Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp

[chance]

Any news/rumours on the progress of construction and arrangements for the new Qantas Group Pilot Academy at Wellcamp, Toowoomba in conjunction with L3 Commercial Aviation?
The second academy site appears not to have been named at this stage.

[Capn Bloggs]

Plenty of news here:

https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/608601-launy-qf-training-school-9.html#post10426456

[chance]

Plenty of news here:

https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/608601-launy-qf-training-school-9.html#post10426456

Thanks for that. Not very good but like much these days in GA things tend to end in tears.

[roundsounds]

Pretty sure L3 have walked away

[Checklist Charlie]

Pretty sure L3 have walked away
More than likely they ran.

CC

[cmcmon]

From the Qantas web site today

Qantas has appointed Flight Training Adelaide (FTA) as the training provider for the Toowoomba site.

[BuzzBox]

The Qantas Group Pilot Academy FAQs state:

4. If I successfully graduate from the Academy will I be guaranteed a job at Qantas?
No. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent selection pool...

That seems quite different to the current Virgin scheme, where, if I'm not mistaken, cadets are paid a salary during the course, are 'guaranteed' a job if they pass, and are then bonded to the airline for a period of three years.

Have I got that right?

[machtuk]

Christ I hope BDG doesn't end up a training site, it's a painful place now as it is with the yellow perils doing jet circuits & QF already going there!

[dr dre]

The Qantas Group Pilot Academy FAQs state:
That seems quite different to the current Virgin scheme, where, if I'm not mistaken, cadets are paid a salary during the course, are 'guaranteed' a job if they pass, and are then bonded to the airline for a period of three years.

Have I got that right?

With previous cadetships, jobs weren’t “guaranteed” but it was assumed that if you passed the course to a high standard, didn’t prove yourself to be a knob on the course and the company was recruiting when you graduated that you would be would be on hold for a start date.

With this new program it’s quite vague. There’s little concrete info about what happens on completion of the program. As the first course won’t graduate until the end of next year they still have time to define a more accurate pathway regarding what happens upon graduation.

[machtuk]

Your first line is spot on, as for the rest? Well yes as you mentioned you do have a drinking problem...lolol

[neville_nobody]

​​​​​ With previous cadetships, jobs weren’t “guaranteed” but it was assumed that if you passed the course to a high standard, didn’t prove yourself to be a knob on the course and the company was recruiting when you graduated that you would be would be on hold for a start date.​​

Until they stopped hiring then made people who had then spent a reasonable time in industry placement reapply for their QF job, and then to be found unsuitable.

You really have to wonder why anyone would take the risk on a QF cadetship. Hardly the best value for money flight training going around.

[LTBC]

FTA also train Virgin cadets:

All Cadets are employed directly by Virgin Australia and paid a competitive remuneration package for the duration of the Cadet Training Program. This remuneration package is to assist with FTA accommodation and food costs. Our Cadets will also have access to benefits which include access to the Virgin Australia staff travel program and assistance with obtaining your Commercial Pilot’s Licence.

Following successful completion of the Cadet Training Program and meeting all the requirements of the role, you will be offered a permanent role within the Virgin Australia group and will be employed under the applicable pilots’ agreement.

With zero progression to Qantas or Jetstar and only vague prospects with QLink the QGPA doesn't offer much

[tio540]

From the Qantas web site today

Qantas has appointed Flight Training Adelaide (FTA) as the training provider for the Toowoomba site.

ROFL APMS!!!!!

[Icarus2001]

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/05/qantas-partners-with-flight-training-adelaide-for-wellcamp-academy/

Capacity of 250 cadets per year. Original plan talked up eventual capacity of 500 per year.

So, someone check my numbers here. Say 200 cadets doing 150 CPL course initially. That is 30,000 hours. Over one third of which are solo hours but for those an instructor is "supervising" on the ground or contactable by electronic means. They are going to need a lot of instructors.

[Ixixly]

"“After graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s pilot talent pool and have access to opportunities with other partners which will help fast track placement in the aviation industry,” Qantas said." Read to me as no direct employment afterwards and a need to go out and gain actual hours somewhere before being able to come back in a GA industry that is being strangled by CASA. I'm pretty sure I've heard this one before, I believe Griffith University had a partnership a while ago with Qantas, Students were interviewed, placed in the "Talent Pool" then told to go out and gain a thousand hours before they were qualified and from memory not a lot of those Pilots ended up actually getting in for various reasons.

As Icarus said, that's a lot of instructors as well, though I think Icarus is a bit light on the numbers, 150hr CPL course, they need ME-IR as well, even with a really well integrated course I'd day say closer to 170hrs on average times 250 students, 2/3 solo 28,050hrs means at least 50 instructors though more like 60 to allow some fat in the system? Has anyone seen any advertisements for the providers looking to increase their numbers?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for something like this, I've long wondered by Qantas and others haven't tried to set this up to have more control over numbers and quality coming in but this feels like more smoke and mirrors to me.

[Rated De]

"“After graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s pilot talent pool and have access to opportunities with other partners which will help fast track placement in the aviation industry,” Qantas said." Read to me as no direct employment afterwards and a need to go out and gain actual hours somewhere before being able to come back in a GA industry that is being strangled by CASA. I'm pretty sure I've heard this one before, I believe Griffith University had a partnership a while ago with Qantas, Students were interviewed, placed in the "Talent Pool" then told to go out and gain a thousand hours before they were qualified and from memory not a lot of those Pilots ended up actually getting in for various reasons.

As Icarus said, that's a lot of instructors as well, though I think Icarus is a bit light on the numbers, 150hr CPL course, they need ME-IR as well, even with a really well integrated course I'd day say closer to 170hrs on average times 250 students, 2/3 solo 28,050hrs means at least 50 instructors though more like 60 to allow some fat in the system? Has anyone seen any advertisements for the providers looking to increase their numbers?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for something like this, I've long wondered by Qantas and others haven't tried to set this up to have more control over numbers and quality coming in but this feels like more smoke and mirrors to me.



Caveat Emptor.

No doubt the glossy brochure has an A380 with gender fluid new hire endorsing the product.
The small print will tell a different story, flung to a 'subsidiary' at a non-market IR driven rate, with much accumulated debt over one's head.

[Rated De]

A glossy brochure suggesting one thing, for the fine print to deliver another is an abuse. It is deemed misleading and deceptive conduct.
Therefore, 'applicants' ought consider carefully the fine print before deciding.

To give them a job at Qlink ,likely flying a Q400 upon graduation

Are you sure the fine print stipulates they actually gained paid employment or merely access to 'talent pool' ?

[tbfka]

Imagine that , it's just so so terrible

What a terrible abuse of our precious young people

To give them a job at Qlink ,likely flying a Q400 upon graduation

After 18 months they will only be grossing $95 to $115K , getting staff travel , be able to put in EOIs to join mainline

This is reprehensible treatment of young Australians , totally used and abused and we as Australians ought to hang our heads in shame

Imagine that having the gall to employ people who hold the uber high qualification of a "year 12" and they have done an entire 54 of training

& we are only going to pay $100,000

There will be riots in the streets when the public gets wind of this outrageous treatment of young Australians by a horrible mean corporation

Why do you have this idea that students are guaranteed jobs at the completion of the course? Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if successful students of a particular gender ended up with jobs, the FAQ's makes it clear there's no such promise, only that students are placed into the talent pool alongside those that are already there.

