Bloody Sunday

[minigundiplomat]

Scapegoat anyone?

[Treble one]

Realistic chance of a conviction after 47 years of fading memories? Hmmm.

[Kemble Pitts]

Imagine Venezuelan border guards kill some unarmed and peaceful Venezuelan protesters demanding that the US aid be allowed across the bridge, then what?

Just because someone is being prosecuted doesn't mean they are guilty... and just because they wear a uniform doesn't mean they are innocent... and just becasue it happened 50 years ago is no reason not to prosecute if the balance of evidence gives a reasonable chance of conviction.

[racedo]

Nope as PSNI are going after other sides as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/ira-bombing-suspect-john-downing-to-be-extradited-for-belfast-trial

Unpalatable as it seems IF there are reviewing ALL cases then it means ALL.

Here is what is happening at the Ballymurphy Inquests regarding 10 people killed over 3 days in the year before Bloody Sunday.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ballymurphy-soldiers-had-remarkable-selfcontrol-says-exmajor-37911499.html
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ballymurphy-massacre-soldiers-well-pleased-after-shootings-general-tells-inquest-37907353.htmlGranted anonymity by the coroner, witness M45 described the first day of internment and how his men arrested 18 suspects early in the morning of August 9, 1971. He described the rioting at the Henry Taggart base throughout the rest of the day, with soldiers firing 38 rubber bullets and discharging 11 CS gas cannisters as the base came under attack from petrol bombs, nail bombs and gunfire.He said he had provided his own briefings to his men on when they would be allowed to fire their weapons, rather than relying on the 'yellow card' rules of engagement for soldiers. "You cannot deal with a riotous situation if you're looking all the time at a yellow card," he said.

There is no record of what he told people they could do.
==============
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/retired-general-most-if-not-all-killed-by-army-at-ballymurphy-were-not-ira-37900325.html

Here is what was said by Senior British officer 3 days ago regarding Ballymurphy
Sir Geoffrey Howlett, 89, expressed “enormous sympathy” with families whose relatives perished in Ballymurphy in August 1971.One of the highest-ranking former British officers to appear before a Northern Irish inquest into conflict deaths said in Belfast: “I realise now that most, if not all, were not IRA.”
He accepted anyone who was not rioting could not be associated with armed republicans, despite the acknowledged level of support for the IRA in the area.

[parabellum]

and just becasue it happened 50 years ago is no reason not to prosecute if the balance of evidence gives a reasonable chance of conviction.
Just so long as they prosecute each and every member of the IRA/UDF whom they have a case against. Anyone who has been involved in the colour card system knows it is complete bollocks. If you are receiving incoming fire you shoot back to save your skin, reading the card can come later.

[Cows getting bigger]

Oh, I think there is enough evidence to show that Soldier F was being rather liberal in the use of his SLR.

[Capt Scribble]

Realistic chance of a conviction after 47 years of fading memories? Hmmm.
I’m sure that those who were there demonstrating illegally will have crystal clear memories and will be backed up by all their allies.

[etudiant]

Is this not related to the Brexit discussions?

[Kemble Pitts]

I’m sure that those who were there demonstrating illegally will have crystal clear memories and will be backed up by all their allies.
Can you support the suggestion that the demonstration was illegal?

Either way, should we allow British soldiers to kill unarmed British civilians on British streets?

[Capt Scribble]

Its is reported in the press that all marches had been banned until the end of the year. Here is a link, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)
Some elements of an Irish mob in those days was likely to be armed, the IRA was active and at ‘war’ trying to kill soldiers. Ulster was a nasty place to be and those nationalist murderers seem to have got away with their murders.

[racedo]

Is this not related to the Brexit discussions?

Why would they be related to Brexit ? ALL killings in NI have been investigated and people have been charged.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47568823

[racedo]

Its is reported in the press that all marches had been banned until the end of the year. Here is a link, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)
Some elements of an Irish mob in those days was likely to be armed, the IRA was active and at ‘war’ trying to kill soldiers. Ulster was a nasty place to be and those nationalist murderers seem to have got away with their murders.

Why not allow facts get in way of reality.

