View Full Version : EE Lightning – nuclear Bomber!?
Brewster Buffalo
27th Apr 2019, 19:20
Read in Chris Gibson’s Secret Projects.
Desperate times lead to desperate measures …..
In the early 1950s the prospect of a formation of Soviet nuclear armed bombers heading our way lead to the idea of strapping a nuclear bomb to a Lightning to deal with them. No idea whether this was to be a kamikaze type mission though carrying a 2000lb Red Beard isn’t going to help its interception range.
In the end nuclear warheads became smaller and the idea was abandoned in favour of using the Bloodhound missile as the delivery method.
From a Lightning pilot:
mmmmmmmmmm…………...
oxenos
27th Apr 2019, 22:09
In the early 50s did we perhaps have a lot of Lightnings that were surplus to requirements?
safetypee
28th Apr 2019, 06:57
The Lightning did have an unused ‘NWS’ (Nuclear Weapons Switch) on the stick-top ! ;)
Dr Jekyll
28th Apr 2019, 07:34
Was it actually a 'bomb' being considered, or the Genie air to air missile that had a nuclear warhead?
nipva
28th Apr 2019, 09:33
In the early 50s did we perhaps have a lot of Lightnings that were surplus to requirements?
Oxenos,
I very much doubt it as the first Lightning squadron did not form until 1960. As to carrying a nuclear bomb, as a two tour WIWOL I cannot imagine where it could have been carried. There were no wing/fuselage hardpoints apart from the 2 missile pylons which could only mount Firestreak. Space was at a premium in the Lightning fuselage but I suppose that the radome or weapons pack could have ben substituted. There was of course space in the 'elephant ears' !
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 09:48
A bite already
safetypee,
Nice try with the NWS switch (and the wink emoji).
Never incorporated was the Nosewheel Steering but the NWS switch was fitted.
I share the comments of nipva and I am also a WIWOL of the same age.
oxenos, when did you fly the Lightning ?
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 09:57
oxenos, when did you fly the Lightning ?
I didn't, but I do enjoy a bit of fishing. You're the second bite today.
Dook! Let them have their little joke! We know that after defending our skies in the U.K. and Germany, we both went on to be single seat Strike/ Attack pilots who spent days in Q cuddling a tactical nuclear weapon! I think we deserve a bit more respect!
safetypee
28th Apr 2019, 17:46
As I recall, the largest fitting on the Lightning weapons pylon was a Sea Vixen PR modified drop tank - MPC Valley, but never flown. The objective was to identify Jindivick towed target flare break up; a Phantom with PR pod was used with IR film - without success.
bill fly
28th Apr 2019, 17:53
Oxenos,
I very much doubt it as the first Lightning squadron did not form until 1960. As to carrying a nuclear bomb, as a two tour WIWOL I cannot imagine where it could have been carried. There were no wing/fuselage hardpoints apart from the 2 missile pylons which could only mount Firestreak. Space was at a premium in the Lightning fuselage but I suppose that the radome or weapons pack could have ben substituted. There was of course space in the 'elephant ears' !
Well unless my old lot (with hoses) were along to support them, they might have had the range to bomb the Isle of Wight...
Hello Newt.
It's amazing how threads here drift away from the first post.
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 18:19
bill fly, I think we might have upset the wiwols
That should be WIWOLS in upper case. :)
And that’s not a thing you should never do lightly! We still bite!
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 18:30
The fishing really is very good today,. Bite after bite. Still, they are only wiwols. Sorry WIWOLS.
Dook! Just look at his bio! Not even worth passing the time of day!
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 18:48
Not even worth passing the time of day!
Unless of course you were sitting in a dinghy
Flap40
28th Apr 2019, 18:54
I miss the days of flying with WIWOL's, WIWOP's, WIWOC'c or WIWOV's. I've just had my first WIWOT (and I don't mean Tornado!).
Obviously lower deck on finishing FTS!
Flap40
28th Apr 2019, 19:10
That's not T for Tankers. I'm talking about a twin engined single seater.
bill fly
28th Apr 2019, 20:49
bill fly, I think we might have upset the wiwols
If I knew what a Wiwol was I might agree!
