Sim Checks - Horror Stories? [Archive]

DDobinpilot

30th Mar 2019, 15:05

Are you talking about checks we do every 6 months or the sim check to get the job?

Never really had a terrible sim, had one sim in my early days. Volcanic ash (a training exercise, not checked) I believe and the sim instructor was just shouting commands at me what to do so I basically didn’t really get to learn anything or gain any training value from it at all. He then wrote a terrible report about me to say I was unprepared and didn’t study enough.

I could have taken that on the chin, but the thing I found was after that for every subsequent sim for about 12 months I would get absolutely grilled as they’d looked at this previous guys report to say I hadn’t studied enough. But meh, never failed a sim, occasionally bugger up a maneover a little bit, but apart from that no issues.

Strangely enough the checker and I became friends years later and always went for a beer after the sim, and he never wrote me a bad report again 😂

Stone Cold II

30th Mar 2019, 16:41

If someone started kicking the back of my seat or shouting, I would politely say stop the sim and then get off, followed by a phone call to get me someone else.

red9

30th Mar 2019, 18:43

In five airlines , the worst " training" I have ever seen has been with , once upon a time, the "Worlds Favorite Airline".....................

anxiao

30th Mar 2019, 18:59

Have to add a comment from a flight engineer who came from an Asian airline. He said he was in the simulator of a Classic one day and the instructor had a bamboo cane which he would use to rap the F/O over the knuckles when he made a mistake. After a short time he reached round, took the bamboo cane out of the Checkers hands and folded it into several pieces, with the words, "I think we are going to get on much better without this."

F/Es were more than a third set of eyes...

bafanguy

30th Mar 2019, 20:30

If someone started kicking the back of my seat or shouting I would politely say stop the sim and then get off, followed by a phone call to get me someone else.

SC II,

Precisely ! How do these screamers and abusers get into important spots like sim instructors ? More importantly, how do they stay in these positions after they've shown their true stripes ?

PlanetEarth

30th Mar 2019, 20:54

Thankfully no assholes.

The airline I'm with now has a training department which emphasizes creating a nice comfortable atmosphere, throughly briefed, no major surprises and more a feeling of training than checking.

I feel it works well, and it increases confidence in your own skills instead of making you feel like a failure like some of the screamers can do.

november.sierra

31st Mar 2019, 00:10

The worst sim profile I ever heard about came from a German now defunct airline:

Engine start: Hot start condition, once QRH complete successful second start attempt, taxi to runway. On takeoff passing 100 kts, master caution: ELEC - continue takeoff roll, after rotation: engine separation. Once memory items completed: stab trim runaway. Cleared to a VOR to hold and once on the way to the VOR: FMC FAIL. Raw data hold due to radar failure followed by radar vectors for a manually flown single engine visual approach to land.
Reposition for takeoff: engine failure at 100 kts - RTO. Reposition for takeoff, wheel well fire after gear up, vectors to return with gear collapse and evacuation.
Reposition for takeoff: V1 cut with engine flameout and IDG failure, radar vectors for manually flown single engine raw data NDB approach to land.

Quite what the learning outcome of such a profile would be is beyond me...

iggy

31st Mar 2019, 00:17

@november.sierra

No wonder how the germans were once on the verge of world domination.

fox niner

31st Mar 2019, 08:40

I was doing an FCL check once, on the 737. It includes a performance calculation before we enter the sim. I was handed the following runway state message:
R22/520194
Metar: EFHK BKN006 200/05 04/02 (tel:200/05 04/02) Q1005
With all that info I started entering the relevant tables in the FCOM/QRH. Decided that despite the 25% coverage of wet snow, which would allow me to do a derated takeoff, I went for the full rated takeoff because the braking action was 94. (Medium to good)
So, slippery runway, medium to good, full rated as per fcom.
Instuctor said: “Wrong. You should have derated, because the runway is only covered by 25%. FAIL.”
Lengthy discussion followed, where I tried to point out that my decision was safer.. Did not even make it inside the sim. Ended up in the training department. Eventually ended up calling the union, which solved this whole charade within 5 minutes, albeit 24 hours later.
I learned a lot that day.

Stan Woolley

31st Mar 2019, 09:17

Lengthy discussion followed, where I tried to point out that my decision was safer.. Did not even make it inside the sim. Ended up in the training department. Eventually ended up calling the union, which solved this whole charade within 5 minutes, albeit 24 hours later.
I learned a lot that day.

Although it may appear in an aviation environment, I think such lessons have the potential to teach far beyond aviation. That’s why I eventually came to accept that ‘it takes all kinds’. I may have come to this conclusion when I had been a sim trainer for some time, or maybe it was after my career was cut short by illness. Either way, if you truly learn from something, it’s been worthwhile. Just maybe, we learn more from the bad experiences than we do from the good.