[neville_nobody]

​​ Imagine that , it's just so so terrible

What a terrible abuse of our precious young people

To give them a job at Qlink ,likely flying a Q400 upon graduation

After 18 months they will only be grossing $95 to $115K , getting staff travel , be able to put in EOIs to join mainline

This is reprehensible treatment of young Australians , totally used and abused and we as Australians ought to hang our heads in shame

Imagine that having the gall to employ people who hold the uber high qualification of a "year 12" and they have done an entire 54 of training

& we are only going to pay $100,000​​

If you go and read the FAQs from the QANTAS website you will realise that your post is a complete fantasy.

So-called cadets will just pay alot for flying training and be looking for a gig in GA with everybody else. You would be more competitive going to uni, doing flying training elsewhere, and doing GA, than being taken to the cleaners by this mob.

[roundsounds]

The greater risk here is the damage to the flying schools who would normally have trained the 250 / year students.

[Rated De]

In some ways,it is this sort of behaviour by airlines, is indicative of the genesis of the problem; Labour relations.

A transparent and upfront program may help to address what is a growing and increasing issue, but this is not it.

[thorn bird]

Do the "cadets" have access to HEC's.? Maybe the Irishman see's the academy as a profit centre.

[Rated De]

Do the "cadets" have access to HEC's.? Maybe the Irishman see's the academy as a profit centre.

Chairman's lounge memberships, upgrades and soft corruption couldn't quite deliver AUD$ 3billion of taxpayer assistance in CY13, so why not try another angle.
Could be a nice expansion for the value adding 'inclusivity and diversity management' Empire building being what it is, diversity training and inclusivity for the newly 'indentured' cadets could deliver substantial empire building benefits. A nice distraction from actually doing something and a bit of corporate welfare to boot.

[machtuk]

Chairman's lounge memberships, upgrades and soft corruption couldn't quite deliver AUD$ 3billion of taxpayer assistance in CY13, so why not try another angle.
Could be a nice expansion for the value adding 'inclusivity and diversity management' Empire building being what it is, diversity training and inclusivity for the newly 'indentured' cadets could deliver substantial empire building benefits. A nice distraction from actually doing something and a bit of corporate welfare to boot.

SPOT ON RD!:-( Some seem to forget the sick little Leprechaun isn't there to make people happy he's there to empire build, make money for himself & as a by product for the SkyGods themselves:-) He's very cunning that's why he's still there !

[LeadSled]

Do the "cadets" have access to HEC's.? Maybe the Irishman see's the academy as a profit centre.
Thorn bird,
Yes and yes. The latter a matter of public record.
Tootle pip!!

[AviationReviewWA]

Whole academy seems pretty useless if there is no "guaranteed employment upon successful completion". That would be the whole purpose of training with a Qantas program. The skippers aviation cadetship that MFS run even seems like a better option when compared to this. :eek:

[plotplot]

Can someone direct me to somewhere where the word "cadet" is even mentioned?

Seems like a lot of assuming going on where QF ever said that they would be training pilots specifically to fill their own seats. And seems more like QF are just sticking their fingers in the training pie. The students wouldn't even come out with trainee first officer mins.

250-500 students shelling out $100,000+ each in Fee HELP - and you can be sure the gov't pays their bills on time - equals a lot of zeros.. of the 22,000 who have registered interest I'd say 21,900 are expecting a job at the end of it.

[LeadSled]

Whole academy seems pretty useless if there is no "guaranteed employment upon successful completion". That would be the whole purpose of training with a Qantas program. The skippers aviation cadetship that MFS run even seems like a better option when compared to this. :eek:
ARWA,
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it??
Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation.
Tootle pip!!

[AviationReviewWA]

ARWA,
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it??
Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation.
Tootle pip!!
You make a good point. If they can make money out of ignorant students without having to offer a job at the end of it, then they will do that.

[Rated De]

ARWA,
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it??
Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation.
Tootle pip!!

They won't until such time, having exhausted all other options they admit to themselves the shortage is real.
Here, British Airways among other airlines have no problem ensuring a career path for the graduates from their program.

[neville_nobody]

ARWA,
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it??
Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation.
Tootle pip!!

However in those days QF paid for the training, in which case the student is still better off even if QF knocked them back. Nowadays the student is risking circa 120k+ with no promise of anything.

[Icarus2001]

Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it?? My bolding. That remains to be seen doesn't it.

[LeadSled]

My bolding. That remains to be seen doesn't it.
Certainly does.
In fact, most Qantas "cadet" graduates were offered job, the exception being, in at least one economic downturn, when all pilot recruiting stopped ---- but all were subsequently offered jobs.
Just no "cast iron guarantee".
Tootle pip!!

[Vag277]

Why do people expect a guaranteed job at the end of the course? No university course does that once the degree is completed and costs over a 4 year degree will, in total for a "real degree", be as much with no guarantee from anyone? Does aviation suffer from an "entitlement" mind set?

[Icarus2001]

Costs for a degree are not dissimilar, I agree. What is different is that flying is pay as you go generally. The degree does not have to be paid for until you are gainfully employed and earning over a certain threshold.

They are being called cadets for want of a better term, potential pilots, student pilots, pilots in training, take your pick.

I just cannot see them attracting anywhere near 250 a year, not even half that. The "expression of interest" that the QF PR machine keeps quoting was easily explained. You could cut that number in half immediately as people with a vague interest in being a pilot and their only commitment was to supply an email address.

[Rated De]

I just cannot see them attracting anywhere near 250 a year, not even half that. The "expression of interest" that the QF PR machine keeps quoting was easily explained. You could cut that number in half immediately as people with a vague interest in being a pilot and their only commitment was to supply an email address.

Precisely.
Is a fourteen year old school kid an 'applicant' having expressed an interest?

[BuzzBox]

Costs for a degree are not dissimilar, I agree. What is different is that flying is pay as you go generally. The degree does not have to be paid for until you are gainfully employed and earning over a certain threshold.

They are being called cadets for want of a better term, potential pilots, student pilots, pilots in training, take your pick.

Most cadets would be eligible for a VET Student Loan to cover the cost of training, similar to the HECS-HELP/FEE-HELP schemes that are available for uni students. As of 1 July, the income threshold and rate of repayment for all the government schemes will be the same. The current loan cap is $104,440, but the last Federal budget made provision for the cap to be increased to $150,000 for aviation courses from January 2020, the same as medicine, dentistry and vet science.

[AviationReviewWA]

Why do people expect a guaranteed job at the end of the course? No university course does that once the degree is completed and costs over a 4 year degree will, in total for a "real degree", be as much with no guarantee from anyone? Does aviation suffer from an "entitlement" mind set?
In WA anyway, uni costs about 10 grand a year and when you have a degree you can gain employment in a multitude of roles. With a course like this, you pay 150k to be able to perform one role.

[JRumm]

Hi all, wondering if anyone has been through the selection day at the Toowomba site? Any info on the structure of the day and specifics on phase 1. Computer-based testing (CBT), Phase 2. CBT Assessment, Pilot Aptitude Assessment (PILAPT) and Interview and the Flying aptitude testing Phase? I do have the email correspondence from QG so it is more of the 1st hand experience I am seeking?
Thanks in advance.

[PROB30TEMPOSSUCK]

Capacity of 250 cadets per year. Original plan talked up eventual capacity of 500 per year.

So, someone check my numbers here. Say 200 cadets doing 150 CPL course initially. That is 30,000 hours. Over one third of which are solo hours but for those an instructor is "supervising" on the ground or contactable by electronic means. They are going to need a lot of instructors.

