The CAA's answer to the Rain Ice Question!!!!

[RowleyUK]

A few weeks ago i posted this question:


An a/c at 2000' encounters bad icing. What should it do?

descend to the warmer air
carry on until out of cloud
climb to the colder air
turn back

It sparked alot of contreversy as to what the answer was!!!!

After speaking to one of the CAA examiners last week i can confirm that the answer in the exam is 'C'.

His exact words were: "Climb to the colder air, go through the colder air and into the warm air"

[Baldie Man]

Well ****** me with a fishfork!

Thanks for posting the answer RowleyUK.

BM.

[Freak On A Leash]

e) All of the above:D

Reason; it totally depends on what kind of situation you`re in. You normally pick up icing when the temp is around 0 degrees - give or take a few of course.So if you`re flying over water and know that it is warmer below you then this should be a no-brainer.
However, if you`re in IMC and don`t know the cloudbase then I would suggest a climb to a colder temperature where you won`t pick up icing at the same rate.
If, on the other hand, you just entered icing conditions the wise thing to do would be to make a 180 and get outta Dodge - go back to non-icing conditions!
And if you decide to carry on until you`re out of the cloud, well then you probably have a good idea of how big the cloud is (horizontally) and you probably won`t pick up too much ice either. How about flying AROUND the cloud?

All this goes to show that preflight planning should be taken very seriously - know what to expect and you`ve won most of your battles..

It also shows that there are a lot of morons who sit and construct these tests, seemingly to bust you:mad:

[pugzi]

That is ridiculous!!!

Climb to the warmer air above would be better.
That wording is wrong!!.
Yes climb into the warm air above and eventually the colder air, but please, say that then, DO NOT SAY "CLIMB INTO THE COLD AIR ABOVE". You have warmer air above you!!!.
CAA/JAA drive me up the wall with their wordings!!!!.
Why dont they employ people who are competant instructors, who have flown an aeroplane and know what the hell they are talking about!!!.

As a met instructor for many years this makes me fume!!!!

Nuff said.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Alex Whittingham]

Agreed. We complained to the CAA about this querstion when it was included in the July exam. They replied that it was 'assessed as satisfactory and no changes are required'.

[Tinstaafl]

Arrogant twits. :rolleyes: :mad:

BTW I'm not referring to the preceding posters... :p

[Freak On A Leash]

It means you have to kiss their a**es satisfactorily:D

[worzel]

I'm confused. I never was much good at met but I was under the impression that the air cooled at roughly 2 degrees per 1000 feet. So how do you get 'climb to the warmer air'?

worzel

PS. I take it f) switch on the anti-ice and carry on wasn't an option?

[Stick Flying]

It is based on the assumption that the rain (from which the ice is being formed) is coming from a warrm front over the top of colder air. Too bad if this exceeds the service ceiling of the type.

[Freak On A Leash]

No need to be confused about this...
2 degrees C per 1000` is the Standard Lapse Rate.This does not necessarily means that the air cools at this rate, rather than being a "reference point".The cooling of the air has to do with the properties of the air mass - moisture content and such.And when the temperature INCREASES with altitude, then it`s called a Temperature Inversion.I.e. a warm front overtaking/overlying a cold airmass.Characteristics of such weather are; increase in temperature with altitude, lowered visibility, and stable air.

[jessie02]

Alex

I sat that exam in july and got 73% but picked descend into warmer air as other books have indeed said that is ok providing its safe to do so. The actual question didnt say anything about high ground so i assumed it was safe to do so.As the question was a 2 pointer i would have passed !!

Do you think i should complain or would it be a waste of 50quid?

jess

[Canada Goose]

That question sucks big time, unless Rowley UK hasn’t furnished us with all the pre-amble leading up to the question, but from the threads that have followed it would appear that this wasn’t the case. For starters what a/c are we supposed to be flying ? a C-150 or a Dash 8 ? It would make a huge difference on the decision to take.

Here in Canada icing is a big problem in winter, especially when we get warm fronts, and we usually get freezing rain as they approach. Snow that has formed and is falling above the freezing level in the warm air mass falls below the freezing level and melts. It then passes into the underlying cold air mass and becomes super-cooled and falls as freezing rain, which freezes immediately forming clear ice on contact with an object that is at or below freezing, let’s say, ohh I don’t know, an a/c frame! Your options are a) do a 180 and get the hell out of there or b) climb into the warmer air aloft. If you choose b) you’d better be damn sure that you’re a/c has the required performance to get you to altitude quickly as you don’t want to be in a prolonged climb as your time at risk starts to increase dramatically. Typically the freezing rain only occurs in a 2000 or 3000’ band before you break through in to the warmer air, where of course the ice should melt away. If your lucky and your paying attention you might be forewarned of the FZRA as it is often preceded by hail or ice pellets – I speak from experience on that one :o !! However, as ‘the freak’ has pointed out proper flight planning and weather briefings could help avoid such encounters, but as in the situation I nearly ran into the briefing I received prior to engine start for a short local (i.e. 10 NM radius flight of airport) flight in Ottawa informed me that the FZRA was about 80 NM away and would be in Ottawa in an hour or two, and in the words of the briefer “you’ll be able to see it coming” (:eek: still can’t believe he told me that). Well I didn’t see it or the hail, but I heard an eerie metallic pinging sound.

Of course, all the above assumes you KNOW there is warm air aloft, and that’s where an understanding of MET and a detailed Wx briefing are so critical.

Jessie02, bad luck. I’d be tempted to challenge the CAA – ask them “OK so your flying a C-150, you’re telling me I’m to climb through the freezing rain to get to the warm air aloft !!!???????” Good luck if you go for it !!

