Alcock and Brown

[shipiskan]

Greetings
I am a recently retired Airbus Captain living in St.John's Newfoundland, Canada. No doubt many of you are aware that June 14th is the 100th anniversary of the first non stop transatlantic flight. John Alcock and Arthur Whitten Brown left from a grass meadow just up the road from my house and arrived in Clifden Ireland roughly 16.5 hours later, thus proving it was possible to do what many of you do on a regular basis.

St.John's and Clifden are planning major celebrations to mark this historic event and I'm wondering if some of you might be interested in letting your passengers know on June 14th.

[Mooneyboy]

Think there is a very well written article in Flypast magazine this month about Alcock and Brown.

[gwillie]

.

“Yesterday we were in America…”


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x781/key_1_427322a27b3273ddfb638c1cd2efd1623f1063a6.jpg

FlyPast FEATURE - Alcock and Brown Translantic Flight (https://flypast.keypublishing.com/2019/05/01/feature-alcock-and-brown-transatlantic-flight/)
. (https://flypast.keypublishing.com/2019/05/01/feature-alcock-and-brown-transatlantic-flight/)

[DaveReidUK]

FlyPast FEATURE - Alcock and Brown Translantic Flight (https://flypast.keypublishing.com/2019/05/01/feature-alcock-and-brown-transatlantic-flight/)

Before anyone gets too excited, you need to buy the magazine to read the whole article.

[Loose rivets]

This message would be too short . . . if I hadn't written this:

After his celebrated 1927 journey from New York to Paris, Lindbergh made a courteous nod to his daring predecessors, declaring: “Alcock and Brown showed me the way.”

[Toolonginthisjob]

Hi shipiskan

I for one really appreciate the nudge. These events absolutely should be celebrated. Sadly, I’m not flying on the 14th, however I am crossing the Atlantic at least four times next month. I will reflect on their adventure, and mention it to our customers on as many occasions as I reasonably can.

Enjoy the celebrations.

[echobeach]

This is utterly brilliant. I was very disappointed not to be able to read the rest of that article in fly past. It’s topical
given the efforts of the impressive single engine flights to cross the Atlantic on the private forum. This flight with the kit they had to hand then is somewhat humbling. A sextant !!

I hope I will be forgive for posting this paragraph from my google search. The ‘right stuff’ comes to mind.

At 5.00pm they had to fly through thick fog.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14) This was serious because it prevented Brown from being able to navigate using his sextant.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15) Blind flying in fog or cloud should only be undertaken with gyroscopic instruments, which they did not have, and Alcock twice lost control of the aircraft and nearly hit the sea after a spiral dive.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15) Alcock also had to deal with a broken trim control that made the plane become very nose-heavy as fuel was consumed.[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15)

At 12:15am Brown got a glimpse of the stars and could use his sextant, and found that they were on course.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15) Their electric heating suits had failed, making them very cold in the open cockpit.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)

Then at 3:00am they flew into a large snowstorm.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14) They were drenched by rain, their instruments iced up, and the plane was in danger of icing and becoming unflyable.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14) The carburettors also iced up; it has been said that Brown had to climb out onto the wings to clear the engines, although he made no mention of that.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15)

[shipiskan]

Went to a talk by Tony Alcock last night. John Alcock's nephew and ex RAF. Some interesting tidbits and some insights into the characters of the two men. Brown was shot down twice in WW1. Alcock assembled his own fighter from written off machines!

[foxmoth]

I am always annoyed when people claim that Lindberg was the first to cross the Atlantic, even before this there were the Airship and also the seaplane ones that took 23 days with ships along the route but to me Alcock and Brown was the most significant one!

[evansb]

All things considered, the Vimy was a mechanical piece of crap. Lindbergh's aircraft was mechanically and aerodynamically superior to the Vimy and Lindbergh also flew a longer distance. I have also concluded that the French Levasseur PL.8, piloted by Nungesser & Coli was inferior to Lindbergh's efficient Ryan NYP high-wing monoplane, which was powered by a single air-cooled Wright radial engine. Simplicity. It works, sometimes.

Note that I am NOT an American citizen, nor do I idolise Charles Lindbergh, even though I have a first edition of his 1927 book "We", and a second edition of his book "North to the Orient", published in 1935. Solving the tragic disappearance of Nungesser & Coli is intriguing. Did they crash somewhere in Maine perhaps?

[foxmoth]

That Lindbergs aircraft was superior is hardly surprising as it was 8 years after Alcock and Brown and specifically designed for the crossing so I think that gives them even more credit - Whilst it is a significant achievment I fail to see the real significance in a Solo flight as far as developing commercial aviation goes - Alcock and Brown carried some mail so actually a commercial flight!

[bill fly]

Also some nostalgia info on this thread: https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/601401-daily-mail-trans-atlantic-air-race-1969-a.html?highlight=daily+mail+air+race

As for the Vimy being a "piece of crap", you can look at that two ways -

1. It did the job
2. If it was a "p of c", then that makes the achievement of A and B even greater

[Paying Guest]

Went to a talk by Tony Alcock last night. John Alcock's nephew and ex RAF. Some interesting tidbits and some insights into the characters of the two men. Brown was shot down twice in WW1. Alcock assembled his own fighter from written off machines!

Was that talk in Canada? Tony "Buzzy" Alcock was OC29 back in F4 days.

