Aviation jobs T&C, employment/self employment & national laws

[KT1988]

In order to have a thread dedicated to all airlines with employment and self employment contracts + national laws in different nations of the world I decided to create this thread in order to not litter airline specific threads with general terms and conditions discussion regarding all airlines and the different kinds of contracts you can get. I believe this is relevant for everyone whether they are already a pilot or just about to get all their ratings and look for an airline job.

In this thread we can go off topic into national laws, and all the other kind of stuff related without annoying anyone who is not interested to read about it. The discussion started in the Wizz Air thread and rapidly also involved LOT and Ryan Air Sun since they are already offering local contracts for companies. Contracts that are legal in Poland and many other Eastern European nations. In difference to what some people claim the EU can not create national laws or enforce stuff that is not signed by the member states and I believe in the future the EU will less and less try to force any state do to anything, because clearly voters in different EU nations wish to have sovereign nations since its not united states of Europe but a Union of independent nations to make flow of people and capital easier.

So my view is that its positive for pilots to get higher salaries and lower taxes and that it more than makes up for the minor risks a company contract differ with from an employment contract. I believe its also why many pilots from EU join airlines like Emirates all over the world because its profitable for the pilot and having a choice what kind of contract you wish is the perfect thing.

Let us discuss the different airlines and laws here so we do not litter all the other threads.

[Hawker400]

I believe this whole contractor deal is absolutely ridiculous and the same way that pilots can do away with certain securities for higher pay companies can race them a lot faster to the bottom and find employees who will accept the absolute least. I'm curious to see cases of this being challenged in EU court. Why would you work for a company if the only security you have is getting pay, and without throwing out names not even on the higher side?
I believe the SAIL SAS situation will be interesting to see how much strength unions have left in the rise of low-cost lowering costs era.
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[KT1988]

@Hawker400: So why do you believe the company deal with invoices are ridiculous? The deal is that you are hired as a company and you will get paid more cause the company hiring you will not have to pay tax for you to the state, and you can pay less tax also. Why should it be ridiculous that pilots working for one company should be able to pay the same tax as 100s of thousands of other professions in that national state who deliver their work as companies. Why do you believe a pilot should have to pay more tax than for example a doctor does? Where is the logic that you should give more money to the government because you work for one company? So if the national law allows for it why should pilots miss out on their salary?

I believe everyone should have choice of how they prefer to be employed and what kind of risk they can take in exchange for a higher salary. Why should pilots from EU have to go flying in Dubai or other places in the world to get a higher salary instead of being able to choose a scheme with a higher salary here in Europe? And it is actually cheaper to have your social security fixed by insurance than by the state since the state use the tax to everything from fancy toilets to administration while the insurance company does not have to spend on so much different things. Just check the price for a really good insurance.

And for the last part that you speak about "can race them a lot faster to the bottom and find employees who will accept the absolute least" why would that happen on company deals rather than normal employment deals? If the companies could find people willing to work as pilots for almost no pay they can legally employ them as employees for like 2100 PLN per month in Poland or even less in different other Eastern European nations. So its definitely possible to "race to the bottom" with employee salary deals just if the pilots accept them. The only difference between company and employee deals are what you are giving away to the state in taxes both you and the company......

As for SAS SAIL I believe those rules there are different than company employment in Poland by LOT or Ryan Air Sun since its something like the Switzerland deal of Wizz Air?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Of course I am the same kind of company as a doctor who is working for just one private clinic and why should I pay more tax than the doctor if I am a pilot?

As for saving money.... the link you pasted is what we pay as a company in state insurance..... not what an employee have to pay. An employee have to pay depending on his salary and end up paying over 5x the social security amount for companies (the employer pay but then reduce the salary accordingly since he have to pay ZUS and not you)....... in exchange for nothing more from the state. So an employee get lower salary cause the employer have to pay even over 5000 PLN per month for social security and the employee need to pay 32 % tax instead of 19 % from which you can deduct your costs.

And you give numbers from the USA for private school, everyone in Poland also people having private businesses are already paying taxes for free schools for their children. Of course many send them to private schools but it does not even cost 1/5 of the US price in Poland. As for private insurance its definitely not 5000 PLN per month the amount is like 300 PLN per month and private accountant is 300 PLN per month I do know cause I pay it. As for pension the airline will provide you NO PENSION if you are employee in Poland..... man the pension you get or sick leave is from the ZUS you are paying. And pensions ZUS will give you will be like peanuts because its already almost bankrupt. As for sick leave a private insurance will give you a lot more than ZUS or the state ever would in case you have an accident.....

Oh and I do not believe everyone is draining THE STATE for money if there is a social welfare system in a country. I believe the are draining people like pilots, doctors, businessmen, carpenters, plumbers you name it, for money that they have to pay to fund their welfare and to fund state administration and the politicians. Poland have no welfare state cant you get it? There is no welfare state so you do not miss on anything if you are employed as a company. As for brexit feel free to vote for it, personally I would be happy if the EU turned back to what it was in the beginning just an economical union allowing companies to invest anywhere freely. Other than that before EU pilots in Poland was much more of an elite profession than today so it would definitely not harm us if all prices fell its only a problem for those who wish to work other places not for those who wish to stay.

Summarizing: The airline got a pot to pay salaries for pilots, this pot depends upon a lot of stuff including how many pilots wish to work there and how many they need. So if the company got for example 100 000 Euro to pay a captain per year then it will not pay 120 000 if they have to employ the captain as an employee. What will happen is that they still pay 100 000 just first they pay for ZUS and the rest goes to the captain who have to pay 32 % tax for it as an employee. If the captain gets employed as a company he still get the 100 000 Euro and pay just about 1300 PLN for ZUS per month plus pay 19 % tax and he can deduct his costs from this tax so real tax will be lower. Do you understand that it means the captain will get a better salary as a company? The airline is not going to pay 120 000 Euro just because they are forced to employ people they will pay the same as long as there is an equal amount of pilots who wish to work there. They will still pay the same and you just get less in your pocket.

And as for race to the bottom I already explained it can be done with employees on employee contracts even easier. Its all up to pilots what terms and conditions suit them and its not a employed / self employed thing. Forcing everyone to be employed you just rob pilots of their netto salary transferring it to the government of the state where they live or work depending on the law, nothing else happens.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: The reason there is no welfare state is that it would totally not work in Poland no one in common professions would like to work (they would work of course just illegally while receiving the benefits) if they could just get money, 40 years of forced (not elected) socialism did the trick. Plus the politicians would just use the extra tax on more administration and building stuff by their befriended companies.

As for pension of course the airline can offer private pension packages. But as long as it does not have to (because pilots will not work there if not) it will not do it. And no it will not help if the state force them to it cause they will just deduct it from the salary and you are in the same spot. As for social responsibility, I am definitely not alone to believe private insurance gives you a lot more for less than paying tax. I do not want anything gone I wish that pilots get better contracts and that they shall be free to choose the kind of contract. For me a better contract is being employed as company and getting 120 000 instead of 100 000 Euro a so called pay rise. Than being employed and not getting more money but making the company use 120 000 without any benefit to me. As for the UK how do you know the companies do not give you less pay rise because they have to pay for the pension?

As for a country that today is the mightiest in the world and in the past it was almost perfect its USA. Not anymore but in the past when they saved the world from national socialists, and communist socialists and even before that. Once upon a time people there paid just value added tax and no tax on income. As for the insurance its not gonna cost more than the tax you would have to pay for it since the tax have to pay for administration and a lot of other stuff. And who told you the airline will pay you if you are on employee contract and get sick? Seriously what planet do you live on? Even in Norway the company pay you 16 days then its up to the state to pay you. And the state will not pay you more than 6G even in Norway with 47 % of tax on what you earn above 6G. In Poland the state will pay you much less. So insurance is actually the only option to get paid the full salary if you are sick.....

As for Poland or other Eastern European nations the point is relevant you are allowed to work for only one airline or company. They discussed to change the law but discarded it. Imagine how can you discuss changing a law to prevent something if the law already did prevent it? Seriously how can a parliament wish to make a change if stuff already was like they wished to change it into?

As for deducting expanses there is a lot starting with a car that you need to get to the spot where your contracting company wish you to work as a pilot, then fuel for the car, then payments for necessary insurances (yes your insurance from being economically responsible for a possible mistake is relevant to your job as a company as many others) payment for the accountant & lawyer, PC etc. itd. and most important of all for people who also invest. You can mix deductible things between everything you do as a company, so if you for example own an aircraft that you rent to some other company a flight school for example, then you can deduct expenses on this one from income you get at airline job etc. itd. And investing is definitely not forbidden not by Wizz Air or any other airline, so maybe its possible people at Wizz can not be part time FI but they can definitely own something they rent to someone I believe. And for example in LOT you are for sure allowed to be part time FI in your free time. So suddenly having a company helps a lot with everything if you have something to invest and do not spend everything you earn. For example when you buy another aircraft its an investment you can deduct etc. itd.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I believe you should have 100 % sick pay if you have paid your insurance if you lose your medical and that you WILL NOT get for your taxes even in Norway if you are an employee. The airline even in Norway will just have to pay first 16 days 100 % then you get maximum a salary of 6G that is about 50 % of a SAS captain salary even in Norway. So even when you pay 47 % tax from half of your income and 36 % from the rest the state will not give you 100 % sick pay. Do you really not understand? The insurance give you more than the tax even in a welfare state. Oh and the state require you to sit at home if you are to get sick pay, with insurance you can travel where you want if you periodically lose your medical (if you lose it forever then insurance will pay you a lot, while the state in Norway for example will pay you nothing if you do not accept their idea of you going to plumber school or carpenter school or becoming a truck driver whatever they invent for you and its they who choose).

My dream is that pilots can choose to be employed and pay high tax with a lower salary (because the employer have to pay ZUS or arbeidsgiver avgift or whatever is relevant in the country of pilots residence/work) and social security from the state or can choose to be employed as a company with low tax, higher salary no social security from the state but 100 % social security if they buy an insurance. A freedom of choice. While you wish everyone gets the same thing no matter what they wish themselves.

So what now is utter nonsense? Ask any company in Poland that help you do taxes and account for you and they will tell you everything I wrote about deducting taxes is true and they help you fix it if you have a company (and they are even responsible for you if something is wrong their insurance have to cover it).

[BarryMG]

@Hawker400: So why do you believe the company deal with invoices are ridiculous? The deal is that you are hired as a company and you will get paid more cause the company hiring you will not have to pay tax for you to the state, and you can pay less tax also. Why should it be ridiculous that pilots working for one company should be able to pay the same tax as 100s of thousands of other professions in that national state who deliver their work as companies. Why do you believe a pilot should have to pay more tax than for example a doctor does? Where is the logic that you should give more money to the government because you work for one company? So if the national law allows for it why should pilots miss out on their salary?

Yes, it's ridiculous that pilots working for one company should be paying more tax than 100s of thousands of other professions in that national state who deliver their work as companies - but not for the reason you mentioned, quite the opposite in fact. I have a surprise for you - those thousands of professionals do it illegaly too! The law is simple - if you work on your own account: you decide, when, where and how much you work, you use your own tools, and most importantly - you take the "business risk" - then you are a company, and you can be taxed as a company. If, on the other hand, you work for one (or even a few, doesn't matter) company regularly, on their terms, they dictate your hours, your schedule, etc. - then you are an employee and ought to have a contract that reflects that.

Actually the Polish labour law says that in such situation, if you meet the criteria for being an employee, it is an employment contract, irrespective of what it says on paper. That means that theoretically if anyone went to the court to argue that they signed a "contractor agreement", but in fact they were an employee, the court should rule in their favor. The problem is that nobody wants that, because nobody knows what would that mean for past taxation - if it would need to be paid and by whom. And that was the problem that you were describing with the latest developments in Poland - the situation has gone way too far, and now too many people stand to lose too much money if the law was suddenly started to be enforced.

Also, one more thing to consider - as an employee, you have a limited liability towards the company of 3 monthly salaries (excluding gross misconduct or willful damage). As a contractor - there is no limitation, that means if for example you damage the aircraft even accidentally (hard landing, runway excursion, not to mention an actual accident), you can be sued for the full amount - are you ready to pay a few millions if anything happens?

[IESS]

Good discussion, LOT seems to be profiting from this setup and there are no signs for a change in the near future.

What are your opinions about internationally available health and loss of license insurance?
Which ones you recommend and for what?

[KT1988]

@wondering: You hit the spot, if big companies do not have to pay taxes why shall pilots, doctors, carpenters, plumbers etc. pay the tax for politicians who just misuse the money (if they give anyone social benefits it will not be those who actually pay the tax, they rather buy some votes by giving money to everyone also those who never paid anything) no matter what you throw at them. And the benefits you get from being employed in Poland or many other nations do certainly not match the money you will miss in lower salary or tax, its cheaper to buy insurance.

As for playing with globalists, you know actually that today every small business that exist have it much harder to survive against the big companies in the corporationist systems than in a free market capitalism. Because today the states are cooperating with the big companies passing laws (lobbyists) that suit them and are hard to follow for the small ones. The states even the USA actually use tax money collected from the small businesses and employees to bail out the big ones with loans or gifts if they are actually going bankrupt. So the small businesses today pay tax to help the big globalists actually. So in "Manchester capitalism" if it is laissez-fair capitalism actually the small ones would have better chances against the big ones without the state (politicians) helping the big ones. In a laissez-fair capitalism we would probably have already for example an airline owned by pilot investors (owning shares) for example it would take 20 pilots investing 300 000 euro each (loan cover the rest) owning one big aircraft, then going together with other pilots (to have enough to be able to buy enough aircraft to get a proper price for them) and have a pilot owned airline in which pilots fly for themselves. Its also possible with the system today but much harder since the globalist owned ones got the politicians and can get them to make such regulations and pass such laws that the pilot owned airline would not survive. Now we got very far off topic but if the big corporations would do better in a "manchester capitalism" we would have it already today (politicians are mostly in their pockets or so do I believe), but we do not cause then big corporations would have to compete on equal terms with everyone else.

As for LOT its because the stuff is legal in Poland as the law is today. Why on earth would politicians discuss changing a law and then discard it, if the law was already as they wanted to change it into?

@BarryMG: As for being prepared to pay for accidents the best thing is again getting insured (that insurance can be deducted from tax) against it then you can sleep well at night. Other than that I heard a story at the flight school about a LOT captain who punctured a tire during landing and had to stay much longer on the runway. What happened was not LOT wishing him to pay for the tire but Ryan Air to pay for a go around of their aircraft because the LOT one could not vacate the runway as fast. And actually after Ryan Air handed the bill to LOT they handed it to the captain but then "they woke up" and from what I heard the case was solved between LOT and Ryan Air (probably LOT did not want to pay for the go around but I do not know if it ended in court). Either way the captain did not have to pay (the go around did not cost millions so he would actually be able to pay for it also with 3 monthly salaries if he was employed), but I would definitely sleep better being insured. So my solution is insurance.

My point is that no national state not even Norway will ever give you the same benefits for the tax as you can get being insured. And the insurance will be lower than the respective tax. Example in Norway that everyone believe got perfect social security a captain earning 105 000 euro yearly have to pay 36 % tax from half of it and 47 % from the other half of it. So its a lot right? But if he is sick he get just the first 16 days 100 % from the airline, afterwards the state he paid the giant tax to will just give him 50 % sick pay because its limited up to 6G basic sick pay. So no matter how you turn it..... the solution is insurance and not more tax.

