return of pay2fly programs?

[aronsha]

hi folks.
many friends reported that bs p2f is on the rise again. please post here the names of current p2f providers. would be good to stop the next wave. and what about the EU plans to ban it?
regards, aron

[gearlever]

The "EU"?
Are you kidding?

[aronsha]

The "EU"?
Are you kidding?
I'm dead serious

[aronsha]

a collection of some p2f co's... enjoy

https://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/goodies/p2f/

[gearlever]

Look what the "EU" has done to the FR dilemma.

NOTHING!!!

Some countries, e.g. NL, became active, but not the "EU".

EU is a toothless tiger IMHO.

[flash8]

a collection of some p2f co's... enjoy

https://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/goodies/p2f/

Aronsha, that is a deeply troubling long list!

When I started out in '98 there was only the ubiquitous EagleJet... now... it has grown out of control, and to think we should have learnt from Kos.

[Aso]

Seriously? You do know that the EU is an enabler of atrocious airline practices? FTL's that blatantly disregards science and turning a blind eye to Pay2fly? Another good reason to get on with Brexit.

Ehh all the EU rules are made with help of: the local CAA's, representatives of Unions and employers... So in other words: the people that are representing you either politically or as an employee.. So ALL the FTL's are written in full transparency... But I guess that they don't tell you that in the Daily Star? :hmm:

[GanjiGirl]

just had a look on that list and fraudster MSD aviation is a part of it. my cousin lost his money with that company. is MSD still active?

[GanjiGirl]

My goodness. some of the original contracts are accessible. just have a look at MSD etc. that's how they earned money. curse you

[Denti]

Ehh all the EU rules are made with help of: the local CAA's, representatives of Unions and employers... So in other words: the people that are representing you either politically or as an employee.. So ALL the FTL's are written in full transparency... But I guess that they don't tell you that in the Daily Star? :hmm:

Not to mention, the EU sets a limit at the low end. Countries can require higher limits. That said, working conditions apart from some very basic concepts (4 weeks of paid vacation per year, 8 days off per month for example) are not regulated by the EU, they are local laws decided by the relevant governments in each state. Especially laws governing the right to strike, or to build unions and what those unions can do differ wildly across the EU and are not unified in any form. P2F is such a practice that requires currently local laws to outlaw its use, although the social dialogue of the EU (on the insistence of ECA) is actually on that case, but the EU quite often works very slowly. Of course it doesn't help that unions representing pilots do not take part in the required international lobbying within brussels, like for example ver.di representing the orange pilots in germany.

[smthngdffrnt]

Another variable to add is the pilot who accepts these conditions...

[flash8]

I had to laugh at the bare-faced cheek of Baltic Aviation Academy...

https://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/goodies/p2f/baltic_aviation_academy_cooperation-offer-for-base-and-line-training.pdf

WE ARE OFFERING: • Great chance to supplement Your Company’s budget with additional income, using our human resources: selected, recommended, checked students

Yes, the English is wonky but at least they are honest and straight to the point!

[737crew]

Confair is ok for FOs. For Cpts is a low salary. But 747

[737crew]

just had a look on that list and fraudster MSD aviation is a part of it. my cousin lost his money with that company. is MSD still active?

MSD? You mean Masadavia and CEO Kasana?

[flyingmed]

https://www.eurocockpit.be/news/eu-commission-finds-critical-flaws-airline-employment-practices

[robbiecando]

What we need is a effective lobby against P2F. National authorities are too slow and outnumbered. Inefficient work and intentional hindering of measures to counteract P2F made way for locust airlines. Mostly low costers advantegous and making money on the back of their crews. P2F providers should be officially revealed in public. Economically not viable airlines would be cut from their vital lifeline. Healthy ones would survive with pilot salaries increasing.

[robbiecando]

MSD? You mean Masadavia and CEO Kasana?

I know Kasana and his fraudster friends. They harmed a lot of people. Didn't knew that he's still working in this business. Just search for MSD Aviation on pprune and you'll find some interesting stuff.

