Bankruptcy in Hong Kong

[8 Head In The Clouds]

I left HK in late 2014 after a terrible divorce. Yip another victim of AIDS.

I returned to Sydney and secured a much lower paying job to be near my kids. I had debt amounting to just over 1Million HKD when I left.

I tried to arrange a pay back plan but the banks were impossible, really unhelpful. They were demanding I physically come in and sign documents.

The matter was handed to the Official Receivers Office. I genuinely tried to resolve this issue but even the ORO were cagey and would not answer my questions just demanding information all the time some of which I was not able to supply.

After trying to resolve things for 10 months and wasting more money on more lawyers I gave up. The lawyers in HK were more money hungry and useless than those who dealt with my divorce in Oz.

I have intermittently received emails and summons from the ORO. I admit I have ignored this. I simply cannot go. I have not even been out of Australia since returning because I cannot afford it so how can I attend hearings in HK?

Now there is a court hearing to discharge my debt but the Official Receivers Office is objecting the discharge.

Does anyone have experience with this?

As a matter of curiosity would going to HK on a Gen Dec as flight crew show that a person has entered and left a country?

Thanks for any input.

[pilotchute]

You need to clarify the AIDS thing. I hope you dont mean what I think you do?

[OK4Wire]

No, pilchute, I don't think he means what you think it means.

My experience on entering HK on the GD is that, yes, it does show that you entered and left, but it takes some time (days/weeks?) for the data to show up. That's because the GDs are manually marked off. I'm sure this process will get quicker as time goes by and the electronic data from the airlines enters the .gov system more efficiently (for them).

[jonathon68]

Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome....It's a similar affliction to Australian Induced Divorce Syndrome.

[8 Head In The Clouds]

You need to clarify the AIDS thing. I hope you dont mean what I think you do?
no sorry another acronym Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome

[dragon man]

Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome....It's a similar affliction to Australian Induced Divorce Syndrome.

Is that better or worse than Flight Attendant Induced Divorced Syndrome or FAIDS.

[stevieboy330]

If you re-enter HK even on a Gen Dec, I would say it is very likely you would be detained be HK Immigration, if you fail to play ball you will be arrested & detained by HK Police.
IRD etc & the main "HKGOV" databases are linked. AS you know HK GOV is all about money & if they believe you owe them some you will not be leaving the airport until you pay.

[MadMajor]

If you re-enter HK even on a Gen Dec, I would say it is very likely you would be detained be HK Immigration, if you fail to play ball you will be arrested & detained by HK Police.
IRD etc & the main "HKGOV" databases are linked. AS you know HK GOV is all about money & if they believe you owe them some you will not be leaving the airport until you pay.

If you owe money to IRD/HK Gov, then sure you will be detained and not allowed to leave until repaying. However if money is owed to banks, I don't believe you would be detained on arrival as this is not something Immigration concerns themselves with (of course if you have some sort of court hearing that you are required to attend but skip it, then probably immigration will be alerted if you try to enter/exit HK).

[Rated De]

You never beat city hall

[Pogie]

Is there a reason that you need to go to HKG in the first place? Either just don't go there anymore, or suck it up and pay your debts like a grown up. It's not that hard.

[Hellenic aviator]

Firstly, sorry to hear about your 'syndrome'. Nobody can understand what you're going through till they've personally experienced it, unfortunately.

A few things to note:

a) It is not considered illegal to avoid paying your debts except for any owed taxes. It may be considered 'immoral' by others and advised as per Pogie to 'suck it up and pay your debts like a grown up', however, it is not illegal. Only YOU know whether you can afford to pay any bank debt incrementally or nothing at all after 'having done the sums'.

b) Your issue of owing banks an outstanding debt will turn into a civil case however unless you have broken any laws of Hong Kong then you won't be held at Immigration either entering or exiting on a Gen Dec.