How many members of OIRA/PIRA/INLA/UVF/UDA/LVF etc etc were charged and went to jail for killings. How many members of Security forces ?

The table below shows 3,593 deaths, Republican Paras - 2001, Loyalist Paras - 983, Security forces - 382. Of the 382, 208 are classified as civilians.

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/cts/fay98.htm#tables

[Stuff]

One must presume that their commander(s) will also be standing in the dock beside them :hmm:

I don't think he will be there. He died in 2003 having been shot during an armed robbery in Kenya.

[langleybaston]

Where is the "public interest" aspect of this prosecution? I accept that there might be a reasonable chance of conviction [although how you chose a jury in NI baffles me] but public interest?
Not as far as I am concerned

[Kemble Pitts]

Its is reported in the press that all marches had been banned until the end of the year. Here is a link, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)
Some elements of an Irish mob in those days was likely to be armed, the IRA was active and at ‘war’ trying to kill soldiers. Ulster was a nasty place to be and those nationalist murderers seem to have got away with their murders.
Interesting article, quite damning of the army and the civilian powers.

I think history is telling us that, rather than the IRA etc. being widely supported before these killings, these killings actually enflamed the situation, massively boosting support for the gun-toting nutters. Nobody was shooting at the soldiers and 13 protesters were shot dead, maybe because someone shouted 'they're likely to be armed corporal, shoot them'; wow. The DPP thinks at least one man is guilty of murder, lets see if they can prove it.

[Kemble Pitts]

Where is the "public interest" aspect of this prosecution? I accept that there might be a reasonable chance of conviction [although how you chose a jury in NI baffles me] but public interest?
Not as far as I am concerned
The families of innocent victims want to see justice, isn't that good enough in this civilised country of ours?

[Gulf Flyer]

Let's have some balance here if some are using Wikipedia as an authoritative source?


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/mcguinness-fired-the-first-shot-on-bloody-sunday-280596.html

[Dougie M]

Whether or not soldier F is culpable, there were many convicted killers from all sides given amnesty after the "Good Friday Agreement" Should not the same terms apply to the British army who were basically there to keep the combatants apart?.

[vascodegama]

Breaker Morant?

[jayteeto]

Kemble Pitts. I’ve no idea if he is guilty or innocent. But you questioned wether the protests were illegal. As soon as petrol bombs and bricks start flying, then I think that’s a breach of the peace and is against the law. Should you shoot? Well if you believe you are about to be killed, then that’s self defence. Cops in the USA claim this all the time and get away with it.
A bunch of young lads, armed to the teeth, were being attacked by a baying mob, it doesn’t matter if they were IRA or Women’s Institute, you had to be standing right there to judge what was illegal or not.
NOTHING condones murder, but you need good reliable evidence to prove it. Reliability might be difficult

[langleybaston]

The families of innocent victims want to see justice, isn't that good enough in this civilised country of ours?

In a word, No.

The Public Interest test is far more nuanced.

[AR1]

Whilst im uncomfortable with British troops deployed with their hands tied, the number of 'he raised the weapon as if to shoot' copycat testimonies don't enhance our reputation.
Here's another angle.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/the-case-for-prosecuting-bloody-sunday-soldier-f/

[alwayslookingup]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[langleybaston]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We know what it means but what is the relevance please?

[Penny Washers]

We know what it means but what is the relevance please?

Let's try a different phrase then:

"The public gets the police force they deserve."

[Kemble Pitts]

In a word, No.

The Public Interest test is far more nuanced.
Well, the NI DPP thinks otherwise.

[beamer]

Just remind me how many para-military 'suspects' were given free cards by Blair ?

[Brewster Buffalo]

Worth a read https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20101017064147/http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/volume01/chapter004/#the-report

Surprised to read that the soldiers fired over 100 times and there was some shooting from the IRA...

[racedo]

Worth a read https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20101017064147/http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/volume01/chapter004/#the-report

Surprised to read that the soldiers fired over 100 times and there was some shooting from the IRA...