[SpGo]

If the captain gets employed as a company he still get the 100 000 Euro and pay just about 1300 PLN for ZUS per month plus pay 19 % tax and he can deduct his costs from this tax so real tax will be lower. Do you understand that it means the captain will get a better salary as a company? The airline is not going to pay 120 000 Euro just because they are forced to employ people they will pay the same as long as there is an equal amount of pilots who wish to work there. They will still pay the same and you just get less in your pocket.

All correct, but the money will be in the account of the company. How will the captain transfer money to his personal account without the taxman qualifying that as a taxable salary? The captain won’t be able to buy a house as he has no income....
All doable, but not as simple and cheap as you think and certainly not without risk.

[KT1988]

@SpGo: The captain is not having a shareholding company, he have single self employment company as is legal in Poland and can use his money as he pleases. The only expenses he need to document with an invoice are those he wish to get a refund of value added tax and get them deducted from the taxable income. It is a single person company not an SA or sp. zoo. and a single person company can of course invest like buying and renting aircraft or anything else it might wish to do.

@2unlimited: First of all I will give you exact numbers for insurances when I will get them when I will starting the job. As for know I know approximate numbers and they are much lower than the tax. And its even logical since tax have to be spent to pay for state administration, political expenses, buying votes, building fancy toilets you name it.... while insurance just need to cover what it insure and a reasonable profit to the insurance company.

As for a comparison between nations as I told you before everything Norway got is cause of luck and help from other states. Before World War 2 Norway was the poorest state in Europe even poorer than Poland (check the statistics in wikipedia or anywhere else) and were not industrializing like Sweden or Denmark (with exceptions like Hydro). During the war they were lucky that the national socialists did not feel like burning more to the ground than only Finnmark while they for example razed whole Poland. Then Norway was lucky to get Marshall help from USA, who could give this help because they had a different non socialist system and actually an economy that made it possible, instead of getting liberated by the Soviet Union and getting forced into socialism/communism (the Soviets were already in Finnmark so its a miracle they did not decide to "liberate" the whole nation). And in the end Norway found oil extreme amounts of it taken into account the Norwegian population. Yet you believe its not pure luck..... like winning in eurojackpot.

As for the salary comparison we are not comparing average salaries for everyone in the country, its Norwegian choice that they decide to pay like 50 000 Euro salaries per year for entry level jobs requiring no special education its part of what makes everything so expensive. Here we are comparing the situation for pilots who get paid well all over the world and do not need to work in Norway to be paid well just like engineers, IT programmers etc. Its about pilots and not factory workers here.....

For pilots the situation is as I said a SAS captain receiving 105 000 Euro (or more give the proper number if you think you know it) in Norway will pay like 36 % tax from half of it and he will pay 47 % tax from the rest of it. If he gets sick he will only get 16 days 100 % from the airline and then just up to 6G basic pay from the state so he will get just 50 % sick pay while paying the enormous tax. And if he is so unlucky to totally lose his medical then if he wants anything to be paid by the state he must accept whatever the state thinks he should do. They can send him to get CE license and drive a truck, but just as well they can send him to carpenter school or plumber school or whatever they see fit and they are the ones to choose. If the captain decline he get nothing.... With insurance he get a big sum of money in case of loss of license and can choose what he feels like doing next in the unlucky event.

So a Ryan Air captain getting almost 100 000 Euro including bonuses with a base in Poland will live like a king compared to the SAS captain in Norway even if the SAS captain earn 130 000 Euro with bonuses in Norway. And the captain living in Poland will not have the factory workers point at him as someone bad for having a "million lønning" and will not read in the papers that he deserve to be taxed to death with tax cause he dare to earn more than a factory worker. In Poland success is cheered upon and not envied by the society if you want to talk about other qualities of living. Also the state in Poland do not wish to control your private life like the state in Norway and put særavgift (special tax) on everything the state thinks you should not be doing.

As for LOT and Ryan Air Sun and Enter Air and also probably Sprint Air (I do not know what Wizz Air does with the Switzerland stuff) they are actually helping their pilots get the same polish deal as any doctor or plumber or carpenter etc. gets in Poland (while working for single private company) and to be able to keep more of their salary. Why should the airlines wish for their pilots to have worse terms than other people working in Poland? And why should pilots have to pay more tax than other professions?

PS. I do not know the Ryan Air Sun deal but LOT gives you a deal with guaranteed hours per month like 45 hours salary. And it is for companies also so you get paid during the winter, and if you fly for Ryan Air Sun and they let you fly 700-800 or even 900 hours per year as some people say. Then you get your salary just more in the summer and less in the winter but over all a Captain with all bonuses will get his about 100 000 Euro per year. And its really no matter when during the year (in Ryan Air) you get it...... unless you believe everyone is so irresponsible to spend everything he gets at once and never save money....

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Why do you come up with Wizz Air salary when I told you it was Ryan Air captains who could get about 100 000 Euro with all bonuses on company contract ? Why divert into something I did not say? Because it does not fit into your view of the world ?

As for bending the law I can not imagine how your friend can earn 110 000 - 125 000 Euro per year and pay 35 % tax on this salary in Norway https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/nor/eng/i07.asp the only way it is possible I believe is something like having 5 children etc. not living with him that he have to pay for or something like that....... so he can deduct it from the tax. The tax bracket is more confused now than it was when I lived there but looks like he still have to pay the same with such a salary per year. Before it was 36 % up to 536 000 NOK and then like 47 % for everything earned above that. In addition to that you have særavgift (special tax) on goods that the state believe you should not have like for example a car that is fun to drive. But they shall have support from me for the laws regarding sea and boats, all honor to Norway tax free boat fuel, boats for the same price as rest of Europe and almost free to do what you wish when on the sea.

Oh and I do not wish to start the great socialist off topic, but I do know national socialists are just a much more wicked and crazy part of the socialist ideology "tree" even if they did maybe murder less people than the communists I still find them even more crazy. And how can they not be socialists if they wish the state control the finances totally, more money to social security (only for those who are of their nation/race) and also the state to control totally the life of the individuals. Oh and they also thought about capitalists as the evil of the world just like communists did. Capitalism is the total opposite of any kind of socialism cause capitalism is total freedom and equality of rights for people of the whole world no matter who they are and where they come from.

As for all the personal stuff you write.... my family moved to Norway mostly cause my mother wanted to as a doctor in 1997 long before Poland was member in the EU. And Norway actually wanted doctors and invited them to come so it was just as much helping Norway get their health care queues lower in exchange for salary. I did not want to move (I was 8 then).... so when I was able to I returned home.

As for Norway well maybe the politicians were not corrupt because they did not have 40 years of forced communism/socialism to teach them how to? And its also just luck that Soviets did not wish to "liberate" Norway after getting Finnmark. And that the USA who so many in Norway do not like, gave free marshall help to Norway. Oh writing in the same way as you do I would suggest Norway pay their 2 % for NATO cause Poland is paying 3,7 % already (and its also much more in cash) or should the US just let Putin get the Norwegian oil platforms and fish their fish with their trawlers (cause clearly even the soviets did not wish the Norwegian mainland) ? Its that kind of funny nonsense you are writing........ Oh and BTW before you start telling me we should be afraid of Russia. We hated forced communism/socialism and NOT Russia (even Russians were suffering from forced communism). Russia today is a state with 13 % linear tax and foreign captains in Aeroflot do not have any bad conditions.... so no we are not scared of Russia only some politicians are for propaganda purposes. Personally I like both Russia and any other Eastern European nation.

As for leave and vacation imagine pilots in Ryan Air got 5 on and 4 off roster in addition to the vacation, and pilots in LOT get so much free time they have time to be part time instructors, or do a lot of other flying that they are allowed to with their contract (I do not know what Wizz Air require so do not come with Wizz Air does this..... and that... so every other airline do the same).

PS. So clearly if you got more salary and less tax you would not buy an insurance? And you would also spend every single penny and never save anything? I understand some people in the west got different mentality but seriously you do not have to spend everything you earn. In Norway they have a funny program called luksusfellen where they show how sometimes such mentality of spending and spending ends.

P.PS. Get insured from fatigue also and your problem is solved, still cost less than tax and give you 100 % sick pay.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Anywhere: PZU, AXA, Prudential, https://www.xinsurance.com/risk-class/pilot-liability/ for stuff like the liability (but from what I know no company have sued their pilots for an accident in Poland, only Ryan Air who sued LOT for a go around and first the captain got it but then LOT changed its mind and did the stuff with Ryan Air themselves).

As for what Putin would love I believe it would be to get a different form of EU including Eastern Europe with Russia in control and not annexation. But we go into speculative off topic again trying to figure out what Putin thinks, the terms for foreign captain at Aeroflot and Russian tax are definitely not bad. And as far as unions go we got a union with Germany, why being so afraid of Russia? People in Poland hated forced communism/socialism and NOT Russia (who suffered too from forced communism). But back to serious stuff about NATO and EU is that EU have nothing to do with NATO. And as far as NATO is concerned US think Poland is a great ally who pay 3,7 % BNP for NATO (according to Polish news) while Norway fail to pay the mandatory 2 % so I do not know who should be more afraid that US will skip helping them.

[flightbooking]

Let me suggest one thing, why don't Poland start paying some tax to rebuild their own country, and contribute to NATO for NATO protection, if not you can always let Putin take back Poland, as that is one of his many dreams.



Poland is one of the few countries that spends 2% of its GDP on NATO contributions according to the agreement. In fact spends more on this than Norway.

https://www.euronews.com/2018/07/10/nato-contributions-country-by-country

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: All I said is that captains in Aeroflot get good money and low tax. And yet again you tell me about all the people in Russia and not pilots. Its about pilot terms not what a factory worker get paid. Next thing will probably be how much a factory worker get in Dubai and not what Emirates pay pilots..... (only reason I would not like Dubai is because of having to live there in a big city surrounded by a desert while I prefer villages/towns in Eastern European countryside not far from the airport base).

As for insurance you can have sickness insurance and loss of license insurance. If you have papers from you doctor that you are ill and unable to fly then the insurance will pay you simple as that. If you are employed with no insurance you get some peanuts from ZUS in Poland when sick. So what is the reason to be employed if you do not get any benefit? Private medical insurance in Poland is like 300 PLN per month for the best package. And in case you got children you have to pay exactly as much for private school if you are employed as if you work as company. And the official school is not reserved for those who are employed only.

Ryan Air Sun is not giving a "better" deal than Ryan Air. It just do the same simple stuff as LOT which means no Switzerland or Ireland or other strange unnecessary scheme for company employment just a straightforward polish kind of company employment. Which means all the rules are simple as for LOT. And Ryan Air captains can reach 100 000 Euro per year on a company contract with all the different bonuses. I do also believe Wizz Air will soon give pilots in Poland the same option as LOT and Ryan Air and skip Switzerland since its not necessary to make such complicated schemes. Enter Air and Sprint Air do also give the simple Polish company deal for pilots.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Insurance companies get money from people who insure themselves. Imagine that most people are not sick all the time.... Just as cars do not crash all the time but people still pay for the insurance. Oh and Prudential for example is an insurance company that is worldwide not only for Poland, many other insurance companies that are worldwide insure people in Poland.

So tell me how do you think a state can pay social security for the people in exchange for tax income if the state have to also pay for politicians, state administration, collection of the tax, building fancy toilets etc. itd. magic? No actually the state take a lot more tax than an insurance company have to get paid since it only have to insure people and make a little profit for itself. Insurance is and will always be cheaper than an insurance through tax. Oh and insurance actually care how much you insure yourself for, unlike the state that give the same deal to everyone no matter how much tax they pay. So for example a SAS or NAS captain in Norway have to pay much more than a factory worker in tax but he get a worse deal from the state since factory worker get 100 % sickness pay (since he do not earn more than 6G) while the captain get 50 % all the time when the captain actually paid a lot more tax from the income above 6G....... It does not require more than a little logic to understand that insurance companies offer a better deal for a lower price (since they do not have the expenses a state have and do not have to pay for people who are not insured).

As for Ryan Air Sun I do know the reality and it is an employment on the same company deal as LOT does use that is local Polish employment as company according to Polish law (no Ireland, no Switzerland no complicated scheme). Same stuff as everyone from doctors to plumbers working for private companies in Poland can use. I actually spoke with an FO who works there (and is ATPL theory lecturer in free time) and I also spoke with a captain who works there. The same deal is present at Enter Air and Sprint Air from what I heard.

By the way how are pilots in Emirates or other places employed? I believe also as companies since they do not have to pay tax (or pay very low tax)..... still people travel all the way to Dubai to get such a deal and you say its bad for everyone..... Well why do they travel and work there then, its not like its entry level job to fly wide-body they are actually experienced pilots going there.... and in Poland I never heard any instructor (already flying in airlines) say he dream of Lufthansa or KLM but I heard some say Emirates would be perfect.

[Skornogr4phy]

I enjoy working for a company that pays me sick pay and pays me a pension, who I work for as a full employee. I enjoy living in a country that uses at least some of my tax to help those less fortunate than I am.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I will search for some of the insurance information that you ask about when I have time, I thought you wanted the name of insurance companies who offer that and wanted to check yourself the prices. The insurance is insurance in case you are sick and cover the loss of income while you are sick, if fatigue makes you unable to fly and the doctor will confirm it then it will also be paid as if you were sick. If you are not sick then you would not get paid even in Norway since you still need to get the doctor to actually check that you are sick. No one will pay you sick pay if you have no document from a doctor.

-You are medical insured already in Poland when self employed just as if you were employed since you still pay ZUS and have the right to use public hospitals, so the medical insurance you need is to use the private clinics who are better and its 399 PLN (less than 100 euro) per month: https://www.luxmed.pl/dla-pacjentow/pakiety-medyczne/pakiety-medyczne-dla-doroslych-i-dzieci/wybierz-pakiet/pakiet-premium-dla-doroslych-i-dzieci/ its the cream of the crop and you even get private dentist included in the price if you need it (not even in Norway does the state give you dentist for your tax money).

-Private retirement pension its like 100 different companies that offer different schemes. I would advise you to make your investments and your very own private pension so put away money in the bank or on a fund like Skagenfondene etc. and when you get enough money buy an aircraft that you can rent, then another one, or you can buy flats/houses in Poland that you can rent but they are not as profitable as aircraft you can rent to flight schools for example or to people who wish to hour build. But if you want someone to do it for you then it depends on you how much you want to save for pension and what you expect to get. The pension you would get from ZUS if you were employed not as company would be some peantus either way so you are not missing anything when being employed as a company.

-And separate insurance a for total loss of license, I will check the price I remember to have seen an insurance company insuring you for 1 million euro in that catastrophic event of losing the medical license totally and forever. And this was even not very expensive of course you must give them you medical records so they can assess the risk. And the insurance sum get lower the older you get so they will not give you 1 million euro if you are like 60 years of age and got 5 left of commercial flying (except as FI since FIs can fly even past 65 with students) when losing the medical license forever.

-As for the price for private school for 1 child I have absolutely no idea since I have no children but I can check. Either way employed or not you get for free the national school so once again the employed ones do not get any benefit vs the company employed.