3) Speaking about Gen Dec; if you recall, they (Immigration) still tick you off as you enter Hong Kong. It is still 'old fashioned' in comparison say to Australia, U.S. or other countries. However, the time shall come (eventually) whereby Hong Kong will become computerised.

As far as declaring bankruptcy, prudence would dictate to consult a bankruptcy lawyer (if you are able to afford at least 30 minutes consultation) or do some research on the internet and ascertain the consequences of declaring bankrupt. E.g. How will it affect your credit record in Sydney should you require to obtain a personal loan in the future - the consequences if Experian or Equifax obtaining information.

[8 Head In The Clouds]

If you owe money to IRD/HK Gov, then sure you will be detained and not allowed to leave until repaying. However if money is owed to banks, I don't believe you would be detained on arrival as this is not something Immigration concerns themselves with (of course if you have some sort of court hearing that you are required to attend but skip it, then probably immigration will be alerted if you try to enter/exit HK).
Thanks for the input. It’s one bank loan. When I left HK I paid all my outstanding taxes etc. Paid out 2 other credit cards (one that the ex maxed out on before I knew of her intention to bail). But this big personal bank loan was one I could not pay. I tried to keep it up, but with the divorce etc I could not come up with almost 11,000 HKD per month.

I did try make a new repayment plan but as mentioned in original post it was ‘cannot’! Plus they were insisting I come in person to try negotiate things and sign documents. FedEx would not do. It was a nightmare.

There is a hearing in a few months for the discharging of the debt. The ORO is trying to object the debt be discharged.

I hope it is discharged. Fingers crossed.

[8 Head In The Clouds]

Is there a reason that you need to go to HKG in the first place? Either just don't go there anymore, or suck it up and pay your debts like a grown up. It's not that hard.

Well Pogie it is that hard. Clearly you are lucky enough not to have to make a choice between your dream job you worked so hard to get or seeing your kids.

Unfortunately I had to get to where I got to by hard work and networking, my aviation career did not come via the airforce route or a cadet scheme or having well off parents who could pad my bottom if I need a bit of help.

From 16 - 30 it was a hard slog doing up to 4 jobs at a time to earn money get my flying hours up, doing dangerous flying that no one else would do. I know other guys in same boat and I am not trying to portray I am a victim.

Getting into CX in 2006 was a massive accomplishment for me s big break. The ex and I had nothing to show for ourselves but finally things were on track. I thought ...

Little did I know my ex would have an affair with a fellow pilot (a few actually) or she would rake up debts and do a runner from HK with my kids and then be vile through the courts using our kids as pawns and trying to get money out me I did not have. Let me not even get into the $58,000 I still owe from legals over last 6 years just trying to see my kids, be a part of their lives and make their mother adhere to court orders.

I did the grown up thing .... paid more than my fair dues. Still paying. Doing right by my kids. At 45 I live with my parents, use my mothers car, I have nothing and will probably never recuperate. Sydney is expensive. My choices : I had to leave CX and a great package or not see my kids enough.

I had a fleet transfer and may need to fly into HK which is why I am asking about this.

[8 Head In The Clouds]

Firstly, sorry to hear about your 'syndrome'. Nobody can understand what you're going through till they've personally experienced it, unfortunately.

A few things to note:

a) It is not considered illegal to avoid paying your debts except for any owed taxes. It may be considered 'immoral' by others and advised as per Pogie to 'suck it up and pay your debts like a grown up', however, it is not illegal. Only YOU know whether you can afford to pay any bank debt incrementally or nothing at all after 'having done the sums'.

b) Your issue of owing banks an outstanding debt will turn into a civil case however unless you have broken any laws of Hong Kong then you won't be held at Immigration either entering or exiting on a Gen Dec.

3) Speaking about Gen Dec; if you recall, they (Immigration) still tick you off as you enter Hong Kong. It is still 'old fashioned' in comparison say to Australia, U.S. or other countries. However, the time shall come (eventually) whereby Hong Kong will become computerised.

