Jetstar to Seoul

[PPRuNeUser0198]

From December 2019 ex Gold Coast three times per week as JQ49.

[PoppaJo]

and Scoot has just killed them off MEL-SIN.

The Buchanan fantasy is now over.

[VH DSJ]

and Scoot has just killed them off MEL-SIN.

The Buchanan fantasy is now over.

No surprises there, when ticket prices are $180 MEL-SIN on Scoot. I heard their SO's on the 787 earn less than the people who work on the catering trucks.

[dragon man]

No surprises there, when ticket prices are $180 MEL-SIN on Scoot. I heard their SO's on the 787 earn less than the people who work on the catering trucks.

But you forget the catering people don’t have the glamour of been international aviators.😂😂😂😂

[The Green Goblin]

I wouldn’t be surprised if SIN-MEL was a two crew return.

They work hard at scoot.

[Global Aviator]

Love it a thread on Jetstar going to Seoul becomes a Scootitude.

Yep JQ MEL-SIN only twice a week, Scoot daily and yes 2 crew as is JQ, so no need for crew bashing.

JQ int dead in the water? Starting a new route...

Does QF fly to Korea?

[Roj approved]

Yes, JQ only do MEL- SIN 2 times a week, but prior to around Oct 2017 it was 6 times a week.

It was always full, in both classes. As the route structure to LHR was changed, QF stepped in with a daily 380 MEL-SIN, and JQ went to 2 times a week.

The same thing happened with MEL-NRT. JQ fly the new/marginal routes, if the business case stacks up (i.e. good premium load projection), QF take it over.

A nice way to limit the losses on new routes, get slots and establish a presence in the new destination with code share arrangements in the destination country.

SQ do the same with SCOOT.

[Beer Baron]

Pretty sure Qantas were flying MEL-NRT and MEL-SIN long before Jetstar came around to ‘establish a presence in the new destination’.
More like a poor network decision to replace QF with JQ on those routes has finally been acknowledged and rectified.
That is not a dig at JQ, they have an important place in the market but those routes ain’t it.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Has it been announced anywhere that the Singapore flights will be cancelled or is that just the speculation at this stage? I agree that this seems the most likely scenario given the decline in frequency on the route and Qantas’ heavy presence.

[Rated De]

and Scoot has just killed them off MEL-SIN.

The Buchanan fantasy is now over.



He gave up on the fantasy and was shown the door.

It is incredibly difficult to stretch a stage length without destroying whatever cost advantage Low Far Airlines have.
Whilst demand can be induced at low price points the model cost gets distorted outside given stage lengths for passenger amenity, like blankets, food and galleys. That passenger amenity costs money means that density is sacrificed. High density and high load factors are needed to squeeze a dollar.
Further crews need overnights, they need hotels, thus utilisation declines eroding whatever margin was apparent.
Combine it all with very demand elastic customers and it is at best a very finely balanced proposition.
Fort Fumble had in their IR wet-dream the fantasy that passengers would simply transfer from QF to JQ. Unfortunately, they failed to model and anticipate competitor response.
When your competitor can offer product on a full service airline for a price you change for low fare, who wins?
When other competitors can use their robust mainline carrier to supplement a loss leading low fare airline, who wins?

Jetstar may well have a role, stimulating leisure travel and an industrial wedge, but long haul operations isn't it.

[PoppaJo]

By 2022 Scoot will be five times that of Jetstar Asia.

Anyone remember Auckland-Singapore-Beijing A330?

[Rated De]

By 2022 Scoot will be five times that of Jetstar Asia.

Anyone remember Auckland-Singapore-Beijing A330?


Will that be the time that they segment out JQ International to show the incredible profit (Profit not derived from leasing aircraft) ?

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I even remember JQ flying SYD/KUL I think it was, way back...

As Rated D pointed out - JQ's market demand is highly elastic - so they struggle to push for greater unit revenue. It is a balancing act on seat factor and yield.

I am not so sure on the 'passenger amenity' peice since all these items are ancillary and mitage some of the opportunity costs of more seats (with no amenity).

The other biggest factor for JQI, which will always be problematic is FX and fuel, since they fly longer sectors, the have higher exposure to fuel costs, and in particular, costs outside of their control, thus typically there is a correlation between EBIT margin and jet fuel price, which you can plot with QFI to see (-91.2% correlation). And then of course - irrational capacity in the market for which JQI ad QFI are severly punished by lower cASK operators.

[Tankengine]

Does QF fly to Korea?