As for me LOT started with the new system to be more competitive on..... salary. Because now they can offer higher salaries to their pilots not having to pay ZUS and the pilots get a higher netto salary since they pay much lower tax and the minimum ZUS. The pilots lose nothing compared to being employed while they get more money. So maybe they did it to compete on salary with Wizz Air and Ryan Air I do not know. But pilots earn more than they would otherwise and they do not miss out on any social security from the state. They can still use national hospitals and still use national schools as if they were employed directly. The only think they miss is a peanuts retirement pension from ZUS when the get 65 years old and retire.

And once again its legal in Poland its the same scheme as doctors, plumbers, carpenters and everyone else working for single private company in Poland can get. And what dump working conditions..... I just explained to you they got better terms a higher salary both total and netto salary.

As for Ryan Air I can understand that people are not happy if they work for them as employee having to pay tax and in a high cost nation with high taxes. Their salary is maybe lower than NAS etc. But NAS have no base in Poland neither for employees or private contracts. And Ryan Air captain salary or NAS captain salary can not be compared to legacy carrier like Lufthansa where you have to maybe be FO for 20 years before you get captain. So ofc Lufthansa will pay more but how many years of work do the captain have left with the Lufthansa captain salary? And how many spots do they even have for fresh pilots at such legacy carriers like Lufthansa or KLM? Either way I did actually not hear any instructor at my school say it was their dream job in Lufthansa, KLM, BA they would rather go to Emirates actually.

Personally I prefer to have a base in Poland and actually as far as I know every single airline offer self employed contract in Poland (with exception of that strange Wizz Air contract both for employees and company employees trough Switzerland) LOT, Ryan Air, Enter Air, Sprint Air. And LOT are the only airline that also have wide-body aircraft for their more experienced pilots but recently they offer it also to direct entry pilots from outside the company who got proper experience (since it showed up some captains on the short haul fleet did not wish to be FO again on 787).

Either way the point is: that being employed in Poland give you literally nothing so pilots should rather press for higher salaries and terms into their self employment contracts. Like for example that LOT guarantee payment for minimum 45 flight hours per month no matter if you fly so many or not (of course if you fly more you get paid more) and all of this on a self employment contract without having to go the way around the state and paying extra taxes for.... nothing.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I am curious how do you believe it is working in your dream social security place with high tax ? Of course you need to go to a doctor and get a proof that you are fatigued for real before the state will start giving you sick pay, the same goes with insurance. Did you really believe people could just say "I am tired I will have 2 weeks extra holiday and let the insurance/state/employer pay" you must visit a doctor that its serious fatigue and to find out what is causing it because it does not need to be the job actually.

As for companies dictating terms, yes as long as there are more pilots who wish to work than the company need to fly their aircraft it is the airline market. And it can only change if more pilots leave than new pilots join (more important are captains since they are harder to replace). The state is NOT needed as a middle man. Why did LOT give pilots guaranteed hours per month without the pilots being employed if its impossible to get better terms without the state being the middle man according to you?

As for insurance I already told you it covers a lot more than the tax would cover and it is cheaper its simple logic. Seriously do you not understand that the state have to use the tax on politicians, administration, fancy toilets/buildings, bright political ideas like paying for modern culture that no one would pay a ticket to watch, you name it and the politicians are throwing your money at it already..... so how do you believe the tax can cost less than an insurance, where do politicians get money? magic and not pockets of everyone working?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I think you believe being employed give you the same rights as in Norway. I thought you talked about long term fatigue that you get sick pay for. While what you talk about is the Norwegian egenmelding that would make me never ever wish to be an employer in Norway (it actually happened in Norway that an employer took pictures of employee partying and drinking while on egenmelding in a pub, it was in the newspaper but the state did not care and he had to pay full salary so the employee could call sick and go drink).

Well imagine that if you are employed in Poland as employee and not company you do still have to go to a doctor there is no egenmelding in Poland and I believe very few nations got it. So being employed as employee in Eastern Europe is not being employed as employee in Norway do you not understand?

Its fun to watch your belief that being employed means the same as being employed in Norway. Recently someone wrote in wizz air topic that in Lithuania an employer can fire you and give you 2 weeks only.... and you still believe its worth paying tax to be employed in Eastern Europe?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Its the employment law in Lithuania from the state so you have exactly the same chance to negotiate a better employment contract with an airline as you have to negotiate a self employment contract. So tell me why do you believe the airline will give you more if you decide do be an employee than if you decide to be self employed?

So again, you did not explain me how you get paid if reporting fatigue when you are employed and not self employed in an Eastern European nation and not in Norway where you can send an egenmelding. Its no difference if you are employed so why pay more tax and get lower salary if you are not getting paid either way.

You talk a lot that self employment is bad but you fail to explain what benefit it is to be employed instead when you are not living in Norway but for example living in Poland or Lithuania or in many other nations in the world?

As for practical solutions I believe you can report fatigue to your airline no matter if you are employed or self employed and then you will probably fly an another day when you would normally not fly and get paid the equal amount since you believe most people at for example Ryan Air or Wizz Air get to fly 900 hours per year either way. And since you can not fly more than 900 commercial hours per year then you would not get to fly more if you did not report the fatigue. As for airlines like LOT I believe you can risk not getting many more than the guaranteed 45 hours in that month if you report fatigue but probably they will just give you a flight when someone else report fatigue or sick that fly the same aircraft in the same position (FO or Captain). I have not worked for any airline so I do not know and I am honest about it.

But the point is: What benefit in reporting fatigue or anything else do you get from being employed instead of self employed since you believe employment is sooo much better. And we are talking about Poland, Lithuania, Eastern Europe etc. itd. not Norway where being self employed do not give you any benefit since you still get equal tax and where you actually get something from being employed. I can agree with you being employed in Norway is good, but what about the rest of the world especially Eastern Europe why being employed should be good for you?

As for using national school or roads: How can the state take value added tax from me when I buy anything from bread to a home, if it does not wish to give me anything in return? How can the state ask me to pay 70 % of gasoline price in tax if it is not to maintain or build the road? How can I have to pay road tax (like bompenger in Norway) every time I use A2 or A1 autobahn in Poland if its not to pay for the road? I do already pay the tax for all that stuff plus I actually pay tax as self employed (from what my aircraft earn) just less tax than if being employed. So why should big companies pay less tax than pilots, doctors, plumbers etc. ? Pilots, doctors, plumbers etc. deserve not to be taxed more than the big companies. Oh and I do actually pay the medical part of ZUS (mandatory but not income dependant) for normal hospital (I still prefer to pay additional for private one), I just do not have to pay the income dependent part for pension but the basic one (and will not receive one) since I do not even believe there will be any pension for the employees or anyone else after ZUS go bankrupt or it will be peanuts.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: If you are on local contract who is paying you the sick pay? ZUS in Poland will give you peanuts and you get to pay 32 % tax its cheaper to get insured. I do not know what notice period you get in LOT or Ryan Air I just said what the Lithuanian guy said about employment as employee in Lithuania.

The pay is not the same if you have to pay 32 % tax instead of 19 % tax with possible deductions not to mention you can deduct value added tax from many things or if you do not wish to deduct anything you can get fixed tax of 9 % that is being chosen by many pilots in for example LOT who do not have any other investment like a flat or aircraft for rent going on.

Where did I say I believed Ryan Air will save Polish aviation (and who said it must be saved, imagine that if people in Poland start flying as much as people do in western Europe there will be needed an extreme expansion of the airlines which will mean there will be a MANY jobs with bases in Poland. More than there are Polish FOs and Polish Captains) ? I just said they currently probably give the best salary with a base in Poland and that captains might with all bonuses get even up to 100 000 Euro per year. Still money is not everything for everyone since flying is also about enjoying it and realizing dreams. So as I said if I were to choose freely I would like 787 in LOT even with less salary. But as a completely new pilot after I get my licenses and will only get FI extra flight time.... I will be happy with absolutely any airline no matter what kind of aircraft it got.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Actually what terms and conditions a company like Wizz Air, Ryan Air, LOT, Enter Air, Sprint Air offer is up to the company and people who wish to work for them. So its decided by how many pilots they need compared to how many pilots wish to work for them. Nothing else can change it..... its the natural law of supply and demand.

As for responsibility, you do know that even in Norway companies pay only 16 days of sick pay and then its up to the state to pay it from tax money? So there is no nation where its not up to the government and that is what employee tax goes for, and self employed pay less tax because they decide to insure themselves not through the state. And BTW why do government want tax if it want no responsibility, I agree government should not have any responsibility and therefore not get the tax but so long as they force us to pay tax they must be responsible.

What kind of rules are you talking about now that companies and countries like Poland do not follow? EU is an economic union to make easier flow of capital and that is what it should remain, even as it is now each country is sovereign and make its own rules and laws. There is no EU law that can be enforced on anyone who does not sign it. Every country is free to make its own tax rules as it wish, and it was in EU interest to expand so German companies could sell their stuff all over eastern Europe and get workers they needed. Why do you think EU so strongly wish that Ukraine do not join with Russia again? Do you believe its because EU wish to be kind to them, really? Its about selling their products and getting qualified labor from Ukraine not about being kind and nice.

You are not giving any money to any country you are doing what all nations in the EU agreed to do including UK. And if you do not like it you leave it just as UK is doing and no one will prevent you from doing so. I do not believe EU expanded eastwards to be kind and nice but because it was the economic interest of at least Germany and France. But this is a political discussion and not the point.

The point is that such as the law is today in most Eastern European nations there is no benefit to be employed, you only lose money by doing that. And why do you believe airlines would rather give better terms and conditions to employees and not to self employed people? And as for "unions" it should be even simpler for self employed people to negotiate than for employees. Who can prevent for example 1000 self employed captains go together to the administration of an airline and say that they wish a higher salary or else they can not deliver company service to the airline such as the terms are right now and they will stop after the contracted period ends everything according to the law they are companies not employees. I believe there is no airline that can get 1000 new captains immediately it would probably make the whole company stop flying and probably even go bankrupt or at least lose extreme amounts of money if those captains left. So the company would for sure negotiate new better self employment terms. You know self employed do not need any strikes and stuff like that they are not employees they can just lawfully say they are unable to provide their services beyond the current contracts under actual terms and conditions.

But of course such a thing can only work if there are not 1000 captains with no job waiting for their jobs, but if the supply and demand change and there will be more demand for captains than there is supply of new captains. Then every company will have to give better terms no matter if the captains are employed or self employed. AND the captains will be receiving more money with a pay rise as self employed than they will as employees since the state will not get their share as tax (in exchange for nothing from the state).

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I think you do again not understand. The point is supply and demand, if there are no 1000 other captains waiting to get a job at the company it will be the company that will be afraid to loose 1000 self employed captains (they do not need to unite formally they can have unformalized closed forum for example)...... so firing them would just make the problem come at the airline immediately that means: no one to fly the aircraft...... As I said its supply and demand. Of course its pointless for anyone to negotiate anything if there are 1000 new captains waiting for the job at that airline, but the day the demand for captains is bigger than supply.....

As for the fatigue I understand what you mean but people who are employed as employees have exactly the same problem. So why do you blame it on self employment if the problem is exactly the same for employees ?? As for self employment actually if the airline decide it will pay for fatigue it will do so to everyone also self employed. Just as LOT Polish Airlines gave EVERYONE 45 hours guaranteed payment its not like if you are self employed you do not get the same terms and conditions. Still you believe self employment is something bad.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: So you are trying to tell me that a company have no legal right to refuse a contract or to end it after the period included in the agreement with the contractor? Seriously? Have you never ever seen that companies as business to business can refuse renewed contracts with a certain company unless they get a new better deal?

Seriously do you believe only employees can resign from their job? What I just told you is a situation in which the demand for pilots or exactly said captains will be greater than supply of new captains (I do not include FOs since people will always wish to get their first airline job, even if it was for free) the company would definitely not wish to fire all or almost all of its captains in such a situation. Because that would result in grounding of all the aircraft..... and it would be impossible to get them flying again without giving new contracts to the self employed captains since not enough other captains would be interested in the job at current terms and conditions (demand exceed supply). Its the basic law of economics and the free market the law of supply and demand.

Regarding employment: So if you are legally employed but in Eastern Europe you will not get all of this that you are talking about. So tell me then why on earth should someone wish to be employed and not self employed while working in Poland for example? As for bargaining power do you believe small companies working for a big company can not negotiate together really?

Explained what that it does not fulfill the criteria of being self employed in certain nations? Can you imagine that there are no worldwide law for every nation on earth that dictates what are the criteria of being self employed? Seriously are you not getting that law is different nation from nation and that there are no criteria that apply to the whole world.

Every nation have DIFFERENT laws, therefore for example Norway can jail people for speeding even if the whole world does not do it and may think that its crazy. Still no one can force Norway to not do it, the same way with laws regarding taxes and business they differ between different nations.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: The law of economics work like that: pilots want to fly aircraft and there are more pilots who are qualified to fly than the airline need which means they can offer contracts like they do. But if the airlines will need more than there are qualified pilots who wish to fly its only then the salaries will be racing upwards. And the only chance I can see this happening is lack of captains if the predictions from Boeing and Airbus are real about the future aircraft to pilot ratio.

Just look to China they got some extreme medical requirements plus a rapidly growing aircraft fleet in addition they take their time to finish the medical assessments, so they have to pay extreme salaries because few pilots wanna risk waiting 6 months for a job they may not get if they will not get the Chinese medical that got some strange requirements from what I heard. If China decide that they accept EASA medical then salaries will probably drop immediately.

Its the law of demand and supply that run the whole worlds economics the basic law of economy and if you can not see it then its you living in an another world.

As for the issue with fatigue/unfit how shall I address it otherwise than saying that its really sad that pilots on employee contracts in Eastern Europe do not get this issue solved, so sadly in a similar way pilots who are self employed do also have this issue unsolved. And you still jump over the obvious reality: It does not give you better terms to be employed than self employed..... so why be employed and pay a lot more tax ? As for practical solutions its like I said, pilots will recover their salary when flying their hours on days when other pilots call unfit. And being employed do not solve this issue. So why are you saying its better to be employed when it does NOT SOLVE the issue ?


Regarding Ryan Air contracts, are you trying to say that a pilot on a self employed contract can not resign from renewing his contract and leave Ryan Air ? You believe that really? What I said is that in case there would ever be a captain shortage then the airline would be most of all afraid that the captains resign..... so firing them would just worsen the issue for the airline. But its all about supply and demand, there have to be a captain shortage first.

PS. Why are you deleting your previous posts to make it look like I am talking to myself ?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Your position in regard to supply and demand, the basic law of economy is the same. If the supply of pilots is lower than the demand then its not a matter of contract the airline do not want to lose you. Or do you think that an airlines CEO and his HR will fly themselves if the third party agencies suddenly lose all the captains ? Its all a question of supply and demand as every other salary in every other profession.

Just look at China as I said, the supply is low because as I said few people wish to wait 6 months in uncertain if they have passed the Chinese medical assessment, if China accept EASA medical you will see how supply will go up and salaries will go down.

As for the strike in LOT I heard a lot about it but its mostly concerning those who joined loooong ago when LOT employed people with different contract, they actually gave employees better terms than minimum required by the law. So it was those employees who were wishing to strike. The whole thing ended with LOT giving guaranteed 45 hours for pilots and by that raised the salary pilots are guaranteed to receive. And they did it for everyone both those on employee contracts from before 2012 and newer pilots all employed as self employed. Today LOT do only employ self employed pilots.

