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Office Update
16th May 2019, 06:37
Noted on FR24 is Virgin E-190 VH-ZPT tracking to Cairns from Hilo. Aircraft in storage at Nashville for a while.
I thought they were expensive to operate ?

wheels_down
16th May 2019, 06:48
They are going to Tiger. Why have two fleet types when you can have three.

Dewa_Gede_70
16th May 2019, 07:02
Noted on FR24 is Virgin E-190 VH-ZPT tracking to Cairns from Hilo. Aircraft in storage at Nashville for a while.
I thought they were expensive to operate ?


Inbound to Cobham

Icarus2001
17th May 2019, 08:01
I thought they were expensive to operate ?

I think there were some issues early on around engine maintenance costs, Jetblue in the US had some concerns. If the Boeing chart below is anywhere near accurate then at 3% of operating costs, that should be controllable. VA ditched their Embraer jets because the Wunderkind JB said so. Now they are still paying leases on them whilst stored in the US (not this one). A brilliant move to replace E jets with ATR turboprops.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/797x421/boeing_iata_airline_cost_2015_graph_cf7a7df3b4aadb7c7a94a83a 8d9016163ccaef59.png

ebt
17th May 2019, 08:46
Some people I have spoken to say the problem with the E-Jet is that it needs a little more love and won't go up and down all day like a 737, which is what VOz ops was used to. There is also the issue that when Godfrey bought them, he saw them as a jet that would fly all over the network, including on the transcons, as a somewhat cheaper alternative to the 737-700. That's why why they went with the AR version. And that was fine when Virgin Blue was cheap and cheerful, just a bit harder when you put a halo product on the A330s and tell everyone that you're the Ritz of the Air now.

In my very limited experience of the Jungle Jet as a passenger, it was a great piece of kit that was very comfortable. But, also in my experience, the two times I flew on them the loads were way too light to be economical, which you can blame on the rev managers. Perhaps that is part of a wider issue?

regional_flyer
17th May 2019, 09:45
Inbound to Cobham

Yep. This particular aircraft was the one destined for Jetgo before they went bust. Delivered to Cobham earlier today still in basic Jetgo colours.

Snakecharma
17th May 2019, 19:11
EBT there was never any intention to run them transcon, but your basic premise is correct - they were seen as a cheaper alternative to a -700 on east coast city pairs, particularly Sydney canberra

The logic still stands, if you have 100 punters on a flight then you are chockers on a 190 and just over half full on an 800. 1 less cabin crew member, pilots were a bit cheaper, it burnt less fuel and the ANC’s were lower, plus they were a shedload cheaper to buy than a 800, and at one point virgin owned most of them.

I can’t wrap my head around the logic of paying someone else to do your flying. Alliance surely aren’t doing it for free, so they must be making a profit. If they are making a profit it is a profit that VA could have potentially made using their own resources.

As for the product, it was a much nicer proposition than the 737 regardless of the outside paint scheme and the soft product inside. 2x2 economy with 1x2 J class is pretty comfy and it is quieter than the 737, lighter with bigger windows than the 737, and cruises at pretty much the same speed (somewhat faster than an ATR).

Getting rid of them was an act of hubris on the part of a couple of people - all of whom are no longer with the business having taken their bonuses and departed the scene happy.

It was terribly sad as many of the pilots were very happy on that fleet and would have stayed there longer if given the opportunity. I should also be noted that those same pilots are getting paid more to fly the 737 and they still would prefer the ejet.

Icarus2001
18th May 2019, 09:33
Well I see that VARA run a Fokker 100 between ADL and PER. Surely an Ejet would have been better? As for the ATR routes, no contest.

Zhoottoo
18th May 2019, 13:11
Shirley you're not serious???? The social media fanfare and the supposed future of Cobham FIFO and it is going to fly on Monday PER-BWB-PER in Jetgo house colors!!!! Guessing it won't be welcome at KTA given the council paid for the paint job.

If Cobham can't even afford a lease return white paint job presume it's still VA config 6J/92Y and the hi-viz boys and girls have to punch on at boarding to decide who sits in the comfy seats......

Do let us all know please.