As far as declaring bankruptcy, prudence would dictate to consult a bankruptcy lawyer (if you are able to afford at least 30 minutes consultation) or do some research on the internet and ascertain the consequences of declaring bankrupt. E.g. How will it affect your credit record in Sydney should you require to obtain a personal loan in the future - the consequences if Experian or Equifax obtaining information.


Hellenic Aviator,

Thank you for your measured and well put response. I appreciate it. Also for the understanding.

I did consult a Bankruptcy Lawyer in HK in 2015 and another here in Sydney in 2017. Both pretty much said what you did. I should just pay you 👍🏻😀.

I tried to get a loan for a car in 2017 and was knocked back simply because of my outgoings to Child Support, Spousal Maintenance, big legal fees. It was fortunately nothing to do with the situation in HK.

I am not proud of the fact I have this unpaid debt, I am a pretty decent guy and it bothers me, I really did try sort it and I truly do not have the money to repay it.

I was married when I was younger and my first wife and I divorced due to my chosen career, but no kids involved there. Then this with my 2nd wife and it been nothing but a nightmare.... 6 years of hell.

I have had a fleet transfer and will occasionally fly into HK. This is why this has all surfaced.

Well here is hoping the debt gets discharged.

Thanks Hellenic Aviator.

[BorisTheBlade]

Aren't Gen Dec's sent to the destination airport in advance of your actual arrival?

[Air Profit]

Perhaps you could contact Haldanes (the AOA's law firm) and see if they would offer you an opinion on what risks (if any) you might incur by coming to HK. That aside, you have my sincere sympathy for the situation you have described. I have another pilot friend in HK who went through much the same hell (wife fooled around). Cost him a veritable fortune to sort it out. At least his kids have figured out which parent was the one deserving of contempt. Hope it all works out for you, you sound like a pretty decent person.

[stilton]

You won’t get a real answer until you go there so why take a chance ?


A better solution would be to ask your current employer to avoid scheduling you
to fly there, they won’t be happy about it
but will probably co-operate, tricky part is
explaining the reason but still better than
being detained in HKG

[G Merch]

Is there a reason that you need to go to HKG in the first place? Either just don't go there anymore, or suck it up and pay your debts like a grown up. It's not that hard.

The average case of Prune filth right here. Nothing good to add to a fellow crew member obviously going through hard times, so you just crap on him instead.
On the flipside, kudos to all other posts showing that good airmanship isn't only limited to the flight deck.

[unitedabx]

You won’t get a real answer until you go there so why take a chance ?


A better solution would be to ask your current employer to avoid scheduling you
to fly there, they won’t be happy about it
but will probably co-operate, tricky part is
explaining the reason but still better than
being detained in HKG


Totally agree with this sentiment. I would imagine HKG is a popular trip and if you had a quiet word with your CP I am sure you could be left off the list and never rostered for one. The chance you might be detained in HKG is slim but with all you have descibed the last thing you need is to have that prospect hanging over you. Good luck.

[8 Head In The Clouds]

The average case of Prune filth right here. Nothing good to add to a fellow crew member obviously going through hard times, so you just crap on him instead.
On the flipside, kudos to all other posts showing that good airmanship isn't only limited to the flight deck.

Thanks Guys, I am appreciative of all the advice and input and for the guys being constructive rather than negative and frankly lacking in empathy.,

Might try the route of having a quiet chat with my CP, I highly doubt I am Robinson Crusoe on this.

This whole situation is something that bothers me as I do and did try do the right thing.

Keep the blue side up guys.

[unitedabx]

Thanks Guys, I am appreciative of all the advice and input and for the guys being constructive rather than negative and frankly lacking in empathy.,

Might try the route of having a quiet chat with my CP, I highly doubt I am Robinson Crusoe on this.

This whole situation is something that bothers me as I do and did try do the right thing.

Keep the blue side up guys.



Doing the right thing by your new company is paramount and I am sure will get a positive response from your CP. Good luck.

