Brexit - UK CAA or transfer licence...

[GAPilot261087]

As I am sure many of my fellow UK members will be aware, the impending doom and gloom of Brexit is getting uncomfortably close with no real answers to what is going to happen to the UK CAA in the event of a hard Brexit with regard to EASA membership and the ability for UK ATPL's to be recognised by EASA operators.

My understanding is that the UK will continue to recognise EASA ATPL's after Brexit however EASA has not given any indication on wether it will accept UK licences really.

I will hopefully have my ATPL's finished by the end of September under the UK authority but I am considering transfering the results and my Class 1 to the IAA and completing the rest of my training under the Irish authority. The benefits at this stage appear to be that if it does go balls up for the UK, then you will still have an EASA recognised licence which covers more airlines recruitment requirements. There is also the option to transfer it back to the UK CAA should you get a job with a UK carrier such as BA or Loganair etc whereas you may not be able to transfer a UK licence after long to EASA. Best of both it seems this way.

Has anyone else been thinking the same ?

The lack of clarity in this sector has been astonishingly poor.

[GAPilot261087]

Brexit is in 17 days so I think you are a bit late if you plan to finish your ATPL in September?

Hopefully the UK will remain part of EASA and then there won't be this problem anymore

My understanding is that there would be a 2 year transition.

The chances are article 50 will be extended and this saga will go on for a good while and I will be finished hopefully before any major moves are made. It’s a gamble but I’m confident it will be correct. Best outcome is another referendum and Brexit disappears.

I just wondered if anyone anyone else was thinking the same.

[Alex Whittingham]

You should have looked at this months ago, I'm afraid. You have no (zero) chance of transferring to the IAA before 29 March, if you think that Brexit will be extended beyond that time you may well have more time, as you say its now a gamble, good luck.

[GAPilot261087]

I had looked into it months ago Alex but it wouldn't have made a difference because I'm not finished my ATPL's yet and can't finish before the 29th anyways. It's just the ship I'm in unfortunately but I'm sure I ain't the only one.

Given last nights vote, It looks like the Article 50 will now be extended and the chance of Brexit even happening becomes slimmer once more which is good. I may have been unclear but I think what will happen is either a deal of some form being struck where the UK will remain part of EASA for up to 2 years after we leave etc or we don't leave at all and everything goes back to normality. I even spoke to my MP about such outcomes and that is why I have put my money on still being able to transfer licences, medical and exam results by the time I am finished this year .

[Alex Whittingham]

You are probably right. My guess will be that the UK rejoins EASA fairly promptly as (i) EASA want the funding (ii) EASA will want to continue using all the UK seconded personnel and (iii) its in everyone's best interests.

[studcapt]

In general transferring your licence is not a bad idea but as Alex said, you cannot manage in short time. The brexit debate is highly political and when it comes to EASA i dont want to speculate what the future relationship is going to look like but for sure with UK in or out there will be reasonable measures for such cases to be possible, so dont worry too much!
-an bristol.gs graduate from a decade ago :8

[Reverserbucket]

The seconded personnel question is an interesting one Alex as there are many (not all ECAC) stakeholders who would very much like the UK CAA seconded experts to continue in post as they are viewed as not only highly experienced but importantly, it is thought that they moderate some of the more contentious (federalist) views of other policy makers within the Agency. Additionally, a significant proportion of the rule-making staff come from other transport sectors (rail, maritime etc.) and the CAA experts (and others, as they are not only seconded from the CAA e.g. Met Office) are valued for their sectoral expertise.

The problem however lies in the fact that with few exceptions, these seconded personnel have no right to live and work in the EU following the UK's departure - EU citizenship is a requirement for employment by an agency of the EU, and irrespective of whether the UK remains attached somehow to EASA, those that would like to are concerned about their futures without a mechanism to allow them to stay. Interesting as the EU demands all EU citizens in the UK are offered protected status following a UK departure. The same is happening in other EU institutional bodies such as the SESAR Joint Undertaking, SESAR Deployment Manager etc. and rest assured, there has been a rush on Irish Citizenship in recent months. The one exception is Eurocontrol, where the UK remains a founding Member State whose affiliation will not be affected by changes to her relationship with the EU.