Pretty late to thread, made an account just for it. As someone that studied at QGPA, I can confirm there is no chance they can hold that many students. Currently, the most courses they run at any given time is 8 or 9, with these course ranging from as low as 7 students to the largest being around 20. Even if all course had 20, thats still only 180. Theres a few reasons why they cant have much more than that, and definitely not near the 500 capacity that was originally planned:
- Theres only 5 class rooms, and only 2 of those can hold classes of more then 15-20ish people.
- They dont have the aircraft... There were multiple days where flights would be cancelled just due to the lack of aircraft, and theres not much room to put any new aircraft. I believe we only have 5 or 6 ME aircraft as well, so having more people would basically hault MEA and MECIR
- Weather: Toowoomba definitely does not get 300 days of good weather a year. Winters are wet and rainy, and summers are full of storms. Every course has numerous that fall behind due to it and aircraft availability, with the most recent course only having 15% of the cohort making CPL on time.
- Instructors: They're extremely short staffed in QFI's, with more/most leaving in the near future.
- Accomodation: Although they say you don't need to live on campus, It's pretty much drilled into you that you should. The closest houses are 20-30 minutes drive. And the current campus only hold 144 people, with more houses being built bringing it to 228. Currently like 90% of students live on campus.

As for other posts regarding Qantas and the jobs and stuff, yeah, its pretty vague. Nothing's gauranteed. All the QGPA does is get you direct entry into the Qantas Future Pilot Program unlike people at other universities which have to apply. QFPP consists of 5 modules, with team meetings at each one, followed by quizes/assessments for each one. You get a mentor too, but thats about it. Once you finish all the modules, if you have over 80%, you can continue on to a meeting with QFPP, once you pass that you do a medical and some simulator assessments. Once you pass that you go onto the hold file for Qlink. But all of that can also be achieved at any one of the approved QFPP universities, you just need to apply, its the only difference. Apparently there are talks of creating another Flight instructor pathway, which would consist of students getting their FIR after they graduate, then Instructing at FTA for a minimum amount of time (Unknown how long yet), before being moved to Jetstar on the 787 as an SO, but thats still just rumors.

I only picked QGPA because it was quicker then other courses and I could still put it on HECS. Uni courses are all 2 years for an Associates Degree, while this is only 13 months, and you skip all the random university subjects that get added on. Overall though I really wouldn't say its world class training or anything like they like to say. There's alot of management issues and random trash that goes on. There would definitely be better programs out there.

[BEVLY9]

Why aren't they picking these students who are supposedly trained to their standards and who have made a $130,000 commitment to the company?

These students made a $130,000 commitment to the Australian government. It’s not a cadetship in the traditional sense

[Going Nowhere]

Because JQ run their own program.

[tictac123]

The refueller tells me there's a handful of QFPP graduates about to start at Jetstar as F/Os on the A320, with whatever handful of hours they have at the end of the program.

[Ollie Onion]

The refueller tells me there's a handful of QFPP graduates about to start at Jetstar as F/Os on the A320, with whatever handful of hours they have at the end of the program.

why hate on the cadets, the rest of the world has used low hour cadets for decades. Welcome to the modern world Australia!

[megan]

why hate on the cadets, the rest of the world has used low hour cadets for decadesLufthansa and British Airways being notable practitioners with their respective schools in the USA (50 years) and Hamble (1960 - 1982), nothing new as Ollie says..

[dctPub]

why hate on the cadets, the rest of the world has used low hour cadets for decades. Welcome to the modern world Australia!


I dunno Ollie, maybe compare the conditions between the US and Europe? One has an inexhaustible supply of cadets, the other does not.

[jackyboi]

Take CAUTION when thinking of getting trained here. I have many colleagues who are on the active hold who haven't gone anywhere in over a year. They graduate a new course every 5 weeks and overall hundreds get added to this "active hold file" many not going anywhere. It is just a marketing tool (over promising, knowing they'll never hire) for FTA to pump sausages out. The theme is that ex students who only graduated within months before, teach the next wave of students. It is hard for FTA students to get jobs within the GA industry as operators know they are on the active hold and unlikely to hire them due to experience in a diamond. You end up with a $135,000ish HECS with terrible prospects. Son or daughters of qantas pilots get unfavoured treatment during hiring process, with their parents sneaking them in for simulator sessions on the exact simulator they do the actual recruitment process in. So its an unfair assessment. If you are a child of a qantas group pilot though not that bad of an option as they get pulled off the active hold by internal politics and phone calls between staff and recruitment even if they have lower assessment criteria than others. 2 of my friends made the active hold one a qantas child with lower assessment results and flight training/exam results than the non qantas child, and the qantas child got pulled in immediately.

I tried building hours with a GA operator but couldn't hack the disrespect and lack of appreciation for hard work in the industry. Went back to IT earning as much as a mainline FO with a much better lifestyle, less stress and flying as a hobby instead. If you really want to pursue it, I'd recommend going to a smaller flight school, who take the time with you, you are able to network with GA operators at the same time. Possibly flight schools that are combined with a charter company. Get an older instructor who has spent years in a GA and actually teaches you the commercial side of things.

[runway16]

Loan from the government! Wrong. It is the government giving out a load using Taxpayer money. MY money!
Flight schools are money hungry and that spin about get a flying job straight after getting the CPL and then pay back the loan is absolute BS!
Try and get a car loan or a house loan and see what happens.

'So son you have a loan of $150K hanging over your head?' 'Next please and close the door on your way out'.

I am of the view that we have too many CPLs being trained each year compared to the number of flying jobs available. But those who do not get a job and or took up a VET FEE loan still have to repay my taxpayer money. Those that get a job will typically will not be pulling $150K in the first or second oi third year of being a paid CPL. And they still have to get that payback mill stone from around their neck as their years slip by.

R

[dr dre]

Take CAUTION when thinking of getting trained here.They graduate a new course every 5 weeks and overall hundreds get added to this "active hold file" many not going anywhere.

Most of the latest grads are either headed to Qlink or JQ. The rest are being employed either as instructors or GA placements. It was a bit hit and miss at the start, but it has gotten better.


It is just a marketing tool (over promising, knowing they'll never hire) for FTA to pump sausages out.

I never understand the hate against ‘sausage factories’. Airlines don’t want 101 non-standardised trainees each doing things their own way, they want people all raised with the same skills and mindset and adherence to SOPs, at an institution where they have access to your training records and can monitor your progress on both technical and non technical skills.

2 of my friends made the active hold one a qantas child with lower assessment results and flight training/exam results than the non qantas child, and the qantas child got pulled in immediately.

How did you gain access to recruiter’s assessment scoring for multiple candidates which is always kept strictly confidential?

l

I tried building hours with a GA operator but couldn't hack the disrespect and lack of appreciation for hard work in the industry.

So why not aim for a course where you have a much higher chance of getting straight into an airline in the first place?

[morno]

I don’t hold much hope for Jacky Boi’s career in this industry if that’s his/her/them/its attitude at the very beginning.

Disrespect in GA? Hahahaha, welcome mate.

What about the disrespect you’ve shown to the candidates who were fortunate enough to get into QLink or similar that you’re now hanging **** on because of your perceptions about their recruitment?

[jackyboi]

For the opinions above. I agree with RWY16's comments, I have already paid off 2/3 off my debt I paid in lump sum payments to quickly reduce debt to enable greater borrowing power for business and personal loans for opportunities im currently pursuing.