[oriental flyer]

Head in the clouds ,
I am sorry to hear of your predicament , one thing that you could do is write to the bank concerned via recorded delivery laying out your current circumstances income vs expenses , making a reasonable offer to repay the loan at a rate that won’t cripple you . If they reject the offer , I think that would place you in a very solid position

[parabellum]

What Oriental Flyer says above. Also, when talking to your CP is it possible that your present company can make you a loan that you can repay through salary and won't leave you broke? Got to be worth a try.

[bang ding ow]

Below is an assessment of my experiences of BK in HK. Your experiences could be substantially different. I believe my assumptions are correct. Time has passed since I had my BK reversed though, the civil BK law may have changed since then.

I was made BK in HK. I had no idea as I thought I had left HK for good. When I returned to HK I applied for a credit card and was repeatedly denied. After a little digging I found out why. After a lengthy process (about a year), I was able to have the BK reversed in HK court. It was reversed because the bank, Harlots, Sh*ts, Bast*#rds and C@nts didn't follow the law in declaring me BK in the 1st place. They could not have been more obvious about it if they had tried. Some things I learned along the wai:

HK follows UK law in matters of BK

You as an individual cannot declare yourself BK in HK. You are declared in default of your credit facilities by the court after the court is petitioned by your creditor. You are then issued a demand by the court to repay your loan, this is a civil action not criminal therefore, if you do not then repay you are declared BK by the court and appointed a Receiver by the court. The Receiver is exclusively appointed from the Official Receivers Office. The Receiver then takes over your finances and repays your debt to your creditor. This all supposes that you are still resident in HK.

If you have left HK permanently, this process will wind its way through court in your absence. The onus being on your creditor to enforce the various court orders. This is where I was able to sue my creditor and have the BK order reversed. Court order servicing and defendant notification procedures are very exact, precise and demanding of the creditor. Most creditor buffoons don't have the IQ to get through the 1st page of the regulations, let alone comply with the entire document. Watch very carefully your creditor's actions during this time.

The discharge of debt you mention has me confused as it occurs after an amount of time has passed, usually the end of the financial year of the year your creditor uses. The ORO usually objects initially if they feel there is a chance the the delinquent will repay his debts. However upon the expiry of the financial year and the debt still not having been paid off or being paid off, your creditor will be required by HK accounting law to write off the debt from its books and then the debt can be discharged by the court.

After all this you are BK in HK. Again this is a a civil status not a criminal one. You will not be arrested or placed in a pauper's home, etc. in HK and certainly not in you present country of residence.

If you are flight crew and occasionally/regularly pass through HK on a GD, you will be free to come and go as often as you are scheduled to. You can also pass through PAX channels free from obstruction, regardless of whether you are ticked off on a DG or your passport is checked by HK Immigration Dept. through their databases, As an entering PAX they will know that you are BK, but it is a civil issue not a criminal one and therefore they have no jurisdiction or grounds to impede your entry or exit.

All this changes should you return to HK on a permanent/semi-permanent basis. You will be required, but not compelled by criminal law, to inform your Receiver who will then garnish your salary to repay your debts. HK BK law is draconian as it relates to the delinquent. For instance, you cannot take taxis or eat out without your Receiver okay'ing it first!!

A word about credit reporting. The HK Monetary Auth. issued a franchise to US consumer credit reporting agency TransUnion some time ago. Out of the 3 credit reporting agencies in the US, TransUnion are the most benign and in my opinion, accurate. TransUnion are located in HK in the Ocean Terminal,TST. In order to see your HK credit report, you first have to make an appointment then go there. You are led into a soundproofed, non-windowed room where you will be shown your credit report. I think there is a charge although you may get the 1st one free.
Mine was accurate and showed everything.