Jumbo2

31st Mar 2019, 11:35

In five airlines , the worst " training" I have ever seen has been with , once upon a time, the "Worlds Favorite Airline".....................

Hey Red9 have you already left to Virgin? If not how many days left?

763 jock

31st Mar 2019, 13:05

About 20 years ago I did a sim with one idiot TRE who criticised my descent planning on a "flight" from MAN to NCL. I arrived at the beacon a bit high despite my best efforts. When I looked at the stopwatch we had got there in about 12 minutes. Totally pointless if the TRE is going to cheat to try to catch you out.

bumpy737

31st Mar 2019, 16:27

In my previous airline the simulator sessions were fun, briefed and when some time was left we could try whatever we wanted.

And the worst sim while getting a job? It was for a German airline. Raw data deprature using NDB’s and intercepting some radial shortly after lift off on an Airbus which I never flew before. I would have no problem flying it on the 737CL but the Airbus logic for the NAV setting was something new to me... To make it even funnier, the last callout from the Training Captain was V1-Rotate. And you had to order everything, like changing frequency with saying the frequency and callsign during the raw data deprature... So a single pilot sim, don’t know how they wanted to check my CRM...

zeddb

2nd Apr 2019, 07:28

Only three in twenty odd years.

1: Brand new FO, TRE was a dour, very religious misery who would have been right at home burning heretics. Made me repeat the EFATO about twenty times for no good reason except that he may have suspected some deviation from the word of god. After the 10th or 15th repeat, with the LHS looking utterly horrified and me sweating buckets, the law of diminishing returns stared to set in and he threatened to ring head office and have me taken off the roster and given the airline at that time, probably dismissed. I survived but went shaken and pale to my base manager who informed me that the problem with Capt. Torqemanda was that "he's never had a blowjob".

Collapse of stout party.

2. Years later, TRE took an instant dislike to me as I have never served her majesties armed forces, unlike him and the LHS who were as thick as thieves. Got through day 1 (checking), license signed, then day 2 (LOFT) arrives. At the end of the exercise and in the briefing room, He ripped my paperwork in two and announced that he would never let his mum and dad fly in any aircraft that I was in. No further explanation given, do not pass go, do not collect 200 quid, sod off. Repeated the whole thing a few days later with different TRE who was at an utter loss as to why I was even there. That was a great educational experience.

3 Fast forward a few more years. Utter stitch up of a "command assessment" as it became obvious that I was never going to make it due to ticking all the wrong boxes - age, previous types and airlines, inside leg measurement, lack of military service, parentage and probable spiritual destination. Screaming bollocking during "debrief" after which I was asked if I had any questions. I asked if they could tell me where I had gone wrong to be informed that "no feedback is given" Looking at the blood running down the walls I started to wonder what the last 20 minutes had been about and if I was going to wake up soon and realise I shouldn't have had the fish last night. Nope, I was stuck with it.

I left their employ shortly afterwards.

Since then, nothing, such people seem to be being weeded out (the second airline had a major cull after the CAA sat in on a few training sessions). Now in the LHS and treated like a grownup it all seems like the dim distant past. Reasonable chance of being in the training seat myself at some point and I would NEVER do that, even to my worst enemy.

763 jock

2nd Apr 2019, 07:44

I’m told of a new trainer in my outfit that has a “pointer”. If it ever makes an appearance in a sim with me, I will flick the cut off switch and walk out. No apologies or discussion.

Nick 1

2nd Apr 2019, 08:03

Once we where waiting in the briefing room , the F/O and me at proper time , and the instructor show up twenty minuts later ,
with a cup of chocolate in his hand ,entered the room and pointed the cup and is finger to to F/O and shout “ Telll me about the EM. ELEC.Procedure ! “ he was about to answer , i stopped him and WE went for a cup of choco , before leave the room i suggest him to do a quick reset , when we come back he started “ Good morning , sorry for delay...

beamer

2nd Apr 2019, 08:15

First sim of my Command course sitting in the briefing room ( Monarch Luton ) with Chief Training Captain and another upgrade candidate, maybe both a little apprehensive. Halfway through the brief, a knock on the door and one of the Sim Engineers pops his head around the door and says 'hi, should you actually be here ?'. After some scratching of heads and checking rosters we phoned the crewing training desk to be told that the times were good but the venue had been changed to LGW some weeks previously !
Exit stage left, back to hotel to pick up bags, drive down M1/M25 to LGW and straight into the box. CTC says right, I'll pop you on the end of the runway and for the rest of the session we will just tootle around getting used to the left seat, no assessments, no checking and we will start to catch up tomorrow. We both passed our Command course on time !