Arthur D
19th May 2019, 01:57
Cobham need an aircraft for Chevron less than 25 years old.

they already had the e-jet on the AOC and ex VA they are cheap.

As for an e-jet revolution in Aus, not goanna happen, all costs considered, the FK100 kills it.

maybe the E2 in 5-10 years, but I doubt even that

neville_nobody
19th May 2019, 02:23
As for an e-jet revolution in Aus, not goanna happen, all costs considered, the FK100 kills it.

Except F100s are 20-30 years old. Reality is you can't keep flogging ancient aircraft forever. F100 operators are going to have to start looking at an alternative eventually, whether they like it or not.
Will customers be willing to accept and operators willing to risk 40 year old aircraft?

Icarus2001
19th May 2019, 02:48
The social media fanfare and the supposed future of Cobham FIFO and it is going to fly on Monday PER-BWB-PER in Jetgo house colors!!!! Which platform had the "social media fanfare" I cannot see anything on the Cobham FB page?

all costs considered, the FK100 kills it What about the costs of delays and rescue flights? Ask Network pilots about the rate of breakdowns.

F100 operators are going to have to start looking at an alternative eventually, whether they like it or not. Exactly. The clients will want "modern" aircraft, as you say...Cobham need an aircraft for Chevron less than 25 years old.

FNJ 1993
FNR 1994
FNY 1994
FNU 1991
NHP 1992
NHC 1993
FKD 1991
UQD 1993
XWQ 1990

25 to 29 years old.

ZPT 2011 8 years old.

regional_flyer
19th May 2019, 03:30
If Cobham can't even afford a lease return white paint job presume it's still VA config 6J/92Y and the hi-viz boys and girls have to punch on at boarding to decide who sits in the comfy seats......

Do let us all know please.

You're correct. Right down to the mish-mash red/purple/gray headrest covers and the purple cabin divider between the J and Y seats.

A Cobham E190 in Jetgo colours with Virgin interior... brand identity confusion much?

Icarus2001
19th May 2019, 03:50
A Cobham E190 in Jetgo colours with Virgin interior... brand identity confusion much? Yeah, I bet the passengers will be devastated. Good chance that they will refuse to board. :rolleyes:

Icarus2001
21st May 2019, 07:10
https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/05/embraer-e190-returns-to-cobham-fleet-for-fifo-work/?inf_contact_key=1b3daaab1b8dcf3a2bef068000ad422416358d54858 84e2f31e6019a0d26c8b0

​​​​​​​ (https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/05/embraer-e190-returns-to-cobham-fleet-for-fifo-work/?inf_contact_key=1b3daaab1b8dcf3a2bef068000ad422416358d54858 84e2f31e6019a0d26c8b0)Looks like it arrived.

Chocks Away
22nd May 2019, 01:32
Spot on, Neville & Icarus.:ok:
Something extremely important that the bean-counters are oblivious to and which is very prevalent right now, is damage to your brand!
Constant breakdowns running cheap old aircraft creates a brand reliability issue, no matter how hard working & good your maintenance team may be... "Can't see the forest for the trees", comes to mind.
A good brand reliability pays the bills many times over, hence investing in newer airframes as per Cobham (Emb/Q400) will see them in a more powerful position I reckon.
Happy landings:ok:

ebt
22nd May 2019, 03:44
EBT there was never any intention to run them transcon, but your basic premise is correct - they were seen as a cheaper alternative to a -700 on east coast city pairs, particularly Sydney canberra

The logic still stands, if you have 100 punters on a flight then you are chockers on a 190 and just over half full on an 800. 1 less cabin crew member, pilots were a bit cheaper, it burnt less fuel and the ANCís were lower, plus they were a shedload cheaper to buy than a 800, and at one point virgin owned most of them.

I canít wrap my head around the logic of paying someone else to do your flying. Alliance surely arenít doing it for free, so they must be making a profit. If they are making a profit it is a profit that VA could have potentially made using their own resources.

As for the product, it was a much nicer proposition than the 737 regardless of the outside paint scheme and the soft product inside. 2x2 economy with 1x2 J class is pretty comfy and it is quieter than the 737, lighter with bigger windows than the 737, and cruises at pretty much the same speed (somewhat faster than an ATR).