Not anymore, but they did about 25 years ago before they pulled out of just about everywhere! :(

[sta5fhl]

How many people can JQ push through a 787 type rating at a time? 6 or 8?

[krismiler]

I saw a J* crew overnighting in Bali in a Holiday Inn Express and wouldn't be surprised if the cabin crew were sharing rooms. QF mainline would turn their noses up at anything below Crowne Plaza level and individual rooms for everyone. In some markets ticket price is the only thing.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

6 I believe, they’re churning out SOs at the moment to make more routes 3 crew. Why do you ask?

[wheels_down]

I saw a J* crew overnighting in Bali in a Holiday Inn Express and wouldn't be surprised if the cabin crew were sharing rooms. QF mainline would turn their noses up at anything below Crowne Plaza level and individual rooms for everyone. In some markets ticket price is the only thing.
I thought they outsourced all 787 cabin crew to Asian bases?

[benttrees]

I saw a J* crew overnighting in Bali in a Holiday Inn Express and wouldn't be surprised if the cabin crew were sharing rooms. QF mainline would turn their noses up at anything below Crowne Plaza level and individual rooms for everyone. In some markets ticket price is the only thing.

Excuse me if I’ve missed the sarcasm, but, otherwise, your taking the piss, right ?

[krismiler]

Excuse me if I’ve missed the sarcasm, but, otherwise, your taking the piss, right ?

I'm simply stating what I saw when I arrived, J* crew checking out as I was checking in. I was on holiday so the cost was out of my own pocket hence HI Express rather than 5*. Most of the cabin crew were Asian, I think the boss was Australian. Cabin crew sharing rooms is very common in this part of the world especially with low cost airlines. Bogans demand cheap tickets and costs need to be cut where ever they can. For Australians, Bali is a lower end leisure destination which is relatively close and therefore won't support a premium airline. For Europeans and Americans it's a luxury destination and can easily attract premium passengers willing to pay a bit more for a comfortable 20 hour journey.

Similarly, for Australians Spain is exotic whereas for Brits it's low end package deals.

[patty50]

I was on holiday so the cost was out of my own pocket hence HI Express rather than 5*.

Bogans demand cheap tickets and costs need to be cut where ever they can. For Australians, Bali is a lower end leisure destination which is relatively close and therefore won't support a premium airline.

How utterly void of self-awareness can one poster be?

When they spend $199 on a flight to Bali they’re a low end, cheap ticket demanding bogan. When you spend a princely $39 a night on a hotel you’re a...premium airline supporter? Pot calling the kettle miserly.


You also better let the bean counters at Qantas and Virgin know that Bali can’t support “premium” airlines. An upgauged A330 out of Sydney and 737 out of Melbourne. Virgin even do multiple a day some days.

[wheels_down]

Virgin has the most frequency out of all carriers BNE and SYD-DPS.

[krismiler]

An upgauged A330 out of Sydney and 737 out of Melbourne. Virgin even do multiple a day some days.

I didn't see any of their crews in the Holiday Inn Express, would they be in 4/5* hotels instead ? Why not put the J* crew up in the same hotel as QF then ?

[ANCDU]

I didn't see any of their crews in the Holiday Inn Express, would they be in 4/5* hotels instead ? Why not put the J* crew up in the same hotel as QF then ?

From what I understand Jetstar flight crew stay in the same hotel as Virgin Crew, sometimes Jetstar cabin crew are out in the Holiday Inn Express next door but it’s not all the time. Second hand info, someone from Jetstar could clarify.

[Rated De]

I'm simply stating what I saw when I arrived, J* crew checking out as I was checking in. I was on holiday so the cost was out of my own pocket hence HI Express rather than 5*. Most of the cabin crew were Asian, I think the boss was Australian. Cabin crew sharing rooms is very common in this part of the world especially with low cost airlines. Bogans demand cheap tickets and costs need to be cut where ever they can. For Australians, Bali is a lower end leisure destination which is relatively close and therefore won't support a premium airline. For Europeans and Americans it's a luxury destination and can easily attract premium passengers willing to pay a bit more for a comfortable 20 hour journey.

Similarly, for Australians Spain is exotic whereas for Brits it's low end package deals.

Just out of curiosity, which member states (countries of operation) are 'double bunking' crew? (our bolding)

[PoppaJo]

Virgin, QF, Tiger, state single occupancy hotel accommodation in their respective Cabin Crew EBA’s. Jetstar does not.

