JAA PPL in USA

[Riptorn]

Okay, I know that no-one can comment on US flying schools on a public forum, but if anyone has any info', experiences, useful tips on UK Flight Training in LA, or Orlando Beach Aviation I'd appreciate their e-mail address as a contact.

[ickle black box]

I can comment on 'Ormond Beach Aviation' if you want (good comments), havn't heard of the Orlando one.

ickle

[Riptorn]

Ooops!

Yes I mean't Ormond - you see it isn't the computer that's the problem, it's my brain.

[ANDERSON]

Suggestion-Why not look at doing your PPL in
Ft.Pierce with EFT www.europeanflighttraining.com (http://www.europeanflighttraining.com)
I have no connection with this company but
their appears to be very little negative comments always a good sign of a job being well done.

Good Luck

[herniair]

Why do people assume Orlando has a beach?!!

Why does 'no connection' ANDERSON always rush to recommend EFT, who have no real track record, after only a few weeks as a flight school?

[Luke SkyToddler]

No recommendation from me, but a word of advice. I'm a UK based instructor who's just had to convert two students with Florida PPL's into the JAR system in the last month, and both of them were the same. Totally overconfident and lazy on the radio, did their checks like lightning without paying any attention to what the instruments were saying, poor situational awareness, appallingly bad lookout and (in one case in particular) basic attitude flying skills were not there. Both bright enough and nice enough people, but they had just basically learned some very bad habits and not had any effort whatsoever put in by their instructors. And they both ended up paying for quite a few extra hours here in the UK, to get themselves up to UK test standard.

I'm not implying all Florida schools are like this ... there are some very good ones as well ... but before you go, have a think about why that school is only charging $30 per hour or whatever it is they charge, which is about half of what the others charge ... no country is immune to the law of 'you get what you pay for'!!

As you rightly pointed out, we are not allowed to engage in 'naming and shaming' on this forum (typical yanks - offer a bit of constructive criticism and they start trying to sue you!) but you're welcome to email me.

[ANDERSON]

henriair

Why do you assume that because somebody recommends a place for others to check out that they have a vested interest in that business.Why are you so negative about a new operation do you feel threatened by it sure sounds like it.
I have no connection with EFT In Ft Pierce
but I have met the owners a few years ago while at Flight Safety and there dedication and reputation as instructors is well respected.
Please be more constructive and if you have a genuine point to make lets hear it.

Give the people who are asking questions about the approved FTOs in Ormond Beach,Orlando,Ft Pierce,Naples and Melbourne a chance to make their choice.

At least they are intelligent enough to
realise that they will be gaining more experience than is readily available back in Europe at a more affordable cost.Who knows it may change their entire outlook on which path to follow for their future careers.

[ickle black box]

Luke SkyToddler,

Maybe your two student's were both typically like that. General handling and discipline in the aircraft will be taught, where ever you learn to fly. It's then up to the student to maintain this disclipine when they start flying solo, otherwise the habits will creep in.

I accept that Florida pilots RT will be relaxed, as they take a laid back approach to RT in the US (Which I much prefer).

ickle

[herniair]

'Answering' (not answering) a question with questions Anderson says he knew them years ago, so what, when they weren't in business.
If I set up in business tomorrow, there wouldn't be any negative comments.
P.S. sort out the use of 'their' and 'there' as otherwise no-one will know whether you're a promoter or proprietor.

[As The Prop Turns]

Heard great things about Naples Air Centre and Brittania - though neither were on you list - believe that they are both FTOs.

[CreepMark]

OK herniar,

Obviously a trouble maker it seems. Why bother posting if all you are trying to do is look for trouble. People like you bore the pants off me waffling on looking to find an arguement in anything that is said or offered as an experience or opinion.

Anderson is only saying that he met these guys before at another establishment earlier on in their careers. (2-3 yrs ago). He also stated that they were well respected and dedicated. They are. You would not find two more dedicated individuals trying to make 'their' (spelt correctly i believe)business a profitable entity, and, the only way they will get this is by providing a good service to clients, this being what they do.

People use this forum to share experiences, good or bad. If you've got nothing to say except pick holes in Andersons use of the english language, or contradict / criticise others views then don't bother.

Go on then, point out the grammar and spelling missteaks.

------------------
Climb Aboard, lets have some fun.

[As The Prop Turns]

Just met a couple of pilots that were in LA for flight training - the weather and smog were so bad that they only got 8 hours completed in 10 days. Most of this flying was the Instructor flying IMC above the fog to get to the small bit of airspace they could train in above the weather & below the very busy airspace. They left and went to Florida to complete their training.

[CreepMark]

as the prop turns,

can't comment on Naples other than they reply to e-mails, question etc very promptly and appear to offer a good service (a little more expensive than most though).

Brittania at winterhaven, good bunch of people, hearts in the right places but aircraft serviceability a little poor.

------------------
Climb Aboard, lets have some fun.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Dear Ickle ...