Getting rid of them was an act of hubris on the part of a couple of people - all of whom are no longer with the business having taken their bonuses and departed the scene happy.

It was terribly sad as many of the pilots were very happy on that fleet and would have stayed there longer if given the opportunity. I should also be noted that those same pilots are getting paid more to fly the 737 and they still would prefer the ejet.


Brett Godfrey did mention transcons when he was in the driver's seat as to why they went for the AR variant. Of course, it was probably more of an option if the market tanked and they needed to downgrade from 737-800s but keep frequency. But then when JB came in, it was all about the premium seats and A330s.

As much as VA could pick up the Alliance-operated flights if they brought back some EJets (or an alternative), I imagine that by the time you add in all the infrastructure, training systems etc that would have to be brought back on-line, the Alliance deal is probably much cheaper. But it probably only makes sense in the short-term and on specific routes. Flying an F100 12 hours a day like a 737 across a network gets expensive quickly. Add in a potential takeover of Alliance by Qantas into the mix and VA will probably be taking a good hard look at a longer-term 100-seat solution.

exfocx
22nd May 2019, 07:18
Brand issue my backside, the miners couldn't give a rats arse about that. Five yrs ago there was concern about delays and reliability etc, but that was during the boom with a need to retain workers as there were more jobs than workers. However, that's not the case now with most workers more worried about keeping their jobs; prime concern now is cost.

Anyone have an idea what the difference is in lease costs between a F100 and an E190, I've seen online that values for an E190 range from 25 to 30 mil, so what would that be as a monthly lease compared to an F100?

AerocatS2A
22nd May 2019, 07:30
Who cares what the miners think? They aren't signing the contract, their bosses are.

rep
22nd May 2019, 09:39
Pretty sure a second hand F100 is around $2-3m. Cheap as chips for an airliner. It's why Alliance love them.

Arthur D
22nd May 2019, 11:25
What about the costs of delays and rescue flights? Ask Network pilots about the rate of breakdowns.

Exactly. The clients will want "modern" aircraft, as you say...

FNJ 1993
FNR 1994
FNY 1994
FNU 1991
NHP 1992
NHC 1993
FKD 1991
UQD 1993
XWQ 1990

25 to 29 years old.



You might like to check the BITRE stats before talking about breakdowns on F100ís. Whilst youíre there, check out the On time performance.

It would seem that the old birds do ok when used Ďsparinglyí, with the right support. A model suited to WA.

An 8 year old aircraft sounds expensive, I suspect Cobham got a good deal courtesy of the Virgin Shareholders.

Agree that the F100, like any machine, will have a limitation to itís life span. My point is not that, rather that the timing is not right to replace with 8 year old aircraft, especially in a low utilisation environment like WA.

This is why I suspect QantasLink are putting older ex Jetstar A320ís in

exfocx
22nd May 2019, 15:03
AerocatS2A,

That's right, the the workers don't sign the checks, the MINERS do. And cutting costs is king, ask anyone who works at BHP, RIO, FMG or Roy Hill.

DUXNUTZ
22nd May 2019, 22:49
With VA feeling the need to gift BNE - CNS to alliance a couple days a week, possibly the opening of return for the ejets? Still paying leases on a few.

porch monkey
22nd May 2019, 23:05
Not with the new boss in charge.

Chocks Away
23rd May 2019, 02:48
exfocx sorry to disagree in part but that's what discussion is all about eh.
Most tradies I'm dealing with can't swat the mines away from them offering jobs throughout WA and there's even more action occuring after this latest election result!
Yes, what you say is true for the Mine owners signing the cheques but that doesn't contribute to the full Brand, only part.
There is an enormous amount of other business contracts & discretionnary ticket buyers nationawide, far removed from the mining industry who are now often inconvenienced by the "race to the bottom", cutting frontline costs but not managerial i.e. the older seating; cheap box meals and regular break downs of the QF fleet. Two I've dealt with this last month no longer fly QF and cut up their FreqFlyer cards.
There's a point where making millions running "pigs with lipstick" isn't as efficient as newer airframes. VANZ's / Poly Blue's profits when it first started, with new B738's, a classic case in point.
Happy Landings:ok:

