RAAF Dassault Falcon 7X

[Petropavlovsk]

RAAF Dassault falcon 7X A56-001 currently en-route from France to completion centre in Little Rock, USA
Replacement of Challenger 604's ?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Sssshhhhh. Quiet now.

[Slezy9]

Isn't this the worst kept secret in the world....

I'm guessing the Government doesn't want to announce a shiny new VIP transport aircraft before the election.

[triadic]

What about this one: https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/03/raaf-to-get-four-modified-gulfstream-g550s-for-electronic-warfare-support/

[TBM-Legend]

Hardly VIP..

[LeadSled]

Hardly VIP..
And not a 7X, either!!
Tootle pip!!

[ramble on]

Well if they are getting G550s for surveillance youd think it commonsense to benefit from fleet commonality with that type for VIP too.

Oh hang on.......common sense.

[chimbu warrior]

4 x G550's for 2.5 billion; some middleman has seen Australia coming and done nicely out of this.

[Global Aviator]

Hmmm 50/60mil by 4 = $$$

The surveillance gear etc is obviously the rest of the billions.

Have they seriously bought a 7X for VIP? Utter madness as said why not a G550/650ER, fleet commonality, types, yadda yadda yadda!

Great for the RAAF jockeys either way when wanting to get out, straight into a corporate gig.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_EL/W-2085

[Petropavlovsk]

There is no commonsense when Government's buy or lease aircraft; none at all.
The G550's are expensive with the equipment, but my understanding this also covers 10 year life/maintenance support and maintenance included in package. Maybe even engineers as well?
Dassault 7X to replace CL604 is a very good choice. The 7X by reading respected journals have far superior short field qualities than Global, Gulfstream products. It also give RAAFies a different 'stick' to play with, experience is good. Better still they will be able to do a 2 engine ferry for maintenance if required. The F900's prior to the Challengers were apparently problem free...

[neville_nobody]

One has to wonder what the mission profile was. How many airports do they need to fly to that the 650 doesn't get into? Basically they have surrendered common type efficiency and Non Stop Pacific coverage for the expense another type. Not to mention higher fuel burn, higher TBO etc etc
What value have they have put on the short field performance?

[junior.VH-LFA]

There’s plenty of valid reasons for selection. Air Force has done type acquisitions pretty well in the last decade.

[lucille]

Short field performance is over rated. The list of “shorter fields” which have the required minimum PCN to enable these aircraft to operate from will be not be extensive.
From memory, the 650s ACN was around 30 and the first thing you checked when going off the beaten track to pre war, colonial built runways in Africa. I’m guessing the Pacific will not be different?

[Petropavlovsk]

PCN's ? Exemptions are always available for a number of T/O and Landing's over a given period of time.
The G650 has no real country airport practicality..
As an example I think from memory and I may be wrong; the Lear 60 has the highest tyre pressure in civil use other than a B747-400ER ? and that would generally mean about a dozen or so airports in Australia would be suitable for a Lear 60. There is few of the type on the civil register and they seem to fly to aerodromes where PCN exemptions would be important...
Oddly enough, I think the RAAF do get it right in the VIP department. 5500nm range?

[ramble on]

5500nm in the back of a 7x or a G550....let me think.
Dassault make a great flying product for the front end but it’s not an intercontinental aircraft.
Ask the F/As where they store catering or rest on a 5500nm leg in a 7X.
Acquisition was done by people with no experience in either.
Dassault gave me my grey hair.
And I can smell the stink of the chemical lav after 12 hours as I type.

[neville_nobody]

​​​​​ There’s plenty of valid reasons for selection. Air Force has done type acquisitions pretty well in the last decade​​

What are the top 5 reasons for getting an extra type? Other than a free junket to France every six months for Sim Training? Or are we going to buy a sim as well?

When you already have another suitable aircraft sitting in the hanger why on earth would you go and purchase an entirely new type?

[junior.VH-LFA]

What are the top 5 reasons for getting an extra type? Other than a free junket to France every six months for Sim Training? Or are we going to buy a sim as well?

When you already have another suitable aircraft sitting in the hanger why on earth would you go and purchase an entirely new type?

what suitable type is “in the hangar?”

The challenger needs to be replaced. The G550 is an entirely different purpose specific platform, which will not share crew or facilities. The idea that somehow it would be a level of commonality is a myth.

[neville_nobody]

Other than parts, maintenance, training, cost effectiveness of simulators just to name a few.

Sure two different squadrons may operate them but I just can't understand why you would go and buy another type in the same class of aircraft. Even if ACN or TODR is an issue, how many airports are we talking about?