To answer Dr Dre that's good to hear that it has gotten better. I was only of the earlier groups. I have heard a lot of personal stories from others there who struggled to get jobs that wasn't the case for me very fortunately in GA, so I am grateful for that. Caused a bit of stress for fellows friends who were in the same course. You make a good point about sausage factories I agree airlines would like that. But I mean in terms of going to GA after graduating from a factory, I'd rather be taught from someone older with a lot more experience having thousands of hours in GA (I do understand that its hard to find these people and they aren't as readily available obviously), just if I were to choose a different option that's what I'd look for. I didn't have access to qantas recruiting staff criteria and results, but we all had access to everyones training results in our course, that was very transparent, instructors/teachers brought those up in front of us multiple times and its very easy to see where everyone ranks. In terms of the actual HR stuff from qantas though of course they keep it confidential but talking amongst the group to all the friends in the course, you hear how people performed in sims and their interview and it was clearly below yours or others and they still got ahead. Im not saying it's just me, but there were others in my course who didn't make it and felt the same way after everyone shared their experiences. Your last point yeah I should have done more research prior and I'm sure you can target courses with a much higher chance or guaranteed job. I would most likely go for those cadetships where you have a guaranteed job with a GA company after your training.

For morno - Im not hanging **** on any candidates, we were all very close basically a family for year. We were all very close and transparent. I'm still really good friends with the majority of my course and a lot of them who went on to subsidiaries,I have nothing against them and commend them. I know a lot of them were much more smarter and quality candidates than me and I don't fault anyone but myself. I was trying to give a perspective from the inside, as I feel as though the academy is very glamorised, and just to know that you are a customer when you go there and not to forget it. I love flying and I continue to fly privately at the moment fairly often. You're right maybe I'm not cut out to be in the airline industry. But after working GA for nearly 2 years I understand what it's like now and the truths or realities of the industry. Im not sure why you're laughing at me for bringing up disrespect in GA. Do you not think you should be respected when you go to work, and I don't mean treated like a god, I mean treated like a human, respected, spoken to with decency, not micromanaged all the time, not appreciated for extra effort you put into work that goes above and beyond your job. You may laugh, but you don't want to be the one building someone else's empire and getting underpaid and treated terribly for hard effort. Spending years to work your way up to a small airline as a first officer and still get paid basically the same as a tradie. Judging by your join date im assuming you may already be in the airlines and that's great, but people fail to mention the grind to get where you get. The low pay and underappreciation with the responsibility and stress you have in GA is not worth getting paid the award or near it, where cleaners are making more than you an hour. I understand you have to start small and grind to move up, but I wanted to give my perspective in that I personally don't think it's worth it. All the time away from family, poor pay, extra study you need to put it beyond work hours, wasting your youth. When you can build a business, earn the money that gives you a comfortable sufficient lifestyle and fly privately if that is your passion. I was not trying to be aggressive in my first post. But yes I do agree I think my friends which I love who I met in GA they are a lot tougher than me, they have a different mindset, they are happy to sacrifice a lot for what they want to achieve in. their career, I totally understand that. But for me I'm not willing to sacrifice reduce pay, which means I can't start compounding that until later in life, being away from friends and family for so long.

[dr dre]

You make a good point about sausage factories I agree airlines would like that. But I mean in terms of going to GA after graduating from a factory, I'd rather be taught from someone older with a lot more experience having thousands of hours in GA (I do understand that its hard to find these people and they aren't as readily available obviously), just if I were to choose a different option that's what I'd look for.

If someone wants a career in GA after graduating initial flight school then I’d say to them go learn at a GA oriented school not an airline academy.

The ability to effectively teach is really independent of experience or background. I’ve seen instructors with 1,000s of hours of GA experience attempt to teach and they don’t get through to the student, nor are they teaching for the right reasons.

but talking amongst the group to all the friends in the course, you hear how people performed in sims and their interview and it was clearly below yours or others and they still got ahead.

I wouldn’t take someone’s personal assessment of a sim check or an interview as a definite conclusion on how they performed. I’ve spoken to people who said they didn’t think they performed well in a sim ride or interview - then got the job. And those who said they aced the sim ride or interview - and didn’t get the job. Maybe people who did well were harsh on themselves, and people who did poorly refused to accept they had done anything wrong. It’s only HR and the recruiting team who see the full picture of how someone has performed in the recruitment process.



Your last point yeah I should have done more research prior and I'm sure you can target courses with a much higher chance or guaranteed job. I would most likely go for those cadetships where you have a guaranteed job with a GA company after your training.


Yeah alright - but a guaranteed first job or a career? It’s a long term investment. Yeah doing a Rex or Sharp cadet program may be a guaranteed job, but the QF Academy is a 50-70% chance of a job within the group straight up and then I would imagine priority in recruitment for the rest.

Given Rex pilots are applying to QF at a very high rate I’d say aim initially for where you want to be in the long run.

[soseg]

I’ll chime in here.

This idea of GA pilots coming up to the airlines with thousands of hours of no SOPs or poor SOPs is horse ****. It’s easily learned. Stop spreading this myth that you can’t teach a late 20s or mid 30s, 40s etc pilot new SOPs when they finally hit the airline world.

There is very switched on low hour pilots who grasp stuff quick and slower learners who probably need a few thousand hours GA to help the transition into multi crew jet ops.

I’ve also seen experienced GA pilots who are absolute dog ****. Some of which are in the airlines and I wouldn’t trust them to fly VFR in a c172.

”Teaching them higher standard SOPs from day 1”. Yeah right. Most GA schools out there hold a decent standard on paper/SOPs. However, go talk to testing officers out there. It’s changed in the last half decade. There’s a lot of low hour g3s teaching dog **** who don’t know basic theory themselves. And this applies to the cadet school at wellcamp too.

CPL candidates going up for tests who can’t read a TAF, or tell you alternate requirements because “my instructor said that airport is always good to go”. The list goes on. I regularly talk to testing officers and the standard anecdotally has fallen hard particularly when it comes to theory and knowledge. Literally hearing stories of CPL candidates who aren’t RPL standard on test day. Never make it into the aircraft. That is a **** reflection on the instructors and any school that allows a student to get put up for test who cannot get through theory needs to bring those instructors in for tea and bickies.

There is a stigma towards these diamond cadets. Some of it deserved and not always through fault of their own. Shiny jet-school syndrome catches many out.

​

[Climb150]

I'm sure this may have been said in this thread already, but I'm pretty sure this flying school only exists to produce a pilot oversupply and keep wages low.

After a quick look on LinkedIn, it appears the vast majority of QGPA grads are not working for any Qantas group airline or flying in GA. If anyone has some stats debunking this please let me know. I wonder how long they will hang around before giving up on the Airline Pilot fairytale.

[lucille]

I’ve said this before, only three factors for a “successful” career… Luck, Perseverance or a rich, well connected Mummy (or Daddy).

Note: Success is in the eye of the beholder and certainly does not mean Happiness. As most of us have discovered by the time we hit 40.

[dr dre]

I'm sure this may have been said in this thread already, but I'm pretty sure this flying school only exists to produce a pilot oversupply and keep wages low.

Only if the training output from other schools has decreased. There’s no data from after 2021 that I can find but it would be interested to see if the Academy has had a negative effect on CPLs issued from other flying schools?