[chafra]

Constantly receiving their ad mails but never registered on their website.

[industry insider]

Obviously the self sufficient co-pilot training is hard to read:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1606x148/screen_shot_2019_05_02_at_6_08_04_pm_6b616551fb46b54d0d7ba34 0892439d718fb14a7.png

[beachbumflyer]

What we need is a effective lobby against P2F. National authorities are too slow and outnumbered. Inefficient work and intentional hindering of measures to counteract P2F made way for locust airlines. Mostly low costers advantegous and making money on the back of their crews. P2F providers should be officially revealed in public. Economically not viable airlines would be cut from their vital lifeline. Healthy ones would survive with pilot salaries increasing.
You are right, but there is nothing to do to change this as long as there are pilots willing to pay to get ahead of others- with more experience and better qualified- that only care about themselves and give a dam about others and the pilot profession, their profession.

[putrajbird]

Good day.
Unfortunately P2F is still a severe issue in India.
In Europe it's different and for instance Avaaz is collecting signatures to bring a petition forward. EU commission shall deal with it. On the contrary I'm afraid it won't change in India soon. Many fresh graduates and little job opportunities. When masses aren't doing well and starving they don't have much incentives to handle these issues.

[putrajbird]

I know Kasana and his fraudster friends. They harmed a lot of people. Didn't knew that he's still working in this business. Just search for MSD Aviation on pprune and you'll find some interesting stuff.

SKasana and MSD were big players in this dirty game. Rumors say he's somewhere in Europe. I think we can't bring P2F to an end but we can put some heavy obstacles in their way.

[Meester proach]

Things will never change, as long ago as 1995, when I was looking for that first job, guys were paying for 737 ratings , with British midland. Of the 2 I knew that did it, one ended up at regional on the EMB and the other got an earlier offer on the Fokker.

It was tough then, the gulf war had killed demand. At least there were many smaller airlines to apply to as a non TR pilot....not so now , cock up your chance with easy or Ryanair and there’s not many other places to go.

And the idea that any new pilot who’s just spent €120k on their licence will campaign against P2F is ludicrous, their classmates will just run them down in the rush to sign up.......just don’t be amazed when you do a few years with loco and try and move onto better TCs because there won’t be any.

[zloi]

Oh common guys, stop crying about p2f! You decided to be a pilot, it's a hard job requires experience and a lot of steps to get into that. Why some company should pay for you - with a fresh CPL you're nothing in a commercial aviation, you don't have experience and nobody knows how good you're. Flying C150 is nothing with flying commercial jet, the common thing are physics laws and it has wings. In all professions you have to invest in yourself in the beggining. In the IT world you go though the additional ceritifcation courses and then you get a proper job. Being a doctor is more nightmare in financial view. So what the difference between IT, doctor or some other jobs?

I paid for my TR after CPL and now I've got almost 2000 hours and waiting for the LHS upgrade on bizjet. Other people I know who paid for B737/A320/ATR72 TR, went flying airlines, and now they've got 3000+ hours and also are in upgrade for captains (and somebody is already). But yeah, you can have your ideal principles and do annual 1h recurrents on Seneca to keep your MEP/IR rating and stil writing in Internet how life is hard. Yes, it's always easy to blame somebody or something in your fails, because then it's sort of not your fault. Because if you try and you fail then it's only you to blame. But let me brake this down for you - if you want something, you have to work hard, get used to it, it's all up to you!

I heard/read a lot of blames "Oh I spent 150k+ for my CPL, why should I spend 100k+ for my TR". First of all, If somebody spent 100k+ for the CPL in Europe, then I really doubt about his ability to make a proper desicions, because in EU you easily can get 0 to fATPL for 40-50k max. Second, TR costs you 15k-20k only for a popular B737/A320. And third, I lot of companies still provides bonds for TR or you can agreed on details. And fourth, there are a lot of different types of aircrafts, not only 320/380/737/777. Most of the "against p2f" people from my experience don't want to go for "smaller" aircrafts, but the pilot market for the Pilatus/Mustangs/Caravans/etc is big. Yeah, the salaries are smaller, but if you decided to go to aviation to earn money - you've chosen a wrong job.