Most of the Sim instructors/examiners I encountered were good, some very good and the odd one or two exceptional. One thing that concerned me a little towards the end was that the majority of examiners had never done any training in a relevant aircraft other than checking on the jump seat. They had never done any asymmetric work in anything bigger than a Seneca; not their fault of course, its how these things are done these days but we now have a generation of line pilots and training captains who have no real non-normal experience in the aircraft they fly or instruct/examine upon. Just sayin'.............

4Screwaircrew

2nd Apr 2019, 13:13

Arrived at sim to conduct an LPC with a body in the other seat, they arrive from the hotel I from home and we sit down for a cuppa prior to briefing. Which of you is here as the body? I am is the reply from both, check of licences shows that neither is within date to be checked without a change of date, crewing nonplussed training department not in on a Sunday so 4 hours of non checked sim to try what ever the guys wanted, expensive but a great confidence building exercise for the guys up front.

olster

2nd Apr 2019, 14:39

As a TRE myself I try to relax and assure trainees that this is an educational experience and after 2 days there should be either a gain of knowledge or revision. Having been a victim of the 70s cadre of @rseholes I try to conduct the session in a sympathetic and rational manner. There is no excuse for emotive language or veiled insults or any outward display of egomania. None of this is in any way professional. I hope that most of these dinosaurs are on the verge of extinction.

Capt Ecureuil

2nd Apr 2019, 17:30

In five airlines , the worst " training" I have ever seen has been with , once upon a time, the "Worlds Favorite Airline".....................

To counter that... although in my case only 3 airlines the best training and fairest checking by far is with that airline that you mention with 6 type ratings and I guess well over 60 sim checks + 30 odd route checks. Having said that one of the best instructors was an ex-Cathay contractor.

My comparisons may well be out of date I admit.

Edit... OK there was 1 sim at the time that RNAV approaches were first introduced with an amendment to the procedures every week, that was all very confusing. It didn't help having a competitive ex-fast jet dick in the right seat. Only bloke I've ever had trouble with on the line and refused to shake hands with at the end of a trip incidentally.

CessNah

3rd Apr 2019, 05:25

Nothing too dramatic, but watching a captain who had been in the game for over 25 years attempt the raw data ILS certainly put me on edge a little bit. We got there eventually on the 3rd attempt...

excrab

3rd Apr 2019, 08:10

Nothing too dramatic, but watching a captain who had been in the game for over 25 years attempt the raw data ILS certainly put me on edge a little bit. We got there eventually on the 3rd attempt...

Ah, the arrogance of youth 😊

CessNah

3rd Apr 2019, 08:37

Ah, the arrogance of youth 😊

Would be nice if you could elaborate in what way that was arrogant, I simply just stated what I had experienced and that was it 😅

172_driver

3rd Apr 2019, 09:51

Inability to fly a raw data approach is wide spread, old as young. I have witnessed both. However it tend not to affect those who regularly practice.

There are of course other skills as important.

excrab

3rd Apr 2019, 09:55

Would be nice if you could elaborate in what way that was arrogant, I simply just stated what I had experienced and that was it ��

Ok, that’s fair enough, and I’ll try.

I’m only guessing, but I’ve a feeling that you’re not long out of initial flight training, and are probably pretty good at hand flying raw data approaches, after all it’s what you’ve been trained for just before joining your airline. On the other hand the guy or girl you were sitting next to probably stopped flying raw data approaches 25 years ago, except when required for simulator checks. What I would humbly suggest you saw was the simulator being used as it should be, to train someone who has a weak area, and then send them on their way better able to cope if the problem should occur on the line.

My question would be “what were the rest of his operating skills like?”. I made the comment because you appeared to have picked the one part of the check or training where it could be expected that a new pilot straigjt from flight school would be better than someone who has spent years in the right than left seat of an airliner. Like the guy you were talking about I have in excess of 25 years in the left seat of multicrew airliners ranging from turbo props to 737 variants. In that time I have had to deal with and manage flap failures, gear malfunctions, pressurisation issues, smoke emergencies, trim failures, numerous diversions, medical emergencies and one engine shut down in a jet. But I have never seen both flight directors fail and both autopilots fail at the same time, except once before the days of RVSM and PBN when we dispatched with an aircraft in that state to get it to maintenance. The raw data ILS, in my possibly wrong opinion, is the least likely scenario to be faced now days in the real world. Had you said that his/her CRM was awful, that she/he couldn’t apply a failure management model, or crashed the aeroplane on a V1 cut (which he/she has practised at least twice a year for the last 25 years) then I would agree there was something to worry about. Not being able to fly a raw data ILS possibly shows a correct attitude to SOPs, depending on which airline you fly for. If the company wants its crews to use the automatics and flight directors then if you know you have a weakness with a sim check coming up you shouldn’t have to practice in the aeroplane for the simulator, it’s supposed to be the other way around.

