Marshalls of Cambridge looking to relocate

[NutLoose]

One site mooted is Wyton.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambridge-airport-close-relocate-marshalls-16273168?fbclid=IwAR2P71xE0avIeUT7wm3PULe-t0K-rHDCn--U3MA4fJ7meWu20kok8U9mVXg

[AF03-111]

Having Marshalls at Wyton would make more sense for the airfield than the current plan for 3,500 houses; it might be a good use of a brownfield site but those people have to work somewhere and I suspect most would have to try to commute through Huntingdon or St Ives.

[BEagle]

I thought that the housing plan had been dropped due to the inability of local roads to cope with the estimated increase in traffic levels?

[GeeRam]

I thought that the housing plan had been dropped due to the inability of local roads to cope with the estimated increase in traffic levels?

The planners have just OK'd this week for 6,500 homes to be built on Waterbeach, so I'm surprised the planners are bothered about the traffic impact on local roads.

[chevvron]

Waterbeach has an 'A' road running right past it.

[kenparry]

Waterbeach has an 'A' road running right past it.

True - but also it is seriously overloaded by current traffic. There is an improvement scheme, perhaps a decade from fruition.

[NutLoose]

The other two locations are either Cranfield or Duxford, I hope it's not Duxford as it will destroy the ambience of the place and its airshows. As for Cranfield..... Well, having worked there in the past, if God was going to give the world an Enema he would stick the tube in Cranfield, I also have doubts that you would get their workforce upping sticks and moving to Bedford.

[Pom Pax]

Waterbeach has an 'A' road running right past it.
And a first class rail service on the other side.

[just another jocky]

Having Marshalls at Wyton would make more sense for the airfield than the current plan for 3,500 houses; it might be a good use of a brownfield site but those people have to work somewhere and I suspect most would have to try to commute through Huntingdon or St Ives.

The lack of any suitable infrastructure, with the hangars in a parlous state of repair allied to a runway in need of resurfacing would suggest the costs of relocating to Wyton would be very high.

[GeeRam]

The other two locations are either Cranfield or Duxford, I hope it's not Duxford as it will destroy the ambience of the place and its airshows.
This.
Especially, as the proposal was/is to build the facility on the north side of the A505 at the western end in the field used for airshow day car park, with a traffic light operated taxi-way across the A505 onto the airfield through the other field used for airshow car parking to the west of the Land Warfare Hall.......not to mention other airfield ops upgrades required.
Yeah, that sounds like a good plan :eek:

As for Cranfield..... Well, having worked there in the past, if God was going to give the world an Enema he would stick the tube in Cranfield, I also have doubts that you would get their workforce upping sticks and moving to Bedford.
Exactly.
Wyton would obviously work from the workforce point of view, and many other issues if the proposed house building there has been canned, but the issues with the hangars and runway come into play.

[andrewn]

The lack of any suitable infrastructure, with the hangars in a parlous state of repair allied to a runway in need of resurfacing would suggest the costs of relocating to Wyton would be very high.

Yep, looked in an awful state when I stopped by a few months ago. The smart money is obviously on Cranfield, with Duxford and Wyton just added in for amusement value you'd assume.

[Sky Sports]

Anyone know why Alconbury wasn't considered?

[andrewn]

Anyone know why Alconbury wasn't considered?

Because it was bought at a knock down price a few years ago by land speculators (urban & civic) and they are now busy watching the cash roll in from a horrendous combination of thousands of new builds and light industrial.

[Ripton]

Because it was bought at a knock down price a few years ago by land speculators (urban & civic) and they are now busy watching the cash roll in from a horrendous combination of thousands of new builds and light industrial.

And there's only about half a runway left and no large hangars.

[sellbydate]

Mmmmm, realistic options for relocation of the MRO (hangar-based) activities could include, in no particular order. Assumes there is no reason a whole lot of the non-hangar operations couldn't stay in Cambridge - why move all of that? They propose a 5m sq.ft. business park - a pile of that could be still occupied by themselves - majority of staff need offices/workshops/stores rather than hangars. Where today they have 1.5m sq.ft. of hangars, by say 2025, they won't need a lot of that (UK Hercs phased out for example), so they almost certainly can downsize, then if there's space around the new site, build more as and when required.:

1) Duxford - forget it, no infrastructure, no space and unless someone's buying up a load of peripheral land, tiny runway

2) Cranfield - realistic option, have someone else take the burden of the costs of running the airport side. Just got outline planning for a massive air park, airport underwritten by University, in turn underwritten by loads of grants, because they're a University. Downside, runway still not so long (although plan for slight extension), long commute for ex-CBG employees - there will be some attrition as consequence.