Peace!

[chafra]

Oh common guys, stop crying about p2f! You decided to be a pilot, it's a hard job requires experience and a lot of steps to get into that. Why some company should pay for you - with a fresh CPL you're nothing in a commercial aviation, you don't have experience and nobody knows how good you're. Flying C150 is nothing with flying commercial jet, the common thing are physics laws and it has wings. In all professions you have to invest in yourself in the beggining. In the IT world you go though the additional ceritifcation courses and then you get a proper job. Being a doctor is more nightmare in financial view. So what the difference between IT, doctor or some other jobs?

I paid for my TR after CPL and now I've got almost 2000 hours and waiting for the LHS upgrade on bizjet. Other people I know who paid for B737/A320/ATR72 TR, went flying airlines, and now they've got 3000+ hours and also are in upgrade for captains (and somebody is already). But yeah, you can have your ideal principles and do annual 1h recurrents on Seneca to keep your MEP/IR rating and stil writing in Internet how life is hard. Yes, it's always easy to blame somebody or something in your fails, because then it's sort of not your fault. Because if you try and you fail then it's only you to blame. But let me brake this down for you - if you want something, you have to work hard, get used to it, it's all up to you!

I heard/read a lot of blames "Oh I spent 150k+ for my CPL, why should I spend 100k+ for my TR". First of all, If somebody spent 100k+ for the CPL in Europe, then I really doubt about his ability to make a proper desicions, because in EU you easily can get 0 to fATPL for 40-50k max. Second, TR costs you 15k-20k only for a popular B737/A320. And third, I lot of companies still provides bonds for TR or you can agreed on details. And fourth, there are a lot of different types of aircrafts, not only 320/380/737/777. Most of the "against p2f" people from my experience don't want to go for "smaller" aircrafts, but the pilot market for the Pilatus/Mustangs/Caravans/etc is big. Yeah, the salaries are smaller, but if you decided to go to aviation to earn money - you've chosen a wrong job.

Peace!
hi zloi.
p2f always means that some good pilots still wait for a job while some bad pilots fly due to large pockets full of money.
this isn't only unfair, it's also completely wrong. you seem to be some lucky guy with some good parents and I wish you the best. But you are part of this toxic system and as long as there are pilots to engage in this scheme our position towards employers will always be weak. Instead of acting against your own colleagues one should support each other and fight for better working conditions and salaries. What you really don't see are long term consequences. You paid for your TR to get the first job. Let's say in a couple of years one other guy pays more to make a TR and to kick you out of the company. Who is going to save you if it gets that perverted? Mom and daddy? Or an even bigger amount of money to buy you back into the company? That's ridiculous. The global market is growing and we need to fight for our rights. Cheers

[zloi]

p2f always means that some good pilots still wait for a job while some bad pilots fly due to large pockets full of money
there is no evidence only good pilots wait for a job and bad pilots fly, it can be viceversa

you seem to be some lucky guy with some good parents and I wish you the best.
All my money I spent for flying I earned myself or borrowed in banks.

Let's say in a couple of years one other guy pays more to make a TR and to kick you out of the company. Who is going to save you if it gets that perverted?
I'm not afraid of it because I already proved I'm a good pilot and my company knows I'm good and can rely on me. In case I need to find another pilot job I will be able to prove my theoretical and practical knoweldge based on my experience.

Also, to find a pilot job in EU having a Russian passport I had to go through a lot of paperworks to get a work permit which took me about 4 months, and I have to renew it every 2 years + some additional stuff I have to pay for which regular EU person even don't know (insurance for my children, other paperworks and so on). So when some EU resident who has free access to the whole Europe job market tells me he cannot find a job - I cannot do anything just laugh.

The global market is growing and we need to fight for our rights.
Exactly, it's growing and changing and it's a market with its own demands. 10 years ago companies paid for TR due to lack of pilots, now there are a lot of them. Don't be a dinosaur like taxi drivers against Uber. To get a good job you need to prove you're good. How can you do that without experience? Why you didn't ask company to pay for your PPL training?