And as this may sound like the arrogance of age, I was in the sim last night with an F/O who I thought flew a far better single engined approach than I did and was probably a bit sharper all around than I was as far as handling the aircraft went. But I’ve also been in the sim with people who aren’t. Not everyone is as good at everything, but when you walk out of the simulator with your licence signed for the next six months you are both good enough. That’s really what matters.

Fair_Weather_Flyer

3rd Apr 2019, 10:42

I’ve had a few bad experiences myself but generally sim checks have been fair. I do remember being jabbed in the back of the neck by one man whenever he wanted to make his point. Another turned up very late, did not brief properly and then went into the sim and pulled breakers and put things out of place. With the increased time pressure caused by his lateness things got missed. Debrief was in the hotel pub and of course, he had no mercy.

However, I have noticed that more often than not the problem is the reverse. Individuals passing through checks, struggling on the same stuff time and time again. Prior to a sim check with X, an examiner told me that X, did not have the faintest idea of how to deal with an engine failure after takeoff during his last check and needed to be taught the whole thing again. Sure, enough, same happens again, X, has no idea and needs to be retrained. Chance of him dealing with that kind of failure on the line are low I would say.

In addition, I would say that blind eye turning is more likely if the subject is a TRE, LTC or manager. As a Captain, I was let off a few times when retraining might have been needed. As for FO’s, they are the most likely to face harsh checking in my opinion.

staircase

3rd Apr 2019, 12:34

Having been retired a number of years now I wonder if my ‘tuppence worth’ is relevant, but here goes.

My first simulator sessions were when I became a F/O and subsequently a captain on an analogue jet 40 years ago. We got two 4 hour sims twice a year. You did get out sweaty, but I felt that it was training. We had the odd ‘discussion’ but in general I felt that it was well handled.

I then got a job flying a 757 with another company. Comparing the two I felt that I did go from being trained to being examined. Now, it may be that the comparative complexity of the systems in the part digital jet, demanded so much more to be practised and checked in the time available. I did get the impression that the training department were under a certain amount of pressure to get the ticks on the lesson plan, in order to keep the CAA happy. But some things did grip, for example an failing emergency turn at V2, because I accelerated before the turn was over, but I was well above sector safety height. And I came out of most sim checks with that type of bad feeling.

But my biggest gripe is that it seemed the emphasis on the sim ride seemed to change, in order to ensure that whenever we got a malfunction, we carried out all the required check lists and briefings. It seemed to an old hand like me, that there was a philosophy that said if all checks and briefings were carried out, then all would be fine and safe.

As an old duffer, it seemed to me that if there was a fire for example, by all means run checklists and briefings but do it whilst you are pointing as quick as possible at the nearest available runway. It is no good flying holding patterns whilst you run the check list for hold fire for example. I watched one F/O have the engine break up at rotate, and it was 40 mins later before he ‘landed’, in fairly good visual conditions. His handling of the incident was praised. 40 mins flying holds on 1 engine in the overhead of an airfield?

Off to the pub now I have had that off my chest!

meleagertoo

3rd Apr 2019, 14:32

I finally got that long-dreamed-of call for a job, type rating included for a N European 737 start-up.
First day in the system for admin etc about ten of us stood there waiting for the CI in the sim building foyer (Company had no offices as yet) at the appointed time. After 20 mins or so we were beginning to wonder if we were part of a big hoax but he eventually stamped in looking dishevilled and out of sorts, and without greeting us announced (barked) his name and counted us out loud and then demanded, very crossly, where the hell are the other three then?WHY ARE HEY NOT HERE? It semed he thought we ought to know. I never saw him smile, he had a permanent scowl and never spoke normally, he ranted, demanded or barked rahter like a much-hated disfunctional history teacher I one had. In the sim he was an utter horror, shouting NO NO NO NO! THATS'S A NONSENSE, DO IT AGAIN! etc. He trained largely by shouting, ridicule and belittlement though his tech knowledge on the 737 was legendary and he could explain and brief superbly. His usual intervention in the sim wsa a long drawn exasperated sounding NAAAAAOW! leaving you to wonder what the digamma you'd done wrong as the nature of your error always took some time to become apparent. He loved multiple failures and double jeopardy too. The training was all done on the graveyard shift in order to save money so one was always zonked. Sims were scheduled at two-three week intervals, some a month apart so continuity was zero and it was impossible to plan for a session as they always changed, sometines to a phone call, "GET OVER HERE NOW, WE'RE BREIEFING AT MIDNIGHT" a week or more before expected. Even one such call on Christmas eve - a rostered day off - in the middle of dinner. I fibbed and claimed I'd had a glass or two of wine. One session even started with me getting a stand-up bollocking for my partner being late!
Even though the opportunity of a 737 rating was precious beyond gifts I began to dread the sim and performance suffered. Finally one night after a full-scale earbashing and belittling I said to my buddy if the **** does that one more time don't be surprised because I'll hit the pickle button and tell him where to stuff his poxy training. He must have realised he was overdoing it as he lightened up just enough to prevent it and I eventually got the rating. He was the angriest man and worst instructor I've ever met by a factor of ten or twenty but to be fair he did instil in us a very professional way of operating and a very thorough knowledge of the 737 and it's systems.