[ramble on]

What a wasted opportunity for taking advantage of the obvious efficiencies.

[josephfeatherweight]

5500nm in the back of a 7x or a G550....let me think.
Dassault make a great flying product for the front end but it’s not an intercontinental aircraft.
Ask the F/As where they store catering or rest on a 5500nm leg in a 7X.
Acquisition was done by people with no experience in either.
Dassault gave me my grey hair.
And I can smell the stink of the chemical lav after 12 hours as I type.

I agree with your sentiments. Personally, I reckon the 7X was a terrible decision, especially given the commitment to the G550s had already been made, and I’m not a huge fan of Gulfstreams either!
PS - does the 7X really not have a vacuum loo?

[josephfeatherweight]

The G550 is an entirely different purpose specific platform, which will not share crew or facilities. The idea that somehow it would be a level of commonality is a myth.
Junior, I reckon the sharing of crew could occur with a bit of planning and forethought - and would benefit all.
The training facilities (simulator) could definitely be shared, again with planning and forethought.
Parts/maintenance sharing would potentially be problematic as I understand the Surveillance aircraft vs VIP aircraft would be on different airworthiness/maintenance regimes - but that could have been resolved/worked around with some effort also.

[cattletruck]

Has the location of the aerial refuelling probe been finalised on the W-2085? Knowing how deep IAI go with repurposing existing frames I'm having trouble accepting the W-2085 shares much commonality with the corporate version other than the basics. Considering the high sticker price of this package deal I wouldn't be surprised if they came with a huge number of caveats on the what/when/how that can be done to them including swapping bits with more mortal G550's.

[ftrplt]

change of mind

[Global Aviator]

Is there a difference in the flight deck between the surveillance mode and standard?

I was told the RSAF guys use a corporate 550 for training.

With that in mind why could one not fly both?

[ftrplt]

change of mind

[junior.VH-LFA]

Junior, I reckon the sharing of crew could occur with a bit of planning and forethought - and would benefit all.
The training facilities (simulator) could definitely be shared, again with planning and forethought.
Parts/maintenance sharing would potentially be problematic as I understand the Surveillance aircraft vs VIP aircraft would be on different airworthiness/maintenance regimes - but that could have been resolved/worked around with some effort also.




There could be one way crew swaps. The time required to get appropriate security requirements and doctrinal stuff sorted the other way would be problematic at best.

Sim is probably the biggest aspect, to my knowledge neither A/C is getting one.

The thing with this, like everything in defence related acquisition is those that know know and won’t say a word, and those who don’t usually don’t have the information to arrive at the “right” decision.

Either way, it sure does look like a nice jet!

[pelosh]

Could be a little French gift after the purchase of a bunch of submarines....
Just to give a taste and open the door to more falcon sales....
Just a thought.....happened in the past....

[josephfeatherweight]

Could be a little French gift after the purchase of a bunch of submarines....
Just to give a taste and open the door to more falcon sales....
Just a thought.....happened in the past....
Actually, you might be on the money there - I did hear the 7Xs (well, the lease anyway...) came pretty cheap.

[Vref+5]

VIP fleet has been leased since the 80’s, an entirely different acquisition program to purchasing a platform outright. Gunnedah, Halls Creek, Hamilton VIC, some of the short strips used by 34. Another advantage of the Falcons are higher MLW vs BOW, means you can carry more fuel, payload into tight strips, especially where there is no Jet A1 available. PCN? If the government wants to come into a regional town to spend cash, do you think the council won’t issue a concession??

[A30_737_AEWC]

4 x G550's for 2.5 billion; some middleman has seen Australia coming and done nicely out of this.

The 'middleman' as you put it is the US Government FMS program and US contractors behind the design/integration of the capability on behalf of the US Government.

[LeadSled]

Actually, you might be on the money there - I did hear the 7Xs (well, the lease anyway...) came pretty cheap.


Folks,
Without "the facts", who knows.
But one thing is certain, from the pilot or engineering point of view, the 7X is an outstanding aircraft, as are its predecessors and Dassault contemporaries.
And the Dassault company is, itself, quite a fascinating story, a living testimony to its founder-- how, with brains and determination, a small independent company can survive and prosper in an era of "Big Government" and nationalisation.
Tootle pip!!

[Rudder]

When was the tender to establish best value for money or aircraft suitability?

[junior.VH-LFA]

When was the tender to establish best value for money or aircraft suitability?

https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/05/defence-completes-tender-evaluation-for-special-purpose-aircraft-managing-contractor-role/

Stop clutching at straws.