[mdcotonopu]

The North America part may be true now but a couple of yearss ago Gulfstream International Airlines and Gulfstream Training Academy had a program where students paid for a 1900D typerating and 250 hours.

[putrajbird]

there is no evidence only good pilots wait for a job and bad pilots fly, it can be viceversa


All my money I spent for flying I earned myself or borrowed in banks.


I'm not afraid of it because I already proved I'm a good pilot and my company knows I'm good and can rely on me. In case I need to find another pilot job I will be able to prove my theoretical and practical knoweldge based on my experience.

Also, to find a pilot job in EU having a Russian passport I had to go through a lot of paperworks to get a work permit which took me about 4 months, and I have to renew it every 2 years + some additional stuff I have to pay for which regular EU person even don't know (insurance for my children, other paperworks and so on). So when some EU resident who has free access to the whole Europe job market tells me he cannot find a job - I cannot do anything just laugh.


Exactly, it's growing and changing and it's a market with its own demands. 10 years ago companies paid for TR due to lack of pilots, now there are a lot of them. Don't be a dinosaur like taxi drivers against Uber. To get a good job you need to prove you're good. How can you do that without experience? Why you didn't ask company to pay for your PPL training?

zloi, everybody pays for the studies first. but airlines are winning big on pilots' shoulders through P2F. from my point of view you're just trying to justify the your own actions but it's not working. to pay for LT or hours package is creating an unbalance between employer and amployee. And you're promoting unequal screening and working conditions.

And it's not true, that P2F students undergo the same procedures in a screening. Much easier to get onto right seat if not guaranteed. But is it safe for passengers and everybody else involved in operation? Doubt that. I guess there's a high number of undisclosed incidents / accidents invoked by P2F garbage.

​​​​​

​​​​

[putrajbird]

I read that MSD is active in Ireland now, but someone named Kay Wachtelborn is CEO.

[zloi]

but airlines are winning big on pilots' shoulders through P2F
TR costs 15-20k, for airlines even cheaper - it's just a fuel cost for 2-3 flights on 737/320. Not a big amount of money for the company to save.

from my point of view you're just trying to justify the your own actions
as well as you try to justify from your side :)

you're promoting unequal screening and working conditions.
There are no equal screening conditions, somebody will be always better than other. Any guy with 4k hrs in the same types of flights will have more experience than me with 2k hrs.

Doubt that. I guess there's a high number of undisclosed incidents / accidents invoked by P2F garbage
There are no stats, so it cannot be true or false sentence

[putrajbird]

I also found an interesting thread in this forum.
Just search for "LION AIR PLANE DOWN IN BALI" and go to page 29.

What do you think about pay2fly now?

[zloi]

I also found an interesting thread in this forum.
Just search for "LION AIR PLANE DOWN IN BALI" and go to page 29.

What do you think about pay2fly now?

I suggest you're referencing to the post about MSD company? So, first of all, before signing the contract you have to read it and check the facts and conditions. Second, lion air is a crap airline, I wouldn't go there if I get a free TR from them and definitely don't want to have this company in my CV. P2F doesn't mean you go for any first ****ty opportunity you get.

[GanjiGirl]

I suggest you're referencing to the post about MSD company? So, first of all, before signing the contract you have to read it and check the facts and conditions. Second, lion air is a crap airline, I wouldn't go there if I get a free TR from them and definitely don't want to have this company in my CV. P2F doesn't mean you go for any first ****ty opportunity you get.


why are you advocating something that is obviously contraprodutive for the safety of the customers and adds to unequal competition between the pilots? it is an exclusive advantage for airlines with no scruples and wealthy new pilots!!