Later, on the line, I had a sim recurrent with two of the national TRE/TRIs who were doing mutual checks with me sandbagging and then then my check later. We reached the hotel at 1030 the day before our 0630 sim and as is their national disposition went straight to the pub. And I mean straight. It was 'Dump bags, down here in ten!" . By 1600 I'd been accused of backsliding as I'd managed to slip back to six pints against their eight and returned to the hotel feeling awful and with some pretty unpleasant remarks about the nature of my manhood and stamina in my ears.
Later that evening I went for some fresh air and on returning from a couple of hours brisk recuperation at 2230 saw them bowl back into the hotel ahead of me, evidently straight from the pub. And right into the hotel bar!
Next morning, both the boggarts were bright as buttons, I felt like shyte and they both put in exemplary performances in the sim. I wish I could say the same. Apparently we just don't breed real men in my country. (CRM wasn't a big thing in that outfit)

Those of a nervous disposition will be relieved to know the company didn't last long, thank God.

Alpine Flyer

3rd Apr 2019, 14:47

Don't remember an unfair SIM in almost 30 years, a couple of less enjoyable occasions would have been more pleasant with better preparation on my part. The legal necessities require so many "must-have" items during training that there is actually very little leeway for the instructor to add or deduct without risking to make the check invalid. Fail too little and a required failure is missing, fail too much and a subsequent approach or go-around cannot be flown the way it's required to meet the criteria.

IMHO checks may and should be harder than what may be expected in real life. Airplane systems don't know they're not supposed to fail in pairs, and I prefer walking off a sim sweaty saying "if I could handle this, I can handle most stuff that's actually likely to happen to me in real life" than sticking to a "no multiple failures" protocol just to have more than one piece of **** hit the fan out in the clouds. Even more so for training events. Fresh from training everyone can hand-fly on instruments, even partial panel. Why not use checks and trainings to keep that skill rather than moaning that "those youngsters can't fly without a flight director" when we never ask them to hone/keep that skill. So give me some electrics or hydraulics fault on top of my V1 cut to keep me busy, even if I swear.

Meester proach

3rd Apr 2019, 17:14

Never had a bad experience with my current outfit . Very good at not employing people like that, thank god.

always feel knackered and drained at the end but the amount packed in, but that’s life. Will I still want to go in there at 65, I seriously doubt it.

MaydayMaydayMayday

4th Apr 2019, 12:27

My question would be “what were the rest of his operating skills like?”. I made the comment because you appeared to have picked the one part of the check or training where it could be expected that a new pilot straigjt from flight school would be better than someone who has spent years in the right than left seat of an airliner. Like the guy you were talking about I have in excess of 25 years in the left seat of multicrew airliners ranging from turbo props to 737 variants. In that time I have had to deal with and manage flap failures, gear malfunctions, pressurisation issues, smoke emergencies, trim failures, numerous diversions, medical emergencies and one engine shut down in a jet. But I have never seen both flight directors fail and both autopilots fail at the same time, except once before the days of RVSM and PBN when we dispatched with an aircraft in that state to get it to maintenance. The raw data ILS, in my possibly wrong opinion, is the least likely scenario to be faced now days in the real world. Had you said that his/her CRM was awful, that she/he couldn’t apply a failure management model, or crashed the aeroplane on a V1 cut (which he/she has practised at least twice a year for the last 25 years) then I would agree there was something to worry about. Not being able to fly a raw data ILS possibly shows a correct attitude to SOPs, depending on which airline you fly for. If the company wants its crews to use the automatics and flight directors then if you know you have a weakness with a sim check coming up you shouldn’t have to practice in the aeroplane for the simulator, it’s supposed to be the other way around.

And as this may sound like the arrogance of age, I was in the sim last night with an F/O who I thought flew a far better single engined approach than I did and was probably a bit sharper all around than I was as far as handling the aircraft went. But I’ve also been in the sim with people who aren’t. Not everyone is as good at everything, but when you walk out of the simulator with your licence signed for the next six months you are both good enough. That’s really what matters.