As for people who work there...... imagine 2 instructors at my flight school are captains on Bombardier Dash Q400 so I heard a little about LOT and the concern they had was few flying hours when one of Q400 was out to repairs after that landing where front gear broke down. So getting 45 minimum hours did help them. Oh and actually the referendum was between the employed before 2012 I believe. And of course everyone would like the Ryan Air self employed salary when being self employed at LOT. But I did not hear anyone say they would rather be employed and pay more tax, since the employment conditions from the long past time would not be offered, today if LOT had to employ as employees then it would only offer probably the minimum required by law (and minimum required by law does not give you any better terms than being self employed).

Other than that I believe LOT will be paying higher and higher salaries because not everyone dream of 787 and having the chance to fly different aircraft (LOT pay the type ratings also for self employed) during the pilot career. So if Ryan Air and probably also Wizz Air will continue to pay more than LOT then LOT will probably not keep every captain they got.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Regarding China of course they have a great demand and a low supply because they have requirements beyond what is required in EU or in the Emirates. One of them from what I both heard and read is a very strange medical and it takes 6 months of waiting before they are sure if they give the job or not. That is why they have to pay 300 000 and not for example 150 000 - 200 000, if they had the same kind of assessment and medical requirement as European airlines got for their captains they would have a queue probably in front of their recruiter while paying 150 000 - 200 000 instead of 300 000.

As for all the things you write about self employment in Ryan Air its probably what the scheme was (and still is in UK) before they realized it could be done simpler. From what I heard the deal they offer in Poland now is self employment in the simple way just as LOT does it in Poland. And all you write is probably correct and nice and well in UK.

BUT in Eastern Europe as employee it is as you wrote "your contract can be terminated without reason, fairly or unfairly, does not matter, you don't have the same legal rights, as somebody who is employed" IN UK. It apply to any profession not just pilots, any company offering the minimum contract for employee as the law require can do it. You do miss the point ALL the time, its not being employee in UK we talk about, we talk about Eastern Europe where you will not miss out anything while being self employed other than missing having to pay a lot of tax.

And as for Ryan Air salary for captains, the point is they pay the same salary as they pay in UK or other places to self employed. Its not like employee contract where they say you got lower living cost there and there. So actually Ryan Air captains can get up to 100 000 Euro per year with a base in Poland.

PS. I did not mention Ryan Air as golden standard of aviation, just no one else pay more with a base in Poland. Then I just said that pilots in Poland who I spoke with never said they dream of Lufthansa or KLM but some said they dream of Emirates. As for China everyone heard about it but I met no one willing to risk to fail the assessment or medical there and lose 6 months waiting for the job. Living in China that was NOT the problem (10 years working in china for 300 000 taxfree and saving 2/3 of the salary then investing it in Poland (you could buy a whole fleet for a flight school or a castle hotel to rent) would make even your grand-children live like kings).

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: And UK is also still members of the EU and they follow only those regulations that they have signed.... as you know Ireland are also members of the EU. And recently I believe Ryan Air found out they do not need to give Irish contracts to people in Eastern Europe since the local laws let them self employ people just as LOT is doing. And LOT is not employing people after 2-3 years at least I did not hear the captains working for LOT tell anything like that and they already worked that long, plus probably almost no one in Poland would really wish to pay the higher tax in exchange for Polish employment.

Oh and I believe you missed the four freedoms of EU while you keep telling me EU can govern employee contracts in any state (and it can not). It is that everyone from any country is to be treated equally (even LOT now hire foreign pilots). So you need to definitely speak German or Dutch fluently but you do not have to have the nationality to be working for Lufthansa or KLM. https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Air-Carrier-PCC-Profile/657/KLM-Royal-Dutch-Airlines actually they only need to be willing to learn Dutch for example. So you believe you know everything but it happens to not be the reality. As for Lufthansa you need to already speak fluent German but thats it (I actually speak German (and many pilots in Poland do), with some work it could be with correct grammar and fluent, but it never entered my mind to dream of flying for Lufthansa)

As for Ryan Air salaries, I talked with Ryan Air FO and he is receiving the advertised salary, I also talked with a Captain and he also receive a proper salary. So I do not know personally but I believe them more than someone on a forum telling me that Ryan Air do not pay the salary they put in the contract.

As for living in Poland.... well in Norway a SAS FO gets lower salary than a factory worker in Norway. Its definitely not cool, and the cost of living is so high that you live better having 50 % of the Norwegian salary in Poland not to mention that at Ryan Air you can get like 80 % of the Norwegian pilot netto salary at least if not more. BTW salary is not everything for me since I do also invest and I do not actually need to have a job to survive, I wish to fly because I enjoy it and its my dream. As for other things than the obvious that in Norway you need more than 2x netto salary to be able to buy the same stuff as in Poland (cars, houses, food and especially enjoyment like going out). Its also the fact that the state is extremely controlling maybe most in whole Europe and I hate the state to tell me how to live. I do not wish to have the state to tell me when I can go out, to tell me when and where I can buy something, to tell me what kind of dog I am allowed to own, to risk jail if I speed a little on autobahn etc. itd. Its certainly the perfect society for factory workers and especially for people who do not wish to work at all but feel "entitled" to everything. Its a perfect society for everyone except business owners, hard working people, professions that require a lot of learning and investment etc. They just get exploited to pay for those who do not wish to work at all + to pay for all the stuff like fancy toilets and cultural stuff like naked artists running on the scene..... And when I hear the future coalitionists of the future AP Norwegian government speak (Lysbakken (SV) and Moxnes (Rødt) + whole MDG (if they could they would forbid flying at all and make you use a horse and carriage) ) it gets my blood to almost boil, so I am definitely going to be happy that I do not live there when the real socialists come to get your money and control your life even more.

Last but not least I forgot about the Norwegian reward for everyone who work hard and do not spend all his money like those people in luksusfellen, if you actually save and invest the state will reward you with formueskatt its a tax you have to pay from your savings no matter if you for example own an aircraft (or a house) and you can really not sell a part of it to pay the tax, the state still want you to pay. One company got so pissed they tried to pay the tax in very valuable metal chains (according to the taxman assessment) but the state did not wish the unsellable chains its taxman valued so much and forced the company to almost go bankrupt to pay tax for owning those chains. Oh and I just forgot they are planning to get back to the tax on dying so called arveavgift so if you die they will tax your hard taxed money once again so your family do not get what you worked hard for.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: As for factory workers its just an example of a job that do not require "fagbrev" or any studies etc. that any one can perform. In addition there are like 33 % or even more of the population aged 18-67 who do recieve "free money" from the state and do not work. Its very strange that people tend to live longer in Norway on average than most other places but still they are so sick that no other nation got so many incapable of working. By the way its not the biggest problem not at all, the biggest one is the politicians using tax money on fancy buildings, fancy toilets, fancy swimming halls that never get finished and other stuff that equates to throwing money out the window and the most hardworking people have to pay most tax to finance it.

Did you actually read the article you pasted or just read the headline? The police in Germany did not stop them because they drove too fast on autobahn they stopped them because they were suspected to be part of a illegal car race on the streets. Either way they did not get their careers destroyed by getting jailed like they would in Norway. And if they drove alone in 250 km/h on free speed autobahn no one would stopped them it was about the race. As for the cars as you see most of them are not brand new AND you know even a guy in luksusfellen owned a Ferrari.... but its not a problem in Norway. The banks are throwing loans after you so even a person with no job can get to loan like 250 000 euro from different banks as fobrukslån. The point is the problem comes afterwards and some people like that end up in luksusfellen to the amusement of people watching the program. While most people do not do such crazy stuff, you can look up statistics about how many people own their home in Norway and the debt per person is just extreme. No one in Poland would take a loan for their inherited house up to the chimney to buy a Ferrari. Just check the statistics if the loan interest goes a little more up you will see half of the nation in Norway cry for the government to tax those who saved money..... in order to pay for their loans.... and the government will probably oblige.

As for my parents as I said my mother (my father working in IT actually got a reduced netto salary after moving to Norway from Poland) moved in 1997 and I admit it was bad times for doctors in Poland, but Norway actually made extra good salaries for doctors back then to attract foreign specialist doctors because they could not cope with the queues with their own doctors they did not care to train in a proper amount (they still do not and send most of students to Poland and other places in Europe to study). Right now doctors at private clinics in Poland earn the proper amount but my mother is clearly in an age where she do not care to set up everything from the scratch in Poland so she will work in Norway until she can get back some of her tax as pension and then move to Poland of course. As for myself I got Polish passport and have no need for the Norwegian one, but clearly the state in Norway will not let me "move" before 3 years have passed after I moved and they require my financial reports. Oh and my parents actually saved a lot even with the taxes they paid cause they instead of wildly spending saved as much as possible both in a house, shares etc. itd. did not eat at restaurants, did not travel all the time for holidays, did not buy stuff they did not need etc. itd. but instead saved and invested and kept doing it consequently for over 20 years, the reward is extra tax from the state to give tax deduction for those who bought a Ferrari while not being able to afford it (loans can get deducted from tax actually so no wonder many Norwegians buy stuff they can not afford....)

As for pilot salaries you will actually get more for your netto salary in Poland than you will get for your netto salary in Norway about 2x as much or even more if its about cars etc. But the laws trying to control your life are alone enough to move in order to be free from a state that wish to control your every step. And if captains in LOT are unhappy they can get as DEC to Ryan Air (according to my information the assessment at Ryan Air is actually easier than at LOT and captains do actually get invited on the assessment to Ryan Air especially those with 737 or 787 rating and experience) but maybe some of them are flying not to achieve the highest possible salary but because they enjoy it and thrive at LOT.

The self employment contracts are not ending in Eastern Europe instead they are getting expanded and I believe soon Wizz Air will also offer a national deal instead of the Switzerland deal after they learn like Ryan Air that they can. And Poland discarded the idea of changing anything so every profession can still be self employed. And it is not changing, I believe sooner will Norway stop their social security (if they go forward to import as many new citizens dependent on social security as Sweden does after Arbeiderpartiet start governing with SV, Rødt and MDG) than Poland will stop self employment. You will see the future already in Norway the state tell you what car you can buy, what dog you can own, how you are supposed to raise your children, they jail you for speeding, they tell you when you can go out or when you can buy alcohol (alcoholics just buy from smugglers and hamster the stuff at home, it just disturbs non alcoholics who wish to have a party) etc. itd. But after SV, Rødt and MDG start governing together with AP then the state will literally get inside peoples homes.... so I am happy that I moved and you will see even some Norwegians living in Norway for many generations will be moving if the state claims even more control of peoples life (about 15 % do not wish it that way and vote FrP or Liberalistene). You asked me why I chose to not live in Norway so this is the answer I do not wish the state to control my life and even if it was financially better to live in Norway I would not go back because I enjoy being free from a controlling state.

PS. Why do you keep deleting your previous posts?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I am not a socialist so I am not trying to make any big picture of a society, I let people live like they wish to live I do not try to make them live like I believe is best. I do also not wish to be responsible for total strangers and the decisions they make in their lifes. So I prefer a system where every individual can live his life and not a system that try to shape everyone into the system not caring that everyone is different and the average person does not exist.

As for writing about Polish workers you must think of those that came after Poland joined EU because before that only people who were specifically desired by a state could go work there. And who told you the workers from Poland do not pay any taxes especially in Norway ? Its impossible to not pay taxes in Norway, its even impossible to drive a car that is not registered in Norway. The state made the police care more about taxes than it care about murder and the laws are made in a way its impossible to not pay tax. Every worker even after the EU that come to Norway need to pay the Norwegian tax if they are registered officially. If someone work black just like some workers employed in a company co owned by the leader of socialist party.... well its then the Norwegian owners making it possible and its not the fault of Poland. But from what I know the Norwegian police is working harder to find the people working black (maybe except the reindeer owners in Finnmark they get away one even sent a letter to NAV expecting sick pay from his non taxed income.... it got sent to skatteetaten and he did not get sick pay) than its working with violent criminal acts.

As for my parents they actually enjoy life and travel often now as what they saved give them interests from different investments in serious stuff like flats and no "Nigeria and Antigua" schemes. But the point is earn first then spend, not like extremely many people do now that is take loans on everything even the stuff they inherited from their parents and just go wildly spending and buying for example a Ferrari they can not afford actually. In that case the mentality in Poland is totally different, families are more important and people actually wish to make their future generations (not the state and total strangers, but their children and grand children) have best possible life. I believe it was also the case in Norway before oil were found and many new generations spend in moments what their ancestors worked long to achieve and that is how they get Ferrari taking a loan on the house they inherited for example.

As for the mentality part check the amount of students from Norway who fail to pass first year on medicine in Poland.... and after you get a shock how many % do fail then I tell you why.... instead of learning they go on spending and having fun when they discover Polish prices and probably drink more than they did in their whole life in one year. People supposed to study being on a loan to study, drive around in taxis, eat at restaurants and drink. Then they come back to Norway with failed study, loan and ask for "free money" and tax deduction for the loan and hard working people have to pay tax to help them.... but if you are happy with that.... then I wonder why you live in UK when NAS and SAS got bases in Norway? Or maybe you too do not wish to pay that much tax and rather live in UK with lower tax and cheaper stuff from cars to food?

As for being economically independent well did I tell you that a SEP is everything I do own? I do not need to list the non aviation related stuff. And as for the SEP well it actually can earn more than average salary in Poland so its quite a good investment at least so long as there will be people who wish to become pilots like there are a lot of now, it also made my own training a lot cheaper. And the school is very good with a captain who is CFI & the main owner, plus many professional instructors both FOs and Captains who fly in the airlines and instruct part time, so I believe it got a bright future (especially when I read how bigger schools work (or actually does not work) like BAA then the future got to be bright when doing everything as it should be done) so I do what I can "to get on that ship" as much as possible.

As for moving out of Norway I am already "utvandret" long ago but Norway still need my financial reports from Poland. My bookkeeper was like "WTF?" but I told him its how Norway works and what I need to have to send to skatteetaten. I believe Norway is the only nation who wish to get financial reports of their "utvandret" for 3 years.

As for the cars, you know that manufactures and ships do pollute 80 % and cars are so tiny amount of pollution especially excluded the trucks etc. But Norway do not only plague people with special tax on the cars its all other things also that I listed up. They even tell you what kind of dog you are allowed to own or when you can buy stuff at the shop.... and they actually only hit on the law abiding citizens because those who they "wish to hit" (like alcoholic buying smuggler wares) do not obey any law so they do what they please (not like they have any career the state can take from them, their career is getting free money from the state).... so only law abiding people suffer. And now its still not that bad, but I do not wish to even imagine what will happen when SV, Rødt and MDG get to govern in Norway (AP governed before but without the real socialists). They are probably literally going to get inside peoples homes. But somehow you live in UK so you will probably also miss out on the "social security paradise" they gonna make after the next election in Norway (Oslo is already unlivable from what I read in the news about MDG and taxes on every road, no cars etc.).

PS. Why do you delete all your previous posts? Do you not wish to stand behind what you write or what?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Well as for me especially Norway will be as close as you can get to socialism (especially after SV, Rødt and MDG start governing) without becoming a communism, a so called democratic socialism (Venezuela, Cuba, Soviet etc. were/are communisms or forced socialisms). And west Germany and todays Germany or any other nation in EU can not be compared to Norway, even Sweden is much different.... imagine I read that in the past 80s or something they had like 1 TV channel in Norway and before that they discussed if color TVs should be legal.... totally not what happened in West Germany its not comparable. And if you check the different laws that forbid different things you will find out that even Sweden is a lot different for example they do not wish to decide what dog you are allowed to own or put you in jail for speeding (it can like destroy peoples careers not only in aviation)...... not to mention Denmark which is even less restrictive and controlling.