​​​​​

[GanjiGirl]

I read that MSD is active in Ireland now, but someone named Kay Wachtelborn is CEO.
found him on linkedin. he's listed as CEO at many companies, among them is Sky4u. according to Wikipedia they are also into pay2fly. you find them in the category brokers together with a partner named Intex-Aero.
​

[putrajbird]

found him on linkedin. he's listed as CEO at many companies, among them is Sky4u. according to Wikipedia they are also into pay2fly. you find them in the category brokers together with a partner named Intex-Aero.
​

I'll post some screenshots

[putrajbird]

found him on linkedin. he's listed as CEO at many companies, among them is Sky4u. according to Wikipedia they are also into pay2fly. you find them in the category brokers together with a partner named Intex-Aero.
​
Kasana is the key for banning P2F in India. just searching for some partners like Kay Wachtelborn to identify his network.
​​​​​

[putrajbird]

I suggest you're referencing to the post about MSD company? So, first of all, before signing the contract you have to read it and check the facts and conditions. Second, lion air is a crap airline, I wouldn't go there if I get a free TR from them and definitely don't want to have this company in my CV. P2F doesn't mean you go for any first ****ty opportunity you get.

zloi, I can highly recommend the Wikipedia article about social dumping, if it's accessible from your part of the world. Now social dumping at a crap airline affects safety in a new dimension. Lion air is only one example but a critical one because it changed the way how people are looking on labor conditions in airline or transport business. Many other airlines will shut down and some healthy will survive. Social responsibility is the key

[putrajbird]

Search for "truth about MSD" in this forum

[putrajbird]

I read that MSD is active in Ireland now, but someone named Kay Wachtelborn is CEO.
Look here...
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1306/img_20190511_142911_06a3872ccfbfe1505a82470d14854dd58369c7a0 .jpg

​​​​

[putrajbird]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1298/img_20190511_142720_320dcd130be44e889e838c98e3836c0d54738ee3 .jpg

[putrajbird]

Kasana is the key for banning P2F in India. just searching for some partners like Kay Wachtelborn to identify his network.
​​​​​
Proof of their collaboration
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x846/img_20190511_142409_2a6f03332427c70de6ae45119c4500f13a2daf45 .jpg

[putrajbird]

More proof
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1031/img_20190513_213234_cf855aa4a825643bda8ab58aea0d5d0d05297289 .jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x921/img_20190513_213202_94779019dc53b39319d8793a158d51f816a9d6be .jpg

[GanjiGirl]

I talked to my cousin, according to him a lot of people still interested in reimbursements MSD should pay back.

[GanjiGirl]

I did more research here in the forum.
Found an interesting topic ...

[GanjiGirl]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1303/img_20190514_114951_2437b75d777266f0f2a191ee582ada9d02915e91 .jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1311/img_20190514_115018_708e6faa14cce4a7f180d1b61221c3f5c9f2340c .jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x882/img_20190514_115045_5de1152033e7a74d3ab19b8a6189cee99c7f8676 .jpg

[GREATFEMPILOT]

Can you post more information pls?

[aronsha]

this is one piece of good research. the connection between them is clear. wachtelborns old company was intex, I assume they did business through that one. any first-hand informations?

[GREATFEMPILOT]

this is one piece of good research. the connection between them is clear. wachtelborns old company was intex, I assume they did business through that one. any first-hand informations?

Where is your evidence? More info pls

[robbiecando]

Where is your evidence? More info pls ​​​​Hi there. I found some stuff on Northdata. CO name is Intex UG from Weimar.

[robbiecando]

Seems that P2F is on the rise again.
Just had a look on the Jet Training website. They say they have partners in Europe, Africa and Far East. I'll try to get more information on that or if anybody else has details feel free to share.
​​​

[robbiecando]

This is nothing new and they continue business of course. Just have a look at their partners now. Even more disturbing!

[chafra]

This is gaining traction here. A good contribution would be to sign the EU petition. Or someone should start a petition on Avaaz.

[chafra]

This is nothing new and they continue business of course. Just have a look at their partners now. Even more disturbing!
​​​​​​​For me it's new and I had a better impression of Sky4u before I read above posts.

