age 60 rule

[3forty]

I´m new to the forum,so this topic may not be new for most of you.Anyway,I would **** to know your feelings on this subject.
I understand a number of pilots in the US are petitioning the congress to reverse the age 60 rule imposed by the FAA.In Europe,the JAA already has provisions to extend age limit to 65,although most member states still apply the old rule.
Question is : is it wise to keep flying till 65,even if you are healthy and fit ?

[Willit Run]

I don't think the age sixty rule will be overturned anytime soon, thanks to the fine members of ALPA. If you've been lucky enough to be with an ALPA carrier for a number of years and have a retirement to fall back on, the age sixty rule is moot. Many folks in this industry have not been as fortuneate to be with a carrier long enough to have a retirement, or been with a carrier that offers a retirement. I've been lucky enough to be with a carrier(s) that allowed me to save my own money tax free for my own retirement. Whoopee!
I'm not sure why ALPA is so against overturning the rule, but they are. I truely would like to hear some logical answers from the ALPA folks. I really don't think it has anything to do with health issues anymore.
I hope it does get overturned, but am trying to prepare myself financially incase it doesn't! The big bummer is, you can't collect social security and medical benefits till 65 and 67 when I get that age.

[canberra]

its not quite the same as airline flying but the raf has had pilots over 60 flying fast jets.

[BlueEagle]

3forty - The question of the 'Over 60' rule has been covered comprehensively on PPRuNe, many times.

If you are looking for information suggest you do a trawl through the archives. Cheers.

[3forty]

thanks,Blue Eagle,l allways thought so.I´ll have a look at the archives but l still think the subject is worth rethinking due to this petition to the US congress.If the FAA changes the rule,everyone else will follow.
Could tou share any thoughts on the matter ?

[BlueEagle]

Many have already changed their rules, we are just waiting for the FAA to follow!;)

[m&v]

Willit r',what ever happened to the Senate ruler(Mccain??)that raised the limit to 63,a couple of years ago??We know the FAA'stipulated that they had no new data to extend the Limit.Never the less Congress passed it!!
Where is it now-keeping in mind that the reduces' Sched's ' don't require the same manpower(at the moment!!):p

[stargazer02]

3forty

I say if you are fit and healthy then keep flying as long as you can
Recently DAL pilots voted no regarding allowing pilots to continue till 65....you see most of those guys junior to the aged 60 Captains want to slide over into the left seat and earn some big bucks but what they don't realise is that effectively they are stopping themselves for 5 more years of earnings....because when they reach 60 they too will be retired.....
So from a pure financial response....keep going because those extra 5yrs especially in DAL can amount to a nice round sum of money......
Hey if you feel that strong about the 60yrs mark then retire...if not keep on trucking
:D :cool: :p ;)

[Intruder]

It's not "ALPA members" who are against changing the rule, but "ALPA memebrs who have big paychecks and big pension funds." The rest of us ALPA members are just waiting for the time when we are in the majority, and can override DAL, UA, NWA, and a few others...

[Few Cloudy]

If you are prepared to travel outside the States you can fly to 65 in Europe or Japan... however NOT overhead France as a pax carrying Captain (Freight Capt or Pax Copilot OK)).

[BlueEagle]

No, you can't fly over France or India, and as so many flights do just that it very much limits just where an "Over 60" can go. Not commercially practical for Crew Scheduling to roster crews certain routes only so companies reluctantly have to let the 60 and over group go. Much to the delight of the young, impatient and intolerant!

[wallabie]

". Much to the delight of the young, impatient and intolerant!"

Well mate, I just wonder who is the intolerant one. Just using the very word makes you one.

Fit ???? My hands and feet are not enough to count the number of overweight and obviously unfit pilots I have seen in my carreer. It just takes to check where the crowd is, gym or pub. Lots of room at the gym !
Now, KLM pilots went on strike to garantee their walking at 55, BA walk at 55 even if a few of them carry on in Asia and that is sensible. It is just because of the poor retirement system that goes on in the US. It's a common thing to see people in their 70's working in the US and I don't think the majority of them works for the fun of the job !! They do because they have to.
65 is overstreching it for many reasons and yes that to, to leave room for younger guys and let them have a slice of the pie to.
Fit at 65 ? Give me a break. Night flying, jet lag, poor nutrition in airline food and 18 days on stick !! This is not my definition of a healthy life style that leads you to keep an adolescent body. Try to find some other excuse.
Right I forgot, John Glenn went into space at 77. I haven't seen a lot of John Glenn shaped fellows in airport terminals but more guys who couldn't button their uniform jackets.