I must ask when were you in Poland ? In the 90s ? Because today Warszawa at least is like any other big city in Europe (I do not like big cities) and the health care you get at private clinics is higher standard than you get at official hospital in Norway and without waiting for anything. As for dentists you certainly have not been at any of those who advertise in Gdansk for the Scandinavian customers who fly there to get their tooth fixed. Because its like shiny brand new stuff there. So I believe it had to be very long ago you visited Poland, and its definitely not boring (boring is one of the reasons I also did really not like Norway) at least if you know Polish if not then maybe. Personally I prefer the countryside in Poland small villages and places like that, there might be some old stuff there but it makes an epic atmosphere for someone who is polish at least and the "vodka party" is much more fun than a fancy party house in a city (I do seldom go out anywhere but if I do I prefer the atmosphere of a village and a bonfire in the open). Oh and the supermarkets got plenty of everything in like 15 years so you had to be veeery long ago in Poland. I do at least enjoy Poland everyday plus I actually know a lot of people here.

As for all workers in UK who are working black I understand it annoys UK but its UK police who do not do the job. In Norway they get caught pretty quickly by the police but again the police find economic stuff the most important in Norway (and its not good if they do not have time for violence crimes). But its not because of the EU..... cause with schengen UK will still get all those people working black visiting them. And I do not have anything against brexit, I am for sovereign states in Europe and I wished EU went back to just economic stuff like it was meant to be in the beginning. And as for "free money" I believe Norway will have the biggest problem if they do what Sweden did already and import new citizens who are totally dependent on the "free money" and they will do so with a new government after next election. The biggest problems with laws in many western European countries and especially in Norway is that they hit only law abiding citizens, while those who wish "free stuff" and do not care about laws will still do whatever they wish (they do not care about jail, Norwegian one is like hotel for them and they do not pursue any career that jail might destroy).

PS. I still wonder why you keep deleting previous posts that you wrote?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: So name one (not to talk about many) whole country besides Norway where you go to jail for speeding (only speeding like in Norway, not crashing etc.) ?

As for dogs there is a whole list in Norway of what kinds the state believe are dangerous (Denmark got some on the list but not as many as Norway and no other nation in EU got such a list of not allowed dogs) and in addition to those they believe are dangerous they also made czech wolfdog illegal because it looks exactly like a wolf (and it makes me think of having one). Yes literally it stands in the "forarbeider" to the law its the only reason and they believed it could mix with real wolves, again the whole world stand amused since its not forbidden anywhere else in the world. Not to talk about other extremely strange stuff that is forbidden, actually in the past they made even skateboards forbidden but the ban did not last long. Still its the best sign of a socialist state to forbid things the government do not like or think they do not like or that may be dangerous according to the government but not necessarily according to the reality.

So a Marxist state is a communist state, while socialism is not communism its a much milder version that exist because of the capitalistic elements in the economy but it still does the best it can to control every human being as far as possible and try to make everyone into an average person (that do not exist, since people are individuals) to make it fit into a collective system the politicians believe is good. I will watch with curiosity what happens after next election in Norway when Rødt, SV and MDG get to govern with AP, happily I will watch this experiment from outside.

As for prices in Norway it does not even out in professions like pilot profession that are rewarded with good salaries all around the world, yet again the average salary benefit most "factory worker" professions.

As for how you saw Poland well maybe Wizz Air found a really bad hotel for you they exist still but it does not mean the whole place is like that. And those "soviet era apartments" maybe some look old style but non of them are state run and they are all modernized and private. I live outside of Warszawa but close enough (too close for my liking since I like countryside better) to be close to EPBC. In the future I hope they make the airport in Radom functional then I can live exactly where I wish in Poland (countryside to the south of it) if I get to this base.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Once again you believe you know the reality..... but yes Norway is the only country where you go to jail for speeding alone (no accident no nothing) AND you also can in New York but not in the rest of USA and even in New York you can legally pay yourself out of it (its an old law like in some county in Maryland where you are legally obliged to always carry a weapon). As for Germany NO you can not go to jail for speeding alone, unless you are making an illegal street race and it actually happens in dense traffic and still its not like in Norway but they have to actually prove that the illegal street race seriously endangered multiple people.

So summarizing only in Norway you can be jailed for speeding alone even if its on a totally empty autobahn, oh and its Norway alone who manage to put 100 km/h as limit on most autobahns (some got 110 km/h). As for drunk driving its punishable maybe even more severe in Poland than in Norway and the whole world is punishing drunk driving (some nations got higher limits like Germany and Belgia) and I believe its correct just as punishing drunk flying and any drunk steering of a mechanical device than can become a deadly weapon. But drunk driving has nothing to do with speeding.

As for speeding its all dependent on the car you drive, the weather, the congestion of the road AND your skill. As a pilot you got to know that its not indifferent and it goes the same way for cars. I was told by an instructor that many FOs and Captains do not have the rating anymore for SEP and do not fly at all other than flying with passengers for the airline... so I understand some people do not enjoy so much neither flying, driving or steering but for others its important with a normal law about driving.

To the point: What you are showing on a video are people who are not interested in driving, using mobile phones, driving not on autobahn and doing every possible thing to not care about the driving. They did not even enjoy the driving doing it to show off or because they were bored.... and such people crash and its they alone who should get consequences (if the survive). And that is what happens in the whole world. But Norway got a more socialist politician soul (I got no better explanation) and they go to the core of socialist lawmaking: Punishing innocent people preventive because someone else is unable to use their freedoms in a proper way. That is the core of socialism exactly the core to preventively control the whole population and make everyone suffer because some people actually fail to be free.... instead of punishing only those few people who fail. Its like "see that guy without a proper license crashed doing aerobatics, now we completely forbid it for everyone".

And driving is only the top of the iceberg as for how Norway is different even from Sweden and Denmark, all over the laws you see the urge to forbid things because some few people actually get accidents so everyone must suffer. Like with dogs first they made a list of dangerous dogs that the state believe are dangerous of course they did not include the race that bet a child to death (and that started the whole law) but a lot of other races some that even never have been in Norway. Then they decided to also forbid amstaff because it could look like some of the other forbidden races even if it itself was not dangerous.... and then they "took the cake" by forbidding as the only nation in the world czech wolfdog in addition because it looks like a wolf in the explanation..... and then there are a lot of things even chocolate looking like pipes that are or were forbidden (FrP tried to change some stuff but the socialist majority resist strongly). Its not really important about the dogs but shows the socialist mentality to the core.

And yes in some countries car is classified as a deadly weapon when used to cause deadly harm..... BUT only when causing deadly harm..... no other place on earth punish people preventively for what might have happened and not for what really happened. Its like if someone jailed all men for rape cause of possessing necessary equipment to perform a rape..... its almost that funny but Norway do it for real control peoples lives thinking that for example 100 % of people are alcoholics and treating them that way almost...... I am just amused to watch what will happen when Rødt, SV, MDG start to govern after next election in Norway. Everything gets forbidden probably and jail for everyone except real criminals.

PS. I still wonder why do you keep deleting your previous posts?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Sadly its impossible to read the rest of the article (I am not buying subscription) where the driver did something else probably than only speeding like for example running from the police that is not only speeding. And actually even in Poland they jailed "frog" for 3 months cause of creating the risk of a land catastrophe after he had a race against the police all around Warszawa while actually proven endangering a lot of people plus he got away and it really pissed the police so they actually used an another paragraph than for speeding because it was 10 other things than speeding alone. But this is not simple speeding on a non congested autobahn or simple stuff like you get jailed for in Norway.

As for SEP well people who enjoy flying do fly SEP for fun or as instructors or even in aerobatics (a proper SEP ofc. ). And dangerous.... well I believe its much more dangerous if you get your elevator stuck than the engine failure in a SEP. I know an instructor who can land on the roof of a hiper market (with light SEP) if needed after engine failure. But it does take skill that is why I am trying to learn as much as possible so the day it happen I am able to cope with it even if there is not a nice grassy field in vicinity and the emergency procedures are not enough for a safe landing. Its up to you how dangerous engine failure is. There are some pilots who will get alive out of it no matter what you fail in their SEP unless the whole aircraft fall apart in mid air. You only live once, life is not about being bored for 100 years and then putting a relatively healthy corpse inside the grave, life is about having fun. And the having fun part is what makes every socialist shake with anger and shout: forbid it!

As for SOP: It is no problem to follow it to the letter. It is there for the safety of 100s of passengers you are carrying and not for you to have fun. Its your job and still its enjoyable more than probably any other job in the world but it is a job where you are at work being responsible for peoples safety and not having fun. A bus driver on autobahn can not do the stuff he can do driving alone in his car its a big difference.

What I talk about is your free time it is what a state like Norway struggle to control, and free time means free. So there you should have certain degree of freedom to enjoy your life and not be forbidden everything because someone else failed to exercise his freedom. You should only be punished for what you do and not for what could happen IF. And that is where Norway is most restrictive in Europe or maybe even in the world its forbidding stuff "over low shoe" no matter if its really dangerous or just their imagination (like with the dogs). And that is one of the reasons I do not thrive in a restrictive nation that wish to control your life in your free time as much as possible.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Well there are other things you can drive, steer a boat not only fly. But flying is certainly the most complicated thing where you can always learn and become better even if you got 10 000 hours. And its really enjoyable plus you do not need to be speeding to be more than enough challenged with the task. Oh and there is also other fun stuff in life everything that a socialist does not like almost.... like having a party when you got free time and when you want to and not when the state thinks you should.... or owning an interesting kind of a dog or literally anything that is not straightforward and boring and that the state do not approve of at least in Norway.

As for driving well in Germany its exactly as you wrote on autobahn you decide how fast you can go and you are only responsible if you fail. If you do not fail its completely legal, in other states you can get a fine but no one go as far as Norway to actually jail people for speeding no matter where or how they do it. As for my driving license I had it for 12 years and I am 30 (happily I managed to change my profession and start doing what really interest me before it was too late) oh and its not about how long you got it, my uncle drives a taxi in Poland and he drive so much that he was probably 3x the driver I am when he was 30 and even as he is almost 60 he still love to speed the car some times in his free time just for the pure fun.

As for countries with no rules, no such exist probably and in the US they still do not wish to crush your career if they catch you speeding you get a fine or they can take your driver license but they will certainly not remove your security clearances because you were speeding in a car. In a perfect capitalism there would still be rules but the rules would be that everything is legal so long as you do not harm any other person or their property. So as for driving it would equate to that do what you want but if you cause an accident you will get the consequences as if you did it on purpose. But everyone else who manage to do not cause accidents will not be restricted in their free time by failure of an individual.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Its a big difference between spending all day and spending some time and I hope I will still enjoy flying in the future just as I still enjoy driving and steering a boat (sadly for boats you can not go beyond D5LA without actually working on a ship commercially).

I am just telling you why I did not like living in Norway and why some other people might also not like it, its not even Sweden or Denmark where people have a lot of more freedom. As for my licenses I started in January 2018 so I am not done yet currently since march I am passing my atpl exams got 8 done and 6 to go so I hope I can be done until June. Then I will do MEP(L), IR/ME, CPL and FI and hopefully be done this year. After that I will look for a spot in the airlines and of course fly as FI. As for parties in Norway you probably did never invite a big party at your house in Norway or you would have issues requiring, carpenter, plumber and perhaps other specialists :} but its to each his taste. I prefer parties in the Polish countryside with a fireplace and people I know at least 50 % of rather than a pub or a big party house.

As for autobahn it still is the law in Germany in places where there is free speed that you are not preventively punished if you do not have any accident. And its enough of such autobahn in Germany (almost whole road from Danish border to Polish border with exception for around Berlin and same goes for the road to Belgium and Netherlands). As for other people you have always to consider their safety in your life its not only on the road. But you are not preventively punished for stuff that may happen if it does not happen. And that is the point. Or else someone could say you cannot own a kitchen knife because someone else used it to kill someone.... oh wait thats the law about guns almost in Europe (only USA understands it) that because someone else fail to exercise his freedom you are not allowed to own a gun. And the bad guys still get to own guns since they strangely do not care about the law.... in US for example someone like Breivik would never ever kill that many people cause someone with a gun would have stopped him. And almost all the massacres in USA happen in "gun free zones" where the bad guy is the only one with a gun. Still European laws are livable compared to the Norwegian ones and I just can imagine what will be forbidden and how the law will change in Norway after Rødt, SV and MDG (MDG would forbid flying at all if they could seize power alone but happily for Norwegians AP will probably cool them down) get to govern there after the next election.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Well I will tell you when I get an airline job how much I wish to fly in my free time. It probably also depends on the job if you get to fly 900 hours or not, or if its a part of the year where you do not fly at all in the airline etc. As for flying in Norway I understand why you are skeptical about single engine. I would too before I become much better at flying be skeptical to fly in Norway in the areas where there are just rocks and mountains and almost nowhere to make an emergency landing (maybe the fjord but with non retractable gear its kind of good luck to not crash badly with forced landing on water). In Poland the environment give you bigger chances of performing a safe emergency landing on a grassy field.

As for the US gun law I will always defend freedom to do as you wish without harming anyone or anyones property. Always no matter that some people abuse it. Its like saying because some men are rapists everyone should get castrated...... its that kind of thing to make everyone suffer for the actions of the few. And the criminals will still not give a damn about the law they will do what they please until they are caught only law abiding citizens will be restricted. And yes the guns were legal in massacres in USA (although not all) BUT the massacres happened in gun free zones like schools where no one had a gun only the bad guy. Because people who abide the law do not bring guns in gun free zones. SO if the guns were illegal the bad guys would just like Breivik get them either way just as a gun free zone does not stop them from entering with a gun.

As for my experience well I like going to shooting ranges in Poland renting a gun and having fun shooting with everything from makarov to rifles. Its fun but not so much that I do it often. Looks like most of the stuff I think is fun is something the socialists wish to forbid :}

[KT1988]

@2unlitmited: I believe the gun crimes are more because of "culture" than the law, imagine there are no gun laws like in the US in Mexico or South Africa and they shoot more people than in the US if you compare per capita. And as for Europe in the future I believe there may be more gun crimes without guns being legal as in US.... imagine in Sweden from all places a kid was killed by a hand grenade (a grenade like in a war) that was tossed as part of some gang war.... something someone could believe could happen in Russia actually happened in Sweden.... so I believe the bad guys will not care about the gun or grenade is legal or not. The point is Europe got less criminals than the US (but the western Europe is working hard to change it) and thats where the big difference come from.

There is always defense of people being free to do as they wish so long they do not harm others or their property. As I said banning something because some few people do not manage to behave and break the law..... its like castrating us all because some men rape.... totally wrong to punish everyone for the actions of some few criminal people.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Its impossible that there will be no guns because they are simple to produce so if there were no guns the criminals would "rule" with their home produced guns..... as for criminals I do not know what they prefer but in Sweden it looks like they totally do not care about the police for example.