[robbiecando]

​​​​Hi there. I found some stuff on Northdata. CO name is Intex UG from Weimar.
enjoy
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1390/img_20190521_123323_0f760c0c62aa44921b24b6f3774933f99a5d2e00 .jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1393/img_20190521_123229_87baa9b3e6cbdaf6aea7d60b6af5cd275b7fc753 .jpg

[GREATFEMPILOT]

enjoy
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1390/img_20190521_123323_0f760c0c62aa44921b24b6f3774933f99a5d2e00 .jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1393/img_20190521_123229_87baa9b3e6cbdaf6aea7d60b6af5cd275b7fc753 .jpg
Can't take my eyes off. Thumbs up for your research!

[putrajbird]

I'm very thankful. Research is time consuming and to find useful stuff is another thing.
I'm concentrating on Kasana and his connections in India.

[putrajbird]

This is nothing new and they continue business of course. Just have a look at their partners now. Even more disturbing!
Who do you mean?

[Trevi85]

Obviously the self sufficient co-pilot training is hard to read:


Is this from Spain? Vueling or Volotea? I heard they do

[GanjiGirl]

I'm very thankful. Research is time consuming and to find useful stuff is another thing.
I'm concentrating on Kasana and his connections in India.
My brother has a police officer friend. According to him there's a police file for Kasana. I'm waiting for reply.

​​​​​​

[737crew]

Hi altogether
It seems that there's a lot of anger hidden in this thread. And people don't forget. After reading all the posts here and in other forums Kasana and Wachtelborn must be some crazy guys. Personally I don't know them but heard some rumors about Wachtelborn. It fits to what I read here. Kasana seems to be a ruthless one. Because they work together I suppose they are tarred with the same brush.
But they're not the only ones in this business. Eagle Jet and co are doing business for years and nobody is stopping them. Baltic should be stopped as well. They're surely not working in the best interest of the pilots. Just read their presentation. Horrible.
Everybody must decide on his own but always remember that we're killing our value as pilots.

[Ganzic]

Oh common guys, stop crying about p2f! You decided to be a pilot, it's a hard job requires experience and a lot of steps to get into that. Why some company should pay for you - with a fresh CPL you're nothing in a commercial aviation, you don't have experience and nobody knows how good you're. Flying C150 is nothing with flying commercial jet, the common thing are physics laws and it has wings. In all professions you have to invest in yourself in the beggining. In the IT world you go though the additional ceritifcation courses and then you get a proper job. Being a doctor is more nightmare in financial view. So what the difference between IT, doctor or some other jobs?

I paid for my TR after CPL and now I've got almost 2000 hours and waiting for the LHS upgrade on bizjet. Other people I know who paid for B737/A320/ATR72 TR, went flying airlines, and now they've got 3000+ hours and also are in upgrade for captains (and somebody is already). But yeah, you can have your ideal principles and do annual 1h recurrents on Seneca to keep your MEP/IR rating and stil writing in Internet how life is hard. Yes, it's always easy to blame somebody or something in your fails, because then it's sort of not your fault. Because if you try and you fail then it's only you to blame. But let me brake this down for you - if you want something, you have to work hard, get used to it, it's all up to you!

I heard/read a lot of blames "Oh I spent 150k+ for my CPL, why should I spend 100k+ for my TR". First of all, If somebody spent 100k+ for the CPL in Europe, then I really doubt about his ability to make a proper desicions, because in EU you easily can get 0 to fATPL for 40-50k max. Second, TR costs you 15k-20k only for a popular B737/A320. And third, I lot of companies still provides bonds for TR or you can agreed on details. And fourth, there are a lot of different types of aircrafts, not only 320/380/737/777. Most of the "against p2f" people from my experience don't want to go for "smaller" aircrafts, but the pilot market for the Pilatus/Mustangs/Caravans/etc is big. Yeah, the salaries are smaller, but if you decided to go to aviation to earn money - you've chosen a wrong job.

Peace!
Totally agree with you there.