After a quick look on LinkedIn, it appears the vast majority of QGPA grads are not working for any Qantas group airline or flying in GA. If anyone has some stats debunking this please let me know. I wonder how long they will hang around before giving up on the Airline Pilot fairytale.

Most on LinkedIn are there because they are putting themselves out there for a better position. Those who have achieved that are less likely to list on LinkedIn.

I have it on fairly good authority the situation has improved with recent grads.

[goodtimeNOTalongtime]

I think they’re either over 100 (or almost there) pilots hired from the Academy into Link and JQ. Last I heard there was practically nobody on hold with JQ and grads who pass the assessment centre are getting starts pretty quick. Massive appetite projected for the rest of 2024 too. Only a matter of time before other AOC’s get their training sorted for low time pilots then it’ll be game on.

The early days it was a different story because of the way it all started up, but they seem to be starting to get the hang of it now.

[CaptainInsaneO]

It'd be nice if they publicly stated the success rate of applicants who end up getting jobs in the airlines. Being upfront to these young men and women before they take on the huge loans would be nice. Not too sure if they do or not..

[goodtimeNOTalongtime]

It'd be nice if they publicly stated the success rate of applicants who end up getting jobs in the airlines. Being upfront to these young men and women before they take on the huge loans would be nice. Not too sure if they do or not..

It would be nice, but like anything in aviation, 24hrs is a long time, so numbers change. Even the rate of success from each course is different, as is their progression into the group. And unfortunately there are those that will see a variance in numbers and immediately look for a conspiracy to manufacture drama.

But you are right, my belief is that transparency and honesty is a far better approach than radio silence or cherry picked figures that fit today’s narrative. Come to think of it that’s probably why I’m not in Corporate Comms 😜

[Clare Prop]

It'd be nice if they publicly stated the success rate of applicants who end up getting jobs in the airlines. Being upfront to these young men and women before they take on the huge loans would be nice. Not too sure if they do or not..

Not just "nice" but as a taxpayer whose money is bring used to fund their loan I would say it is essential.

Do they exist to flood the market with pilots? No, they exist to divert an eye watering amount of taxpayers' dollars into a few pockets and to build a business model that makes it very difficult for other training providers to compete with.

[dr dre]

Not just "nice" but as a taxpayer whose money is bring used to fund their loan I would say it is essential.

Do they exist to flood the market with pilots? No, they exist to divert an eye watering amount of taxpayers' dollars into a few pockets and to build a business model that makes it very difficult for other training providers to compete with.

That should be a requirement for all flying schools then. I'd wager the proportion of graduates of the Academy ending up in full time airline employment within 12 months of graduation is probably far higher than those who attained their CPL at a 'regular' flying school finding even casual employment.

It's a free market, if other training providers are having difficulty competing with the Academy they need to change the way they operate and the product they produce. It's not incumbent on an airline to ensure the viability of 'regular' flying schools, if the nature of the market has changed then those other training providers will either adapt or perish.

[Climb150]

Free market? So a flying school that officially has no guarantee of getting you a job at Qantas has Qantas and Pilot Academy in it's name?

How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?

What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?

Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.

Anyone who studied economics knows that to keep labour costs down you need more workers than jobs. QGPA is aiming to pump out graduates to make this a reality.

You can dress it up any way you want but please stop making out that QGPA is doing a public service.

[Al E. Vator]

Have noticed at Wellcamp and also Wagga, self-appointed air traffic controllers (senior instructors?) hopping on the radio and ‘directing’ aircraft to go here and there and do this and that.

Probably well-intentioned to alleviate congestion etc but suggest you don’t. Often it simply adds to the confusion and may also place you in a precarious place legally should an incident occur

[dr dre]

Free market? So a flying school that officially has no guarantee of getting you a job at Qantas has Qantas and Pilot Academy in it's name?

How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?

What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?

Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.

There's no guarantees in life. Not even the old QF cadet program guaranteed employment. But upon successful completion of the course and if the airline is recruiting graduates would be taken into the recruitment pool, and then considered for a start date. Sometimes they would send graduates out into the GA industry for a bit more experience prior to employment if they felt it necessary. In some ways this is how the Academy works, with the % of grads ending up employed straight into the group increasing in recent years.

The partnership with QF will assist FTA in finding applicants for this academy, but they are still limiting the numbers taken in after a selection process involving theory, aptitude testing and interview. But the airline can employ whoever they want. If they want 100% of their recruits to come from the Academy system then that's what they'll do. Will other flying schools suffer? Probably, or turn to foreign trainees. But like I said there's no responsibility on the part of the airline to prop up every flight school across the nation. In fact I can foresee a future where the airline picks some other flying schools to provide training under the Academy system to the QF syllabus, the same as FTA in Wellcamp. One would imagine if it did happen it would be quite a sought after contract for such a school.

[bobbelmore]

There's no guarantees in life. Not even the old QF cadet program guaranteed employment. .

Not correct. The original 1960s scheme did, but it wasn’t called a cadet pilot training scheme.
The 1960s scheme called the Cadet Pilot scheme did. The 1990s scheme didn’t. Most got in but there were a couple who didn’t.

[Climb150]

It's a free market, if other training providers are having difficulty competing with the Academy they need to change the way they operate and the product they produce. It's not incumbent on an airline to ensure the viability of 'regular' flying schools, if the nature of the market has changed then those other training providers will either adapt or perish.


You missed the point. Getting free leverage of the Qantas name makes it not a level playing field.
Your solution is adapt or die? I don't know of one flying school other than QGPA that will turn away a person who has the ability to pay. How are they getting so many applicants? Maybe it's the vague hints Qantas will hire you at the end? What other school can make that claim and have the Qantas name on the door.

Your views are incredibly biased towards Qantas.

The ultimate losers will the people who dropped 130k to find out that cadet placement at Qantas companies will be more like 20% and not whatever number marketing came up with.

[Clare Prop]

The ultimate losers will the people who dropped 130k to find out that cadet placement at Qantas companies will be more like 20% and not whatever number marketing came up with.

Yep.

Make that $175,000 able to be borrowed on a HELP loan for 2024. Not including the 20% "admin" fees, which takes it to over $210,000, indexation this year will be around 4.5% ..so let's make that $220,000 after the first indexation on the full amount. You'd need a starter salary of $118,000 just to pay the first year's indexation deduction from your pay without making a dent on the loan.

Luckily not all flying schools and not all students want to be part of the airlines.

[dr dre]

The ultimate losers will the people who dropped 130k to find out that cadet placement at Qantas companies will be more like 20% and not whatever number marketing came up with.

Current feedback from those newly graduated and in the pipeline is the current placement rate direct into the group is well above 65%, and the remainder are being assisted in instructional jobs or in GA, and will have priority in selection when the time comes for group recruitment. It’s much better than it was 4 years ago. Not guaranteed but a much higher probability of direct airline employment after a year of training vs a “normal” flying school.

Yep.

Make that $175,000 able to be borrowed on a HELP loan for 2024. Not including the 20% "admin" fees, which takes it to over $210,000, indexation this year will be around 4.5% ..so let's make that $220,000 after the first indexation on the full amount. You'd need a starter salary of $118,000 just to pay the first year's indexation deduction from your pay without making a dent on the loan.