Funnily enough, I've been in that situation with losing both flight directors, both autopilots, autothrust, mach indication, Wx radar, etc, not long after take off. I was probably about 2 1/2 years in, regular line flight but with an experienced training captain in the left seat, as chance would have it. We have FMAs so heavily drummed into us that when you go to read them and it's completely blank, you very quickly have to build your SA the traditional way, shock horror! I think the skipper's prioritisation was absolutely spot on on that occasion. He was best off focusing on the problems in hand and letting me hand fly it back to London (from Hamburg; it was a lovely day). That was a great example for me in real time of how to run a non normal situation, use your resources and don't get caught up in the little details. If you've got a perfectly flyable aircraft, then a newish cadet is probably well placed to do the hands on stuff, assuming they're not being overloaded by the situation. The role of the captain in that case is surely to initially decide whether between the two of you, you have the combined skills, experience and capacity to continue down a particular path. Had it been a horrible stormy day, I imagine we'd have ended up back in Hamburg. On a nice clear day with a perfectly flyable airplane, though, you've obviously got more options when one of you is well placed to do the 'thinking' bit and the other to focus on the 'doing' bit.

Prioritisation, pragmatism and good CRM go a long way, whether in the sim or on the line. Certainly, I enjoy flying with or being trained by guys and girls with that sort of make up.

KRUSTY 34

5th Apr 2019, 04:41

Journey Man

5th Apr 2019, 08:59

I once had a chief pilot who constantly reiterated that the sim time was "your time" for training, and if the training wasn't being conducted to a high standard, to call him and he'd have it put right. That greatly altered my concept of training - it's there to make the pilot better, and it's incumbent on everyone to get the most value from it.

Of course, it was a third party training supplier so we were very much the client. Probably more difficult with in house training, but then again in house training should be highly developed to the training needs analysis of the operation.

rotorcloud

5th Apr 2019, 10:50

@november.sierra

No wonder how the germans were once on the verge of world domination.

Dude, me as a german i am actually tired about this kind of BS statements!

RoyHudd

5th Apr 2019, 20:11

The nation of Germany does have recent history which is diabolical. Sorry you are tired of being reminded of it��

Arthur1815

5th Apr 2019, 20:35

And who said ze Germans have no sense of humour? I read it as a compliment!

Odins Raven

5th Apr 2019, 20:54

hunterboy

6th Apr 2019, 05:22

Sounds like the same checker that asked me why I was using my finger to select v/s on a 747-400 MCP.
‘It’s called a THUMBWHEEL for a reason!”
My skipper commented we must have done ok if that was the only feedback he could give us.

hunterboy

6th Apr 2019, 05:28

Or maybe the checker that demanded to see my second pair of glasses as it states I must carry a second pair on my medical certificate. He wasn’t impressed that I only had a spare pair of corrected sunglasses. I did point out that I didn’t think I would need them in the Sim.

Dan Winterland

6th Apr 2019, 10:06

Sounds like the same checker that asked me why I was using my finger to select v/s on a 747-400 MCP.
‘It’s called a THUMBWHEEL for a reason!”

I'm not sure I want to know what he insisted you use to turn a knob.

Flying Wild

6th Apr 2019, 19:56

BizJetJock

7th Apr 2019, 13:59

No, there is no requirement to have a valid medical for an LPC in the sim. The TRE is required to formally remind the candidate after (s)he has passed that they may not exercise the privileges until they have renewed their medical. Interestingly, also true of a check in the aircraft for single pilot types, since legally with the examiner as PiC the candidate is not a required member of the crew!

Nick 1

7th Apr 2019, 15:21

EIFFS

7th Apr 2019, 18:52

Well this is another Horror Stories , because at my last LPC the TRE refused to let me enter the sim , my medical was due the next days , but his words where that the sim is exactly like the real airplane , you can’t enter it and “ fly “ if your medical is expired.

v interesting stories and sad that some feel the need to bully sim candidates, it really isn’t necessary and achieves only negative training/checking.

The conduct of an LPC is clearly outlined in standards doc 24, many national authorities are very strict on the conduct of tests and especially multiple failures, the bottom line if you feel that the conduct of the LPC was genuinely was unfair then you are fully entitled to submit a formal complaint, any physical abuse, touching, gender humiliation will all most certainly result in the suspension of authority to conduct tests, remember the examiner is aurthorised by the national authority and NOT the company, so a compliant to authority will lead to a company/authority investigation.

I would suggest that all pilots read standard doc 24 ( all EU authorities use basically the same document) the CAA (UK) are the lead authority and much of standards around the world are based on their expertise.

That things go go wrong with rostering/ crew mix is inevitable when dealing with sim planning and sometime the instructor/examiner is messed around every bit as much the guys/girls in the front.

Remember the evexaminer doesn’t fail you....you and I mean you should only fail if YOU fail to reach the required standard to excercise the privileges of your licence.

Most larger companies will have at least one “arsehole” and I’ve known people go sick rather than be checked by them, in pilot training management we see this trend very quickly, but we can’t act unless we get complaints, we can’t exactly go to said TRE and ask why pilots go sick rather than be checked with them, we should not interfere with their judgement, for that is a slippery slope, again remember the TRE authorisation is from the authority not the company.