" 5.4 We have concluded that the explanation for such firing by Support Company soldiers after they had gone into the Bogside was in most cases probably the mistaken belief among them that republican paramilitaries were responding in force to their arrival in the Bogside. This belief was initiated by the first shots fired by Lieutenant N and reinforced by the further shots that followed soon after. In this belief soldiers reacted by losing their self-control and firing themselves, forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and failing to satisfy themselves that they had identified targets posing a threat of causing death or serious injury. In the case of those soldiers who fired in either the knowledge or belief that no-one in the areas into which they fired was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury, or not caring whether or not anyone there was posing such a threat, it is at least possible that they did so in the indefensible belief that all the civilians they fired at were probably either members of the Provisional or Official IRA or were supporters of one or other of these paramilitary organisations; and so deserved to be shot notwithstanding that they were not armed or posing any threat of causing death or serious injury. Our overall conclusion is that there was a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline among the soldiers of Support Company. "


Reading the summary it appears clear Wilford disobeyed orders and sent people in.

Now the issue of Military supporting Civilian Authorities has been mentioned in the event a Brexit crash in law and order. Based on the events of Bloody Sunday would the UK population want the Army on the streets.

[The Oberon]

Whilst im uncomfortable with British troops deployed with their hands tied, the number of 'he raised the weapon as if to shoot' copycat testimonies don't enhance our reputation.
Here's another angle.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/the-case-for-prosecuting-bloody-sunday-soldier-f/

From the same publication.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/forgive-the-ira-and-we-must-forgive-the-bloody-sunday-soldiers-too/

[orca]

Why would the UK public base its opinion on troop deployment post-Brexit on Bloody Sunday?

[parabellum]

unarmed British civilians

No the were not - McGinnis has admitted as much, claiming he may have fired the first shots, not the Para Regt Lt.

Nobody was shooting at the soldiers and 13 protesters were shot dead,
Yes, people were firing at the soldiers

[racedo]

No the were not - McGinnis has admitted as much, claiming he may have fired the first shots, not the Para Regt Lt.

Yes, people were firing at the soldiers

Nope and Bloody Sunday inquiry was clear on that. Not a single weapon was found on any of those who were shote. Army reacted to another army unit firing,

[racedo]

Why would the UK public base its opinion on troop deployment post-Brexit on Bloody Sunday?
Because it showed units out control and even post this the establishment culture was all units were blameless.

[Asturias56]

Putting ANY troops onto the streets is dangerous. Putting an aggressive outfit such as paratroops even more so

It was clear on the day it was an out-of control reaction and the Brits spent years ignoring it. Now its accepted the legal guys swing into ation

You can't condone murder but it's a bit much that one poor b****** has to carry the can for everyone else

[Harley Quinn]

Nope and Bloody Sunday inquiry was clear on that. Not a single weapon was found on any of those who were shote. Army reacted to another army unit firing,

No weapons were found on the dead, which is a fair reason to believe they were innocent.

Maybe if the Para's had snuffed McGuinness (smiling as he cynically claimed he'd fired the first shots) out at the start, the following years of violence wouldn't have happened.

[orca]

Racedo - whilst I of course respect your opinion that the behaviour of a group of paratroopers on a particular occasion in particular circumstances a significant amount of time ago could effect the British population’s view of generic troop deployment in a generic ‘support to civil power’ scenario - I personally think it’s utter nonsense.

[golfbananajam]

Perhaps one or two people commenting in this thread should Google "Op Banner" and learn about "peaceful" protest NI style, especially duirng the so called "marching season".

A good record to listen to (banned by both MoD and BBC STILL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOuTNE4_m6k
(note this relates to an actual event)

Fully expect this to be moderated out :-(

[Sloppy Link]

Sgt Willetts GC.

[The Nip]

Perhaps one or two people commenting in this thread should Google "Op Banner" and learn about "peaceful" protest NI style, especially duirng the so called "marching season".

A good record to listen to (banned by both MoD and BBC STILL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOuTNE4_m6k
(note this relates to an actual event)

Fully expect this to be moderated out :-(

I hadn't heard that before.

My opinion on this subject is irrelevant.