Jetstar Asian based 787 crews work for subsidiary companies that are ‘based’ in Thailand/Indonesia, on local terms and conditions I might add. I’ll leave what that entails to your imagination.

[duffman_84]

JQ cabin crew do not share hotel rooms whether they are Aus based or SIN/BKK/HKT based. On a side note Jetstar Pacific cabin crew do share hotel rooms when the gender numbers are even.

JQ cabin crew in Bali either stay at the Holiday Inn or Holiday Inn Express subject to occupancy levels. Anecdotally the cabin crew prefer the express as it is newer and cleaner. JQ pilots stay at the Inn. Along with Virgin crew and the occasional Qantas crew.

As for Bali not supporting premium airlines, I beg to differ given a Qantas A330 from SYD, a 737 from MEL, multiple Virgin 737s and the business (premium economy) cabins on four daily JQ 787s being mostly full on a daily basis.

Cheers

[Popgun]

Jetstar cabin crew, no matter where they are based, do NOT share rooms. They ALL get their own room.

Having stayed in both....The Holiday Inn as well as the Holiday Inn Express in Kuta are both perfectly adequate hotels for any business traveller on a short Balinese layover.

I am the last person to defend sub-par hotel standards....however, to suggest otherwise in this case is simply a silver-spoon, princess-like attitude that does not reflect the fiscal necessity of sourcing satisfactory accommodation when running a cost-effective business.

But...back to Seoul...good to see new markets are being tested.

I hear there is another new JQ destination to be announced before the end of the year.

PG

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

New destinations being announced towards the end of the year would make sense with the 3 788 airframes being freed up from the Bali runs with the arrival of the A321LRs from mid 2020.

Gotta love the qantas boys spreading rumours of the JQ 787s being sent to qantas. Meanwhile, in the real world, JQ are incrementally growing their international operation and launching new routes. Amazing how rumours gather momentum, but after all that is the name of the website!

[morno]

Jetstar cabin crew, no matter where they are based, do NOT share rooms. They ALL get their own room.

PG

As above, Jetstar Pacific cabin crew don’t get their own rooms unless there’s an uneven spread in the genders

[Popgun]

The thread is about JQ to Seoul.

Thats the VH registered B787 Australian operation. (Not Jetstar Asia, Pacific or Japan)

None of those flight attendants, whether they are Aussie-based, or BKK or HKT or SIN based share rooms.

PG

As an aside, there probably won't be many flight attendants overnighting in DPS at all very soon when the Indonesian nationals start crewing the DPS base!

[wheels_down]

I assume the plan in the medium term is all narrow/wide body flights out of DPS to be operated by crew under some Indonesian third party subsidiary.

Can they operate onward domestic travel also? I am aware of this occurring last year and some pilots raised the issue with the unions.

[Sparrows.]

None of those flight attendants, whether they are Aussie-based, or BKK or HKT or SIN based share rooms.


Aussie based crew on their initial ground school have to share rooms.

[dragon man]

Aussie based crew on their initial ground school have to share rooms.

With no meal allowances either.

[GA Driver]

With no meal allowances either.

Its not just initial groundschool either, altara crew (all newbies) don’t get overnight allowance ever.

[Global Aviator]

Yes there was a big hoo haa about it in the media a while ago but quiet it went.

No doubt more Korean cc will be employed, home base? Then tag flights through AUS?

Great for JQ destinations.

[wheels_down]

So you fly Melbourne to Hawaii what crew do you get? Siberian? Eskimo’s?

[Global Aviator]

So you fly Melbourne to Hawaii what crew do you get? Siberian? Eskimo’s?

Actually if you stepped of your island you would see that many airlines around the globe do exactly this...

I shall start with a few of the small ones shall I?

Finnair
Delta

Hang on think you get the point.

JQ Int certainly does it with SIN, THAI, JAP, crew etc.

So no it would not surprise me to see more Korean cabin crew.

[wheels_down]

Delta and Finnair are using those foreign crews for language reasons. I fly Miami to Washington do I get a Korean crew? You certainly do not.

Melbourne to Hawaii for what reasons other than slave labour do you get a Thai based crew?

Jetstar and Norwegian are the only two I’ve seen exploiting their own employees on such a large scale.

[morno]

I’ll speak as a member of the general public.

If I get a cheap airfare, I really don’t care where they come from

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Jetstar use foreign crew where possible. This is nothing new and is simply intended to reduce labour cost. There is nothing wrong with that. The punter wants a cheap (and cheaper) fare. The market dictates this. Jetstar need to turn a dollar with an operation that suffers from a large proportion of uncontrollables (fuel, FX etc.), and is highly exposed to fuel expense due to longer sectors. If everyone was prepared to pay more - things would be different - but they won't.