[racasanman]

Alcock was born in Manchester and Brown, although born in Scotland moved to Manchester at an early age so it is quite fitting that there is a statue commemorating their achievement at Manchester airport.

[Maoraigh1]

"That Lindbergs aircraft was superior is hardly surprising as it was 8 years after Alcock and Brown "
At that time, aircraft improvement was fast.
In 1908, 11 years earlier, one of the Wright Brothers predicted to Congress that an aircraft would fly across the Atlantic by the end of the century, or even by 1950.

[chrishp22]

Just in case it's relevant, the London Airport (LHR) Alcock & Brown statue is now at the Heathrow Academy

[Herod]

Back in '69, when I was flying Wessex from Odiham, I had the pleasure of flying formation on the replica, that had been built to celebrate the 50th anniversary. It had diverted to Odiham due wind, and when it departed a lot of press wanted pictures. Sadly, I didn't have my camera! That aircraft was destroyed by fire shortly afterwards at Barton (I think), and was rebuilt as a non-flying replica. It is now dismantled and in good care at the RAF Museum's store in Stafford. Looking at it, one can get an appreciation of the bravery of the crew. It's tiny and fragile.

[DaveReidUK]

Just in case it's relevant, the London Airport (LHR) Alcock & Brown statue is now at the Heathrow Academy

It's actually in Ireland at the moment, where it will remain for the next few weeks.

Clifden festival recalls historic transatlantic flight (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/clifden-festival-recalls-historic-transatlantic-flight-924592.html)

[b1lanc]

Solving the tragic disappearance of Nungesser & Coli is intriguing. Did they crash somewhere in Maine perhaps?

The fate of L'Oiseau Blanc has always intrigued me. There were some reports of an aircraft flying over Lake Winnipesaukee New Hampshire area at the time - something that would have been very rare. One of Nungesser's relatives spent some time searching in the area as well Washington County in Maine. Have to wonder if they would have made it traveling west to east.

[shipiskan]

Was that talk in Canada? Tony "Buzzy" Alcock was OC29 back in F4 days.
Yes in St.John's. He was guest of our committee which is organizing the commemoration.

[shipiskan]

Was that talk in Canada? Tony "Buzzy" Alcock was OC29 back in F4 days

Yes in St.John's. He's s guest of the committee organizing the commemoration.

[FlexibleResponse]

An excellent and detailed account of the flight can be read at "The Aviation History On-Line Museum".

Captain John Alcock and Lieutenant Arthur Whitten Brown (http://www.aviation-history.com/airmen/alcock.htm)

[cooperplace]

Were mechanics also on the Alcock and Brown flight? Ross and Keith Smith's Vimy had Bennett and Shiers on board as well, and their extraordinary bravery is often overlooked.

[farefield]

"All things considered, the Vimy was a mechanical piece of crap. Lindbergh's aircraft was mechanically and aerodynamically superior to the Vimy".

Others have replied to this and I agree with them, you only have to note the pace of developments in aviation to realise that 8 years is a long time. 10 years before A and B crossed the Atlantic, Bleriot won £1000 for being the first to fly across the English Channel.

[DaveReidUK]

Were mechanics also on the Alcock and Brown flight? Ross and Keith Smith's Vimy had Bennett and Shiers on board as well, and their extraordinary bravery is often overlooked.

No.

Mechanics would have been of limited use on board Alcock and Brown's non-stop transatlantic flight, whereas they would have earned their keep many times over on Ross and Keith Smith's 27-day, 18-stop London to Darwin marathon.

[WB627]

Second shoot down or it might have been engine trouble depends which account you read, either way resulted in serious injuries, capture and eventual repatriation due to his injuries.

Hopefully one of these links works -

www.pprune.org/showthread.php?t=609101&referrerid=301760

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/609101-harold-william-medlicott-11th-feb-1893-21st-may-1918-a.html

[cooperplace]

No.

Mechanics would have been of limited use on board Alcock and Brown's non-stop transatlantic flight, whereas they would have earned their keep many times over on Ross and Keith Smith's 27-day, 18-stop London to Darwin marathon.

Hi Dave,
yes indeed, that's a considerable under-statement. Bennett and Shiers performed with immense distinction and bravery; without them the flight would not have been successful. Long story, for another day.

[PastTense]

If anyone wants more detail about the flight read Brown's book, Flying the Atlantic in Sixteen Hours, with a Discussion of Aircraft in Commerce and Transportation available as a free PDF at:
https://ia802609.us.archive.org/30/items/flyingatlanticin00browrich/flyingatlanticin00browrich.pdf

[Herod]

PastTense. Thanks for that link. It's downloaded and saved, to be read at leisure.

[Odins Raven]

Alcock was born in Manchester and Brown, although born in Scotland moved to Manchester at an early age so it is quite fitting that there is a statue commemorating their achievement at Manchester airport.

It’s now at the transport interchange between the terminals. Unfortunately the airport don’t really significantly highlight what the statue is or why it’s there. Maybe their intention is to dedicate the whole airport to the event from 100 years ago, as the terminals to this day represent how air travel was in its infancy. Uncomfortable and expensive, filled with Edwardian technology.

[campbeex]

This is utterly brilliant. I was very disappointed not to be able to read the rest of that article in fly past.
You could try buying the magazine.

[eagleflyer]

Were mechanics also on the Alcock and Brown flight? Ross and Keith Smith's Vimy had Bennett and Shiers on board as well, and their extraordinary bravery is often overlooked.