I have seen cadets coming out of flight school without a faintest ReAl idea what they are going into. Airlines take a big risk when they hire you on a bonded scheme. So P2f is not the worst idea out there.
There is also supply and demand, as long as there is someone willing to pay for it, they will offer it...

I earned my wings as FI, than progressed to turbo props and than jets and every time I became better and better. I think this makes one a better pilot in the end. Current model is not correct, hence it's creating these loop holes like jump the queue aka P2f.

Soon people will realise that salaries are no longer there, work / life balance, benefits all gone, let alone glamour of our profession. Once supply runs out like it did in Russia, the system will be forced to change.

Anyway, public thinks we just push buttons and A/P does everything.

[travis.karl]

I'm very thankful. Research is time consuming and to find useful stuff is another thing.
I'm concentrating on Kasana and his connections in India.
Did you found something about this Guy?

[beachbumflyer]

F2F is just another way of being a scab, without crossing a picket line.

[GanjiGirl]

Kasana and his not so clean record.

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/delhi/Pilot-assaults-traffic-cop-held-at-SDelhi-farmhouse/articleshow/10734344.cms

​​​​​​

[DirtyProp]

Oh common guys, stop crying about p2f! You decided to be a pilot, it's a hard job requires experience and a lot of steps to get into that. Why some company should pay for you - with a fresh CPL you're nothing in a commercial aviation, you don't have experience and nobody knows how good you're.
Because you're doing a JOB they need?

Flying C150 is nothing with flying commercial jet, the common thing are physics laws and it has wings. In all professions you have to invest in yourself in the beggining. In the IT world you go though the additional ceritifcation courses and then you get a proper job. Being a doctor is more nightmare in financial view. So what the difference between IT, doctor or some other jobs?
I paid for my TR after CPL and now I've got almost 2000 hours and waiting for the LHS upgrade on bizjet. Other people I know who paid for B737/A320/ATR72 TR, went flying airlines, and now they've got 3000+ hours and also are in upgrade for captains (and somebody is already). But yeah, you can have your ideal principles and do annual 1h recurrents on Seneca to keep your MEP/IR rating and stil writing in Internet how life is hard. Yes, it's always easy to blame somebody or something in your fails, because then it's sort of not your fault. Because if you try and you fail then it's only you to blame. But let me brake this down for you - if you want something, you have to work hard, get used to it, it's all up to you!
You paid for it, you didn't work hard for it. See the difference?

I heard/read a lot of blames "Oh I spent 150k+ for my CPL, why should I spend 100k+ for my TR". First of all, If somebody spent 100k+ for the CPL in Europe, then I really doubt about his ability to make a proper desicions, because in EU you easily can get 0 to fATPL for 40-50k max. Second, TR costs you 15k-20k only for a popular B737/A320. And third, I lot of companies still provides bonds for TR or you can agreed on details. And fourth, there are a lot of different types of aircrafts, not only 320/380/737/777. Most of the "against p2f" people from my experience don't want to go for "smaller" aircrafts, but the pilot market for the Pilatus/Mustangs/Caravans/etc is big. Yeah, the salaries are smaller, but if you decided to go to aviation to earn money - you've chosen a wrong job.

Peace!
What a ton of rubbish. So you prostitute yourself and proud of it? Wow, congrats.

[DirtyProp]

Totally agree with you there.

I have seen cadets coming out of flight school without a faintest ReAl idea what they are going into. Airlines take a big risk when they hire you on a bonded scheme.
Yes, that's the concept of having a private enterprise (like an airline): you assume the risks in order to obtain the rewards. You don't dump the risk to your job candidates.

So P2f is not the worst idea out there.
There is also supply and demand, as long as there is someone willing to pay for it, they will offer it...

I earned my wings as FI, than progressed to turbo props and than jets and every time I became better and better. I think this makes one a better pilot in the end. Current model is not correct, hence it's creating these loop holes like jump the queue aka P2f.

Soon people will realise that salaries are no longer there, work / life balance, benefits all gone, let alone glamour of our profession. Once supply runs out like it did in Russia, the system will be forced to change.

Anyway, public thinks we just push buttons and A/P does everything.
Not true, you also keep lowering yourselves.