An for the next 10 things or 100 things I could say, yes of course we should legalize even the things we do not like personally. Freedom is not about making everything we personally like legal and then forbid everything we personally do not like, just like freedom of speech is not freedom to say the things we believe and forbid those that make "our blood boil". I can be the strictest opponent to communists or national socialists but I do still believe they should have freedom of speech to say whatever they wish.... so long as they do not harm other people and their property. So since we already legalized alcohol and tobacco, I believe it would make the whole thing a lot tidier and under control to legalize all similar stuff. Of course it should be like with alcohol forbidden to be under influence while driving, steering or flying but why give the money to mafia and a black market that sell the stuff to children. At a shop at least they have to be 18 to buy it and people will know who is buying. And even if it does not bother me personally I see the point that people being jailed for growing a natural plant at home is just weird no matter if it does not matter for me personally.

You know.... first they take the freedom from someone far away, next day they come for your neighbor.... and tomorrow they can come for you and your freedoms. So we should not tolerate so well stuff that we do not care about being illegal, because tomorrow the state can make stuff we like personally, illegal just like flying if for example MDG were free to govern alone without AP. Happily even for Norway AP will probably stop the most crazy stuff Rødt, SV and MDG wish to plague people with after the next election.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Its rather funny that what you experienced in South America and Mexico is the effect of lack of freedom. Its that what creates all the cartels, drug trade, mafia all this is created by the state.... where is the alcohol mafia and alcohol trade of the 20s in US? You know the state discovered that by making alcohol legal again they got rid of all the stuff you are talking about..... Now I am the last person to care about drugs..... but still I care about other peoples freedom like I hope they care about mine the day when the likes of MDG try to ban flying for example.

As for children living in a society where drugs are legally accessible.... you know they do live in such a society with alcohol and tobacco fully legal. And actually your children can get drugs from a dealer at their school.... a dealer who would never be there and never exist if they were sold at a shop for people over 18 years old. Plus if your children bought it you would know it and could react, as opposed to them buying it from the dealer. Have you seen an alcohol dealer at schools or other places where children go ? No ? Maybe because the state found out this was a very bad idea to give away the trade to mafia and dealers.....

OMG this is the funniest argument from the left side that you actually used: "Unfortunately the masses are not that smart, and they can't be left to make to big decisions for their own lives" its the spot on point. So you believe the masses are too little smart to govern their own life, BUT you believe they are smart enough to vote for politicians and govern the life of individuals and decide about their life? And as for feeling entitled its the socialists and politicians who feel entitled to my life and other peoples life, they actually feel entitled to ruling the world... and believe individual people owe them their life. Clearly if I ever have children I will wish they can live in a free world with freedom of speech and freedom of living as they see fit not as the politicians elected by the "not that smart masses" see fit.

How can it be wrong if people are free to do with their life whatever they want to so long as they do not harm others or their property?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: So how is that compared to alcohol that is legal and available ? It was much worse in the US in 20s with all the cartels, dealers and alcohol mafia and people who wanted to drink still drank whatever they could get just used even more money that went straight to the mafia. You miss the point, the suffering in South America is what is happening BECAUSE of the laws that equal to the US law in the 20s about alcohol. The alcohol drinkers did not disappear in the US because it was illegal to drink.... so the drug users will not disappear when its illegal to use them. And the suffering will go on forever with all the mafia and cartels who actually say the same thing that you do because legalizing would destroy the mafia like it did with alcohol mafia in US.

So imagine that alcohol is legal everywhere but neither my mother or anyone I know keep putting in themselves a dose of alcohol that make them black out or lie on the ground and barf. SO why do you believe that if drugs were legal those people would start doing them. Would you seriously put a dose heroine in your body just because it was legal? I would not do it even if I got paid a lot of money to do it..... seriously people got their minds. And those who wish to use drugs will do so even if it is illegal and they will fuel the mafia and all the suffering you saw to an infinity.

Oh and as for the children if you raise your children in a way that they would use drugs if they were legal..... well then you will have no clue if they do not use them illegally. Its actually about knowing what is dangerous and what is not dangerous. Just like with alcohol you should know how much you can drink and that a vodka bottle is not the same as a beer bottle. And people should also know that if they do drugs even if they are legal they will never get many jobs because companies will not accept drug users at least those who use the most hardcore drugs like heroine or use other drugs all the time (just as no one will employ an alcoholic to do a job that require responsibility..... oh maybe except electing one for president (like Jelcyn in Russia) but that is just the beauty of mob rule through politicians instead of a constitution and rule by law.

As for liberties the limits are pretty clear: You can do whatever you wish as long as you do not harm other people or their property. It means you are free to live your life as you wish but you cannot force anyone else to live like you wish if they are not willing. And it will be a perfect lawful society with police, courts and jails. Just people will be jailed for doing someone or someones property harm as simple as that, and not for doing stuff that do not harm anyone or preventively. It would be an absolute rule of law having a constitution with certain rights that no politician could just mix with like he see fit.....

Like 40 years ago people were outraged about things that today are completely legal even in Norway (where people were outraged about color TV when it came actually) so in the future I believe there will be more freedom except for places where green socialists, pure socialists, national socialists or communists grab the power. Because I believe you will not deny that for example Rødt and SV are socialists or that MDG are green socialists or that for example Golden Dawn in Greece are national socialists ?

I will hope instead that we can reduce what politicians can decide and govern to the absolute necessary minimum.

PS. Why do you delete your previous posts? It makes it impossible for anyone reading to understand the discussion.....

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: You are writing about consequences of abuse of alcohol, drugs (some are more, a lot are less addictive but its not the point).... you name it. So the point is that all of this is happening even as the stuff is illegal just its totally out of control and gives money only to mafia and cartels while making all the stuff that happen in South America possible. Just like the stuff that happened in US in the 20s and still all the alcohol problems maybe went even worse because the addicts became criminals. And a criminal who is already a criminal might feel its no problem to commit more crime since he already is a criminal so... nothing to lose for the criminal.

Of course the cartels will not give away their billions in profits so they will pay money to fire up politicians to say what you are saying and try to avoid discussing the reality that it does not work to make stuff illegal because the people who want to do it will still do it. But if a state decide to legalize everything then cartels are done just like alcohol mafia in the US there is nothing they can do they are finished. As for destroyed lives I have of course seen them in Poland but actually alcoholics I have seen got more destroyed lives than some "drug" smokers I have met but it is not the point.

The point is: You are mixing up stuff people do that is criminal with the use of different substances. The point is that because some people become criminals why shall extreme amounts of non criminals suffer in South America, cartels blossom and other people get their freedom infringed (not that I care about that freedom, but who will say freedom is being infringed when the likes of MDG forbid flying for example? If we allow everything we do not like to be forbidden). Its much better to put those criminals in jail who do all the other stuff you wrote about and in jail they can not drink or use/smoke drugs so they will get sober. But because some people can not cope with being free why should everyone have their freedoms taken away. Its like they did in US and made alcohol illegal because some people could not drink.... certainly it did not work. As I said in an extreme case it would be like if we all were to be castrated because some men are rapists.... certainly if everyone got castrated there would be no rapists but its like punishing all the people for the deeds of some few. And in case of drugs or alcohol its fueling mafias and cartels and criminals.

Oh and for the new drugs.... who would design them? If everything was legal why would criminals design anything if they would not earn money from it. See case solved no more new drugs since there would be no point in creating them (trying to avoid the law).

You misunderstand the concept of freedom, the freedom means you are not to be punished for actions of other people. Its just as simple that if your neighbor have a dog and teach it to be aggressive then why should your dog be shot because its of the same race as the neighbors dog? Not much better to put neighbor in jail for what he commanded his dog to do than punish everyone else. The same goes for guns, why shall everyone get his rights infringed because some few peoples actions. And the worst criminals will have guns either way like Breivik did in Norway or like those who shot at people in France etc.

And as you see all the stuff you write about is happening right now so the regulations help only the mafia. And I do not know why you believe that suddenly people who are intelligent today would go completely crazy and start doing drugs because they were legalized. Its all about educating people and if things are legal then children will not be able to buy it like from a dealer who do not care how old the buyer is. And those who wish to do drugs will do them either way but like it is now the regulations are only helping the criminals and making a hell in South America.

You will see in the future I already see politicians all over the world who do not get paid by lobbyists from cartels realize that the war on drugs can not be won just like the war on alcohol.... so legalizing will be the lesser evil and destroy all the cartels. More and more politicians understand that its only the mafia who benefit and maybe there would be even less drug abusers if it was legalized..... because children below 18 years old would not be able to start doing drugs (plus a LOT harder punishment for people who buy alcohol or other things to minors, the punishment today is laughable).

As for flying I will have to see how it is myself with those 900 hours before I can tell you for sure. But as I have seen for example Ryan Air roster with 5 on, 4 off + holidays I do believe it gives more days off per year than a normal job.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: As for Escobar you know he was kind of wannabe politician and had support of people (helping him hide from the government) who were tricked by him to believe he wanted something good for them so he told them a lot of bull.... like all politicians do, but in reality he would be out of business if politicians legalized worldwide. Because no drug abuser would buy from a cartel for an extreme price if the stuff was legal at the shop.

As for jails its enough with value added tax to finance jails like in Poland and it will not be more people than today..... since today you also have to put drug addicts there in addition to criminal drug addicts so actually there would be less people in jail.

I do not have any dog currently, but its totally not knowing anything about dogs to say a whole race is bred for aggression.... its how the owner teach his dog. And as for what happens when a dog kills an innocent child? Obviously in Norway they ban a lot of other dogs and let the kind that killed the child (husky) be still legal. It makes perfect sense they call it in Norway "take baker instead of the blacksmith"..... IF I will have a dog it will not be one of those "aggressive" as you call them, I like wolfdogs one of the reasons is they look like a wolf, the exact reason Norway as only nation in the world banned them.... not for being aggressive just for the looks (they also banned amstaff because it looks similar to one of the dangerous ones). The point is its amazing to ban dog breeds that did not participate in the accident (there were like extremely few of every banned species in Norway and they were not involved in any biting) that killed a child and started dog breed banning, while not caring to ban the one that actually did.

Regarding smoke there should be some research about how far from others smokers got to be in public space and it should be a law that they have to be so far from non smokers outside to not harm them. As for restaurants or businesses its simple the owner makes the rules and put them outside the building. You do not like the rules you do not use this business (I believe almost all would be non smoker with some few wishing to get only smoker customers). As for parents you know its their children, children are NOT owned by the government but certainly they should be protected from smoke but definitely not in the way Norway does where the state grabs children from parents sometimes for no reason. And the state do not even give them to family but to total strangers its like if the state believed it owned the children, recently there were a child with parents who both were not yet 18 and the grandparents of the child wished to be responsible for it.... but the state just took it and gave away to total strangers for no reason and there will be a case in court. Of course there should be an institution that takes care of children if they are endangered by their parents..... but taking children because the state believes that maybe in the future something can happen or maybe not but they take them just in case.... well there are Norwegian refugees in Poland with their children actually.

What actually "takes the cake" is the Norwegian state taking children who are not Norwegian and giving them away to total strangers while their home nation wish them back and they are nationals of that nation. If the Norwegian state wish children so much why do they not take their own ones but burden Syria and kurds with their children..... or do the state only wish well educated and up brought children from Eastern European parents? I am not surprised whole Eastern Europe even the politicians compare it to the national socialist practice that the state only wish "good children" but they do not want to take their own because there can be problems...... so they leave Syria and the kurds with the task of paying for it. So I would be very careful about allowing the state anywhere nearer the children at home because they can use smoking as a reason to just grab the children even if they are not exposed to smoke.

As for children under 18 getting alcohol.... of course it happens because there is no punishment or a laughable fine for someone over 18 buying alcohol for children. In my opinion buying any alcohol or drugs for children should be punished just as dealing drugs to them is being punished with severe jail sentences. And still there are no alcohol dealers at schools, so there would also be no drug dealers with the proper penal system all the time when the things were legalized for adults. No mafia would care to have child customers with little money knowing that when they become 18 they will no longer buy from them..... there would be no mafia at all because it would not be profitable to produce illegal drugs at all if the drug abusers could buy them at a shop.

[Deejaypee]

HTF did KT1988 get on a continuous loop?

[KT1988]

@Deejaypee: My answers are here to what 2unlimited write but he keeps deleting his posts (or maybe there is some bug with the forum) so my answers remain while his posts are gone.

[Deejaypee]

Ah, I understand👍.
I wouldn’t bother with him/her if they won’t leave there posts for all to see!

[booze]

Hey KT1988 and 2unlimited, how about opening a separate, locked thread with access only for the two of you and let the admin delete all the crap both of you are keep on jabbing about, huh?

[KT1988]

@booze: This thread is a separate thread and have been made so people could "jab" about both aviation related and off topic stuff somehow related to aviation like for example laws in different nations where pilots can live. Definitely the thread is not as good as it could be if 2unlimited skipped deleting his comments. But why do read all the stuff in this thread made especially for that kind of discussion if you are not interested, its kind off pointless is it not?

@2unlimited: The point is the drug cartels will all be out of business in the free market with all stuff legal.... because then they will have to function like normal companies and that would make them not get rich quickly without having to work. Because legal companies would produce the stuff just like they produce cigarettes or alcohol and drug cartels would be out of the picture since criminals want to get money quick and with little working effort.

As for all the other stuff you write about once again I tell you all of this is happening as we speak...... so why do you think legalizing everything would make people totally go mad and start doing drugs just because its legal? Do you drink alcohol all the time because its legal? Did more people become alcoholics after US abandoned the alcohol ban from the 1920s? So why not let the stuff be controlled like everything else instead of letting the mafia run it and putting even more people in jail than required ?

As for smokers and alcohol users I think its ok to make them have a mandatory extra insurance instead of a tax on the products. The insurance would pay for private health care dedicated to alcohol and tobacco related problems so the rest of the hospitals could skip the problem. As for unlawful stuff people who drink do.... well it should be treated as any other unlawful stuff done by sober people. No difference there.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: You did not understand me, the mandatory insurance would be baked in the price of tobacco, alcohol or legalized drugs (instead of going straight to cartel pockets). Like the tax on alcohol and tobacco today just it would go straight to health care for people abusing the stuff and not other things through and insurance system. So everyone using the stuff would be insured and the cartels would not produce cheaper stuff because they would lose all their profit and risk the same jail and prosecution.

So its not ethically and morally wrong to let cartels produce the stuff get the profit and destroy a lot of peoples lives all around the world why doing so..... what an interesting view the cartels surely agree all the way. As for adverts why not put some mandatory like on the tobacco about what bad the drug will do and what jobs people will miss if they use them?

Oh and no of course the cartels will not sit by and watch they keep pumping politicians with money to tell its morally and ethically wrong to take the profit away from the cartels and use it instead to fight the drug abuse and health care for the abusers.... its what they are doing and its working looking on what you are writing but happily many people and politicians are starting to see through it. And when its finally legalized what will they do...... well the same as alcohol cartels in US after legalization they will fall apart and they will be done. It was the mafia who were the hardest opponents of lifting alcohol ban in the US......

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: They are actually in Switzerland and even in Norway they wanted to support addicts with hard drugs for free to stop the cartels and almost did it (its of course absolutely morally, ethically and financially wrong to give drugs for free, but legalizing that is not wrong).... and if they legalize some drugs (in the US they already started and Canada followed and soon many more nations) then soon enough they will legalize the rest, the cartels will of course resist. And how could the cartels be happy to have it legal seriously? They would loose all the profit they could not sell anything they produce because it would have to meet standards like tobacco and alcohol and they would have to fix the baked in tax, they would have to have employees..... the cartels would be done. Criminals do not wish to be companies. Just check the places that legalized so called mild drugs.... there are serious companies producing the stuff like in Colorado while the cartels lost their market and they are very angrily trying to push the illegal drugs to make up for the profit they lost forever.