I will make one comment. Only those who served during OP Banner during the troubles can ever understand just how terrifying and difficult it was. They have my respect.

[racedo]

Perhaps one or two people commenting in this thread should Google "Op Banner" and learn about "peaceful" protest NI style, especially duirng the so called "marching season".
(

The marching season was allowing one side supported by the mechanism of the state, to march triumpantly down streets where people of the other side lived. Nobody cared when they marched in a field but it was akin to allowing a NF march to go through Bradford and claim people have zero right to protest it.

It is on record where RUC aided and abbetted attacks on Civil Rights protestors. The Civil rights that Catholic population sought in NI in 1960's are those rest of UK had for decades but when they sought "equality" of treatment the Govt of NI turned on them.

Government in London could have acted and stopped it all very quickly but sadly it pandered to religious bigots in the Unionist community. Same ones that are propping up Tory Govt now. It is easy in hindsight to identify the key trigger points where intervention could have changed things but the Govt chose not to do it.

There will always be some in Uniform who do whatever they want irrespective of whatever law is in place. Pretending we cannot or will not review means people then view people in Uniform now in the same light. We have seen same from attitude of Black community to police because of police racism from 1960 onwards.

Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday resulted in huge loss of life in the years following it, one side saw the other being able to kill at will and never being called to account.I challenge anybody honestly to state "Were they part of a community such as this, where the Civil Govt were making up laws and using Military to refuse basic right then they would just sit and do nothing.". Once the genie was let out of the bottle then it was never going to go back in.

Bloody Sunday was 50 years in the making and appreciate I am somewhat being a devils advocate here but the history shows again and again when the opportunity was there to do the right thing it was ignored.

[Kemble Pitts]

The marching season was allowing one side supported by the mechanism of the state, to march triumpantly down streets where people of the other side lived. Nobody cared when they marched in a field but it was akin to allowing a NF march to go through Bradford and claim people have zero right to protest it.

It is on record where RUC aided and abbetted attacks on Civil Rights protestors. The Civil rights that Catholic population sought in NI in 1960's are those rest of UK had for decades but when they sought "equality" of treatment the Govt of NI turned on them.

Government in London could have acted and stopped it all very quickly but sadly it pandered to religious bigots in the Unionist community. Same ones that are propping up Tory Govt now. It is easy in hindsight to identify the key trigger points where intervention could have changed things but the Govt chose not to do it.

There will always be some in Uniform who do whatever they want irrespective of whatever law is in place. Pretending we cannot or will not review means people then view people in Uniform now in the same light. We have seen same from attitude of Black community to police because of police racism from 1960 onwards.

Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday resulted in huge loss of life in the years following it, one side saw the other being able to kill at will and never being called to account.I challenge anybody honestly to state "Were they part of a community such as this, where the Civil Govt were making up laws and using Military to refuse basic right then they would just sit and do nothing.". Once the genie was let out of the bottle then it was never going to go back in.

Bloody Sunday was 50 years in the making and appreciate I am somewhat being a devils advocate here but the history shows again and again when the opportunity was there to do the right thing it was ignored.
I tend to agree with that analysis, but I suspect many on this forum won't, hence my starting point of re-imagining it happening now in Venezuela to try to side-step some of the fog of history around it. Without much success...

[OmegaV6]

The posts here, and the comments in the press, seem to imply that the soldiers on the ground fired "out of control" .. which implies a huge number of rounds fired randomly by a large number of soldiers.

Paragraph 166 shows that 107 rounds were fired by 21 soldiers .. an average of about 5 per soldier. 3 soldiers fired double figures , one was 22 , one was 13, one was 12. The majority of the others all fired less than 5, some only 1 or 2.

Whilst I was not there and therefore refuse to cast blame, this is hardly indicative of "out of control", "random firing" as is being implied.

They were very young lads, in a very difficult position, and once "someone" fired the first shot it would be very, very difficult to control ones fear. There but for the grace of god, and wearing the wrong colour uniform, went a very large nummber of folks. I did many an Op Banner run, and the troops we carried all just looked young and scared. I'm hardly surprised at their reaction, if I'm at all honest.