Maybe you're right, maybe my two students were both just that kind of person. And no doubt, when you're an examiner one day, and you meet a candidate with those kind of basic deficiencies, you will say to them 'well ... you're just that kind of person so that's OK, have yourself a licence to kill'?

On what possible grounds can you say that general handling and discipline in the aircraft are taught 'everywhere' you learn to fly! You never had an instructor that you thought wasn't as good as another? Why are you engaging in this good-versus-bad flying school debate at all if that's what you think. It is most certainly NOT enough to say that it is up to the student to maintain these habits once they start flying solo ... you can try telling that to the CAA investigator who's about to pull YOUR licence because of some daft thing your solo student did! Worse than that, you might well find yourself explaining that little theory to some guy's widow one day ...

I think it's generally accepted that we walk into this flying business with no skills or knowledge base, and we all learn largely by example. If, for argument's sake, an instructor has a slack approach to lookout, then I will bet you anything that so will his/her students, no matter how conscientious and keen they otherwise are! They learn by imitating us, not by listening to us. Even then, three quarters of it goes in one ear and out the other - that's why it's so important that we go overboard on the safety things like careful lookouts before every manoeuvre, not skimping on checklists, etc. Like it or not there are plenty of instructors that don't, and we've all met one or two and probably seen the sort of students they produce. Students might well think that we're some kind of obsessive weirdo's, but end of the day it's US and us alone that are responsible for their lives, every time we sign them out - and our reputations, our licences, and our clean consciences ride on every single trip.

That's why I get pissed off when I hear first hand stories from some of my Florida guys, of instructors taking their laptops and a pile of aviation magazines on a long crosscountry, teaching nothing the whole time and sitting there updating their airline CV literally while they fly, and then sending the student off solo on the same route the next day. Or, like I have done in the last few weeks, had to deal with some guy that can peel off fantastic stall entries and exits without ever having seen or heard of a HASELL check, or who sits there looking dumbfounded when I suggest it might be a good idea to have a lookout in the direction of the turn before they peel into that huge bank angle.

Like I said, this is not a general dig at Florida, but like it or not that is where most of the scam merchants live, that advertise these so called 'JAA PPL guaranteed in 'x' weeks for $XXXX'. Surely you can see that that puts an instructor under a huge amount of pressure to deliver the results - the wrong sort of pressure - the sort that leads to corners being cut. Some students just fundamentally need more time to learn than others and that needs to be recognized. There is a standard to be met, it's not just 'gaining 45 hours and spending the cash' as some people seem to think it is.

Grrr ... right ... rant over. Don hard hat and prepares for incoming ...

[As The Prop Turns]

Sounds like you have had a bad experience, but suggest that this experience is one side of the coin and not all have the same side.

I personally know of a couple of flight schools in Florida that do their damndest to make sure things are completed as per the real CAA method. When things go askew the Examiner puts them right.

The most important thing is safety afterall, the rest being the icing on the cake. I know of a lot of people that trained in the US who will have not experienced what you have to say - that is not to say that it doesn't happen.

[This message has been edited by As The Prop Turns (edited 23 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by As The Prop Turns (edited 23 April 2001).]

[GeordieFlyer]

I have just completed my JAA PPL in LongBeach... been here 4 weeks and only had 2 days of bad weather which stopped me flying. The school does not look much but is very functional.... the instructors are great and I 100% recommend doing the training here. I cannot comment on any other schools... they may be better and worse out there but I am only commenting on what I have experienced over the last 4 weeks. My plan is to come back over in a couple of months to hour buils to get my 150 hours before ATPL training.

[ANDERSON]

henriair-

Sorry about my haste in posting and poor spelling.I will try harder in future.
Thank you for another NEGATIVE response.
I suggest other readers ignore future postings from him.
I now know who you are and where you are coming from,you have given the game away.
Good Luck.

Luke Sky Toddler-
Interesting debate yes things are very different and sometimes more relaxed than the UK.I agree with some of your comments
but think it a little unfair to pick on students who have come from schools in the USA who have attended a JAA/PPL course.
As you are aware a lot schools offer FAA PPL which need to be converted on return to the UK that is where you are experiencing the standards shortfull I assume.

The process to gain FTO approval from the JAA/CAA is complicated and not taken lightly by the inspectors who visit the schools.
All of the regulations have to be met period.Just like the IR GFT(Remember that nightmare!)
I am very interested in all opinions of flight training in the USA because that is where I completed all of my ratings before
getting my CAA ATPL.I now after 10years have a very good job flying a GIV for a fortune 500 company and have recently become a check airman on type.I also have recruited 3 pilots all from the UK,the company require
that they have had experience training and flying in the USA.Look forward to your replies.

Creep Mark-

I assume you are doing future JAA courses in the USA.Good Luck it will pay off if you keep that POSITIVE attitude.