3) Wyton - yes, BUT - frightening costs to reinstate, frightening costs to upgrade, frightening costs to keep operational, hangars inappropriate position and configuration/size so need to build new from scratch. Why on earth bear the costs of running an airport again? Go and get a long ground lease at another party's airport

4) Mildenhall - if Wyton, why not Mildenhall? Scary costs and vague as to when USAF actually vacate - 2023, 2025?

5) Alconbury - already gone to developer, but if starting from scratch, is there a deal to be done there? Hideous costs to reactivate and then run.

6) Stansted - buy the Diamond Hangar - or lease for 99 years, expand to east and west past the Ryanair hangars - loads of space. However, slots an issue, but demand/throughput would be very little, so not really an issue actually. 24 Hrs access, half an hour down the road - civil airliner market on doorstep to compliment what might be diminishing military base work.

7) Brize Norton - go where the main customer is, challenges no doubt politically and red-tape-wise, but why not? Will lose a pile of staff, but how many will they ultimately need for ongoing hangarage ops in the next decade?

8) Buy ex-Monarch sheds at Birmingham and expand behind/sideways - 24 hr ops, no slot issues, massive runway. Again, will lose a load of staff who won't migrate.

9) Go to Wales (St Athan, Cardiff, Hawarden or Cornwall (Newquay) - huge development agency subsidies and incentives, cheap deals, but huge loss of staff and miles from customer base

Thing is, after developing the Cambridge site, there will be gazillions floating in the coffers, so the family will be able to reinvest for the very long term on virtually any scale deemed appropriate. Question is what would you do if it was your family business, your money and your long-term investment strategy? They like asset-based rather than revenue based.

All above considered, they will feel a very strong need and obligation to look after staff relatively locally

[reds & greens]

Anyone considered Waddington?
Plenty of free space, with great road and network support too.
Based alongside RAFAT would be ideal and impose no threat or confliction to the function of 3rd party RAF Operational assets at all.
And..... then comes out of the dream.

[TCAS FAN]

If Cranfield is to be considered, in addition to the building of suitable hangars and associated infrastructure, some serious money is going to need to be spent on the runway and building a taxiway infrastructure that can take wide-bodied aircraft.

[sellbydate]

If Cranfield is to be considered, in addition to the building of suitable hangars and associated infrastructure, some serious money is going to need to be spent on the runway and building a taxiway infrastructure that can take wide-bodied aircraft.

Cranfield runway and taxiway mods/enhancements included in outline planning permissions for Air Park (Phase 1 & then Phase 2), so part of their plan regardless, albeit they are banking on someone else financing it all - Chinese, Middle East money or.....Marshall

[ASRAAMTOO]

I wonder if there is actually any genuine attempt to relocate or if the actual plan is to just to flog the Cambridge site for a huge pile of cash and retire. Will there be a press statement in a few months that says something like

"We have considered all the alternatives but none of them are viable (for the reasons outlined in the threads above!). Sadly therefore we have decided to leave the aviation business."

[Romaro]

I wonder if there is actually any genuine attempt to relocate or if the actual plan is to just to flog the Cambridge site for a huge pile of cash and retire. Will there be a press statement in a few months that says something like

"We have considered all the alternatives but none of them are viable (for the reasons outlined in the threads above!). Sadly therefore we have decided to leave the aviation business."

Not in a few months, but quite possibly in a few years. Although Herc support is the bread and butter and they support several air forces beyond the UK MOD, a lot of the work those overseas air forces would far prefer to be done (by those governments) in their own countries where Marshall set up ops there, in country and in process train their own native people how to do the work. Anything physically done in the UK usually has to be offset by business generated in that country - i.e. a £50m deal with Denmark or Botswana to modify their aircraft in the UK will have to have £50m of work created in Denmark or Botswana for something else. Those deals are a pain in the backside to facilitate. With more of that philosophy and the UK Hercs being phased out (by when?), all that C130 demand in the UK will diminish radically and the odd, big, civil airliner upgrade is not going to pay the wages at the rates they need to charge to be competitive with say Eastern European MROs - trying to charge say £55/hour in the UK when the work can be done for £40/hour in Slovakia means you either barely break-even or you don't win the work in the first place. Marshall's greatest strength is their project management capability and their design capability - all back-office. Turning spanners they're good at too, but not at a competitive price on the world stage - unless at paper-thin margins. They're also very good at designing and making bespoke, low volume sub-assemblies, specialist components etc., none of which needs a runway or hangars. Much as they would like to do much more special missions conversions for which the global market is huge, they will never compete with US players on a cost-effective basis but they do have all the expertise, but limited in-house intellectual property.