However I don’t think referring to the range of the Lightning carrying a bomb without refueling is thread drift - or should that be dinghy drift...
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 21:07
If I knew what a Wiwol was I might agree!
Seems to stand for "when I was on Lightnings"
They do rise to bait very easily and lack a sense of humour. I'm getting bored. I shall throw them back, and in future fish in deeper water.
Thank god for that! We are rather old and maybe past our prime but we did our bit. Oh and I think you meant “When I Was On Lightnings!” WIWOL!
oxenos
28th Apr 2019, 21:19
Wibble, wobble ,whatever. Of course you did your bit, and no-one else did anything, and now it's time for your Horlicks.
Herod
28th Apr 2019, 21:25
WIWOW. Some of us got shot at. I won't bore you with the war stories
Children, children, children! This is supposed to be light hearted banter! Not we did more than you did! We only corrected
Brewster on his ridiculous statement that the Lightning was considered as a nuclear bomber! As obvious experts on Lightning matters, our opinion should be respected! I retire to my bunker with a glass of single malt! Sod the bloody Horlicks!
BEagle
29th Apr 2019, 06:28
WIWOLs were definitely the top of the tree back in the mid-'60s. As far as the genpub were concerned, the RAF had Fighter Command Lightnings, Bomber Command V-bombers and Flying Training Command's Red Arrows.
Although there were a few aged aviators in yellow Whirlwinds which made the local news clattering about fishing idiots out of the sea when their lilos drifted too far from land, or dropping hay bales to sheep on Dartmoor, they were seen as rather lower deck.
Jets ruled the skies - anything else was definitely lower order. Quite right too!!
Hope the single malt was good, newt!
Herod
29th Apr 2019, 07:47
BEagle. Wrong "W"
bill fly
29th Apr 2019, 08:59
Thanks for the education! I guess I am a WIWOVK1A but this shot should satisfy all, 54, 55, 56 and 57 Sqn over the Med one sunny day...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1439/54_55_56_57_formation_feb_70_hr_56d8169f18ee95876321d72de058 d9bae854404a.jpg
Very nice photo.
From what aeroplane was it taken ?
I assume close to Cyprus since you mentioned 56 Squadron.
nipva
29th Apr 2019, 12:16
Very nice photo.
From what aeroplane was it taken ?
I assume close to Cyprus since you mentioned 56 Squadron.
Probably from one of 56Sqn's Canberras shortly after 54 Sqn's detachment to Akrotiri at the end of January 1973. I also recall there having been a huge kebab at the Britannia with all 4 Sqns being represented.
bill fly
29th Apr 2019, 15:11
Probably from one of 56Sqn's Canberras shortly after 54 Sqn's detachment to Akrotiri at the end of January 1973. I also recall there having been a huge kebab at the Britannia with all 4 Sqns being represented.
Yep, Was a Canberra,
There is another shot over Ackers which might however show too much of the facility.
Missed the kebab unfortunately...
India Four Two
29th Apr 2019, 20:34
How about replacing one of the engines with a Vigilante-style bomb bay? ;)
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1315x494/north_american_a_5a_internal_bomb_bay_41336bbe849900d1c87d4c effefbd7dcb4b17d6c.png
Plenty of room for a Mk 28 and more fuel. What more could you want?
For non- WIWOLS, wossis ?
http://i64.tinypic.com/qqo5l0.jpg
India Four Two
30th Apr 2019, 01:50
PR pod, innit Mister?
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/738x568/1264400b_c63e_470a_ad08_38a238f0a94f_1e4115b858c22c7c6377cd5 0ce0e8dde421d6340.jpeg
PS I love the “Waste of Space” Strikemaster in the background!
megan
30th Apr 2019, 05:08
PR podPublic Relations? That'd be where you carry the brochures to hand out at air displays then. :p
treadigraph
30th Apr 2019, 05:53
You learn something new every day - wasn't aware of the Vigilante's bomb bay. Mind you, don't think I've ever seen one even in a museum though I see one is the gate guardian at Key West NAS which I've flown over several times.