[Engineer]

wallabie

Well said may be a bit cutting but on the whole truthful. These guys should move onto pastures new and make way for the up and coming replacements.

[BlueEagle]

The sole reasons that airlines like KLM and BA have a retirement age of 55 are internal and to do as much with the pension scheme as anything else. Such airlines usually take their pilots in young and offer them a full career, by the time they reach the age of 55 they cannot improve their pensions anymore as they have reached limits set by government legislation. The age of 55 has absolutely nothing to to with health or competency issues.

Now would either of you care to show any evidence at all where it has been proved that pilots who fly beyond the age of sixty are more accident prone than younger pilots or more likely to suffer ill health in flight? In fact several studies have been done that prove quite the opposite.

The vast majority of pilots have not had the good fortune to be employed by one of the major carriers and been able to enjoy a full career with continuity and a fat pension scheme. Unfortunately a large number of people are not aware of this and assume everyone has had the same deal.

[wallabie]

? In fact several studies have been done that prove quite the opposite.



Blue

You can't be serious ?? I am ready to flood you with my deepest apology if you produce this so called study.
All I know are the statistics of my own airline and starting 55 it's downhill. As to the pension fund's statistics not very uplifting as far as life expectency is concerned.
So I'll just repeat, regardless of how thorough you are with living sensibly, this job wears you down and 65 is ludicrous.
After all we are talking about air transport safety or am I mistaken ??

[BlueEagle]

Well I certainly agree that this job wears you down but I don't think 60 is a realistic retirement age.

Not sure I get your point about retiring at 55 and life expectancy?
Some carriers have a retirement age of 55 because by that time there can be no further improvement in the pension fund so the individual may as well retire and enjoy it. Many, of course, go off and get contracts with other operators.

The study I am most familiar with was done by a well respected Specialist in Aviation Medicine and AME who has his rooms in Sloane Square, London. He may not appreciate it if I print his name here though! There are several other studies that have been done on both sides of the Atlantic by those wanting to get the age back to 65, (where it started in UK), not aware of any studies having been done by the anti-over 60 pilots lobby though.

On this thorny subject I shall just beg to differ:)

[old pick it her]

3forty

Some web sites:

www.ppf.org (the original)

www.paad60.com (I believe started by some Southwest Pilots)

www.apaas.org (ALPA Pilots opposed)

There are numerous links on all these and also look for an e mail notification sign up........

pick it

[3forty]

old pick it her
Thanks fore the information,quite usefull.
As l understand,the trend in Europe is to increase retirement age in most professions to provide for the social security systems,which are mostly bankrupt.Of course,people live longer,due to the progress of medicine and quality of life,so there is no way one can work 35 years and collect his pension for another 25.No system in the world will be sustainable if things remain as they are today.
Pilots,certainly,are no exception,so l believe it is just a question of time before retirement age goes back to 65,as it was when l started my career.So,l´m afraid early retirements (52 or 55) will soon be a thing of the past.Unfortunatly.

[wallabie]

Blue

I am not saying I'm in favour of retiring at 55 as a general rule, I would just love to do it myself when the time comes. I am just very anti streching it to 65 for all the already mentioned reasons.
As to Europe reverting to 60 +, let me tell you that as tempting as it may sound to politicians and others who have no life outside of their job, this is not about to happen or maybe in a wet dream.
With the medical standards we have today ( let's face it, thismedical renewal is a farce ) there is no way one can vouch for pilot's health and I'm talking non US standards.
Passing a medical doesn't mean a thing in the present circumstances.

[GlueBall]

Every six months one gets put into the pinball machine and checked; every six months there's the flight physical including EKG; annual line check and annual recurrent groundschool. Some guys retire early, some stay till FAA mandatory retirement age 60. Some move back to the F/E seat and work another 10 years, or until they fall out of their chair. We have one F/E (ex captain) at age 72 who is still kicking the tires. One thing is for sure, he doesn't need the money. Maybe it's because he likes the job so much, or maybe it's because he needs to get away from the wife now and then.

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.