I´ve still got a book I read when I was a kid, and I´ve just checked if I remember the story correctly. Brown apparently climbed out of the cockpit at night over the Atlantic to remove ice from the engine air intake. Not sure if that is true though....
But even if not, hats off to those adventurers, most of the stuff we´re doing nowadays seems trivial compared to this endeavour.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Thread drift I know, but in the G.O.Ds the Heathrow statue (which, in those days, was right by a heavily used security gate) was always refereed, irreverently, to as the "Sammy Davis Junior" statue.
Tootle pip!!

[megan]

Brown apparently climbed out of the cockpit at night over the Atlantic to remove ice from the engine air intakeWhile it's not known if the story is factual, the old timers certainly did pull off some amazing acts.

Sir Patrick Gordon Taylor, GC, OBE, MC, Australian aviator of some fame - During the 1935 Australia-New Zealand airmail flight with Charles Kingsford Smith, the starboard engine failed and the crew decided to return to Sydney, where the aircraft was buffeted by strong winds. It was decided that fuel and cargo must be jettisoned. During these conditions, Taylor made six journeys outside the cabin of the Southern Cross, climbing along the under-wing strut to drain the oil from the useless motor and transfer this to the overheating port motor. Taylor's actions, with the addition of Kingsford Smith's flying skills, resulted in the plane making its way back to land safely. Taylor was later awarded the Empire Gallantry Medal for his actions, which was later exchanged for the George Cross

[Airbubba]

Thread drift I know, but in the G.O.Ds the Heathrow statue (which, in those days, was right by a heavily used security gate) was always refereed, irreverently, to as the "Sammy Davis Junior" statue.

It sure was. :ok:

[cooperplace]

While it's not known if the story is factual, the old timers certainly did pull off some amazing acts.

Sir Patrick Gordon Taylor, GC, OBE, MC, Australian aviator of some fame - During the 1935 Australia-New Zealand airmail flight with Charles Kingsford Smith, the starboard engine failed and the crew decided to return to Sydney, where the aircraft was buffeted by strong winds. It was decided that fuel and cargo must be jettisoned. During these conditions, Taylor made six journeys outside the cabin of the Southern Cross, climbing along the under-wing strut to drain the oil from the useless motor and transfer this to the overheating port motor. Taylor's actions, with the addition of Kingsford Smith's flying skills, resulted in the plane making its way back to land safely. Taylor was later awarded the Empire Gallantry Medal for his actions, which was later exchanged for the George Cross

Bennett and Shiers, on the Smith's voyage, are said to have done some "outside cockpit" work as well. They were tough back in those days.

[Gipsy Queen]

While it's not known if the story is factual, the old timers certainly did pull off some amazing acts.
the under-wing strut to drain the oil from the useless motor and transfer this to the overheating port motor. Taylor's actions, with the addition of Kingsford Smith's flying skills, resulted in the plane making its way back to land safely. Taylor was later awarded the Empire Gallantry Medal for his actions, which was later exchanged for the George Cross

And here's me thinking myself frightfully brave for leaping into the warm Caribbean to jump up and down on the starboard wheel to get the Mallard's missing green to come alive. No GC for me; but Chalks did buy me a rum punch on Bimini.

[Lou Scannon]

On a lighter note: I read that the press always had some confusion as to who was who with the pair.

It was resolved by the Pilot calling from the front:
"Remember, it's Allcock in front!"

Which was followed by the Navigator adding:
"And a Brown behind!".

[bill fly]

On a lighter note: I read that the press always had some confusion as to who was who with the pair.

It was resolved by the Pilot calling from the front:
"Remember, it's Allcock in front!"

Which was followed by the Navigator adding:
"And a Brown behind!".

Well actually they sat side by side. The rear cockpit had a tank/rescue boat in it.

On that other subject, as they said in BKK, “You pilots are all the same - big watch, big cock and always pay by cheque...” Never mind - I’ve got the watch anyway.

[Repos]

I know this the DM, but is it fair coment about lack of recognition of the event?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7068589/Why-100-years-Britain-doing-remember-magnificent-men-Asks-ROBERT-HARDMAN.html

[bill fly]

I know this the DM, but is it fair coment about lack of recognition of the event?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7068589/Why-100-years-Britain-doing-remember-magnificent-men-Asks-ROBERT-HARDMAN.html

Nice link Repos, thanks.

The point was that quite a few people approached them for involvement in a centenary participation and response was luke warm to zero. A bit surprising given their involvement in trans-Atlantic events to date.

Good that they came up with a piece though and they have provided some back numbers on request. I guess things cost more these days.

B

[triskele]

My father was a Clifden lad and relates the locals going to see the Vimy, in a bog (not far from Marconis' shack that received the first radio signal cross atlantic). So inquisitive were the natives that parts of the Vimy disappeared. A local militia guard was supplied, who apparently knicked the rest. So, if you want a Vickers Vimy in bits, try the attics in Clifden. Warning....an exceeding hospital village.

[magruder1980]

Full of doctors and nurses then??? :ok:

[triskele]

Nothing about Clifden would surprise me, but each time I leave I don't seem to have a clear recollection of..anything.

[Trav a la]

There is also a commemorative plaque created by John Cassisy in Manchesters beautiful Town Hall. Unfortunately I believe it is still closed for restoration works.