Compare the Academy costs vs a “normal” flight school for CPL, IR and ATPL Theory/MCC:

Academy (https://www.flyfta.com/course-information/course-brochures/)
CPL - $85k
IR - $33k
ATPL/MCC - $20k

”Normal (https://basair.com.au/diploma-of-aviation-combined-package-diploma-of-aviation-avi50219/)”
CPL $92k
IR $40k

”Normal (https://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/)”
CPL $103k
IR $32k

ATPL Theory (https://advancedflighttheory.com.au/atpla-theory/atpla-course-fees/) - $7k

MCC (https://aviationaustralia.aero/study/pilot/career-enhancer/mcc/) - $7k

So the costs of training via the Academy are comparable and not wildly dissimilar to a “normal” GA flying school. Train at the “normal” school and you’ll still be subject to the same admin fee and indexing.

So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.

Luckily not all flying schools and not all students want to be part of the airlines.

As this thread is discussing an airline specific academy then the discussion is going be aimed at those who want to fly for an airline.

Of course a student who wants to have a career solely in GA should not train at this Academy, I would’ve thought that was pretty obvious?

[Clare Prop]

Well all my former studes who are now with Qantas, Virgin, Emirates, Network, Jetstar and others all went via GA and as a result were able to go in with ATPL exams AND hours already done and get a command sooner than someone who had gone into the RHS straight out of flying school.

One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.

So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.

My grads enter the workforce with a training investment of around $80,000 which they can get a return on as pay straight away.

[dr dre]

Well all my former studes who are now with Qantas, Virgin, Emirates, Network, Jetstar and others all went via GA and as a result were able to go in with ATPL exams AND hours already done and get a command sooner than someone who had gone into the RHS straight out of flying school.

No, Command is predicated on seniority. ATPL minimums are 1500 total = 2 years of operational flying and no part of the group is upgrading F/Os before the two year mark anyway. A cadet/academy grad gets into the airline quicker and gets that all important seniority number climbing quicker.

Were you still under the impression a pilot needs 500 multi IFR PIC before gaining command in an airline?

One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.

That’s fast, generally those in GA stay in a little bit longer than that before getting into an airline. But that’s still two years that particular pilot is behind an academy grad who got employed straight after CPL training.

​​​​​​​So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.

Encounters with the many pilots I’ve known over my career have shown those who got employed by an airline at an earlier age were able to upgrade faster. Apart from a few who were very skilled or lucky and did less than 2 years in GA almost all were products of an Academy/Cadet/Traineeship scheme.

[Global Aviator]

Not sure how the Aussie system works but under one system I worked cadets (self sponsored) went straight into the RHS of the A320.

3-5 years later upgrading to command, their only ‘command’ time PICUS.

How does it work in the Aussie airlines?

Looking back at my career would I have jumped straight into an airline if I could? Yep, however looking back at the extreme fun I had in GA I actually feel sorry for guys that go straight into the RHS. Yeah it’s a career but it ain’t flying (ok it is flying but ya know what I mean).

If it is over 65% going into group airlines then that’s a solid number. However wouldn’t it be great to see sponsored cadetships, the true cadetship.

[Climb150]

Anecdotal 60% placement rate and assistance for the others? Where did that number come from or is it just from the rumour mill at QGPA?

Until it's in writing it didn't happen.
​​​

[Climb150]

So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.

Yes I would like to save 15% on 140k please. It's only 21k (such a small amount !!!) and if I don't go to the academy I can live at home and save more money.

As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
​​​​​​​

[Ollie Onion]

Yes I would like to save 15% on 140k please. It's only 21k (such a small amount !!!) and if I don't go to the academy I can live at home and save more money.

As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.



Well, I just flew with a couple of Qantas Academy Graduates last month who were straight to the right hand seat of an A320 so it is not so naive.

[Climb150]

So you met 2 lucky ones.

Exceptions don't make the rule.

[Brakerider]

No, Command is predicated on seniority. ATPL minimums are 1500 total = 2 years of operational flying and no part of the group is upgrading F/Os before the two year mark anyway. A cadet/academy grad gets into the airline quicker and gets that all important seniority number climbing quicker.



This isn't really correct. Yes, an ATPL is 1500 hours, but I don't know of any QF Group carrier with command requirements that low. In my experience, I had seen closer to 3000 hours - which meant the cadets always got trumped for commands by their junior GA counterparts.

[aussieflyboy]

The problem with being a cadet is that you’ll always be a cadet and you’ll never know how to GTFJD.

[dr dre]

This isn't really correct. Yes, an ATPL is 1500 hours, but I don't know of any QF Group carrier with command requirements that low. In my experience, I had seen closer to 3000 hours - which meant the cadets always got trumped for commands by their junior GA counterparts.

I’ve checked the requirements for one group entity and it’s actually far less than that figure, something that would be easily achieved in the RHS while waiting for a command slot.

But even if it wasn’t then two people who graduated from a CPL course at the same time, one from an academy and one from a ‘normal’ school, would both still reach airline captaincy (and this would just be for QLink as the first available upgrade) at the same time, except the path for the academy grad is more secure.

[dr dre]

The problem with being a cadet is that you’ll always be a cadet and you’ll never know how to GTFJD.

Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.

[aussieflyboy]

Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.

No doubt they are, but alas they will always be a cadet.

[soseg]

Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.

His GTFJD joke went way over your head.

[soseg]

no part of the group is upgrading F/Os before the two year mark anyway.

10 months at Jetstar.

[Ollie Onion]

So you met 2 lucky ones.

Exceptions don't make the rule.


Nope, these two were 2/7 that’s started with us last Ictober and they were 7 of 250 joining Jetstar over the next 12 months so hardly an exception.

[aussieflyboy]

But even if it wasn’t then two people who graduated from a CPL course at the same time, one from an academy and one from a ‘normal’ school, would both still reach airline captaincy (and this would just be for QLink as the first available upgrade) at the same time, except the path for the academy grad is more secure.

Why do you think working in GA is not secure?

I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!

[soseg]

Why do you think working in GA is not secure?

I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!

hardys, hinterland and gam? Secure? On 70k wages once you make the multi turbine? Getting your roster the night before because it’s charter?

what a life

[btrdux]

Hardys more secure than Jetstar

Bloody hell just when I thought I heard it all 🤣

[dr dre]

Why do you think working in GA is not secure?

I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years than QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!

‘Secure’ as in a more defined pathway to an airline career - if that is your goal.

Of course if someone desires a career in GA then obviously this academy is not for them.

[Clare Prop]

It is clear where dre's vested interests lie. Of course there is a place for these academies BUT I think it is wrong that the taxpayers rather than the airlines are being forced to make the investment in their training.

I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.

Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.

[dr dre]

It is clear where dre's vested interests lie. Of course there is a place for these academies BUT I think it is wrong that the taxpayers rather than the airlines are being forced to make the investment in their training.

Well unfortunately whether you like it or not our society has shifted the burden of higher education costs onto the student. This is true for piloting courses, or law, medicine, nursing, engineering or whatever profession a young person wishes to purse a career in. The government is as likely to force airlines to fund pilot training costs as it will force hospitals to pay for medical degrees or law firms to pay for legal courses. There is an argument for all higher education to be taxpayer funded but I don't think voters would like the massive tax hikes required to fund that.

So the solution that has evolved is a loans based system, HECS and FEE HELP. This allows a young person to undertake study without having $150k in their pocket to begin with. It will take a young person decades of full time work to save up the cash required to pay for training up front. Either that or have wealthy parents, and I think we can agree that being a professional pilot shouldn't be only the domain of the rich.

The only vested interest I have would be to direct a young person interested in an airline career onto the best path to achieve that.

I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.

Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.