[TBM-Legend]

Its official: Three Falcon 7X to replace the CL604's third quarter on 2019 to coincide with end of CL604 leases. Good choice.

[A30_737_AEWC]

Do we know under what contract the Falcon 7Xs services are being acquired/provided ? Is it under the existing arrangement with NG ? Or is there a new contractor on the block ? Apparently Dassault offered the Falcon 7X to both contractors who were shortlisted for the ongoing/future provision of SPA/VIP aircraft services.

https://australianaviation.com.au/2018/02/dassault-falcon-touts-flexibility-of-8x-and-7x-twinjets-for-raaf-vip-fleet/

What I'm really asking is who was the preferred contractor for the award of this contract:

Replacement Special Purpose Aircraft (SPA) Transport Service - Managing Contractor
https://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=public.atm.showClosed&ATMUUID=252A231E-BFD0-8F70-BEA84007338AE512

[MustangRG]

My understanding is the two shortlisted Managing Contractors both backed away from the contract.

[Petropavlovsk]

The second RAAF Falcon 7X left France yesterday and currently overnight in India. A56-002

[patty50]

Is the falcon already up and at work? Saw CNS-SYD REGENT92 then to CBR as REGENT94 this morning.

Thought I read Q3 2019 it would be operational? Seems remarkably quick for a new type.

[d_concord]

No tender process for selection of aircraft. No best value for money process for competing aircraft. Just how it works now.

[TBM-Legend]

No tender process for selection of aircraft. No best value for money process for competing aircraft. Just how it works now.

Not so. There was a tender which included aircraft and support. The aircraft, like the Challengers and BBJ are leased. Northrop Grumman won...

[lurker999]

Is the falcon already up and at work? Saw CNS-SYD REGENT92 then to CBR as REGENT94 this morning.

Thought I read Q3 2019 it would be operational? Seems remarkably quick for a new type.

the first of the 7Xs has been operational for some time. The second one will likely enter operational status pretty much as soon as it arrives.

[d_concord]

Not so. There was a tender which included aircraft and support. The aircraft, like the Challengers and BBJ are leased. Northrop Grumman won...


Thats not correct TBM. The tender was for a managing contractor. As part of that process there was an analysis required of the various aircraft solutions amongst other things. Not a tender for the supply of aircraft. That did not take place.

Northrop did not win at all. There was a two step process which shortlisted a couple of companies. Northrop were in fact knocked out in the first round.

[TBM-Legend]

It appears to me that Northrop Grumman has the contract you said they were eliminated from:

The Royal Australian Air Force has selected Northrop Grumman for an A$84 million ($59 million), six-year support package for its special purpose aircraft fleet used to transport VIPs.

Under the package, Northrop will provide logistics, maintenance, engineering, and support for the fleet, which is comprises a pair of Boeing Business Jets 737s as well as three Bombardier Challenger CL604s, which are being replaced by three Dassault Falcon 7Xs.

The company will also support an Airbus Defence & Space A330 Multi-role Tanker Transport (MRTT) specially equipped for VIP use that will arrive later this year. The A330 MRTT is designated as the KC-30A in Australian service.

[d_concord]

It appears to me that Northrop Grumman has the contract you said they were eliminated from:

Not doubting they are doing it TBM. I know for a fact (not rumour) that they did not win the tender that was run for the managing contractor and two other companies were shortlisted.

They also did not win a tender for the six year period mentioned in your post, so assume there was some provision in the current contract for an extension .

What is certain though is that there was no competitive tender for the supply of aircraft which probably cost circa $150M. Whether they got the right aircraft is certainly open for debate. That there was no tender for supply of aircraft is not.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
One thing in the 7X favour, that I have not seen mentioned, is the fact that it is the only aircraft in the class which is a tri-jet, with all that implies for EDTO (and, if the very rare event occurred, a two-engine ferry)
And these are really good aircraft, and sometimes selection is based on other than cheapest available. Airline economics it ain't.
If I was a Commonwealth politician, I would be very happy with the choice.
As a taxpayer, the difference with comparable aircraft is chickenfeed
I can still remember the veritable explosions following Big Mal Frazer's BAC 111 having an engine failure in the middle of the Tasman.
I know the B737 is a "twin", and of course I know all the stats., but I also know a lot of pollies ---- for those wot can afford it, it is why an A-340 is a popular aircraft with lesser heads of state --- at least "common sense" here avoided going down that path, years ago.
Tootle pip!!

[TBM-Legend]

I know for a fact (not rumour) that they did not win the tender that was run for the managing contractor and two other companies were shortlisted.