Always Try Reset

7th Apr 2019, 19:11

PlanetEarth

8th Apr 2019, 01:33

At which point you should ask him to demonstrate the nosewheel steering
:D Many nice stories here. I hope most airlines are modern enough to weed most of these guys out nowadays.

skyflyer737

8th Apr 2019, 03:24

Or maybe the checker that demanded to see my second pair of glasses as it states I must carry a second pair on my medical certificate. He wasn’t impressed that I only had 1 pair of corrected sunglasses. I did point out that I didn’t think I would need them in the Sim.

Must be the same checker I had for my initial LST on the 747-400....or are they all briefed to make life extra stressful in that company? I was asked to present my second pair of glasses which as far as my understanding goes is not required in the sim, only in an aircraft. I offered to shoot out to the car park after the session to prove I owned a second pair but that was not good enough apparently. He had to call the training dept at the end of the session, saying he was unwilling to sign me off. Surprise surprise he was ordered to stop being pedantic and get the paperwork completed.

red9

8th Apr 2019, 10:31

Must be the same checker I had for my initial LST on the 747-400....or are they all briefed to make life extra stressful in that company? I was asked to present my second pair of glasses which as far as my understanding goes is not required in the sim, only in an aircraft. I offered to shoot out to the car park after the session to prove I owned a second pair but that was not good enough apparently. He had to call the training dept at the end of the session, saying he was unwilling to sign me off. Surprise surprise he was ordered to stop being pedantic and get the paperwork completed.

I had an almost identical scenario - so I am guessing that this guy was airbus fleet and is now 747 fleet......

sonicbum

9th Apr 2019, 09:15

v interesting stories and sad that some feel the need to bully sim candidates, it really isn’t necessary and achieves only negative training/checking.

The conduct of an LPC is clearly outlined in standards doc 24, many national authorities are very strict on the conduct of tests and especially multiple failures, the bottom line if you feel that the conduct of the LPC was genuinely was unfair then you are fully entitled to submit a formal complaint, any physical abuse, touching, gender humiliation will all most certainly result in the suspension of authority to conduct tests, remember the examiner is aurthorised by the national authority and NOT the company, so a compliant to authority will lead to a company/authority investigation.

I would suggest that all pilots read standard doc 24 ( all EU authorities use basically the same document) the CAA (UK) are the lead authority and much of standards around the world are based on their expertise.

That things go go wrong with rostering/ crew mix is inevitable when dealing with sim planning and sometime the instructor/examiner is messed around every bit as much the guys/girls in the front.

Remember the evexaminer doesn’t fail you....you and I mean you should only fail if YOU fail to reach the required standard to excercise the privileges of your licence.

Most larger companies will have at least one “arsehole” and I’ve known people go sick rather than be checked by them, in pilot training management we see this trend very quickly, but we can’t act unless we get complaints, we can’t exactly go to said TRE and ask why pilots go sick rather than be checked with them, we should not interfere with their judgement, for that is a slippery slope, again remember the TRE authorisation is from the authority not the company.

Great post, just to add : UK CAA STANDARDS 24 (https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Standards%20Document%2024A%20Version%205.pdf)

josephfeatherweight

9th Apr 2019, 09:29

SoFarFromHome

9th Apr 2019, 09:59

Recurrent sim in small-ish bizjet. Takeoff on 12000' runway - TODR is approx 3500'. Attempt to rotate at VR to find elevator is jammed. Abort the takeoff and come to comfortable stop with at least 6000' remaining.
Sim examiner: "Are you allowed to abort after V1?"
Me: "If the aircraft doesn't fly, and I'm on a 12,000' runway, I don't go flying."
Sim examiner: "You should have rotated using the stab trim and conducted the "stuck elevator" checklist airborne."
Me: "We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one - how does that sound?"

Absolutely ridiculous!!

You are within your rights to modify or change any existing procedure or checklist as you see fit in an emergency, by stopping you just averted one.

In the aircraft I fly, a valuable discussion was had about V1 based on different flap settings.

For example, a flap 0 departure has a v1 about 10ktsi faster than a typical flap setting for departure.

if I had an engine failure or safety of flight, would I not stop safely on runway remaining having aborted above one V1, but below the higher V1 for a flap 0 departure.... of course I would.

I would have done the same as you, there’s not really much else you can do!

Nick 1

9th Apr 2019, 12:12

@EIFFS .. make a perfect sense , thank you.

macdo

9th Apr 2019, 15:58

Not a malicious TRE but a bizarre one nonetheless. Happened in one of Europe’s biggest airlines about 15 years ago:

EDI - LTN... suspicious package found. Bomb goes off - rapid depressurisation, loss of system b hydraulics and elev pitot fail. Landed at NCL and stopped on runway.