Sorry, back to EE's finest...
DaveReidUK
30th Apr 2019, 07:28
Wide-angle shot of that F.53 at Farnborough 1968 (as it happens, the first one that I attended):
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x600/english_electric_lightning_f_53_saudi_arabia_at_farnborough_ airshow_1_b833c7b391f0eb9d3d6bffe71e17cf26c6d69a80.jpg
Note, compared to the photo above, that the reconnaissance pack has been rotated to expose the camera windows.
Also worth noting is the interesting overwing SNEB rocket pack/fuel tank combo.
Haraka
30th Apr 2019, 16:51
The "Photo Recce " pack for the Lightning was based upon an 18 inch diameter cylinder. This structure was adopted by W,Vinten Ltd, as the basis for their very successful range of pylon mounted VICON 18 Recce pods. over many years.
Never see that SNEB arrangement before, was it ever deployed?
India Four Two
30th Apr 2019, 21:36
wasn't aware of the Vigilante's bomb bay
treadders,
I had a recollection of it, but I had to double-check before posting, in case I was remembering an April Fool spoof! :)
DaveReidUK
30th Apr 2019, 22:48
Never see that SNEB arrangement before, was it ever deployed?
The only photos that I've seen of F.53s with SNEB pods are the Saudi one above at Farnborough 1968 and a Kuwaiti example at Paris the following year.
You learn something new every day - wasn't aware of the Vigilante's bomb bayThe A-5 was in the fleet at the time of my basic training. It was said that the reason it failed in the bomber role was that upon ejection the bomb tended to follow the aircraft in trail. Perhaps a bit of jocularity rather than fact.
Edited to add, seems to be factual to some degree. From RA-5C Vigilante History (http://www.bobjellison.com/RA5C_Vigilante.htm) Although a viable system in theory, in actual practice difficulties were encountered in clearing the linear bomb bay during operational use
safetypee
1st May 2019, 06:50
As I recall, only the bomb option on the outboard pylon was used in overseas service.
Now if the over-wing SNEBS were changed to mini retard nucs … … but then similar problems as jettisoning the over-wing fuel tanks - empty first.
India Four Two
1st May 2019, 20:51
Farnborough 1968 (as it happens, the first one that I attended)
That was at least my eighth Farnborough. I have no recollection of the extensive display in front of the F53. Perhaps it was simplified for the public days? Alternatively my memory is failing! :)
Haraka
2nd May 2019, 05:59
One of the wettest Farnboroughs. for many years!
Brewster Buffalo
5th May 2019, 20:00
Some more info from another of Chris Gibson's books. The idea was proposed in 1954 and only the then, under development Lightning and the Javelin would have the performance to deliver the weapon and survive. They needed to be about 4000m away from the 25kt weapon. Delivery would be loft using AI radar.Lack of early warning could mean that the weapon was used over land...this, and other reasons, lead to proposal to use the Bloodhound missile instead.
Brewster Buffalo
8th May 2019, 14:03
Was it actually a 'bomb' being considered, or the Genie air to air missile that had a nuclear warhead?
It was a bomb though far more research went into deploying the Genie on the Lightning.
The Genie was an American unguided missile with a 1.5kt warhead which entered service with the USAF in 1958. The Lightning would deploy just one fitted to a similar pack to the one used by the Firestreak,. The Genie missile would allow all-aspect attacks and be able to tackle targets at 60,000ft. The UK would provide the warhead; the USA the missile
In the end possible issues over US control over its use and supply, its cost, and concern over whether the UK could provide the fissile material meant it was never acquired.
baturavgan
20th May 2019, 15:53
Probably from one of 56Sqn's Canberras shortly after 54 Sqn's detachment to Akrotiri at the end of January 1973. I also recall there having been a huge kebab at the Britannia with all 4 Sqns being represented.
Nipva,
I have sent a private message to you regarding the 56 Squadron. Can you check your PMs on this forum please?
Regards, Batur
========================
Until you have a posting history you don't have access to private messaging and adding urls.
nipva
22nd May 2019, 10:20
I have emailed you direct.