So, where they have 1.5m sq.ft. of hangarage today, chances are they'll only need a third of that by 2025 - or they just give up that part of the equation and remain a design and project management house with component and sub-assembly manufacturing capabilities - all of which can continue on any business park in Cambridge, or anywhere else in the country.

[Miles Magister]

They do not need an airfield as they are way too expensive to operate just to support a maintenance operation, all they need to do is lease a hangar somewhere.

They could always buy/lease the big hangar at St Athan and run a support operation out of there!!!!

[pr00ne]

Miles Magister,

So I guess that you have never been to Cambridge/Teversham? The facility is huge with many MANY hangars as well as workshops, assembly facilities, design office etc etc . etc. Seeing as they are going to be converting Boeing737NG airframes into E-7 aircraft for the RAF that alone will need a LOT of space. Add that to their C-130 work, airliner work, business jet work, manufacturing operations and MRO activity and they need a big area, and that's before you take into account the automotive side.

As for your suggestion about the "big hangar at St.Athan," I guess you missed the fact that it is now a large Aston Martin factory?

I really cannot see Marshall relocating to Cranfield or Duxford, there is no room at one and no infrastructure whatsoever at the other. Even Wyton will need extensive new build and renovation. They can only use the 84 year old C-hangars and airfield, everything else will have to be built from scratch.

[NutLoose]

But if they went to Cranfield or Duxford they were always going to need to build the facility, so Wyton would be no different and having seen how Dyson has transformed some of the run down sheds at Hullavington refurbishing those they need at Wyton should not be insurmountable. Plus building new will be more energy efficient, better suited to purpose and will possible attract development grants.

[pr00ne]

Nutloose,

What Dyson has done at Hullavington is tiny compared to the Marshall operation at Teversham. I take your point about the need to build anew, but the far side of Duxford is just rolling farm land and the airfield is tiny, and Cranfield surely has no room? The timeframe may be out now but Mildenhall always looked good for a minimum of actual new build.

[Momoe]

Mildenhall is a good shout, already running down for a scheduled 2023 relocation to Fairford. 110V electrical infrastructure but other than it ticks a lot of boxes.

[Romaro]

Mildenhall is a good shout, already running down for a scheduled 2023 relocation to Fairford. 110V electrical infrastructure but other than it ticks a lot of boxes.


Costs of running Mildenhall and upgrade/maintenance will make running Cambridge airport seem like a tea party. Not a chance, never in a million Sundays could be justified for a £250 - £300m turnover aerospace business of which the bit that needs actual hangars and a runway are a fraction of that. Yes, you might make some money renting out spare buildings you don't need to third parties and building houses in spare corners, but that is far away from a city like Cambridge where people actually want to be, so the scope for that is handicapped. Wyton less so, but still mind-blowing costs to run a place like that.

[Vendee]

Yes, you might make some money renting out spare buildings you don't need to third parties and building houses in spare corners, but that is far away from a city like Cambridge where people actually want to be, so the scope for that is handicapped. Wyton less so, but still mind-blowing costs to run a place like that.

Mildenhall is only 20 miles from Cambridge. I live a further 10 miles up the road from Mildenhall and they are currently building 5000 homes near me that are going to be bought in the main by Cambridge workers but I won't disagree that Mildenhall is probably too big for the needs of Marshalls.

[Wander00]

Marshalls was BIG when I worked there on Concorde 69/70. ISTR it is one of the biggest private companies in the UK.

[Arclite01]

Remember that the money for relocation can be written off against Tax - so cost not such an issue.

And they don't need to take all of Mildenhall - just the runway and taxiways and pans. The remainder could be developed or just sold off to defray costs......

It's still an option.............

Arc

[ICM]

Circa 1992/93, in the annual LTC round, I recall HQ STC adopting for planning purposes an 'Alternative Assumption' that would have seen Bentwaters/Woodbridge acquired - for Harrier basing, I think - as the USAF left. In the following year, that Assumption was dropped as it had emerged that the costs of changing from the US 110V power infrastructure would be excessive. I imagine changes at Mildenhall would be no less expensive.

[weemonkey]

Circa 1992/93, in the annual LTC round, I recall HQ STC adopting for planning purposes an 'Alternative Assumption' that would have seen Bentwaters/Woodbridge acquired - for Harrier basing, I think - as the USAF left. In the following year, that Assumption was dropped as it had emerged that the costs of changing from the US 110V power infrastructure would be excessive. I imagine changes at Mildenhall would be no less expensive.

Odd that the yanks have managed with 110v just fine then.......

[Arclite01]

Like I said, you can write those infrastructure and relocation costs off against Tax.

Really not a show stopper.................. if they really wanted to move there.

Arc

[Tashengurt]

Is Dunsfold still operational other than for car shows?