For anyone interested there is more information to be found here....
John Cassidy - Sculptor - Albert Square (http://johncassidy.org.uk/albertsquare.html)

Here is the main text...


http://johncassidy.org.uk/alcock.jpg

The other Cassidy panel in the sculpture hall was made to commemorate the historic first transatlantic flight, made by Manchester men Alcock and Brown. The tablet tells its own story in detail:

This tablet is erected by the Corporation of Manchester to record the great achievement of two Manchester men, Captain Sir John Alcock, K.B.E., D.S.C., and Lieutenant Sit Arthur Whitten Brown, K.B.E. who on the fifteenth day of June, 1919, were the first to fly without a stop across the Atlantic Ocean from America to the British Isles, the time taken in covering the distance being 15 hours 57 minutes, the distance being 1,950 English statute miles and the aeroplane used being entirely of British manufacture.

(Other sources differ slightly from this inscription in both time and distance.) Either side of the inscriptions are portraits of the two aviators. The tablet was unveiled by the Lord Mayor on 2 November 1921, and the next day The Times reported:

The tablet shows the figure of an American Indian mounted on horseback gazing across the ocean at the disappearing aeroplane, towards which on the other side a figure of Britannia stretches out a welcoming hand.

Two gold medals especially struck to Mr Cassidy's designs for the Corporation were presented, one to the father of the late Sir John Alcock, and the other to Sir A.W. Brown.

At least one other Alcock and Brown artifact by Cassidy is known to exist: a round medallion - perhaps a design for the gold medals - in a private collection in the USA.

The story of Alcock and Brown's famous flight in a Vickers Vimy aircraft from Newfoundland to Ireland, wiling a £10,000 prize offered by the Daily Mail has been often told (Manchester Guardian report (http://century.guardian.co.uk/1910-1919/Story/0,,99291,00.html)), and is commemorated in both Britain and Ireland. Both were knighted by King George V soon after their flight.

Brown, the navigator, lived on until 1948; born in Glasgow in 1886, he was brought up in Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Manchester and worked as an engineer for the Westinghouse company. The house at 6 Oswald Road, Chorlton-cum-Hardy is adorned with a 'blue plaque' in his memory

Alcock, the pilot, was born born in 1892 in Seymour Grove, Old Trafford, and later lived at 6 Kingswood Road, Fallowfield where his life is marked by a 'blue plaque.' According to Wikipedia he 'was present at the Science Museum in London on 15 December 1919 when the recovered Vimy was presented to the nation. Three days later he was flying a new Vickers amphibious plane, the Type 54 Viking, to the first postwar aeronautical exhibition in Paris when he crashed in fog at Cote d'Everard, near Rouen, Normandy stalling such that a wing hit a tree. He died before medical assistance arrived.' He is buried, like John Cassidy, in Southern Cemetery, Manchester.Tailplane: the Manchester Airport memorial http://johncassidy.org.uk/airport.jpg

There is another Alcock and Brown memorial in Manchester, an aluminium figure of a flying man, created by Eliazbeth Frink and installed in 1964 in the then-new Terminal at Manchester Airport. It has been controversial ever since the commission was awarded to Frink: her model of the planned work was described by Councillor Hopkins of the Airport Committee as a 'bewitched, bothered and bewildered budgerigar.' Eventually, after much dispute, it was completed and installed at a cost of £3250. Members of Alcock's family were particularly unimpressed.

The controversy was revived in 2008: According to an article in Manchester Evening News of 9 September:

'The sculpture ... drew controversy when installed in the airport's Terminal 1 in 1964, with one relative describing the winged figure as "sordid, vulgar and obscene." The statue was later moved from the terminal's arrivals hall [with the approval of the artist] to a garden next to the airport police station, and then brought into a departure lounge area. It was moved to its latest home in a connecting corridor between Terminal 1 and the airport's train station five years ago.'

Neville Alcock, the pilot's nephew, is understandably unhappy about the location. He told the reporter: 'I know we can't have these memorials up forever but if they are going to be displayed they should be kept in good condition. I went to Manchester Airport recently and managed to locate the statue after some effort. It used to have pride of place in the airport and now it is tucked away in a corner. No-one would spot it unless they made a special effort. The stonework is really dirty and no effort has been made to keep it looking clean.'

An Airport spokeswoman defended the location said it was regularly spotted by those travelling from the train station to the terminal buildings. She said: 'We consulted on where it should go and the decision was to put it in the station building. Everyone who takes the train to and from the airport can see it.'

(The Airport authorities have also removed from the terminal in 2008 the four Venetian glass chandeliers (http://www.cube.org.uk/thecity/archisnap_detail.asp?id=71) by Bruno Zaneti of Murano, which were to many people of 'a certain age' were real memories of their first visit the airport as a child.)

Mr Alcock also pointed out that exhibits at the Museum of Science and Industry - including the stuffed remains of the flying duo's mascot cat Jimmy - were no longer on display and that a memorial plaque in Manchester Town Hall had been placed in a barely-visible corner. An allegation that is hard to deny.

[Jhieminga]

Last time I visited Cosford, Twinkletoes was still on display:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x644/twinkletoes_1b76aa5d95758b7f19c3c5e14e180f61d5d02a30.jpg

[nosefirsteverytime]

Looks like they’re opening the local airfield (built to provide an island service that fell through.)
https://flyinginireland.com/2019/05/cleggan-aerodrome-set-to-open-next-month/
(The island airfield, Inisbofin, is painted and serviceable, but, “closed”. I’ve heard stories though...)