GAPilot261087
The lack of clarity in this sector has been astonishingly poor.
I disagree - the UK CAA and EASA have been quite clear how personnel licensing would be affected following the UK's departure from the EU. The fluidity with the departure date, although unknown, might not have been wholly unexpected and may in fact work in your favour if an extension or transition period allows you more time to complete your TK exams. For the reasons stated though, a SOLI transfer might well suit your ambitions to work for an EU operator but will you be eligible from a citizenship perspective? If not, why not stay where you are and aim for Loganair or BA?

[paco]

"Additionally, a significant proportion of the rule-making staff come from other transport sectors (rail, maritime etc.)"

That explains the occasional use of the word "operator" when they mean "pilot".

[Reverserbucket]

Quite paco. CBA's and investment plans are often based on frameworks developed for other sectors as well and don't always compliment traditional aviation thinking. There is pressure to collaborate with other NAA's outside of Europe as well and again, just because it sounds like a good idea doesn't necessarily mean it will be suitable within the EU context; electronic FCL's (China) and CAT Multi-crew medical privilege's beyond 65 (NZ and Canada). Just sometimes it's good to have a sensible and proportionate competency based opinion on 'new' ideas and the UK staff are thought highly in this regard.

The Commission is similar although Policy Officers are rotated between units every so many years such that they never become overly (or in some cases slightly) familiar with a particular sector. This is also designed to protect them from corruption of course. It's not uncommon to find a policy officer or higher who has spent a three years at DG-MOVE in aviation and who has reached a level of understanding that is commensurate with industry expectations being moved to rail and conversely, succeeded by someone from renewable energy or maritime etc. this in itself could be positive but the resultant diversion of resources required for training is wasteful in my view. And guess where some of the seconded expertise comes from to deliver this training....

[paco]

As the Irish say, "If I was going there, sir, I wouldn't start from here..... " :)

[girlpower]

What I would like to know is why my existng set of 14 UK EASA Exam passes become void in the eyes of EASA and why one can’t simply do an ICAO( previous U.K. EASA) to EASA conversion as one would do with FAA to EASA after Brexit?

Those previous 14 exams were set by the various member states. How can they become invalid from one day to the next? This really makes no sense.

[paco]

Any exams passed before brexit will be recognised

[girlpower]

Oh I see,. Thank you for clarifying that Paco. Have you possibly got a link which references the source of that info?

I’m currently flying a biz jet for a European AOC holder and have missed the boat on a SOLI transfer for various reasons. Currently have a fATPL. Am I correct in assuming that I would just need to do a skills test on my current Type for a conversion to a new EASA Licence?

Thanks again.

[paco]

That's what we were told at the last CTKI meeting at the CAA. More will likely be revealed on the 5th at the next one.

I don't deal with flying matters but I would say that was correct, if the skill test was done outside the UK when (or if) brexit finally happens

[Reverserbucket]

Not sure about that - a non-UK TRE conducting an LPC or otherwise for a UK licence holder post Brexit wouldn't be possible without change of SOLI. The base document would have to be Part-FCL so in this case, a Part-FCL CPL/IR with ATPL TK credit would be required, as a UK issued Part-FCL licence will become a UK national one post departure. This might offer some respite though Regulation (EU) 2019/502 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0502&from=EN)

[paco]

There you go - thanks for that

[girlpower]

Thank you both. I couldn't find any reference in that document which grants UK licence holders to operate EU registered aircraft. I think I'm a bit buggered now. Damn

[Reverserbucket]

There is no reference but Article 13 makes provision for recognition of certificates and licences for continuance of UK operations under the Chicago Convention (ICAO) and may offer an olive branch to those who have not completed a SOLI transfer from when the UK leaves to either March 2020 or until a comprehensive agreement applies. There are others in the same boat and I would recommend contacting FCL at Gatwick.