Cheers,
C.G.

Who won’t be going out doing GA in future when there is a mere hint of FZRA !!;)

[Alex Whittingham]

You can always try an appeal. I doubt they will give it to you but you never know, more appeals seem to have succeeded in the last six months than in the previous six years.

[jessie02]

Alex and Canada goose

Taken your advice and banged off an e mail to the CAA.

Hope they dont charge me 50quid for replying !

let you know if successful.

[The Boy Lard]

The damn thing appeared in todays Met exam!

Several of us have complained using the "in exam" process and the school are pushing for it to be pulled so I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

TBL

[RowleyUK]

The question DID appear as above!


The point of posting this question was so that we all new the answer when it came up!!!!

I know this question has come up many a time on wannabes and no one really new the real answer...Every point above is valid and there are infinite possible answers in the real world!

I know myself that Alex has tried explaining what the real answer is or should be but if that doesn't fit with the CAA then your 2 marks down in the exam!!

However,the question keeps popping up and we all now know what the CAA have now got as their answer!!!

TBL what did you put as the answer?

I dont feel its a case of them having the wrong answer but merely a play on words!!!!Hey but thats just life in the ATPLs so you've got to live with it!!!!

If the playing on words is a big problem then how about this one then (it came up last month in the exam)

Where is the worst icing?

2 to -20
0 to 10
0 to -10
-15 to -46.5

we all know its -2 to -15 so why is it not in there???

the answer is 0 to -10!! again, the answer is from the CAA!


Rowley

[Tinker]

Unfortunately there were questions in the national licence exams that had to be learned verbatum, either because they we vague or because with the information/time available was inadequate.
Rather than gettting frustrated about this particular question think of it as a gift to the future exam candidates (at least the ones who attend a reputable groundschool course).

[Freak On A Leash]

When all else fails...CHEAT!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:
The answer to the above question should be 0 to -10 since it is within the same "general area" as the correct answer.
Again...it seems as if they don`t want any more people in the air.
Well, since "everybody" knows the "correct answer" then you should go ahead and mark it off, but when it comes to the real world you should use what you know.:p

[Howski]

Hello

I sat the Met exam in July and got 73%, I do remember that Q and I always thought that the correct procedure would have been a 180 turn, that is the answer which I put in July and Augusts exam. Im pretty sure the answer is more along the lines of turn back before your controls freeze up :(
Jesse I would be interested to hear the CAA reply to your e-mail.

If anyone sat Met on the 7th of August, what did you think of it?
What answers did you put for the flying through a jetstream with no temp change, the temp at Paris with 8/8 cloud cover, >3,<3 or slightly above 3 c, what happens when flying through an inversion, what is vertical w/s,

Howski

[Howski]

Just movin it up

[FlyingForFun]

******. Wish I'd seen this thread before I sat the exam last week. If they're saying that it's C, that's another one I've got wrong. :(

FFF
-------------

[jessie02]

For the benefit of Howski.

Reply to my challenge to the CAA about this question was that it stands.

So have to retake unfortunately.

So at least we know the answer to this question, but i am sure it will be removed from the bank for september!!

such is life.

good luck
jess

[Alex Whittingham]

The indications are that it was removed after the August sitting.

[Howski]

Hello

Do you mean it was removed from the August Met exams questions ( meaning I have one less Q wrong) or has now been removed from the Q bank ( meaning I will get one less right in my resit).
If that Q had been taken out of the July exam it would probably saved me the grand that I had to pay to come and do the resit, plus I would have still been in a drunken haze from celebrating getting all me exams completed.
Alex........where did you get your info from?

Regards

Howski

[Alex Whittingham]

We have objected to this question before and the examiners have always said that there is nothing wrong with it. After the August sitting I objected again and they have agreed that the question might cause some confusion. The new examiner has referred it back to the JAA Subject Expert Team (SET) and asked them to clarify the aircraft's situation with respect to safety height etc.

Whether this means that it was considered ambiguous enough to lead to a credit of the mark(s) in August or not I don't know. I would not expect it to turn up in the exams again in this form.

The exam section has been undermanned for some time now, one man has been doing the work of three. They now have some fairly capable people in place and are getting to grips with the dodgy questions again. After the July sitting 14 questions were successfully challenged and marks were credited but 13 objections were rejected. The August exam report isn't out yet.

[Hap Hazard]

:confused: In the same vain, during my short and illustrious career as an instructor before moving onto bigger stuff, I used to amazed at the number of imc rated people who didnt give a second glance at freezing levels.
When asked the question whats the 2 most important things things to look out for when flying small A/C in IMC conditions, most people got MSA, but worringly fewer considered freezing levels.
If you are picking up ice with an aircraft not equiped to handle icing conditions and over high ground, you have only one option, hopefully do a 180 and get out of there as quick as possible.
If you are picking up ice in a small single you can find yourself rapidly getting to a point where you no longer have the excess thrust to climb for the increasing weight, and no option to descend.
I have personally been flying a high performance turbo-prop airliner at FL 200 over the north sea, picking up ice with all the anti-ice systems on props set to fine pitch (faster rpm helps throw off ice on blades) and with max continous thrust set we were still going down!
Think before you throw the wife and kids in the back of your C185 with your GPS and your nice "safe" IMC rating......

[Shawny1]

This question was kicking around years ago when I sat my ATPLS back in 1990.
I remembered the answer by thinking that you had to climb because if you decended then the flames and heat from the crash would melt the ice.
Some CAA questions are better learned verbatum and don't try and work it out.
Remember that no matter how hard you kick and scream it's their ball game with their rules, their questions.
Just a sad fact of life in flying.
Keep taking the pills and good luck!!