Ryanair loses court case in The Netherlands

[Longhitter]

Ryanair has been sentenced to pay 8 pilots in excess of 3 million euro in total for unlawful redundancy.

In Dutch:

https://www.nu.nl/economie/5857083/ryanair-moet-tonnen-betalen-aan-acht-nederlandse-piloten.html

[Eric Janson]

I'm not a legal expert but I believe this decision can now by used as a precedent across the EU.

[racedo]

Nope because like everything this will go to appeal and figure it will be 4-5 years before it gets there.

[derjodel]

The employment laws vary a lot between EU countries, so unless this is something decided by one of the EU courts, it's not really applicable at all. And then, even if it were, before you can appeal to that instance, you'd be long broke as in some countries it can take decades to reach the point where you could even appeal to say ECHR.

[fox niner]

They lose big time.

https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBOBR:2019:2313&showbutton=true&keyword=Ryanair

and as I said in the ryanair thread elsewhere: “uitvoerbaar bij voorraad” so they have to pay up immediately regardless of an appeal.

In this link some text is in english, so read an weep.

[pax2908]

Can't read Dutch (or a mix?) but if 3M is the total for all 8 persons then it seems quite cheap actually.

[MathFox]

Can read Dutch (and know a bit or two about employment law): €3 million total in 8 wrongful termination suits is quite high for Dutch standards. Normal termination would have cost Ryanair about €400.000, the other €2.6M is compensation for unfair behaviour on Ryanair's side. (The judge had some choice words about the way RYR handled the EHEH strike and "negotiations" with the union.)

And no, this verdict is based on Dutch employment law, which is sufficiently different from the law in other countries that it does not set an EU precedent.

[andrasz]

I'm not a legal expert but I believe this decision can now by used as a precedent across the EU.

No. Legal precedent is fudamental to common law used by most anglo-saxon countries (US, UK, Canada, etc.) and many of the former colonies. Continental European countries use civil law, where rulings are based on the Civil Code (or Employment Law in this case) and precedents are usually only admissible if there is some ambiguity in applying the relevant statutes. As others have said, each EU country will have its own Employment Law, which will apply to any case in that jurisdiction. However paradoxically the ruling CAN be used as a precedent in the UK which has a different legal system, whether successfully or not is another question.

[BluSdUp]

So
RYR shut down Eindhoven base to crush the Union due to the strike, according to the Judge.
They lied to the Court and mistreated and threatened the Pilots.
All EIN flights are now flying in reverse, so no economic reason to close Base.

All according to the sentencing.
Time well spent for anyone looking for the Truth about RYR!
Quite entertaining for an old Union Pilot , I must say.
Google translate it quite well, I think.
So , The Pilot is owed 480 000 Euro at 1 June 2019 by RYR.

[fox niner]

I have just finished reading all 22 pages of the court ruling. It is an eye-watering, piece by piece slaughter of Ryanair as an employer.
I expected this outcome, however I did not expect the judiciary to be so outspoken concerning the badness/irresponsiblity/disregard towards its employees of Ryanair as an “employer”.

[BluSdUp]

Indeed Fox.
The same happened in Bremen when they went on strike.
Base closed.
Dublin, Stansted or Kaunas Base only offer!
Charming, dont You think?

[JPJP]

This made me smile. Ryanair getting their arse handed to them by a fair legal system. Beautiful.

Story in English -

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/04/24/ryanair-ordered-to-pay-eight-pilots-between-e380000-and-e480000-in-compensation/

[ph-sbe]

First things first: the way that RYR handled this, sucks. I have never flown them and never will.

That said, this is not something to celebrate, for multiple reasons. First of all, this decision is based on the earlier decision, which was a preliminary 1-judge verdict. Second, even if it stands (RYR have already announced their appeals), and the former employees do get what they are awarded in this judgement, they still need to pay a significant amount of tax (mind you, that's 52% in .nl). All in all, they will be out of cash in three years.

Well, not too bad, you'd think. I've got three years to find another job. Remember that you now have three years to find another job while you're out of a job, have to maintain your proficiency, and have on your resume that you sued your previous employer.

Either way, this poor crew lost big. Remember that this is a very personal thing for them, but nothing personal for RYR's attorneys. It's just a cost to RYR, but many nights awake for the individuals involved. The monetary awards just makes it hurt slightly less, if it is upheld on appeals. Moral of the story: RYR sucks as an employer (but what else is new?).

[Intrance]

I honestly don't think the fact of "sueing your previous employer" will matter too much for any decent employer. Nor do I think many will ask about it, if pilots are really needed. Nor do I think any of them will list "Flew for Ryanair from 20xx - 2019, sued their asses, hehe" on their CV. News cycle will move on in a bit, recruiters and HR departments will forget, they will be flying again before the end of the year if they are motivated enough. Perhaps not in their country of choice, as the market is small in the Netherlands, but that's something everyone has to deal with.

[racedo]

So you won and may take years before you get any compensation if at all. Now get another job in a different country IF you can. Probably have 3-4 years of stress because of it. Ryanair offered you a base in another country earning same or more.

As for HR Departments, on a borderline between 2 candidates one of whom sued their employer, balancing out risk you will avoid.

[Callsign Kilo]

Doubt it will prevent them from trying something similar somewhere else if push comes to shove. Regardless of the verdict, it wasn’t Ryanair that suffered here. The stress on the former employees would have been untold. Ryanair will dust itself off and move on, it won’t alter its methods. It would take a massive cultural upheaval in management for that to happen.

[SMT Member]

So you won and may take years before you get any compensation if at all.