First of question of debrief - “Why did you call Mayday when a Pan would have sufficed”... I kid you not! 😂
That made me laugh, I got Day 2 of Command upgrade, Bomb Warning, Bomb goes off, depressurisation, e-descent and to top it all Fuel Percolation! Epr gauges going up and down like a one arm paper hanger! It was so stressful both of us candidates started giggling! Funny if it was the same trainer.
The other one which springs to mind is V1, rotate, engine falls off. Ecam Xmas tree :-)

Priority Club

10th Apr 2019, 13:26

Part of my Airbus command upgrade few years ago...

Crossbleed start, Cold weather ops with 'actual' de-icing and cold weather altimetry corrections, contaminated runway take off, weather avoidance and TCAS RA, autothrust become inop due EIU fault, red bomb warning in cruise, cargo door open and cabin rate climbing, explosive decompression - emergency descent, eng failure in descent, divert, hold, procedural ILS, slat/flap jam during approach, go-around, fuel imbalance, land, loss of braking, ATC advise fluid leaking from aircraft.

Engine start fault, gear not uplocked after take off - recycled ok, engine vibration & shutdown, return to land, flap fault, go-around, no radar - procedural only, hold, glideslope failure go-around, hold, VOR/DME approach, land.

Autopilot inop, V1 cut, fire not out, massive fuel leak, ILS failed on final in IMC, tight vector downwind, APU fire on final, evacuate on runway.

IDG inop with MEL, take off, cargo door open (indication only), other IDG fails, APU GEN fails, electrical emergency, loss of pressurisation, hold, divert, direct law landing.

A bit over the top but it was good going on line knowing you can deal with all this **** and have a solid system in place to stay on top of what ever comes along.

NoelEvans

10th Apr 2019, 15:02

The sim world: I had a return with a 'small' tech problem and advised (sim) ATC of the 'problem'. Some jabbering on 'R/T' during the approach between 'ATC' and a 'runway inspection vehicle'. Sent around as the vehicle had not vacated the runway in time. Debrief: "You should have declared that you required an assured landing to ensure that the runway was clear for you."

The real world: Broke off an approach due to a technical matter that needed a bit more consideration, ATC wanted to know what assistance we needed. None needed, just a slightly different landing with no adverse performance considerations at all. They said they would advise tower and they would ensure greater spacing for traffic following us. Landing was a non-event but ATC couldn't have been more helpful.

Maybe some TREs are just trying to prove that they don't really know the real world?

However, over the last couple of years I have had some of the best TREs that I've ever had with excellent training value. They do exist!

Vessbot

11th Apr 2019, 14:02

My question would be “what were the rest of his operating skills like?”. I made the comment because you appeared to have picked the one part of the check or training where it could be expected that a new pilot straigjt from flight school would be better than someone who has spent years in the right than left seat of an airliner.

How can a newcomer be expected to do a better job than someone with decades experience on the job? Something seriously doesn't add up here.

Like the guy you were talking about I have in excess of 25 years in the left seat of multicrew airliners ranging from turbo props to 737 variants. In that time I have had to deal with and manage flap failures, gear malfunctions, pressurisation issues, smoke emergencies, trim failures, numerous diversions, medical emergencies and one engine shut down in a jet. But I have never seen both flight directors fail and both autopilots fail at the same time, except once before the days of RVSM and PBN when we dispatched with an aircraft in that state to get it to maintenance. The raw data ILS, in my possibly wrong opinion, is the least likely scenario to be faced now days in the real world.

I agree that it may not the fault of the person but rather the circumstance (SOP, company culture, etc.) but it's a bizarre inversion to be talking about flying an ILS like an emergency, and weighting the risks of doing it vs. the likelihood of encountering it vs. encountering other emergencies and things like that. It's not an emergency, it's the basic task of an instrument pilot!

Not being able to fly a raw data ILS possibly shows a correct attitude to SOPs

This is insane. (And true, depending on the SOP's, but still insane.)

you shouldn’t have to practice in the aeroplane for the simulator, it’s supposed to be the other way around.

It should be neither. The task should come with the practiced ease of something done regularly by a professional. Does a bus driver worry about getting busted on a recurrent check for not stopping at a red light correctly due to lack of practice? Would it be any less than a howler to talk about a newbie bus driver handling the bus better than a grizzled old pro? (Because the newbie has recency on Toyotas and the grizzled old pro has not actually driven any vehicle, including the bus, in decades? WTF?)

It's attitudes like this that make it crystal clear that drone airliners are absolutely coming, and we are in the shaky transitory period where the hardware isn't good enough to handle every situation, but neither are we. The relay baton is being fumbled.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you on the facts of the reality we live in, I'm just nothing the absurdity that they are such. I'm in the US and at my airline the SOP is not nearly as restrictive as what I read about on here wrt. European airlines, but the everyday company culture might as well be. I see it every day too.