[ickle black box]

Luke SkyToddler

You have greatly over exagerated my point. Maybe if these two people returned to the US, they would also have been given extra instruction before soloing. By "maybe they were just like that" did not include a request to pass pilots who fell below the minimum standard. You've mentioned the two that needed additional training; have you seen another 10 that didn't, or are these the only US trained PPL's you've encountered?

Every instructor/examiner(inc US ones) can lose their licence for passing someone who's not yet ready. Sloppy standards can creep in with a student who is lazy when he's flying solo. This is not entirly a reflection of their instructors, but maybe who the new pilots are as people. This was my point.

If you spend twice as much to learn to fly with Cabair, you will get better instruction, and would be a better pilot at the end. This doesn't mean you need this level of training, but that it puts you at the higher end of the scale, of flying standards of those why are taking the test at the end.

I would suggest that it would be cheaper, as in this case, to do a PPL in the US, and then recieve extra hours tuition in the UK if nesacarry.

I did my PPL in Florida. I was happy with the instruction I recieved (I fly gliders too, so it was the 2nd load of flying training I'd had). The quality of tuition did vary from instructor to instructor, but I was satisfied with the one I flew with, and especially impressed with a couple of them. There was however one instructor, who I didn't fly with, who the other students continually moaned about.

Every instructor has been tested to ensure that they meet the minimum standards, and are can teach the student the correct way to opperate an aircraft.

I do have a criticism of the place I went to, and that is I wonder occasionally wether they pass someone who could have done with some more training. This is a very serious failure of some examiners, but this occasional occurrence seems to totally overshadow the rest of the students who pass their PPL in Florida, with a 'UK examiner satisfactory' flying ability. A student who is passed without really making the grade, is going to be stopped from flying when they try to hire an aircraft in the UK, and fail the flying check. Maybe your 2 students were in this category, and would have done the PPL in 50 hours, if they'd done it entirly in the UK, instead of a cheap 45hours, and another 10 here to get up to scratch(or however many it took)

Thats all,

ickle

[eject]

Just finishing PPL in UK and planning to go to US for a little hour building prior to starting Modular ATPL.
Can anyone offer advice on how best to prepare for flying in US. Should I do some RT and/or air law study?

[eject]

Just finishing PPL in UK and planning to go to US for a little hour building prior to starting Modular ATPL.
Can anyone offer advice on how best to prepare for flying in US. Should I do some RT and/or air law study?

[eject]

Just finishing PPL in UK and planning to go to US for a little hour building prior to starting Modular ATPL.
Can anyone offer advice on how best to prepare for flying in US. Should I do some RT and/or air law study?

[eject]

hell, sorry about that folks. Don't know what happened.

[weetabix]

I completed my JAA PPL at a certain UK aimed flying school in Long Beach California last summer and definately reccomend it. The weather was exceptional for all but maybe one or two days out of the 6 weeks I was there. There was a bit of smog but this never got so bad to be IMC. The instruction was good and the school ran smoothly, with dry planes with no mud on the pedals!

I just recently started flying again since my return and it took me about 3 hours to get used to the radio (the biggest difference) and checked out on a PA28.

I think it's definately worth training in LA, despite the few hundred quid needed to familiarise in the UK.

[This message has been edited by weetabix (edited 26 April 2001).]

[Buggs]

Eject,

If you're going to fly in another country, its always a good idea to familiarise yourself with the local differences in procedure. As for the U.S., the main thing that you will need to familiarise yourself with is with differences in airspace. R/T is possibly more straight forward out there. Saying that, all should be explained at your flying school anyway. Just keep your eyes open.

Weetabix, totally agree with you in that California is a great place to fly!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Alright ickle ... truce ... I apologise, on reflection I definitely went over the top on that little post. Multiple pints of Hoegaarden and internet chat forums are not the best of friends ...

I have no problem admitting that there are plenty of schools in Florida that put out a quality product, and indeed that there are a few students from UK based flying schools that slip through the quality control net as well :)

Nevertheless I seem to have filled up my in tray with emails, both from irate Florida qualified pilots and nervous students heading that way, so I'd like to apologize to the first group for any offense caused, and offer a bit more of my opinionated counsel to the second ...

No matter which flying school you choose, whether at home or abroad, you should be fine as long as you don't put up with slack instructors that cut corners on their own checklists in order to save time, or fail to give you proper pre- and post- flight briefings and debriefings. Watch out for the ones that take you on numerous, long, cross country nav. trips with no solos in between - they're taking the piss and trying to build their own hours. Get hold of a JAR PPL syllabus (the official one, as issued by AOPA) and make sure you are getting the full range of exercises covered, prior to your skill test.

A proper school will keep records on all its' students, written up by the instructor after each trip - don't go there if they don't, it can make life very difficult for you should you need to change instructors during the course and there's no continuity with student records. Also, you should ask for a copy of your student records when you leave the school, it can really save you time and money, if you can give it to the next instructor you fly with - he/she already knows your strengths and weaknesses and thus the points to focus on in the air.

As long as you know your rights, you shouldn't end up getting fleeced, no matter which part of the world you're in :)