What I will say is that if you’re considering flying in, be aware of the topology of the area. Joyce Country is to the East, an extensively mountainous area with peaks up to 800m ASL and over. Approaches are estimated to be 04 and 22. Tully Mountain lies under the 22 approach, roughly 3.5NM distant, at a height of 356 meters ASL. (Airfield roughly 50-70m ASL). Also smaller hill 172m ASL, roughly 2NM distant.
04 approach is down the slope of the hill, height 115m ASL at 1NM distant. Over water before that.
This note is for information purposes, do not use for navigation.

[OPENDOOR]

If anyone wants more detail about the flight read Brown's book, Flying the Atlantic in Sixteen Hours, with a Discussion of Aircraft in Commerce and Transportation available as a free PDF at:
https://ia802609.us.archive.org/30/items/flyingatlanticin00browrich/flyingatlanticin00browrich.pdf

Thank you for that. It's very well written and interesting. Brown is extremely erudite yet self-effacing and remarkably prescient about the future of aviation.

Well worth a read.

[bnt]

The centenary is being celebrated in Ireland, with the Alcock & Brown 100 Festival (https://alcockandbrown100.com/). A local brewery (https://www.bridewellbrewery.ie/) is producing two beers for the occasion, one for Alcock and one for Brown. No prizes for guessing what style of beer the latter is.

[OPENDOOR]

Extract from the book Past Tense posted Flying the Atlantic in Sixteen Hours by Sir Arthur Whitten Brown;

AFTERMATH OF ARRIVAL



Alcock and I awoke to find ourselves in
a wonderland of seeming unreality the
product of violent change from utter isolation
during the long flight to unexpected contact with
crowds of people interested in us.

To begin with, getting up in the morning,
after a satisfactory sleep of nine hours, was
strange. In our eastward flight of two thousand
miles we had overtaken time, in less than
the period between one sunset and another, to
the extent of three and a half hours. Our physical
systems having accustomed themselves to
habits regulated by the clocks of Newfoundland,
we were reluctant to rise at 7 A. M. for sub-consciousness
suggested that it was but 3:30 A. M.

This difficulty of adjustment to the sudden
change in time lasted for several days. Probably
it will be experienced by all passengers
traveling on the rapid trans-ocean air services
of the future those who complete a westward
journey becoming early risers without effort,
those who land after an eastward flight becoming
unconsciously lazy in the mornings, until
the jolting effect of the dislocation wears off,
and habit has accustomed itself to the new conditions.

[shipiskan]

Nice to see the feedback. I just uploaded a jpeg of the commemorative beer being made here in CYYT (St.John's, Newfoundland). Celebrations here include an Aviator's ball on June 14th. A fly in by up to 16 floatplanes and 4 helicopters at Qidi Vidi Lake. The Vimy was assembled there. Local carrier Provincial Airlines is painting a Dash 8 to resemble the Vimy. There are theatrical productions and lots of media coverage. A pretty good effort to compliment what's going on over in Clifden.

[Herod]

Posted by Jhieminga:

Last time I visited Cosford, Twinkletoes was still on display:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....61d5d02a30.jpg (https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x644/twinkletoes_1b76aa5d95758b7f19c3c5e14e180f61d5d02a30.jpg)

It is still there. I saw it this afternoon.

[Mechta]

Nothing about Clifden would surprise me, but each time I leave I don't seem to have a clear recollection of..anything.

I have two memories of Clifden. Firstly, having driven a mile or more along a rough track in the rain, to get as as close to the Vimy's arrival point as possible, tramping across the bog to try and reach the sacred place, only to return to the car for Mrs Mechta to ask, 'Remind me what why we are here?' Secondly, in the town museum, the potcheen still, so no visitor would be left in any doubt what parts would be required and how to build one. Could this explain triskele's subsequent amnesia?

[Jhieminga]

I’ve added a page to my website about the 1969 air race, and it includes a couple of references to Alcock and Brown as well: Daily Mail Trans-Atlantic Air Race (http://www.vc10.net/Memories/DailyMailRace.html)

[ICT_SLB]

I first saw a photograph of the Alcock & Brown Vickers Vimy when it was one of a couple of visual questions during my interview for my Student Apprentice grant at BAC Weybridge - obviously during takeoff from near Torbay as you could see a clapboard house in the background and the ground was falling away. Fast forward about fifteen years and I finally get to visit the "Purple Palace" Management Area at Canadair in Montreal. In the corridor is the self-same photograph! I suddenly realised I joined Canadian Vickers! Forward another ten years, and I get my own view of that valley but with the ground rising towards us as we do the first "for real' CAT IIIa Approaches and one landing on the Canadair CRJ200 Regional Jet using a HGS (Head-Up Guidance System) - all under the control of Torbay Marine Radio!