Like I said before the initial graduates didn't have a high success rate (mostly due to the Covid employment market) but lately it has improved, and having contact with recent grads I can say that plenty are starting employment as group F/Os after graduation.

And even if what you are saying is true like I linked to above the course costs for an Academy grad is similar to a student choosing to take CPL and IR training at a regular school, and the same qualifications gained at the end of it.

[Clare Prop]

I'm very aware of how the HELP system works. Until the person pays it ALL back, which may never happen, it IS taxpayer funded. That money doesn't grow on a tree. It has gone to the training provider, it is not building infrastructure, hospitals, etc.

I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time. People who have gone out there, had some adventures, learned their boundaries and learned from experience rather than follow the bouncing ball of an integrated course.

Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/ep-122-training-standards-in-crisis/id1595459987?i=1000651682086)

The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they choose to. Many see how toxic it is and choose not to.

It's better than the other way round, being on the scrapheap before you have even begun, or having to spend a lot of money to get some useful experience, like all the unlucky ones who don't make it because their "airline" skills weren't good enough and are not transferable to any other area of aviation.

[Lookleft]

It will take a young person decades of full time work to save up the cash required to pay for training up front.

It doesn't take decades. Many thousands of airline pilots have simply worked and flown at the same time doing their subjects by correspondence and are airline ready by the time they are 23 with a couple of thousand hours. They also don't have the massive HECS debt hanging over their head. There is a career in aviation or there is the current self-funded cadet program. I would agree with your point about seniority number but if you are in airlines young enough then it doesn't make that much difference in the long run. If you want an airline career in Qantas mainline then you are better off applying direct from GA. Going into QLink or Jetstar from the cadet scheme is not going to give you any better seniority number in mainline. That rort stopped many years ago.

[dr dre]

I'm very aware of how the HELP system works. Until the person pays it ALL back, which may never happen, it IS taxpayer funded. That money doesn't grow on a tree. It has gone to the training provider, it is not building infrastructure, hospitals, etc.

What's your solution then? Pass legislation that forces airlines, and all other industry groups, to fund higher education for new entrants into each industry? Somehow I don't think the business lobby will allow that. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more tax to fully fund higher education and to give the youth of today a stepping stone ahead but I don't think most voters would agree. So unfortunately the loan system is the best option.

I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time.

Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/ep-122-training-standards-in-crisis/id1595459987?i=1000651682086)

Well here's where we deviate. I'm talking about training into an airline system from scratch. Of course anyone who is aiming for a career in GA should train in a school aimed at that path. As this thread is about the QGPA I would have thought the discussion would be about the academy, not general gripes about the GA training industry, which is best left to another thread.

Similar to the podcast, which is mentioning gripes with the standard of CPL grads that entry level GA employers are encountering, not Cadet/Academy graduates heading straight into multi crew airlines. There may be concerns in respect to the quality of CPL grads heading into GA but that's a topic for another thread. In fact at 9:00 minutes in he acknowledges that there is a difference between schools that produce GA pilots vs schools that train cadet pilots.

The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they chose to. Many don't.


One of the major reasons airlines perform ab initio training from scratch is to monitor and guide students to an airline oriented multi crew SOP world from the beginning. That's why students doing basic training in a Cessna or Diamond train using SOP procedures more relevant to an airline. Not because they're going to be flying a Cessna as their first job, because it'll be in a multi crew turboprop or jet. An integrated course also allows the training provider to monitor a student's progress along the way and mould them in the skills and non technical behaviours the airline requires, which you really can't do in a self study course.

If a students is aiming for a career in GA then by all means do a 200 hour self study course. But as the title of the thread indicates that's a topic for another thread.

[dr dre]

It doesn't take decades. Many thousands of airline pilots have simply worked and flown at the same time doing their subjects by correspondence and are airline ready by the time they are 23 with a couple of thousand hours.

With the cost of flight training, entry level wages for school leavers and the cost of living I highly doubt that's true in 2024. I know young people (in other full time jobs) who are struggling to live and save up for an $80k home loan deposit by age 30-35 let alone have paid for flight training and be employable by 23.

[Lookleft]

Well here's where we deviate.

Well I have flown with them in the past decade and they are now Captains of NB jets in the QF Group. They also make excellent F/O's, highly motivated, intelligent and enjoyed their time in GA where they learnt skills they will never learn at a sausage factory cadet program. I have also flown with pilots through the cadet stream.

[Clare Prop]

Funnily enough there was a surplus of entry level pilots even before the govt started handing out gigantic loans for it.

My CPL grads are all self-funded, they are found in all areas of aviation. I was also self-funded, I earned most of it and the rest was paid for by scholarships. I never borrowed or was given a cent towards it and had UK, USA and Australian CPLs by the age of 29. It was doable then and it is doable now.

The HELP system is a massive gravy train. It leaves a lot of casualties in its wake and makes a few people very rich. (eg Neel from Soar). You may not see them dre, but I do, before these loans there weren't these broken people who were promised the world but ended up crippled with debt for the rest of their lives.

Someone needs to crunch the numbers, not anecdotally, and present them to the taxpayers.

[soseg]

I wouldn't mind paying a bit more tax to fully fund higher education

You just lost all credibility.

[Climb150]

I know people flying in the Middle East, Asia and USA etc who all paid for the flying training in Australia via HELP loans. None of these people have any intention of returning to Australia to pay it back. These where the ones who managed to find a job. Most say very few people they trained with where still in aviation 3 years after they finished.

Also, I got my CPL a few years before you could get HELP loans for it. Everyone I trained with had saved for a few years to come up with the money. We were a mixed bunch from ages 22 to 30. We all had worked in either mining/transport/trades etc and one guy had been in the Army. All the people I started with finished CPL. I don't recall anybody talking about a pilot shortage. Qlink at the time wanted 2500 total with 500 multi PIC and 100 night command.

When I went in North looking for work the majority of people seemed to be from NZ. After looking in NZ for a job they ended up in Oz. All of these people seemed to have gotten the NZ Govt to fund their CPL.

Fast forward a few years and my school had HELP loan funding. Every 6 months a class of 30 would arrive. All had just finished Yr12 and thought they would go straight to Qantas when they finished. They soon realise this probably won't happen and many drop out.

Even if a kid drops out, the school charges then the full amount for CPL training which goes on the HELP debt.

It is a rort and must be stopped. It is being taken advantage of by schools and students.

[MalcolmReynolds]

Another rort is that they charged for the lesson whether they turn up or not, a lot of the money goes on cancellation/no show fees. Nice for the flying school...no variable costs going out but keep the money anyway.
I have a stude who has walked away from a sausage factory and is currently building up command time. He is having to fight hard to get back thousands of dollars they made him pay up front. I don't like his chances.

Never pay in advance. EVER! Pay for the flying you do each day as you do it.

[Mach E Avelli]

Never pay in advance. EVER! Pay for the flying you do each day as you do it.
Better still, we need cadet pilot academies fully funded by the airlines that will benefit from their pilot graduates. Potential pilots to be selected by the airline and all successful graduates guaranteed employment. Run concurrently with direct entry employment from other sources such as military and GA.
British Airways did that successfully 60 years ago, so it’s not exactly a novel concept.

[Clare Prop]

Plenty of airlines are doing that now. Singapore Flying College at Jandakot has been doing it for decades. We also had China Southern training there. I looked into a few cadet schemes when I was going for my CPL, they have always been around. The airline needs the pilots, they see them as an investment in thier future and they get a bond to ensure he investment isn;t wasted, Qantas and co don;t need to because there is a huge pool of people who are willing to put the risk onto themselves and the taxpayer.

