper and easier to stuff in some more software and avoid 100 hours plus EXTRA initial training (although this cost is usually borne by the trainee) and longer Type Ratiing Courses probably involving 15 x 4 hours sessions versus the current 9 x 4 hours sessions. Then perhaps 5 full days of recurrent training per annum versus the current 3 - in some airlines 4. A day in the sim. spent doing nothing else but manual interventions and hand flying would be a good start. But then if the airline has a policy of almost banning manual flight above 400 feet as is often the case on the line, that gets us nowhere.
Oh dear here we go............Took off from Tokyo for Moscow and autopilots would not engage. At all. Flew to Moscow no problem whatsoever. But that was when Pontius was a pilot and of course nobody needs those skills these days, do they!

Happy Flying
Y

[hans brinker]

Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.
I guess you needed /s...
Not enough people read all the MAX thread
threads, I got a laugh tho.

[Bend alot]

I guess you needed /s...
Not enough people read all the MAX thread
threads, I got a laugh tho.
Yep, went over a few tho.

[ironbutt57]

Just fly the aeroplane!

Power and pitch - Fly the plane.

guess you didnt get it

[ironbutt57]

I can almost bet you, if two ab-initio background pilots were in the cockpit, the outcome would have been very different

[tdracer]

Not to diminish what the pilots did on QF 72 in any way - they performed brilliantly.
But they were damn lucky it happened at 35k. Had HAL decided it wanted to kill them at 10k instead of 35k, it's unlikely they could have done anything about it.
Boeing isn't the only airframer that occasionally gets it wrong...

[old,not bold]

It's reminiscent of another QF loss of control, when a B707 - I forget the model - went out of control in the cruise en route to Bahrain, late '60s/early '70s.

There were signs that while out of control the aircraft had experienced up to +3G to -3G, and may have been inverted at some point.

The reasons were quite complex, but I vividly remember the Captain saying, after we had got the passengers off and into a hotel, that he had only managed to regain control at 6,000 ft (I think it was) by using primary instruments, throttles, "stick and rudder", and doing exactly what he would have done in the Tiger Moth he had learned in.

[Selfloading]

Not to diminish what the pilots did on QF 72 in any way - they performed brilliantly.
But they were damn lucky it happened at 35k. Had HAL decided it wanted to kill them at 10k instead of 35k, it's unlikely they could have done anything about it.
Boeing isn't the only airframer that occasionally gets it wrong...

at 10k the result would have been the same, from memory they lost less than 700 feet in the first instance, before returning to 37k, and the second incident was not as severe.

[A320ECAM]

Talk about being a drama queen!

That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.

[Herod]

Talk about being a drama queen!

Were you there? Has it ever happened to you? If not, your comment is out of order.

[fdr]

Talk about being a drama queen!

That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.

On what basis would you make such a derogatory remark? I happen to have flown with the Captain in the military and in the same airline, and he was a competent, unassuming pilot with a wealth of experience. The crew were presented with a flight control anomaly that was well outside of normal bounds, and got everyone on the ground in one piece. It was some time later before any rational guidance on what to do with an errant FBW system came from the OEM. The Airbus is less friendly in this case than the B777 or 787, where it is a simple matter to remove the FBW inputs and degrade to a B747.

Unless you have been confronted with a dynamic life threatening situation where you shoulder the immediate responsibility for the welfare of some hundreds of other people, I would hold your own counsel in mute ignorance.

[megan]

Talk about being a drama queen!There talks an individual who has never faced his maker. Many an aviator has gone down with PTSD following a dramatic event, I'm one, so back in your box and grow up. Thumbs up to the previous two posters. It's reminiscent of another QF loss of control, when a B707Colloquially known as "The Bahrain Bomber". Story here

http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-707q/vh-eab/information.htmlt

Currently flying with the 116th Air Control Wing, Warner Robins Air Force Base

[42go]

I expect his computer told him to post that.

[mrdeux]

I expect we’ll eventually get to read about Mr 320ECAM in a crash comic. Unless you’ve been there, and you very obviously haven’t, you can keep your comments to yourself.

PTSD is very real, and following on from a major aviation event, is a likely outcome. We can be as capable as we like in flight, but once we get back on the ground, and away from the aircraft, pilots are as likely to have issues as anyone else. Perhaps more so, as they are less likely to say anything because of our fear of medical involvement.

This was a nasty event, that was well handled. It does not need to be compared to any other QF event, in an attempt to devalue it.

[dr dre]

I can almost bet you, if two ab-initio background pilots were in the cockpit, the outcome would have been very different

What makes you think that? An underlying hatred of ab-initio pilots and jumping on the bandwagon that they “crack under pressure”?

Most pilots flying airliners today did come through ab-initio schemes. That particular airline itself has run ab-initio schemes for over 50 years which have produced hundreds of successful pilots, Captains, Chief Pilots and Training Captains on aircraft as large as the A380.

The incident didn’t take extreme skills or knowledge to recover from. The crew did a great job, but I’m sure any well trained crew (ab-initio background or not) would have successfully handled this incident.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Talk about being a drama queen! That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.

WTF???

This has nothing to do with PTSD..... just ask members of the armed forces who are suffering from it.