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Marshalls went through all this in 2009.

Aaron.

[ex82watcher]

Is Dunsfold still operational other than for car shows?

Think this is the last year for the 'Wings and wheels' airshow,There are plans in hand for the construction of thousands of houses in a new 'village'.

[chopper2004]

I cannot see the move being priority for a long time plus sadly it has its uses now. Fingers crossed the ummm facilities at Addenbrookes, Hitchingbrooke, Peterborough etc do not even get to the stage of other places.

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/temporary-mortuary-built-cambridgeshire-pandemic-18055984

Touch woods, Cambs has less cases confirmed then the other counties and cities. Sadly only read about couple of dozen deaths as a result in the for sure the numbers under 50 the last I read. Anyhow two old gents I knew passed away at local Addenbrookes Hospital within 24 hours of each other. One was Friend and lead singer in Local band for the last 4 decades. His day job at time was specialist lab wall paints and did work for MoD and DoD in 70s/ 80s. He even manage to do some work at Kirtland AFB in mid 70s. The other guy was an artist and everyone’s friend in couple of local pubs. He had gone downhill health wise with stroke last year and had some major op.

Cheers and stay safe

[ROC man]

Option on 150yr lease announced today at.......Cranfield University
https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/press/news-2020/cranfield-and-marshall-of-cambridge-sign-option-agreement-for-air-park-development-site

[NutLoose]

Christ..
I feel for the staff at Marshalls. Having worked at Cranfield for several years in my past life, the best thing I can say about the place is:

If God was going to give the World an enema, he'd stick the tube in Cranfield....

[GeeRam]

Christ..
I feel for the staff at Marshalls. Having worked at Cranfield for several years in my past life, the best thing I can say about the place is:

If God was going to give the World an enema, he'd stick the tube in Cranfield....

Could be horrible commute for a lot of them to depending where they live in relation to Cambridge, especially for any of them that live to the east of Cambridge.

[salad-dodger]

Could be horrible commute for a lot of them to depending where they live in relation to Cambridge, especially for any of them that live to the east of Cambridge.
it maybe now, but by the time of any Marshall move, a new A428 from Caxton Gibbett to Black Cat and a new A421 already means the journey will be a doddle.

[esscee]

The "new" A421 is busy enough now, and if you think the Dept for Trpt will have a dual carriageway A428 in near future then good luck with that idea. Roads around Wharley End and Cranfield to "A" roads will require much work too, present "country lanes" are terrible and will be unable to cope with the extra traffic.

[GeeRam]

Of course being another 10 years away, there could be a significant % of the current 'local' Cambridge domiciled workforce that will have or are due to retire by that date, so where the post 2030 workforce live may not be so much of an issue.
I'm sure they've thought of all this anyway.

I'm guessing the area they have leased is the area adjacent to the north end of the runway, north of Merchant Lane?

[salad-dodger]

The "new" A421 is busy enough now, and if you think the Dept for Trpt will have a dual carriageway A428 in near future then good luck with that idea. Roads around Wharley End and Cranfield to "A" roads will require much work too, present "country lanes" are terrible and will be unable to cope with the extra traffic.
new A421 busy? Have you been on a busy dual carriageway? Try the A14 for busy.

new A428, I would be fairly confident that it will be in place long before 2030. I guess you haven’t seen what is already happening on that project.

[RetHar]

Probably cost of converting the electricity supply to 230 volts. The whole base is wired for 115V - this put the MoD off a similar plan some years ago.

[LTNman]

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/cambridge-aerospace-company-marshall-gets-26735933

[Asturias56]

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-roads/a428-black-cat-to-caxton-gibbet/

has details tho currently delayed due to another legal challenge

[chopper2004]

From their FB page

https://marshallaerospace.com/insights-news/marshall-aerospace-gets-green-light-for-cranfield-relocation?fbclid=IwAR3PyWTsD5awGEDLMyFsXt2eXsa-ieMvkknYuYeOTUFRKs89rumJOzBPL3w


https://scontent-lcy1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/342471754_179557124965061_8030308500303272604_n.jpg?_nc_cat= 105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=R6B6kxYhv8gAX8Yn-Xr&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-2.xx&oh=00_AfAimQ8yVOLpVOJNW0uAhuxHk2SzAidOXEOJx0Ebjv3tzg&oe=6446B004

cheers

[Asturias56]

lot of Hercs in that mockup

[SLXOwft]

Luckily for Marshalls they have other customers who will continue flying Alberts.

[NutLoose]

The plans

https://marshallaerospace.com/media/pages/relocation/0fcf74679a-1648033616/marshall-aerospace-relocation-exhibition-material-prt-2.pdf