My quote is from a RAAF press release. Not sure you can get closer than that.

The Falcon 7X is the perfect aircraft with, as mentioned, three engine overwater and two engine ferry if required. It has very long legs and excellent short field performance for its class. The 7X is proven in this field too...

This also from RAAF:New Dassault Falcon 7x Special Purpose Aircraft Arrive

16 April 2019

The first of the Royal Australian Air Force’s (RAAF) new Dassault Falcon 7X aircraft arrived in Canberra today.

The new aircraft, being leased by RAAF, replace the Bombardier CL604 Challengers and provide a larger passenger load, modern communication and increased range and endurance.

Wing Commander Jason Pont, Commanding Officer of 34 Squadron said the Falcon complements RAAF’s larger Boeing 737 Business Jets.

“The Falcon 7X is an advanced business jet designed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation,” Wing Commander Pont said.

“The jet has a standard crew of three (pilot, co-pilot and crew attendant) and can carry up to 14 passengers.

“With a maximum operating speed of Mach 0.9 and a range of up to 11,000 km, the aircraft can fly from Canberra to anywhere in the world with only one stop. Its ability to land at almost any airfield provides notable regional and remote airfield accessibility.”

The Falcon features a high-tech wing, an advanced ‘glass cockpit' with a heads-up display and an infrared enhanced vision system. It also has satellite communications to support Government business while airborne.

The aircraft will be operated by Number 34 Squadron as part of the Special Purpose Aircraft fleet, based at Defence Establishment Fairbairn in the Australian Capital Territory.

The fleet will continue to be maintained by Northrop Grumman.

Images

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Media contacts

Issued by Ministerial and Executive Coordination and Communication,
Department of Defence,
Canberra, ACT
Phone: 02 6127 1999 Fax: 02 6265 6946

[d_concord]

My quote is from a RAAF press release. Not sure you can get closer than that.

The Falcon 7X is the perfect aircraft with, as mentioned, three engine overwater and two engine ferry if required. It has very long legs and excellent short field performance for its class. The 7X is proven in this field too...

This also from RAAF:New Dassault Falcon 7x Special Purpose Aircraft Arrive

16 April 2019

The first of the Royal Australian Air Force’s (RAAF) new Dassault Falcon 7X aircraft arrived in Canberra today.

The new aircraft, being leased by RAAF, replace the Bombardier CL604 Challengers and provide a larger passenger load, modern communication and increased range and endurance.

Wing Commander Jason Pont, Commanding Officer of 34 Squadron said the Falcon complements RAAF’s larger Boeing 737 Business Jets.

“The Falcon 7X is an advanced business jet designed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation,” Wing Commander Pont said.

“The jet has a standard crew of three (pilot, co-pilot and crew attendant) and can carry up to 14 passengers.

“With a maximum operating speed of Mach 0.9 and a range of up to 11,000 km, the aircraft can fly from Canberra to anywhere in the world with only one stop. Its ability to land at almost any airfield provides notable regional and remote airfield accessibility.”

The Falcon features a high-tech wing, an advanced ‘glass cockpit' with a heads-up display and an infrared enhanced vision system. It also has satellite communications to support Government business while airborne.

The aircraft will be operated by Number 34 Squadron as part of the Special Purpose Aircraft fleet, based at Defence Establishment Fairbairn in the Australian Capital Territory.

The fleet will continue to be maintained by Northrop Grumman.

Images

Images will be available from https://images.defence.gov.au (https://images.defence.gov.au/)



Media contacts

Issued by Ministerial and Executive Coordination and Communication,
Department of Defence,
Canberra, ACT
Phone: 02 6127 1999 Fax: 02 6265 6946


TBM,

Nothing here says Northrop won a tender or that the aircraft procurement was subject to a tender. In both cases they weren't . I am not questioning that Northrop have a six year contract to do the maintenance but it was not as result of the managing contract tender.

[TBM-Legend]

DEFENCE COMPLETES TENDER EVALUATION FOR SPECIAL PURPOSE AIRCRAFT MANAGING CONTRACTOR ROLEwritten by Robert Nutbrown (https://australianaviation.com.au/author/rnutbrown/) May 5, 2017https://australianaviation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20070621raaf8185933_0119.jpg (https://australianaviation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20070621raaf8185933_0119.jpg)As part of a plan to replace the VIP transport service operated by the Royal Australian Air Force from mid-2019, Defence has confirmed that it intends to enter into contract negotiations with a preferred tenderer for the role of managing contractor, having completed a tender evaluation process.