Tried to attach a scan of the Takeoff but "no Security Tag" so...
Having done a search, this link is to the same photograph: https://connachttribune.ie/epic-moment-in-flying-history/

[Vasco dePilot]

This article just advances many of the myths. It’s important to learn the facts. The two factual records of the flight were written by Alcock (a brief report published in September 1919) and by Brown (in a co-written report published in February 1920). From these two pieces of verifiable history, many writers have embellished and created their own interpretation of the crossing. I strongly encourage you to read “Yesterday we were in America” by Brendan Lynch which is carefully based on the two reports referred earlier and also fully referenced for other details.
They were brilliant aviators ( particularly Alcock who held the control wheel for 16 hours and 28 minutes in and this without a trimming system, autopilot or artificial horizon).
Most important, Brown did not climb out on the wings and clear ice from the engine intakes. This myth originated with Graham Wallace’s book published in 1955.
[/QUOTE]This is utterly brilliant. I was very disappointed not to be able to read the rest of that article in fly past. It’s topical
given the efforts of the impressive single engine flights to cross the Atlantic on the private forum. This flight with the kit they had to hand then is somewhat humbling. A sextant !!

I hope I will be forgive for posting this paragraph from my google search. The ‘right stuff’ comes to mind.

At 5.00pm they had to fly through thick fog.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14) This was serious because it prevented Brown from being able to navigate using his sextant.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15) Blind flying in fog or cloud should only be undertaken with gyroscopic instruments, which they did not have, and Alcock twice lost control of the aircraft and nearly hit the sea after a spiral dive.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15) Alcock also had to deal with a broken trim control that made the plane become very nose-heavy as fuel was consumed.[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15)

At 12:15am Brown got a glimpse of the stars and could use his sextant, and found that they were on course.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15) Their electric heating suits had failed, making them very cold in the open cockpit.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)

Then at 3:00am they flew into a large snowstorm.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14) They were drenched by rain, their instruments iced up, and the plane was in danger of icing and becoming unflyable.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14) The carburettors also iced up; it has been said that Brown had to climb out onto the wings to clear the engines, although he made no mention of that.[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-avhist-14)
[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown#cite_note-fglobal-15)

[Vasco dePilot]

All things considered, the Vimy was a mechanical piece of crap. Lindbergh's aircraft was mechanically and aerodynamically superior to the Vimy and Lindbergh also flew a longer distance. I have also concluded that the French Levasseur PL.8, piloted by Nungesser & Coli was inferior to Lindbergh's efficient Ryan NYP high-wing monoplane, which was powered by a single air-cooled Wright radial engine. Simplicity. It works, sometimes.

Note that I am NOT an American citizen, nor do I idolise Charles Lindbergh, even though I have a first edition of his 1927 book "We", and a second edition of his book "North to the Orient", published in 1935. Solving the tragic disappearance of Nungesser & Coli is intriguing. Did they crash somewhere in Maine perhaps?
you are right in ways, but what you have not acknowledged is the fact that the Vimy was WW1 postwar bomber technology, Spirit of St Louis had the benefit of 7 years of rapid aeronautical engineering development. For example, Alcock’s disorientation in thick cloud was inevitable because he had no horizon. Sperry patented their artificial horizon in 1924.

[Vasco dePilot]

"That Lindbergs aircraft was superior is hardly surprising as it was 8 years after Alcock and Brown "
At that time, aircraft improvement was fast.
In 1908, 11 years earlier, one of the Wright Brothers predicted to Congress that an aircraft would fly across the Atlantic by the end of the century, or even by 1950.
ooh I like that, it’s a really important quote. Can u give me a verified reference please? I would really appreciate it👍

[Vasco dePilot]

Back in '69, when I was flying Wessex from Odiham, I had the pleasure of flying formation on the replica, that had been built to celebrate the 50th anniversary. It had diverted to Odiham due wind, and when it departed a lot of press wanted pictures. Sadly, I didn't have my camera! That aircraft was destroyed by fire shortly afterwards at Barton (I think), and was rebuilt as a non-flying replica. It is now dismantled and in good care at the RAF Museum's store in Stafford. Looking at it, one can get an appreciation of the bravery of the crew. It's tiny and fragile.
thanks for that background information

[Vasco dePilot]

If anyone wants more detail about the flight read Brown's book, Flying the Atlantic in Sixteen Hours, with a Discussion of Aircraft in Commerce and Transportation available as a free PDF at:
https://ia802609.us.archive.org/30/items/flyingatlanticin00browrich/flyingatlanticin00browrich.pdf
well said.
adventurous authors have created myths from this carefully written account.

[Bergerie1]

100 years ago tomorrow (15 June) Alcock and Brown made the first non-stop crossing of the Atlantic. A long article in this link below by the BBC which is well worth reading. But I think Brown's navigation owed more to spherical trigonometry than calculus!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/bM5diyl48K/alcock

[shipiskan]