The government funding for the CPL is only available at that same amount ($175,000 before admin fees and indexing) for vet, medical and dental students, who have achieved a top ATAR to be accepted onto the course and 100% of them have a good chance at a stable career at graduation, there is a true need for those skills, and importantly they will have the earning capacity to pay it back.

There is no such ATAR requirement for pilots. If the entry rate straight into an airline is indeed 65% (though anecdotally I hear it is far, far lower than that) then there are still 35% of them on the scrap heap, no good for GA without a great deal of further training.

Let's say there was a Royal Commission into how Neel Khokhami was able to fleece us all of millions of dollars and brag about it on the Rich List then leave the country with it in his pocket, other schools who have done similar, closed their doors and left the staff and students students high and dry. Let's say they realised that the funding is, let's put it nicely, inappropriate given the difference it isn't making to a perceived pilot shortage compared to a few people getting very, very rich.

Let's say the funding was reduced, suspended, or stopped altogether. What would the airlines do then? What did they do before?

[runway16]

M.E.V.

Could not agree more.

VET FEE Help still leaves a potential student with a massive debt even if they do not get in aviation, be it GA or an airline slot.
It should be that the airlines take a financial burden instead of just putting their new on-tick CPLs on a waiting list. That is not what they were told on entry. There were told that get their CPL and they would be into the airline. Not always the case.
As for cadets they should really be called captive students paying for their flight training via the Tax Payers dollar through the Government. We are producing more (inexperienced) pilots than the system needs or wants. It is wrong to give the spin 'Get your CPL with us and you have a seat on our XXX airliner'
Try and get a mortgage or buy a car on tick with a VET FEE loans hanging over your head.
R

[aussieflyboy]

M.E.V.

Could not agree more.

VET FEE Help still leaves a potential student with a massive debt even if they do not get in aviation, be it GA or an airline slot.
It should be that the airlines take a financial burden instead of just putting their new on-tick CPLs on a waiting list. That is not what they were told on entry. There were told that get their CPL and they would be into the airline. Not always the case.
As for cadets they should really be called captive students paying for their flight training via the Tax Payers dollar through the Government. We are producing more (inexperienced) pilots than the system needs or wants. It is wrong to give the spin 'Get your CPL with us and you have a seat on our XXX airliner'
Try and get a mortgage or buy a car on tick with a VET FEE loans hanging over your head.
R

Most Aussie airlines charge a Pilot for their endorsements through the use of a training wage or a wage bump after 3 or 4 years. Eg: Qantas pay around the equivalent of $60K a year for the first 6+ months. You’ve got no chance of them paying for an initial Pilots Licence.

[Clare Prop]

Not for as long as there are people doing these courses and taking all the risk, no.

[btrdux]

Would love to know how that's different from GA flying schools, where the student still assumes all the financial risk, but for a 0% chance of direct entry into an airline, or a small percentage chance of a flying job without uprooting their entire lives to a remote part of the country for a barely liveable wage?

[Climb150]

Would love to know how that's different from GA flying schools, where the student still assumes all the financial risk, but for a 0% chance of direct entry into an airline, or a small percentage chance of a flying job without uprooting their entire lives to a remote part of the country for a barely liveable wage?


Without trying to sound like a p#ck, have you read the last 3 pages of comments?

[dr dre]

If the entry rate straight into an airline is indeed 65% (though anecdotally I hear it is far, far lower than that) then there are still 35% of them on the scrap heap, no good for GA without a great deal of further training.


Well I don’t like to make comments without backing them up so spoke to some with intimate knowledge of the Academy setup. Yes, it can be confirmed a lot are now being taken on into the group as F/Os straight away, but also those who aren’t taken straight away and also showed aptitude and ability on course are being provided with instructing opportunities and there have been some arrangements with GA charter operators for others. Not all have been provided with employment opportunities, especially at the start, but it’s getting better.

Basically your performance on course determines how likely you are to get employment.

[Clare Prop]

Would love to know how that's different from GA flying schools, where the student still assumes all the financial risk, but for a 0% chance of direct entry into an airline, or a small percentage chance of a flying job without uprooting their entire lives to a remote part of the country for a barely liveable wage?
It will cost them about half as much, for a start.

[Clare Prop]

Well I don’t like to make comments without backing them up so spoke to some with intimate knowledge of the Academy setup. Yes, it can be confirmed a lot are now being taken on into the group as F/Os straight away, but also those who aren’t taken straight away and also showed aptitude and ability on course are being provided with instructing opportunities and there have been some arrangements with GA charter operators for others. Not all have been provided with employment opportunities, especially at the start, but it’s getting better.

Basically your performance on course determines how likely you are to get employment.
So, if someone is performing below standard on the course, to the point where it is unlikely they will be employable at the end, are they still allowed to continue or are they let go?

[dr dre]

So, if someone is performing below standard on the course, to the point where it is unlikely they will be employable at the end, are they still allowed to continue or are they let go?

It would be worked on a case by case basis and dependent on how deep into the course a trainee was.

The way a traditional cadetship/academy works is the training progress of the student is closely monitored. If it becomes apparent they are not performing to the required standard they are given help and opportunities to improve but if the standards are consistently below what is required then a decision would be made to remove them from course.

And it’s not just lack of technical ability or knowledge which would see a student removed from course, students have been removed for behavioural reasons too. Some have made it through to the end of course but been advised due to their behaviour and attitudes exhibited on course that employment will not be offered to them. In a way it’s a year long job interview.

If a student was removed from course I’m not 100% sure of the outcome, they may be refunded the portion of training they did not compete. Depending on the reason they may also be allowed to continue training in a private aspect at that flying school until competing the CPL/IR but would not be considered as part of the airline’s program.

[btrdux]

Without trying to sound like a p#ck, have you read the last 3 pages of comments?

I have mate, and I've read a bunch of things none of which answer my question. There have been a bunch of wild assertions such as GA operators being more stable careers than Q group. My question was, other than the higher upfront cost, how does the concept of financial risk being put all on the trainee differ from QGPA or a traditional school? Arguably the traditional school has much higher financial risk, as you have a 0% chance of Q group employment on completion, and the jobs that are available require you to move to remote areas indefinitely for a barely liveable wage (and certainly lower than even the lowest paid Q group pilot). Anything I've said there that's incorrect?

It will cost them about half as much, for a start.

You've just said earlier in this thread that a self-funded GA CPL will cost about $80k from your mob. A quick look at the QGPA website says that the course fees for the CPL portion of the program is around $85k. Doesn't look like half to me.

Say what you want, but by the looks of it if you are good/lucky enough to get into QGPA and stay out of training/behavioural issues, you'll be set up in the best position possible for an Australian Aviation career. Perhaps you're not guaranteed a job, but this is life, nothing is guaranteed. Certainly not in aviation.

[ajax58]

The government funding for the CPL is only available at that same amount ($175,000 before admin fees and indexing) for vet, medical and dental students, who have achieved a top ATAR to be accepted onto the course and 100% of them have a good chance at a stable career at graduation, there is a true need for those skills, and importantly they will have the earning capacity to pay it back.


You obviously don't know many vets.

[Climb150]

This thread is done as almost everyone is happy that QGPA is churning out fresh CPLs with a huge debt in a market that doesn't really need them..

This will eventually lower Ts and Cs for all pilots..

Good luck in 3rd world aviation that is Australia.