It's not in anyway my place to chastise people on here but, that is an ill-informed and insolent comment and...... miserably inadequate.

[billabongbill]

Agree, drama queen

[Herod]

Been there, done that, suffered alopecia. (hair loss). It may not be PTSD, but it's still very real. If you haven't experienced it, back off.

[bigal cessna]

it was a b707-138 [ i think vh-eah ] the fuselage was twisted permanently ---- the cabin overhead old type shelf were like a roller coaster ride a had tp be adjusted level again ----- the plane had to be flown with trims off set --- the AH failed and the autopilot followed it -- the first officer didnt notice it , it was night over arabia --- it was interesting to see other damage to the aircraft suffered when it exceeded the speed of sound ---------

[Old Dogs]

Talk about being a drama queen!

That Capt needs to remember that QF hasn't had an accident for many decades, unless you of course count that Bangkok 747 or A380 Titanic of the Skies.

You obviously do not have much flying experience. 😏

[Capt Fathom]

it was a b707-138 [ i think vh-eah ] the fuselage was twisted permanently ---- the cabin overhead old type shelf were like a roller coaster ride a had tp be adjusted level again ----- the plane had to be flown with trims off set --- the AH failed and the autopilot followed it -- the first officer didnt notice it , it was night over arabia --- it was interesting to see other damage to the aircraft suffered when it exceeded the speed of sound ---------

Maybe have a read of the link provided by Megan in post #16.

[rkenyon]

After reading for 5 minutes, all I can hear is "me, myself and I".

[ph-sbe]

After reading for 5 minutes, all I can hear is "me, myself and I".

The story is from his perception. If course it describes what he observed and did. If anything, it shows how he performed his duties until relieved.

Talk about being a drama queen!

Of all the posts that I've seen removed here on pprune, this is one the really needs some moderation.

The man was PIC on a flight that had a major malfunction and numerous wounded people. People who had put their trust in him transporting them safely. This is not drama, this is human performance and human responses to a crisis situation. If anything, it is a very well-written piece that provides an excellent insight in the minds of an experienced captain after an incident like that.

You, sir, need to shred your airman certificate.

[megan]

More on the PTSD front for those who think it's a bit of a scam from a drama queen. Anyone who thinks along those lines needs to take ph-sbe advice given in the last sentence.

It hides behind a paywall hence the quote.A former Etihad Airways pilot has spoken out about the blase attitude towards mental health in the aviation industry after his own struggle to have his licence cancelled.

Finian Greene, 50, realised he was not coping a few months after a serious incident involving an Etihad Boeing 777 on a service from Abu Dhabi to Sydney on September 27, 2016. There were 352 people on board the flight and as the nose wheel lifted off the ground the tyre separated, sending a large chunk of rubber through the left engine.

“Witnesses reported hearing a loud bang and saw a large fireball as the engine destroyed itself basically, but we had to continue because we were beyond a speed that would allow us to safely stop,” Mr Greene said. “So we continued the take-off and approximately 35 minutes later we got the aircraft back and did an overweight landing; a very fast, single-engine landing and we used up the whole of the runway.”

After the passengers disembarked, Mr Greene inspected the damage and saw there were tyre marks that went to the right hand engine as well.

“We found out later that yes, tyre tread did make its way down towards the right engine and deflected off the engine cowl,” he said. “We were very lucky it didn’t go through that engine as well or it would’ve been a very different story for the 352 people on board.”

An investigation into the incident found foreign object debris on the runway at Abu Dhabi was responsible, and new measures were put in place to addressthe issue.

After a full debrief and five days off, Mr Greene returned to regular flying but soon realised something was very wrong.

“I suspected my performance was deteriorating significantly to the extent of it being dangerous,” he said. “One of my last flights was out of Amsterdam and I knew from there I was deeply in trouble because I was just looking in on myself.”

He returned to his family in Australia for some time off and let the vice-president of medical services with Etihad know he needed help before he was returned to the flying roster.

Despite her assurances that would happen, when Mr Greene went back to Abu Dhabi no appointments were scheduled and he said the medical services vice president refused to take his calls. “They wanted to keep me on the roster and towards the end I was just begging, saying ‘I cannot fly", he said.

After several more weeks, Mr Greene went back to Sydney to seek psychiatric help for post traumatic stress disorder.

After 18 months of therapy, Mr Greene said the professional opinion was that it would be dangerous for him to fly again.

During this time, Etihad offered to bring him back to Abu Dhabi for treatment but his legal advice was to stay put.

After almost ten years of service his job was terminated with none of his entitlements being paid. “I had an ex-colleague say come back to work with your old airline and don't say anything, just pretend nothing’s happened and go from there, but I said there’s no way I would do that,” he said.

“But now as time has gone on and I’m fighting for a loss of licence, I can understand why people would do it, which is completely wrong, of course.”

As well as being disillusioned by his experience in the Middle East, Mr Greene said he felt let down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation and pilots associations.

“With what my family and I have gone through post-incident, it does not surprise me that pilots choose to keep mental issues to themselves,” he said. “This, of course, is wrong.”

Etihad did not respond to questions from The Australian.