On June 14th 1919 two stout hearted and daring individuals climbed into a machine fashioned from wood, fabric, metal and the latest in human ingenuity and set out to push human achievement to another level. Roughly 160,000 combined heartbeats later they had succeeded.
There's an old saying in the flying community. Aviation is hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. I think Alcock and Brown's flight could better be described as hours of calm anxiety punctuated by terror measured in minutes, not moments. I flew airplanes for 40 years and I suppose all my anxious moments didn't add up to an hour.
Try to imagine those two, suspended in those 2000 odd miles of unexplored territory. How utterly alone they were. How removed physically and perhaps spiritually from their fellow creatures behind and ahead of them. In cloud, at night, out in the elements. Their open cockpit faintly illuminated by the instrument lighting which enabled Alcock to see the clinometer. An inverted semi circular glass tube with an air bubble which was a parody of an artificial horizon and which he had to monitor for all but the brief times when they were clear of cloud. What else enabled him to keep the Vimy on an even keel? The small pressures he felt as the machine talked to him in the new language of yaw, roll and pitch and his seat translated. All good until they hit heavy turbulence. Loss of control! In a spin. The airplane fully stalled. Descending violently but slowly. The two friends hoping for a glimpse of the ocean and enough altitude to recover. Salt spray on their lips after Alcock sorted things out. Time for one of Agnes Dooley's sandwiches and a beer.
Brown's familiarity with the stars! Something I envied the old pilots for. We navigated by beacons. NDBs, VORs. My old Captains would look outside when we broke out on top of cloud in the high Arctic. Look around at the friendly stars and nod to themselves. Nod to Brown. Nod to Magellan. A lost art which was as familiar to Brown as finding my way round my house is to me. He was out by 10 miles after 2000. That's not out. That's bang on.
I'll stretch things a bit and say they gave me a job. In the 1990s when I was flying Boeing 767s across the Atlantic I never thought much about the fact that someone had to do it first. Or else I suppose we'd still be crossing by sea. At 30 west we switched over. "Good night Gander" followed by "Hello Shanwick" on the cacophonous HF radio. We were about 4 hours out then, having departed Toronto. They would have been about 8 hours out of St.John's. Now there are thousands of people over the Atlantic every night. All slipstreaming off the Vimy.
Like Columbus, Lindbergh got the glory. Arriving in Paris 8 years later he said "Alcock and Brown showed me the way". But the press knew better. Lindy was first. Earhart was first next.
Brown hoped their flight would unite mankind and make us realize the useless "narcissism of our minor differences", as I think Frued put it. Some hope! They both knew better. Both shot down during the war. Brown's wounded leg tormenting him the whole 16 and a half hours.
But they did a grand thing. And they reminded us that there are grand things to do and with a bit of pluck, we can do them. And one day we will leave the Earth and go to Mars. And someone will have to go first. And whoever it is will be stout hearted and daring and we will be at our best through them. Just as we were at our best through Alcock and Brown.

[Consol]

Great post. Well worth remembering just what an achievement it was in 1919 and how brave Alcock and Brown were to attempt the crossing.
Sad to say my operator (on the Atlantic) failed to take any notice of it and I suspect many others too.
As we sip coffee and watch our GPS guided aircraft find their way across the pond to the first hint of dawn in the east whilst our passengers snooze we should remember who proved it could be down first.

[Ant T]

You write like Ernest Gann... (Fate is the Hunter is my favourite book...)

[DaveReidUK]

You write like Ernest Gann... (Fate is the Hunter is my favourite book...)

More from Gary Hebbard here: https://aviationhistorynl.com/

[India Four Two]

A very nice informative article from the BBC:
The daredevils who flew across an ocean

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/bM5diyl48K/alcock

[MurphyWasRight]

Agreed very nice post, thank you.
I almost skipped this thread thinking it would be some marketing drivel about Airbus and Boeing,
Fortunately I glanced at the 'mouse tip' preview.

[stalling attitude]

Amazing achievement by two incredibly brave men.

[Herod]

An excellent posting; thank you. The BBC one is good as well.

I was conducting a tour at the RAF Museum at Cosford this morning, and made a point of the fact we were standing by "Twinkletoes". I think that is as far as commemorations go. I'm not aware of anything planned in UK.

[Hotel Tango]

Great post shipiskan! Thank you.

[DaveReidUK]

Seconded - a nice bit of writing, Gary.

[david340r]

I had a very interesting visit to the RR Heritage Centre in Derby yesterday, which is home to one of their engines.

[oceancrosser]

Great piece of writing shipiskan. An amazing feat by Alcock and Brown.
The late Steve Fossett crossed the Atlantic in a Vimy replica in 2013. On a Trans-Atlantic crossing I spoke with them briefly and relayed a position report.

[bill fly]

Great post. Thank you,

Are there any commercial pilots these days who use the stars even for a basic sanity check on their heading/route?

When I joined xxx-air in the 80s there were Captains around who had been familiar with astro navigation and knew many stars still. It was nice to fly with them. Some had even been navigators in the past.
Earlier, in the xxx Force, astro was being used as a backup system (limited nav) and the Copilot did the timing, the Nav Radar the shooting while standing in centre cockpit and the Nav Plotter the calculations. These shots took a minute and averaged out the errors you could get in a single shot such as Brown was able to make - theoretically - a bit of turbulence could upset that theory though.

[oceancrosser]

When I joined xxx-air in the 80s there were Captains around who had been familiar with astro navigation and knew many stars still. It was nice to fly with them. Some had even been navigators in the past.

True, I was lucky enough to catch that generation as well as a young F/O. Some of these guys were a wealth of knowledge and would enjoy giving a young pilot an interesting lesson. Sadly, little of it stuck in my head.

[Bergerie1]

Does any one know whether Sir Arthur Brown's sextant still exists and if so where it is?

[OPENDOOR]

On this 100th anniversary day I wonder what Alcock and Brown would think of this?

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/654x377/atlantic_dfc1f32ed3aa4015550fa7d774845a3462f21c2e.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

On this 100th anniversary day I wonder what Alcock and Brown would think of this?

I think it would all go completely over their heads.

[bill fly]

On this 100th anniversary day I wonder what Alcock and Brown would think of this?