And if some nations let the cartels still produce the drugs then drugs from there would be import banned.... and it would not profit the cartels to import illegal drugs if addicts could buy legal drugs for the same price. And to sell them cheaper would make the smuggling unprofitable and either way the cartels would be totally done. Just like alcohol cartels were totally done when US lifted the ban.

Did alcohol mafias become distilleries and cartel producers of alcohol after US lifted the ban? No? Then why on earth do you believe the cartels would start being lawful companies producing drugs, they would loose every production line since everything they did would not meet the professional standards. As for people still committing crimes well then nothing will change other than those who do not commit crimes will get professional help paid by their baked in tax in the price of the drug instead for the money going into cartels pockets and crime bosses.

I want a world of free people having equal chances (not equal results like the socialists wish).... the corporatism that currently is present most places around the world is what creates monopolies and oligarchs. Free market capitalism is about competition and a free market is not one where government cooperate with corporations to destroy the competition or help the corporations survive crisis with tax money taken from the small and middle companies.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Of course freedom vs government control is a capitalism vs socialism issue. Socialism no matter what ideology color (red, green, brown) struggle to control your life according to how the government feel about it, it does not even have to be rooted in reality (like banning rare dogs in Norway that the government thought might be dangerous after a totally different dog killed a child and its race was not banned, not just that 2 dog races were not considered dangerous but they got banned because of their looks.... yes how something looks is enough for the government to decide (socialists are so close to each other no matter the color of their socialism) ).

In a capitalism there is nothing like a crime without a victim. If no person, no persons property, and not the states property is harmed then there is no crime, because how can there be a crime if nothing is harmed and no one suffer any loss ? Its one of the basic fundamentals of the capitalist ideology that makes people free. Really free not just free to do what pleases the government. And of course every government taking away your freedoms will say some nice words about security, the point is that in a fair world only those breaking the laws and harming someone or something go to jail for a real sentence. Because anything else is as I said: Castrating us all because some men are rapists. Its the simplest logical explanation of how a government can take away the freedom of 400 million people because some 1000s do not manage to behave (why are there gun crimes in Mexico and South Africa per capita than in the US when guns are illegal? ). Actually the 2nd amendment in US constitution was made so no politician could take away the freedom from the people, US was created by its founding fathers with the goal to be free unlike Europe.

Regarding flying: Why not let everyone do as they please instead of forcing everyone on one kind of deal and one kind amount of flying. Someone got family and a lot of other stuff to do in life then let them do it, while others want to fly so also let them fly but do not whine afterwards that those who keep flying get better financial results.

As for situation in Ryan Air in Poland what you write is that cabin crew is unhappy that I can understand because they earn to little to benefit from the tax system of self employed. But I have still not seen Polish national pilots protest Ryan Air deal. No one want to lose their salary to tax in exchange for nothing from the state. As for labor directorate they can do what they want until the government change the law for ALL professions nothing will change. And the government will not change the law since it already discarded any change. The only whining people I have seen are those not living in Poland but for example UK.... probably hard to live with it that a Ryan Air captain in Poland will get more netto salary after tax than one working for Ryan Air with for example German tax and base.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Yes its clearly "One Poland-based pilot" not a word if it was Polish national wishing to stay forever or if it was someone there for a brief moment and unhappy while getting his airline experience. I have not met pilots in Poland who wished to have less netto salary in exchange for Polish employee contract..... As for Poland everyone from doctors working for single clinic to plumbers working for single plumbing company can be self employed so why should pilots be discriminated? The contract is about netto salary as for me, not about all the other stuff that is so important for you. So different people different view on what is the most important term (apart from the fact flying is the best possible job in the world).

As for freedom as I said its freedom from the state to do as you wish with what you own, if you have a private property and own the air above it lets say 100 meters you can fly your drone there freely and without any security check. If you go to an airport then you say yes to terms and conditions of the operator. And the operator require a security check simple as that. No one is forcing you to buy the ticket and fly with those terms and conditions. Its not the state that give away tickets for your tax money so you can feel discriminated about the security check.

Do you not understand the difference between state and private? Private companies can make their own rules for you if you wish to use their product its your freedom if you want it or if you do not.........

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: It is because the aircraft are flying international, for example if you fly from EPBC to for example a grass runway in Poland with a Cessna there is no security check. And of course states can have rules for public airspace that companies need to accept in order to fly in that airspace. Either way I do not believe any company would like the risk of not having a security check at all.

I said a plumber can work for a plumber company one company not owned by the plumber. And a doctor can work for a single clinic and still be self employed. And at least in LOT you can work for LOT and the next day be instructor for a flight school. Maybe Ryan Air does not allow it in their self employed contract I do not know. But LOT certainly does.

And no the are ones like you who try to destroy proper terms and conditions for the pilots in Eastern Europe. Because proper terms for most are highest possible netto salary. You do not understand if the company increase my salary as an employee it means I will pay even more tax, if they do it as self employed I will get much more of the increase netto to my pocket. The company is not my opponent, I wish to cooperate with the company for mutual benefit. My opponent is the government restricting freedom and imposing mandatory taxes and I do not wish to give those politicians 1 cent more than they need to get by law. As for Emirates for me they are perfect all the way except living in Dubai and if you ask Polish pilots most will tell you the same. It would be golden to have Polish "Emirates" with base in Poland.

I do not want to be "freeloader" I want to have a deal with the company that employ me and pay me for my service. I have no deal with any union or whoever you are member of, and when you tell me that people like me are unwanted in aviation. I say that happily its not up to you but up to the companies hiring. Maybe they believe the opposite way around about who is unwanted for them.

As for the offer.... in one sentence you say 900 hours are too much, then you say why do they only offer 30 hours per month..... Its a secure pay like in LOT which means you can do 0 hours and still get paid for 30 hours it does not mean you will not get more hours to fly that you will be paid for. As for schedule its quite natural they modify it there will always be delays and changes in aviation I have not seen an airport where everything were on schedule. As for being absent or late....... imagine an aircraft full of passengers waiting for the pilot....some hours cause he is late.... should they just do tell the passengers "Ladies and gentlemen, our pilot was late today so we hope its no problem for you that you will be 3 hours delayed, just think how nice our T&C are so the pilot do not have to care whatsoever that you will be delayed".

I can see it from the other side also as a business owner, and not being able to do anything if an employee is late or absent for no valid reason that must be the absolute nightmare of every employer not to mention an airline that can lose a lot if a plane does not fly that day.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: No there are security checks on domestic flights from international airports and there are also security checks if you fly a Cessna domestic to an international airport like for example EPGD or EPMO. But if you fly a Cessna or even something bigger even with passengers from EPBC to some other non controlled airport in Poland the only security will be what you or your AOC holder decide upon. As for companies operating from international airports they get the rules from CAA/EASA but do you really think companies would not care to perform security checks? Their insurance company would for sure make it mandatory for the insurance.

As for flying Cessna domestically in public airspace (its the state airspace) who else would make the rules if its not private airspace?

My dream model is a company owned by pilots who fly in the company but when no such company exist due to government regulations making it almost impossible then we have the companies we have. And no company is a dictatorship..... and comparing it to Stalin is like showing no respect to millions of victims. You know Stalin was mandatory.... working for a company is up to your choice you take it or leave it. So the victims of communism/socialism/national socialism had no option like "I resign" THAT is the big difference the government and politicians are mandatory. The company is your free choice. And if you become captain with experience.... well in the current market if being fired or having to resign is what you fear most.... then it does not say much good. Because as experienced captain a pilot will be like called almost everywhere where they hire DEC and a skilled pilot will pass at least one of the assessments.

Humans are not machines but seriously not showing up for no reason or being 3 hours delayed may cost more than the company pay you in salary. So without a proper medical reason the company should really not have to say to the passengers "We are sorry but the pilot is late, we hope you do not mind being delayed for some hours, we hope you support our superb T&C for the pilots. Meanwhile please stop asking are we gonna fly soon please".

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I am replying to your question if the security rules are that you can not have a juice with you then you can not if its explained to you when you buy the ticket. That is how I see it. You know its not MANDATORY to fly so its your choice to accept the terms and fly or do not accept and take your car with whatever you want in the trunk and as much as you can fit inside.

As for the link you pasted its once again a steward that is cabin crew who are complaining about pension.... still no Polish pilots complaining. And I started to laugh when I read about paying 5000 PLN to ZUS to get a pension anyone who does it should get economic darwin award prize. The Polish state have already taken peoples pensions TWICE since the fall of communism. So anyone paying maximum ZUS and trusting the state will deliver pension..... they will do better to give it poor people than to politicians if they want to help someone by paying more tax than they have to.

Oh and 2340 Euro for a FO is rather nice compared to 1750 Euro you get unless you fly more than 70 hours per month at for example Nordica (if the info about salaries is true). But the point is you said we get to fly 900 hours and now you say its only 30 hours (while in reality its more per month its just the minimum) so decide what is true. Oh and if you fail to live in Poland on 2340 Euro then you are probably driving taxi all the time and eating at restaurants only plus renting a 200 m2 flat. For Polish people its unimaginable how someone can say its barely survivable.

See here: https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Ryanair_Sun it says 164,5 Euro per hour for Captains it means 900 x 164,5 Euro = 148 050 Euro IN POLAND with minimum tax. No wonder no Polish pilot will say its bad and 400 euro extra for working on your off day. It sounds like better than Emirates if the webpage is true.

Oh and if a pilot have to sit delayed all the time a polish one will take 148 050 Euro any day with 19 % deductable tax instead of a fixed much lower salary with 32 % tax. Even when not getting paid for days when fatigue its probably possible to fly some other day if the demand is so high and get the 900 hours and netto salary that cannot match anything you get from SAS or NAS in Norway EVER. Not to mention the cost of living.

A cooperative model in business is VOLUNTARY just mark the word it makes the whole difference between capitalism&freedom vs socialism where things are MANDATORY because the government said so, and no negotiations no "I resign" in socialism what government does is mandatory and you can not resign from the terms your government makes. Do you understand the difference between being forced and doing something because you choose to?

So instead of writing how no one should get to be self employed because you do not like to live in Eastern Europe..... maybe check a nice home in nice countryside and see if you can like it so you too can get 148 050 Euro yearly if you are Captain or when you become Captain instead of writing that no one should be able to be paid a salary with such a low tax because you probably do not get such a salary.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: That is why I moved from Norway (happily its still legal without paying for moving out of Norway) because I did not like the terms and conditions of the country. The only difference is when you make a deal with a company you can pay a fine for breaking it even an extreme fine but the company can not put you in jail, while Norway is the sole country in the world that can put you in jail for speeding. For pilots it means end of career, that is why every pilot should know about it if they ever wish to visit Norway even as a tourist.

As for really believe, well if you do 900 hours then you get paid 148 050 Euro plus bonus for out of base or working on day off. I know 2 Ryan Air FOs very happy with the salary and I spoke with a Captain who said something about wages like that per hour but I did not ask if he get to fly 900 hours. Well if you do 800 hours you do still get 131 600 Euro per year..... 700 hours (is it close enough to the amount you like to fly per year?) is 115 150 Euro per year.... I can then accept unpaid waiting or unpaid fatigue leave if I manage to be proficient and good enough to one beautiful day become Captain (and I would be just as happy with lower salary in 787 for LOT). And paying 19 % tax with deductible car + deductible investments in other business (like aircraft for rent) etc. or non deductible fixed 9,5 % income tax.... instead of 32 %.

Its terms and conditions, I have not heard a Polish pilot say they pay bad at Ryan Air so check again maybe you find something nicer in Poland than an old flat in Warszawa, maybe a house in the country side. Then you will not write that no one deserve to pay low tax as self employed if you will benefit yourself.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: If you read what I do write.... then you notice I said Emirates would be perfect if you could skip the living in Dubai thing (some pilots in Poland do not care an would like Emirates either way since you get wide-body, but as for me I would rather dream of 787 in LOT with base in Poland to fly wide-body even, with less salary). And the only reason it is not perfect is exactly Dubai. So I will not go there, I wish a base in Poland that is my home country.

As for Ryan Air I do not know how it is there but I can hardly imagine they do not pay the contract they sign. And the people who work for them that I met and know get paid their hours as it is in their contract, never heard anyone did not get paid for his block hours. And yes I heard a lot that you have to be good and follow exactly the SOP and landing when unstable on the approach can get you fired.... but its your and passengers security. You are not flying to have fun (having fun is like bi product of the job) you fly to make it as safe as possible. So being strict on SOP and safety means they are a serious company that value proficient pilots. At least in my eyes.

Well until now you were more "Bedreviter" about things than me I believe. I gave you even a link so you can see the salaries yourself. I do not claim to know anything about how it is in the airline the joy of commercial flying is still before me, but I tell you what I can read about the salaries and what I heard from people actually working there which is they pay what they sign and require the pilots to be proficient and maintain and improve their proficiency.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Well in Poland a dash cam would be no proof of anyones speed. And by the way I do totally agree that zones where there are schools and children playing around like 30 km/h streets are not the proper place to drive fast. The proper place is autobahn like that where Germans do have no speed limit. Either way 1000 euro fine is ok, he knew the terms and conditions of the road, but putting someone in jail like Norway does for speeding that is overkill. But as I said its enough that any pilot know about those terms and conditions in case he ever wish to visit Norway even as a tourist. Because most people in other nations have no idea its possible to get in jail for speeding, so its important for people in professions like pilot. Actually it should be written at the national border that speeding is punishable with jail, because 99 % people who visit Norway have no idea.

As for Ryan Air I do not know how you wish to be treated but probably the long past time is gone, in Poland too before EU pilots were like some kind of elite. Today its a fine profession but it will not be like the times before EU. Oh and if you saw how people are treated at "casual" jobs all around Eastern Europe you would not say any airline treat people bad. And self employed is "contracted staff" to perform the contracted task. You know its just a legal way to keep the state and the government out of the deal, people in Poland work like that because they do not wish pension and other government promised stuff that the government will not deliver upon + no one trust the politicians.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Its enough in Norway with 165 km/h on a road of the quality of autobahn like E6 in Østfold (and the road starts straight from the border as autobahn quality). Its like the normal speed people drive in Germany on autobahn or like in Poland where its 140 km/h on autobahn and for like 160-170 km/h its like a 20 euro fine. So people do not even imagine they can be jailed at all for speeding not to mention for such a speeding. So it should be info on the border since its the only nation in the world jailing people for speeding only (without running from the police, having an illegal street race or doing other obvious jail stuff). Since the point is well prevention of speeding and not getting tourists who do not know jailed.... so even more reason to put that info on the border that speeding will get you jailed in Norway.

And no laws shall not be made to individual requests THAT is why no one should be preventively punished because some people fail at exercising their freedom. Its the exact point that if 99 % of people do not crash even when speeding then the 1 % who do crash should be jailed and not the 99 % preventively because maybe they could have done something that could harm someone or his property but actually they did NOT. And the whole world seems to agree except Norway in case of speeding. And the same should work for everything if there is no victim neither in personal or material harm..... then there is no crime its the most basic thing in capitalist ideology. Because otherwise its not up to logic but up to the socialist politician to decide how much preventive action should be taken..... so taken to an extreme they could castrate us all because some men do rape.... and if they castrate everyone then no one will be able to rape (at least by classic definition). So I believe logic should be the basic of every law and not a politician and his "I like this so we subsidize it with tax money, but I do not like this so we forbid it". And no its not unrealistic, just look at Norway when a husky kill a child they forbid 8 different dog races..... and 2 of them on basis of how do they look like...... so it is real and no its not why Poland or anyone else joined EU to get laws made in the same way as the Soviet did.