The HK Monetary Auth. decrees that all entries into your credit report remain in there FOREVER!! In most 1st world countries, derogatory entries are deleted after between 4 and 8 years and you go on with your financial life intact. So, even though I got my BK reversed, the negative entries regarding the original loan that caused all of this are still there. As an individual, I can't get a loan or a credit card etc. because of this. Doesn't matter as I have all the credit I need from elsewhere AND I could receive credit facilities from an HK financial entity as a Director of one of my HK shelf companies....go figure.

[autobabysit]

Well Pogie it is that hard. Clearly you are lucky enough not to have to make a choice between your dream job you worked so hard to get or seeing your kids.

Unfortunately I had to get to where I got to by hard work and networking, my aviation career did not come via the airforce route or a cadet scheme or having well off parents who could pad my bottom if I need a bit of help.

From 16 - 30 it was a hard slog doing up to 4 jobs at a time to earn money get my flying hours up, doing dangerous flying that no one else would do. I know other guys in same boat and I am not trying to portray I am a victim.

Getting into CX in 2006 was a massive accomplishment for me s big break. The ex and I had nothing to show for ourselves but finally things were on track. I thought ...

Little did I know my ex would have an affair with a fellow pilot (a few actually) or she would rake up debts and do a runner from HK with my kids and then be vile through the courts using our kids as pawns and trying to get money out me I did not have. Let me not even get into the $58,000 I still owe from legals over last 6 years just trying to see my kids, be a part of their lives and make their mother adhere to court orders.

I did the grown up thing .... paid more than my fair dues. Still paying. Doing right by my kids. At 45 I live with my parents, use my mothers car, I have nothing and will probably never recuperate. Sydney is expensive. My choices : I had to leave CX and a great package or not see my kids enough.

I had a fleet transfer and may need to fly into HK which is why I am asking about this.



sorry to sidetrack, your sharing catches my attention as i’m beginning to wonder would I become to the next victim of AIDS. Having an affairs with a few pilots (cx?!) and stealing your hard earned money afterwards?! Should I never introduce my gf to my colleagues?! Or just never get married in hkg! It seems like cx and hkg are pilot-nightmare! What are the red flags that wake you up and how did you find out she had affairs??

[Slasher1]

So, to cut to the chase, did you get away with shafting the people you owed money to in HK, or did you have to pay up in the end?

Lol.....it's a two way street.

I have little sympathy for people who get in over their heads borrowing.

I have even less sympathy for people who lend money poorly. Or come up with 'easy finance' stuff charging huge interest rates (or a convoluted system which balloons the interest later) with little real collateral or security involved. Enablers of bad behavior and if they get stiffed I put it pretty deeply into the 'had it coming' category. FWIW this is routinely done on a masters degree level with currency manipulation, hedges, CDOs, you name it. So I see little shame (and possibly some benefit) in the walk away principle for those kinds of folks.

[MENELAUS]

Slasher. And Pogie. For the love of humanity. He sounds like a perfectly decent guy who’s been sh@t on. There for the grace of God go a lot of us. He’s trying to do the decent thing and elicit a sensible response here. Probably in the wrong place admittedly.
I sincerely hope you never face this sort of situation; colleagues (and I don’t count you as one ) have topped themselves over less.
Let up.

[Slasher1]

Slasher. And Pogie. For the love of humanity. He sounds like a perfectly decent guy who’s been sh@t on. There for the grace of God go a lot of us. He’s trying to do the decent thing and elicit a sensible response here. Probably in the wrong place admittedly.
I sincerely hope you never face this sort of situation; colleagues (and I don’t count you as one ) have topped themselves over less.
Let up.




Not my intent and getting overly wrapped around the axle about finances I think a waste of good living. And there is some decent advice here on the topic. These are relatively 'high class' problems compared with much of the world and in life in general (I haven't heard of folks actually starving very much so there you have it). Making your own traps and then going out of your way to worry about them when they spring (even though you're not really caught in them) seems kind of silly to me.

Point being that you might have missed is I see absolutely nothing wrong with stiffing creditors (through whatever method) who have behaved badly. But I also don't like to hear much whining from people who bought into too good to be true schemes either; whatever they might be.