topend3
23rd May 2019, 06:11
So they cut their QF cards up to fly with VA on.... the same old type of shitty clapped out aeroplane that QLink uses 😹




exfocx sorry to disagree in part but that's what discussion is all about eh.
Most tradies I'm dealing with can't swat the mines away from them offering jobs throughout WA and there's even more action occuring after this latest election result!
Yes, what you say is true for the Mine owners signing the cheques but that doesn't contribute to the full Brand, only part.
There is an enormous amount of other business contracts & discretionnary ticket buyers nationawide, far removed from the mining industry who are now often inconvenienced by the "race to the bottom", cutting frontline costs but not managerial i.e. the older seating; cheap box meals and regular break downs of the QF fleet. Two I've dealt with this last month no longer fly QF and cut up their FreqFlyer cards.
There's a point where making millions running "pigs with lipstick" isn't as efficient as newer airframes. VANZ's / Poly Blue's profits when it first started, with new B738's, a classic case in point.
Happy Landings:ok:

exfocx
23rd May 2019, 13:03
Chocks Away,

That might be so for the gold mines, but from the people I know at the majors they're having no problem with churn (WA). I know a numbers in the electrical trades and not a lot of work out there.

I thought this was more to do with FIFO equipment replacement.

Chocks Away
25th May 2019, 16:56
Topend - you assume too much. It doesn't automatically mean they go to VA.
exfocx - yes it still is about FIFO but I guess the discussion transgressed into regional RPT also, as Cobham have the luxury of crossing over into nationwide RPT as well as other big contracts and VA used such airframes (E190) extensively.
Interesting discussion but the question remains who is going to outlay the first big dollars for upgrages onto more efficient newer types and tussle with CASA? So far it has only been those type-frames already on the register.

wishiwasupthere
26th May 2019, 00:39
Alliance Airlines, Virgin Australia to launch Melbourne to Kununurra flights in 2020 (https://thewest.com.au/travel/air-aviation/alliance-airlines-virgin-australia-to-launch-melbourne-to-kununurra-flights-in-2020-ng-b881210949z?utm_campaign=share-icons&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&tid=1558815716729)

More VA flying to Alliance. At this rate, VA will just become a travel agent selling tickets for Alliance.

Icarus2001
26th May 2019, 01:43
but the question remains who is going to outlay the first big dollars for upgrages onto more efficient newer types and tussle with CASA?Well aren't we seeing the answer to that? Cobham. They ran their Ejet for three years and now have another.

Any operator in Australia who wants to use this type will not have much of a "tussle" with CASA as they are a known type, unlike say an SSJ or Airbus 220.

Berealgetreal
26th May 2019, 02:49
Alliance Airlines, Virgin Australia to launch Melbourne to Kununurra flights in 2020 (https://thewest.com.au/travel/air-aviation/alliance-airlines-virgin-australia-to-launch-melbourne-to-kununurra-flights-in-2020-ng-b881210949z?utm_campaign=share-icons&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&tid=1558815716729)

More VA flying to Alliance. At this rate, VA will just become a travel agent selling tickets for Alliance.

E170, ATR, Skywest, Tiger, Alliance, E190, none of these things have had any effect on career progression for VAA pilots apparently.

The idea is to farm off as much as possible regardless of the outcome or product. Wonít be long youíll see VARA and Alliance on the triangle.

Its hilarious watching your career go down the drain.

Chocks Away
27th May 2019, 01:17
Icarus, please read IT ALL, before shooting off... especially my last sentence! :cool:

The Green Goblin
27th May 2019, 02:11
With Qantas probably getting more of a cut from the flying than Virgin (if the stake is approved).

Alliance Airlines, Virgin Australia to launch Melbourne to Kununurra flights in 2020 (https://thewest.com.au/travel/air-aviation/alliance-airlines-virgin-australia-to-launch-melbourne-to-kununurra-flights-in-2020-ng-b881210949z?utm_campaign=share-icons&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&tid=1558815716729)

More VA flying to Alliance. At this rate, VA will just become a travel agent selling tickets for Alliance.