[robbiecando]

Hi altogether
It seems that there's a lot of anger hidden in this thread. And people don't forget. After reading all the posts here and in other forums Kasana and Wachtelborn must be some crazy guys. Personally I don't know them but heard some rumors about Wachtelborn. It fits to what I read here. Kasana seems to be a ruthless one. Because they work together I suppose they are tarred with the same brush.
But they're not the only ones in this business. Eagle Jet and co are doing business for years and nobody is stopping them. Baltic should be stopped as well. They're surely not working in the best interest of the pilots. Just read their presentation. Horrible.
Everybody must decide on his own but always remember that we're killing our value as pilots.
Other companies doing the same, but Kasana and Wachtelborn were too greedy. Kasana has bloody hands, Wachtelborn too. Just criminals
​​​​

[GREATFEMPILOT]

enjoy
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https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1393/img_20190521_123229_87baa9b3e6cbdaf6aea7d60b6af5cd275b7fc753 .jpg

What about the others and Kasana? Direct connections?

[putrajbird]

What about the others and Kasana? Direct connections?

I have some news.
Siddhartha concentrates on a new business. In India still plaintiffs waiting for updates. Many people never saw the money again. Rumours say kasana paid some judges to postpone a final ruling. Family is known for connections. But the victims don't sleep and they are looking for ways to get their money back. I guess he hided the stolen money with Wachtelborn's support. For sure it was Intex and now kasana has a stake in Sky4u.

[chafra]

Hi there. I tried to ask some guys that had some training with sky. They told me the training wasn't outstanding but somewhat cheap. They wouldn't go there for a type rating. Some of them were offered a job at Air Baltic (?). Cannot confirm it but it was kind of pay2fly. Salary pretty low and no guarantee after one season of flying like a mule. So I guess they're still in this business. Really don't know why RYR chose them as partner. Must be some personal connection. In the end you can't trust Sky's CEO. Anything they offer you will fill their own pockets.

[robbiecando]

Hi there. I tried to ask some guys that had some training with sky. They told me the training wasn't outstanding but somewhat cheap. They wouldn't go there for a type rating. Some of them were offered a job at Air Baltic (?). Cannot confirm it but it was kind of pay2fly. Salary pretty low and no guarantee after one season of flying like a mule. So I guess they're still in this business. Really don't know why RYR chose them as partner. Must be some personal connection. In the end you can't trust Sky's CEO. Anything they offer you will fill their own pockets.
One should ask why they stopped doing type ratings. Last year Cockpit4u took over several students for 737 TR that were originally supposed to do it at Sky4u. Behind the curtain the client said it was a complete chaos with them. Remember my words and the connections of sky before you choose.

[GanjiGirl]

Just had a phone call from my contact at the police. Said Kasana is now living in Berlin. What a coincidence. So close to Sky4u.

[bobby.barker]

One should ask why they stopped doing type ratings. Last year Cockpit4u took over several students for 737 TR that were originally supposed to do it at Sky4u. Behind the curtain the client said it was a complete chaos with them. Remember my words and the connections of sky before you choose.

a friend of mine visited SKY4u last year when they did TR for Turkish Airlines where he passed the assessment and has been told from THY that THY recommends to do the rating there, so they must be happy.
but what was disturbing was that SKY4u just fired their Head of Training Carsten Heblich at that time, a captain with Aerologic Cargo, and he must have left that chaos behind because of not doing a proper job but rather was trying to set up his own ATO "CABE" by using SKY4u books behind their back, but he failed greatly.
According to my friends observation, SKY4u CEO was meeting with Heblich on the rooftop of the office and he could hear what was going on while having a cigarette, Heblich threatening to sue SKY4u and "destroy them"... nice people in aviation!
finally my friend did the type rating with SKY4u and they where absolutely professional, even came up with a quick solution for the base training after Primera went bancrupt, where many touch and go were done before and now was not possible anymore...

make up your own mind, folks, visit the ATOs before deciding where to train...

peace...