Dutch labour law works differently than what you portray. In this case, Ryanair was sentenced to pay immediately regardless of whether they lodge an appeal. You could then say the plaintiffs only have the money 'on loan' until any possible appeals have been settled, but Dutch law is pretty cut and dry in cases such as this. Thus the chances of Ryanair being successful in their appeal is somewhere between slim and none.

[racedo]

When people claim stuff is cut and dried they have never been in court with a lawyer. They see things very differently.

[fox niner]

That lawyer should try a dutch labor case, and find out how cut and dry works. Particularly after reading this verdict and the wording used. Ryanair is taking a huge gamble, which is already backfiring on them.
But hey, go right ahead and find out.

[ayroplain]

All EIN flights are now flying in reverse, so no economic reason to close Base.
What if Ryanair can prove that they have a better financial result by flying the flights in and out compared to the additional expense of running a base as well?

[pax2908]

Economic reason == ryanair's survival critically depends on closing this particular base, and no other solution would save them.
IMO the fine is so gentle that it almost encourages them to do this again. I only hope ryan will appeal :)

[fox niner]

What if Ryanair can prove that they have a better financial result by flying the flights in and out compared to the additional expense of running a base as well?

Let’s suppose that Ryanair can make more money elsewhere. And that they can prove that that is a fact.
That is not the point.
The point is, as stipulated in the verdict by the judiciary, that Ryanair must abide by the local labor rules. Those rules are very clear and fair. Also for all companies. If you decide to stop/end your business, you must provide an adequate transition for your workforce. Those rules are non-negotiable, and very stringent.
Ryanair is in contempt of its employees, and in contempt of the way things are run here. Including all organisations which guard our well being here. And there are many.
The only reason in existence in which you don’t have to pay anything is when you go bankrupt.
Go away, we don’t want your yellow-blue planes on our runways. Bugger off.

[racedo]

Actually it is the point as if Ryanair prove they can make more money by shutting base then the key agruement used in the initial court case fails. Cannot rely on something you claimed when it is shown to be false.

[BluSdUp]

Actually You need to read the verdict.
You are wrong. The Judge has explained it quite nicely.
Not in Britain now you see.
As in Norway and NL there is strict rules of engagement with regards to what a Company can do.
This is why RYR had to take down CCTV in the Crewroom at Rygge Oslo and why they had to pay Alexandra Cocca , a wrongfully fired Cabin Crew 3 annual wages as a out of court settlement some years ago.

Do not for one second think that the Dutch Jugde has done a sloppy job.Most of Europe is looking for precedence with regards to RYR cases.
How it works in the UK is a whole other matter, not to be confused with anything in Europe.

[fox niner]

I have just finished reading all 22 pages of the court ruling. It is an eye-watering, piece by piece slaughter of Ryanair as an employer.
I expected this outcome, however I did not expect the judiciary to be so outspoken concerning the badness/irresponsiblity/disregard towards its employees of Ryanair as an “employer”.

Aaaaaand here we go for round two in this slaughter by the court. The appeal has been ruled. Ryanair is told that they are a particularly irresponsible employer and need to pay up big time. The exact amount will be decided later. The pilots concerned are asked for extra info so that the court can appoint an amount.

https://www.rechtspraak.nl/Organisatie-en-contact/Organisatie/Gerechtshoven/Gerechtshof-s-Hertogenbosch/Nieuws/Paginas/Ryanair-moet-piloten-vergoeding-betalen-wegens-ernstig-verwijtbaar-handelen.aspx

the 8 individual verdicts are down the page. (In dutch)

[Jhieminga]

I quickly read through one of them, and that paints a pretty clear picture, leaving one certain company with red cheeks from a firm slapping. No doubt the other seven will only add to that redness.

There is a bit at the end that points towards a discussion on further financial settlement between the company and the pilots though, so we may see this being resolved between the parties involved. Between the lines, the pilot(s) are also being told to use a different basis for establishing the costs of transfer and other penalties, as some assumptions in their previous statements did not work out that way. Doesn't change the facts though: Ryanair will be paying up.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I can’t help but wonder how many other cases are/were pending awaiting the result of this case and it’s subsequent appeal hearing.

[MathFox]

None, as there is only two or three months to file a wrongful dismissal lawsuit in the Netherlands.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I actually meant Europe wide, not just in The Netherlands, sorry I didn’t make myself clear.
Thanks MathFox for your time and trouble.
David

[MathFox]

I do not know... But it is unlikely that these Dutch court rulings will be precedent for lawsuits elsewhere in Europe. Labour laws vary wildly between EU member states and these verdicts are soundly based on Dutch law and Dutch customs. ("Goed werkgeverschap" => "proper employer behaviour")

[iome]

Looks like Ryanair won the appeal.
Celebrating message posted on internal fleet tweet, any truth?

[fox niner]

The amount RYR is obliged to pay the pilots is reduced. They are still guilty as hell. Still labeled as the worst kind of “employer” imaginable.
It is actually a collection of separate cases (ryanair against each individual pilot) but here is one actual verdict (in dutch)
The other verdicts are also easily retrievable on this site if you speak dutch.
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:GHSHE:2020:2004&showbutton=true&keyword=Ryanair

The reason of the allocated amount is that most pilots were able to find employment, and hence the inflicted damage was less.

[iome]

Thank you for the clarification, any ideas where the figure of £230k per pilot comes from? Propaganda?

[Jhieminga]

In the previous (Feb '20) ruling, a figure of €350k was awarded as damages, but the ruling from last week states that the basis for this figure is not clear. Also, more information has been presented about the pilot's lost income from RYR and current financial situation (the example above concerns a pilot who went to work for Xiamen on a three-year contract). Based on this new situation the amount was reduced to €100k with the pilot having to pay back the excess to RYR. All other aspects of the Feb '20 ruling have been upheld.