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/654x377/atlantic_dfc1f32ed3aa4015550fa7d774845a3462f21c2e.jpg

Brown had thoughts in his book on the future of aviation. He envisaged passenger travel but as he could not imagine large enough airliners he thought the future lay in airships.
Bet he would have been impressed by the nat track system, the nav and comms of today

[bill fly]

This from CNN

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/alcock-and-brown-monument-ireland/index.html

Some good stuff, some uninformed and some nice pictures

[D.B.er]

Does anyone e know what instruments they had then? Clearly they were able to penetrate cloud.

[Vasco dePilot]

Does any one know whether Sir Arthur Brown's sextant still exists and if so where it is?
Browns sextant still exists. I have a photo of it taken in the storage of the RAF museum at Hendon.

[Jhieminga]

The only photo I've been able to find of the Vimy's cockpit is here: https://www.ssplprints.com/image/82758/the-cockpit-of-alcock-and-browns-vickers-vimy-aircraft-1919

That only shows a compass, altimeter and a slip indicator. Although they penetrated clouds, they were not exactly equipped to do so. In contrast, Lindbergh's Spirit was better equipped for this. Then again, the instruments in the Vimy were all that was available at the time.

[Bergerie1]

Vasco, Thanks for that, I'm so pleased. Having once held a Flight Nav Licence and spent some years navigating on cross channel races out of Cowes, I still retain an intereset in those arcane arts. Are you able to post the photo of the sextant?

[FlightlessParrot]

The only photo I've been able to find of the Vimy's cockpit is here: https://www.ssplprints.com/image/82758/the-cockpit-of-alcock-and-browns-vickers-vimy-aircraft-1919

That only shows a compass, altimeter and a slip indicator. Although they penetrated clouds, they were not exactly equipped to do so. In contrast, Lindbergh's Spirit was better equipped for this. Then again, the instruments in the Vimy were all that was available at the time.

Is there really no ASI? I can't see one.

[DaveReidUK]

Is there really no ASI? I can't see one.

Yes, there is, but you can't see it in that linked photo as it's tucked just underneath the coaming on the RH side, next to the VSI:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/369x418/vimy_asi_ccf1d45e9d012d7a3e43952988dcdc5432fef546.jpg

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/bM5diyl48K/alcock

[UV]

Amazing achievement by Alcock who was only 26 at the time of the flight.
Not only that, he had only obtained his pilots licence 6 1/2 years previously, but had only really been flying for 5 years as he spent 18 months in a POW camp!
I wonder how many hours he had?

[Self loading bear]

........ Local carrier Provincial Airlines is painting a Dash 8 to resemble the Vimy........

I have not been able to find this Dash/Vimy on plane spotters/jetphotos/etc.
Has this succeeded?

SLB

[DaveReidUK]

I have not been able to find this Dash/Vimy on plane spotters/jetphotos/etc.Has this succeeded?

I'm guessing that common sense kicked in ...

[dixi188]

Went to the Science Museum in London on Saturday, (29 June)
Saw the Vickers Vimy that crossed the Atlantic 100 years ago. No special mention or any celebration at all. Just the normal small plaque with a few details.

Yesterday (30th June) I was in Hyde Park and the BoB Lancaster flew over three times. I think I was the only person to notice it was something special.
It was the sound I noticed before I saw it, I don't think anyone else looked up for more than a second.

Does nobody care about our aviation history any more?

[Bergerie1]

Thread drift - but will anyone remember 20.17 GMT, 20 July? A similar incredible anniversary..

[DH106]

Oh I think THAT one will be remembered.

[john_tullamarine]

I don't see this link anywhere in the thread - Alcock and Brown > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/620/Alcock-and-Brown.aspx)

[pr00ne]

dixi88,

"Does nobody care about our aviation history any more?"

Not entirely sure that you can speak for EVERYONE who was in Hyde Park or the surrounding area. I was in Victoria park last week when a Dakota flew over, EVERYBODY that I could see was looking up at it.

Aeroplanes over London are extremely common, and if someone is not an aviation enthusiast, why on earth SHOULD they care for our aviation history any more than you care for our musical instrument history?

[RetiredBA/BY]

Went to the Science Museum in London on Saturday, (29 June)
Saw the Vickers Vimy that crossed the Atlantic 100 years ago. No special mention or any celebration at all. Just the normal small plaque with a few details.

Yesterday (30th June) I was in Hyde Park and the BoB Lancaster flew over three times. I think I was the only person to notice it was something special.
It was the sound I noticed before I saw it, I don't think anyone else looked up for more than a second.

Does nobody care about our aviation history any more?
Certainly not our Science Museum when it comes to aviation.

My direct experience of the “management “ there convinces me :
A. They are actually hostile to aviation.
B. They are clueless about aviation history, and the vital part which some aircraft in their “care” have played in the the Uk ( eg the Vimy, E28/39)
C. They are not fit people to be entrusted with these vital aspects of British Aviation history.
D. Certain individuals in their management are either crassly incompetent or downright dishonest. ( and I have documentary evidence from within the Science Museum itself, having used the FOI act to verify that statement ).
E. Their “management” of the treasure trove of stored aviation artefacts at Wroughton is a national disgrace. Compare with Brooklands , Bristol, Elvington, Newark, and the many other superb aviation museums around the UK, indeed the world and I have been to many.