The managing contractor will manage the establishment, delivery and long-term sustainment of the new service on behalf of the Commonwealth.

“Defence is actively working with industry through a competitive, staged procurement process to develop considered options for the Special Purpose Aircraft fleet beyond current contract expiry in mid-2019,” a spokesperson for Defence told sister publication Australian Defence Business Review (http://adbr.com.au/defence-completes-tender-evaluation-for-special-purpose-aircraft-managing-contractor-role/) on May 4.

“Defence intends to present a range of potential options to Government for consideration, including revised support services and considerations for potential fleet replacement in the future.”

In November 2015, Defence released a request for proposal (RFP) seeking a managing contractor to provide services for the maintenance, support and replacement of the Special Purpose Aircraft (SPA) fleet.

The purpose of the RFP, which closed in February 2016, was to identify and assess the feasibility, risk, affordability, value and overall suitability of the range of available capability options and managing contractor methodologies.

Defence undertook an evaluation, and two companies were shortlisted from the RFP respondents in June 2016.

In August 2016, Defence initiated a project definition study to engage with the shortlisted respondents to collaboratively finalise contract requirements and develop a request for tender (RFT).

The RFT was then released to the two shortlisted companies in December 2016, and in February this year the industry respondents tabled their tenders to Defence.

“This tendering activity does not in itself constrain Government consideration to a replacement Special Purpose Aircraft fleet mix – including aircraft type – or when replacement is to occur,” the Defence spokesperson said.

Meanwhile, Defence stated that it has exercised options to extend the current SPA maintenance and support arrangement with Northrop Grumman Integrated Defence Services (IDS) until September 2019 to align with the lease terms of the current fleet.

Northrop Grumman IDS (previously Qantas Defence Services) has since 2001 delivered through-life support to 34 Squadron at Defence Establishment Fairbairn, which operates the current SPA fleet of two Boeing Business Jets (BBJs) and three Bombardier Challenger 604s. All five aircraft, which are leased rather than Commonwealth-owned, entered service in 2002. They are still relatively young aircraft in terms of flying hours, with the fleet recently passing the 50,000 flying hour milestone (https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/04/50000-hour-milestone-for-raaf-vip-fleet/).

Separate to the SPA process the RAAF’s VIP capabilities are also set to bolstered with the delivery of a KC-30A Multi Role Tanker Transport modified to support long-range government VIP transport needs (https://australianaviation.com.au/2016/10/raaf-kc-30-tanker-to-be-modified-for-vip-transport/). It is due for delivery in late 2019.

[LeadSled]

TBM-Legend,
Great posts, even if a few around us believe we live in the post-factual era.
My exposure to Dassault Aviation aircraft is somewhat limited, but that experience tells me that they are a "cut -above" most of the competition, some advanced aerodynamic characteristics being part and parcel of that experience.
Tootle pip!!

[ftrplt]

The Managing Contractor tender/evaluation was separate to and somewhat ahead of the replacement project.

The intent of the Managing Contractor was to effectively take up the role of CASG and do complete capability management for the Commonwealth (ownership function). For reasons I am not aware, this proposal was not adopted, the Commonwealth remains the manager of the SPA capability (CASG).

NGA is the contracted provider of engineering, maintenance and logistics sustainment of the capability. NGA is contracted by CASG for this capability - this arrangement would have occurred under the Managing Contractor if the above proposal was adopted.

The replacement/extension of the aircraft to provide the capability (604 and BBJ was looked at) was conducted as an Air Force project. Various options were looked at.

[Petropavlovsk]

I mentioned two engine ferry when I started the thread, it's a valuable consideration. Not that it would be an everyday occurring event, EFATO off runway 34 at Canberra, night departure out of Port Moresby, Fiji, to name a few; two remaining engines would be comfortable. Two engine ferry a good option.
The maintenance etc, awarded to Northrop Grumman Australia; ? why change a good thing? successful company, procedures, security checked staff.
Maintaining the FA7X, and BBJ's at Canberra, but where is the RAAF fleet of B737 Wedgetail and B737 Poseidon maintained. Are these done by QF in Australia or farmed out to a off shore MRO?
Who will be maintaining the Gulfstream G550 spy planes when they arrive?

[Office Update]

The first of the RAAF Challengers has left the fleet. A37-001 is now VH-OFA

[Pearly White]

UPDATE ? RAAF confirms Falcon 7X lease for VIP SPA fleet ? ADBR (http://adbr.com.au/raaf-confirms-falcon-7x-lease-for-vip-spa-fleet/)