On to the EU topic...... EU is not about workers or companies rights. Its an economic union for free flow of people and capital and its all it was ever meant to be.... only recently they started to try to make it like United States of Europe but it does not work and that is why Brexit happened and that is why politics against EU are winning everywhere from East to West. Because no one want United States of Europe, what people wanted was free flow of capital and people. And it is exactly Soviet Union standards that you are trying to force upon the East.... because not being able to make a deal without the government being involved and making the rules..... this is what soviet was about. Eastern Europe wanted freedom and capitalism and no government to make rules about contracts or deals. And no EU did not expand east to be nice and kind, but to sell mainly French and German products + be able to invest and have their companies toll free produce stuff outside of their own nations. They did not expand the EU and do not want to get Ukraine to join because they wanted to be kind and nice and give some free money away.....

People in Poland have been fighting for decades to DO NOT have the government meddle into their contracts, companies or private deals. Its why people fought for real not like "oh we go strike" but fought on the streets and risked to be killed (many got killed) to get rid of communism and be able to live in capitalism. And we did not join the EU to get forced to have socialism again. We did it so our companies could trade freely within the EU market. That the western nations wish to give away free stuff to people living there is not our problem we joined an economic union of free trade not socialist states of Europe. And we do not want to go back to the soviet standards that some people in the west desire to be the future of EU (that is why so many new political parties gain votes because people do not wish that future even in the west).

As for bribes well they happen everywhere in Poland now you have cameras in cars for driver license exam, and as for the police some take bribes instead of official fines but if they get caught they are jailed. So most do not and you can actually be extra fined if the police man feel like you are proposing a bribe. Either way I believe the nepotism system that I often saw in Norway is even worse than bribery..... because bribery is equal chance to pay for everyone.... nepotism means some people get privileges because they are in family with the officials or they are friends etc. itd. and someone who is not a friend of a friend will have no chance to get inside to get an official state job or many other things. Its just a different flavor of bribery and you wrote about it in the SAS topic even so do not deny that you do not know about nepotism in Scandinavia.... for me its even more unfair than bribery. And of course I am against bribery but if you see bribery in the East then check nepotism in the north.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Losing license (they can actually not take the license for every nation even Norway can not take Polish license for Poland for example because Poland can give it back, they can only ban you from driving in their nation) being banned for driving in UK or France.... especially for a tourist is like no problem if the tourist does not really wish to visit there all the time. And a fine is something you can get for breaking a civil deal so its also natural. But to be jailed for it is something totally different it can ruin peoples careers not only pilots but also judges and many others especially when its the only nation in the world practicing something like that.... so if the reason is to get people to drive slower and not to fine and jail them then even more point in placing info at the border especially when people enter with autobahn.

As for Poland there is 140 km/h on A1 and A2 autobahn, its 120 km/h on motor express ways but (they look like autobahn but are not) and its like 20 euro fine to drive 160-170 km/h on the 140 km/h autobahns for 150 km/h you skip fine since its inside tolerance. In Germany there is free speed in like 80 % of the road from Poland to Netherlands/Belgium or from Poland to Denmark....... so what fine if there is free speed?

And your logic sounds taken to an extreme like "if castrating everyone prevents 1 unnecessary rape then we should all be castrated" and its definitely the socialist logic of things. Forbid, forbid, forbid preventive instead of punishing the guilty.... and letting the not guilty be free. And in the end it gets to stuff like politicians forbidding everything they do not like and the reason can be looks alone like the case is with 2 dog races in Norway.... so if you can forbid a dog because you do not like how it looks like then what is the next thing a politician can forbid.... oh I forgot they can force you to have the same color on your house as the neighbor because its aesthetic.... no one care about your private property if the politician decide he want all houses white then white it is. So what will be next when Rødt, SV and MDG get in control.... poor those 15 % Norwegians who vote FrP or Liberalistene they are probably also those who have to pay the highest taxes.....

I am not comparing EU with the Soviet Union I said it was the direction it was starting to walk towards..... until people realized it and stopped it. Because by voting all those new political parties they actually made the old ones stop in fear of being voted out of office if they continue on the road towards United Socialist States of Europe. Of course it is much poverty in the East the reason is all those years with forced socialism..... its not like anyone voted for it even in Russia. Imagine communism came to be through a revolution and the leaders were trained in the west (Switzerland), the ideology was created in the west (Marks & Engels) and Germans paid for the revolution as part of I World War and gave Lenin a train filled with gold to buy the first revolutionaries with. Then the rest of Eastern Europe who were still free and had higher GDP per capita than for example Norway..... got crushed and devastated by another ideology coming from the west.... national socialism.... like 20 million civilian people (not counting military casualties) in Eastern European nations got murdered (they were "only" shot, burned to death, blown up with grenades, hanged etc. itd. so its not being talked about like the concentration camps) almost all factories and everything was bombed and destroyed... then the nice western allies sold their pre war ally Poland to the Soviet Union and we got forced socialism while everyone else got Marshall help... but of course its all our fault that there is lower GDP per capita today.... and its the great hard work of Norwegians and not the soviets restraining from "liberating" more than Finnmark + marshall help + finding oil that made the big difference from lowest GDP per capita before WW2.... of course no luck involved not at all....

Either way socialism of every kind have been suffered in Poland and no one wants any more true or untrue socialism. Most people wish capitalism and freedom now, and we believe the government is not a necessary middle man in our deals with companies. We do also not wish to pay as much as possible to politicians in order for them to waste our money (since no pensions etc. will be paid or they will be peanuts), we do not trust the politicians and believe its better to govern our life ourselves than to have a politician tell us how to live.

I do not know so much about Wizz Air, but I gave you proof that Ryan Air Sun pay more to self employed Captains flying 900 hours than you will ever get in netto salary as Captain for SAS or Norwegian in Norway. Still you tell me its exploiting workers and it would be much better if the Captains got employed and got half of it as netto salary. Because you can not legally get that deal in UK so no one should be able to earn so much netto or is it not the main idea behind socialism? Envying those who get a better deal or more money, the core of Norwegian "janteloven" ?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Actually there are many non Polish captains working for Ryan Air in Poland.... but not everyone want to live here because to each his taste just like not everyone wish to live in Dubai. Its also about knowing or not knowing the local language that affect the quality of life for foreigners.

Well maybe some other comparison then what about "If not letting in any refugees prevents 1 unnecessary terror attack then why let anyone in" and there are many other things that can be applied to this socialist logic that socialists will not like. And what is being prevented by banning dogs because of their looks or forcing people to paint their houses in the color of neighbors house? When you let politicians decide they will not stop with banning one thing they will continue until they make the world as the politician like it. As for a public road its ok with speed limits and fines its like terms and conditions any private company can make. But jailing people have to be overkill and it is reflected in the fact that only one nation in the world does it and skip informing on the border.... if prevention is the goal then why not inform foreigners?

No my parents did not leave soviet Poland they left independent Poland in 1997. And sadly my mother chose Norway and not the US as was planned because Norway changed totally their terms and conditions for doctors to get foreign doctors and started paying much, much more than other nations because they lacked doctors and the health queue got out of control. And I am pretty sure my early life would be much more fun in US.... but now I form my life myself. I am not hateful of Norway I feel sorry for those 15 % Norwegians who vote FrP and Liberalistene and have to endure all the socialism.... and what they will have to endure after SV, Rødt and MDG start to govern in Norway after the next election. What the politicians will forbid will then probably have no limits.

Well in "factory worker" kind of jobs its not that great so of course they move.... but for example doctors stopped moving and IT workers never moved after 1990. And of course all those who wish to work as little as possible and get as much "free stuff" as possible from the state of course those are running as fast as they can and the nations in the west can just enjoy its their laws and politics we are happy those people move to where they can get "free stuff" because we got no "free stuff" to give away to those who do not wish to work at all if possible.

Oh and no we do not need to increase population with people who do not wish to work, we also do not really need to increase it with 3 millions "refugees" from Ukraine.... you know Polish workers would be more than happy if the demand for workers is higher than the supply. You know basic law of economy if the demand exceed supply then salaries go up and up. So even letting the Ukrainians in is not something the "factory workers" in Poland cheer for, letting in people who only wish "free stuff" that would be total disaster. Wonder why for example Germany got 2 million refugees but they still need to hire workers from Poland to work on their farms for example? Something is not right getting 2 million extra people but still lacking workforce while having to give away "free stuff" to the new citizens. But that is another discussion in a capitalist world there should be open borders for everyone, but since there would be no "free stuff" then only real refugees and people who wish to work would leave their own countries.

Oh and no right side is sadly not strong in Poland we got only like 5 % for Partia Wolnosc (Party of Freedom which is the Polish Capitalist party) the law and justice and civil platform are both more or less socialists (law and justice a little less pro EU than civil platform but thats it) as for my taste and they give away "free stuff" to buy votes for our taxes.... still they know how far they can go before they are out of office and no one dare change the law to make people pay even more tax. So self employment will stay.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Definitely not a right problem, maybe some problems with nationalists who wish free stuff which bring them to some extra mild version of national socialism..... You know the right is capitalist at least for me and there is no "free stuff" and no nationalism in capitalism.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Oh soviet union handed out a lot of "free stuff" to people who were members of the communist party or friends of them. But in the end they ran out of other peoples money like every socialism will in the end since no one will work hard so his neighbor can slack and get the same result. The problem is not the "free stuff" the problem is that imagine the stuff is not free its actually robbed of hard working people in the form of tax.

I do not know where you are spending your time, the only thing capitalism wish is give you freedom. While the only thing it looks like you wish is to take away that freedom especially for pilots who wish to be self employed. You do know that in a capitalist nation there is room for every ideology and every individual to live as he/she wish to. Even communists or national socialists or religious socialists can go together buy private property and make their own rules.... (with exception for jailing or killing each other) they can do what they want and make people who wish to join them sign any contract or deal (if the person signing is legally sane) that makes any fine they wish for breaking their rules and that let them expel people from that private property (which can be owned as a collective of those participating). You know capitalism is about freedom so you can live your life as you only wish it only prevent you from forcing others to live in the way that you believe is the best. In capitalism the only common tax is the value added tax to pay for police, jails and courts.

So feel free to give away as much as you wish just skip trying to force me participate in paying for the "free" stuff and give aways.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: Imagine all the stuff is not free someone have to pay for it, money is not growing on trees no matter how hard socialists would wish it did. The only absolutely necessary stuff is courts, police, fire service and jail. But value added tax can also finance health care and schools.... other than that roads should be taxed by use since they are already public, new and better roads can be built by private companies.

The "capitalist elite" will have to follow absolutely the same rules as everyone else in a free market capitalism. That in difference to the current system where they can lobby the politicians and change the rules as they see fit. In a constitutional capitalist republic (like the US before central bank was created) the elite can not do as they want because the politicians can not just disregard the constitution that guarantee freedom. You have the system right now with "corporationist" elite that have free reign.... and you are afraid it would happen in the only system that is a solution to the unlimited government and elite power.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: It is as the name say: value added tax its an extra tax on products (and services) purchased by private consumers (business to business you can deduct it). And the state decide how much it will be (but in EU not lower than lowest allowed in order to not "steal customers" from other member states) for example in Norway its 25 % while in Poland it is 23 %. And no it is not only used as a toll for foreign products. Its used on products both foreign and homemade, only for export the tax is deducted to help the export. Between EU states there is no deduction and customers still have to pay it.

Oh and I will tell you a little "secret" the Value added tax brings a lot more money to the state than income tax, yes even in Norway https://www.statsbudsjettet.no/Statsbudsjettet-2019/Satsinger/?pid=89003 "merverdi avgift". In other nations where the income tax is not so extreme and there is no tax on savings and no tax on stuff companies own like chains (so companies do not have to go bankrupt when they have a bad year in order to pay the tax on savings that are unsellable) the VAT is the biggest income the state got. So in other states income tax is more like "envy tax" than it is really necessary to run the state. In Poland for example adding a little more than 1 % value added tax and removing income tax + then being able to remove all bureaucracy required for the income tax would make the state actually have more and not less money (of course the politicians would just waste it but still). So now you know why VAT can be enough to run a state and even fund some "free" things if really, really necessary for humanitarian reasons.

As for USA then no I have not lived there, and before you ask no it is not my ideal state today. It was historically perfect in terms of economy (not freedom because of some laws from the past restricting peoples private life but those laws were then everywhere all over the world) before 1913 when the federal reserve bank became the first step to destroy the constitutional capitalist republic.

[rotorwills]

I wouldn't be using any reference to Richard Branson considering his total disregard to paying tax. He has always hidden his companies behind Caribbean tax shelters. He's a disgrace, yet many uneducated people look up to him as some sort of business role model.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: So first of all I said USA was perfect in historic times not today. Then if waiters are not paid more it means one of the 2 things: 1. The tips are better than a fixed salary OR 2. There is so high supply of waiters no one need to pay more because the demand for them is not so great. If 2 is true then people should try some other jobs, it is not like they study 5 years to become a waiter. Oh and by the way in Norway waiters did not cry high because salaries were too bad, they were outraged when the government taxed their tips actually.

I do totally support companies giving good terms and conditions to their employees or self employees. And I would as business owner also wish to have happy workers. I do not know what made you think something else. What I said is that I do not want to make the politicians and the government be part of the deal, and I do not want to give mine or my employees wage away in tax so people voting for stuff like Rødt or MDG can get it as "free stuff" and never work a single day while they got time to scheme how to restrict my and others personal freedom.

The point where we disagree is what makes us happy as an employee. I wish maximum possible salary with a minimum possible tax to be given away by me and the company to the politicians. While probably you rather have a more predictable schedule even if it means less salary and much more money given away to the politicians.

@rotorwills: And why would it be bad that he do not wish to pay tax to politicians and governments? He pays his share by paying VAT all the time be buys something and its more than enough to run basic government and basic services. The government should be reduced to the absolute minimum not boosted up so we get more regulations and more bureaucracy and more control of our private life.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: If you are employee in Poland the company employing you can also say goodbye and next. The only difference is that the politicians will be happy that you paid a lot more of your money to their budget so they had more to give to friendly building companies or to buy votes against your interests for your money.

If you are self employed the law of supply and demand apply just as much to you than any employed with the state as middle man. So they will not fire you if they need you, and if being fired is what someone with experience is most afraid of.... well it does not say much good about the person afraid to not pass an assessment at any other company. In a capitalist world if you are good & experienced for example a captain then you think "bad for them" and get self employed by another company and do your best so they are happy to have you there and do not wish to lose you (for example you are there after they call you when they need you for example because someone who should be there did not show up) and rather give you some extra money than employ someone who will for example not do so much for the company even if the other guy is cheaper because the cheaper guy can turn more costly the day when people call sick and there is no one who wish to come fly for example.

Of course all of this will only work if there is more demand than supply, if its the other way around no employee contract will save you cause the company will rather close down (happens even in Norway, especially when the state want "formueskatt" on machinery the company need and can not sell) than go bankrupt keeping people while they go in minus. Then they reopen in a different country or as a new company when the market turn around.

[booze]

Did you guys know that pprune has private messaging function as well, so no need to open threads just for a personal chat between you two ;)