And there are no hub and scale advantages for end-of-the-line carriers. Everything has to be replciated, in each base. A terrible lost opportunity that our Asian friends enjoy... amongst others

[Transition Layer]

Let’s not forget that Qantas has NZ and UK based Cabin Crew on inferior conditions. They operate all over the globe, not necessarily between their home bases and Australia.

I doubt the Kiwis were employed for their language (accent) skills either :}

[Rated De]

And there are no hub and scale advantages for end-of-the-line carriers. Everything has to be replciated, in each base. A terrible lost opportunity that our Asian friends enjoy... amongst others

Firstly, end of the line carriers depend entirely on where it is presumed the start of line is drawn. Emirates could be seen as an end of the line carrier. From space the north pole might actually be underneath; it's all relative.

Hub and spoke operations are generally the purview of the established or legacy carriers. A key tenet for maintaining any sort of unit cost advantage in Low Fare Airlines is point to point flying. Self evidently, the further away from home (longer stage) more resources, like staff and premises, rest facilities and the like are needed. Very important therefore is stage length. Stretch the stage length too far, unit costs rise faster than any any revenue gain at the margin. Fuel included CASK consumes more of any operating margin and the unit costs very quickly morph to resemble any established airline. Add in FX volatility and fuel becomes a much bigger problem.

Perhaps, inadvertently this has revealed the problem with Jetstar International: Yield premium is non existent as demand is elastic and the business has rising unit costs.
Jetstar do have scale, they are, fleet wise, bigger than their parent. Despite this domestic scale they lack the ability to generate anything like the revenue's their parent does. Jetstar has a role, but their foray into long haul operations is not readily replicated world wide. Take away the accounting cloak and it is a very marginal business, at best. Demand elasticity bites hard.

Thus, the Boston Bruce Buchanan play relied on foreign crews, from impoverished countries (after all he was trying to help) paid them a pittance and flew them on as many tag flights, all over Australia, as he could get away with.

[PoppaJo]

Jetstar use foreign crew where possible. This is nothing new and is simply intended to reduce labour cost. There is nothing wrong with that.
I beg to differ. My colleagues also disagree. The main issue at hand isn’t that we are using foreign crews, it’s how and when. There isn’t a lot of confidence, that in elevated situations, that these guys are going to execute 100%. Pilots shouldn’t have the added worry on an evacuation if the Cabin Crew are performing or are half asleep. You pay them 10-15k a year for heavens sake, expectations are not overly high.

There was a lot of noise last year with the Adelaide stuff that went on. Got a lot of people offside very quickly, would be a bit of a $hitfight if they did that again.

[morno]

I beg to differ. My colleagues also disagree. The main issue at hand isn’t that we are using foreign crews, it’s how and when. There isn’t a lot of confidence, that in elevated situations, that these guys are going to execute 100%. Pilots shouldn’t have the added worry on an evacuation if the Cabin Crew are performing or are half asleep. You pay them 10-15k a year for heavens sake, expectations are not overly high.

There was a lot of noise last year with the Adelaide stuff that went on. Got a lot of people offside very quickly, would be a bit of a $hitfight if they did that again.


So you’re saying that only Australian crews are capable of doing an evacuation?

I fly with Asian crews who would do the job ten times better than some Australian crews I’ve worked with.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

For clarity Rated D - when I reference the 'economies of scale' claim - I refer primarily to asset/labour utilisation in a single hub i.e. equipment like trucks, facilities etc. In a hub environment you can utlise your equipment across more flights (scale) thus spreading out your fixed costs versus say a port where you have the cost of that truck and it services say a few services. It is underutilised. There is a producitivty line here that delivers better ecomonics when you are maximising utlising your assets, infrastructure, people etc.

Our friends in Air Asia or Scoot (for example), operate from a primary city/airport with this scale advantage, whilst JQ, operates from many bases across the country - not a single primary city.

I don't disagree with your other comments.

PoppaJo - let's not get xenophobic here. Australians are certainly not immune to poor performance and errors...

[Global Aviator]

I always struggle to see how pointing to cabin crew and saying I’m worried they are not up to the task.

Question - did they pass the course? SEP? Recurrent?

Answer - yep.

Problem therefore lies with management allowing the boxes to be ticked.

Thats before we even start talking about cultures (or lack of by some pax).