FO flight time on ET302

[Okihara]

According to Ethiopian who published this on their Twitter account, the FO had 200 hours of flight time:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/578x664/d1txgrjxqaidnz__980d81a0c98389b54b1fa684453a38deb42c482a.png

Surely that must be some sort of typo. Or is it customary to quote time on type alone? I find that rather disturbing of the airline to publish this at this very time.

[Chesty Morgan]

What's wrong with having 200 hours?

[ericsson16]

Boeing has a problem here,not the 200 hour man.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Boeing has a problem here,not the 200 hour man.
It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that very low-hour copilots are not so much of a help in the cockpit of a multi-crew aircraft. Even copilots with a couple of thousand hours can be well behind the aircraft for their first few weeks on line.
I wonder, in the event of an emergency (whatever its origin), how much useful support Mahommad Nur could have offered the Captain?

[ericsson16]

Lion Air Flight 610 crashed into the Java Sea 12 minutes after takeoff.ET 302, crashed just 6 minutes after taking off.Nothing to link both events,Really!

[Okihara]

As always, you all make relevant points. I think that the similarities between the two crashes are more than obvious to anyone and I'm not suggesting that the 200 hours FO was ultimately the reason why the plane went down.

Let me rephrase just to make my point clear: Just how does one become FO at a national airline with just 200 hours under the belt when it takes between 200 and 250 hours to get a CPL? Does that suggest that some national airlines out there are happy to recruit pilots with virtually no experience as a commercial pilot and put them in the right seat? Unless that bloke did his CPL in a 737, what experience can he really count on should the captain become incapacitated? Isn't that a safety concern to some of you?

If maths aren't your strong suit: just hours ago, that copilot was still turning the carb. heat off before landing (and again: nothing wrong with that, just a fact).

Horatio Leafblower is on point:
I wonder, in the event of an emergency (whatever its origin), how much useful support Mahommad Nur could have offered the Captain?

There's definitely an argument to make that a more experienced pilot in the cockpit wouldn't have a hurt the chances for a safe outcome of the aircraft.

[ericsson16]

Let me rephrase just to make my point clear:What ever is happening here is so instant that the flight crew are immobilised,powerless,paralysed.

[pilotchute]

Europe and many other countries allow pilots of part 142 schools to get a CPL with 200 hours. Australia allows students of integrated courses the ability to gain a CPL with only 150 hours. The 150 hour course doesn't include an instrument rating.

[Okihara]

Let me rephrase just to make my point clear:What ever is happening here is so instant that the flight crew are immobilised,powerless,paralysed.
No doubt you're a good a pilot, no doubt you're probably right, and no doubt you're missing the point of this thread, namely: how do you land a FO job with 200 hours with a national airline?

[LeadSled]

No doubt you're a good a pilot, no doubt you're probably right, and no doubt you're missing the point of this thread, namely: how do you land a FO job with 200 hours with a national airline?
You start off as a cadet pilot ( by whatever name) with the airline, I would have thought that was obvious.
Since the 1960's, with many/most European airlines and many other carriers, cadets in the RHS of an RPT aircraft with 250 hours has been the (starting) rule, rather than the exception.
The whole point of the MPL was to produce a 250 or so hour pilot much better prepared for said RHS --- now a well proven path.
Tootle pip!!

PS: Most airlines do not regard a couple of years of single pilot bush-bashing in FAR 23 aircraft as great preparation for an airline window seat --- and, indeed, where most of them come from, there is no such source of pilots, anyway.

[Centaurus]

No doubt you're a good a pilot, no doubt you're probably right, and no doubt you're missing the point of this thread, namely: how do you land a FO job with 200 hours with a national airline?

Its all about statistics. The chances of the captain being incapacitated and the 200 hour second in command copilot having to take over control and fly the aircraft solo, is so remote as to be not even considered. In addition the vast majority of the second in command's training for the type rating is based upon automatic pilot skills. . Manual handling skills taught in the simulator are relegated to an absolute minimum in order to reduce total simulator time and thus costs. . Handling skills gained or taught during line training are the same - SFA. It's all about button punching. So with handling skills training reduced to low priority by both the regulator, the manufacturer and the operator, then a 200 hour second in command is statistically acceptable. It has been happening in Europe for many years with minimum disruption to services.

[VH DSJ]

No doubt you're a good a pilot, no doubt you're probably right, and no doubt you're missing the point of this thread, namely: how do you land a FO job with 200 hours with a national airline?

They obviously have a pilot cadetship like other national airlines do. https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/EAA . And with the MPL where the majority of your hours is in the simulator, you only need about 100 hours in an actual airplane. I'm not in favour of the MPL and would much prefer pilots getting licensed through the traditional pathways with GA experience and all, but that's what's possible these days and the regulators allow it.

[Okihara]

Well well... This is all rather scary I should say. If that's what the MPL curriculum entails, then I can't see how either 200 hours or 10k hours of the same push button skills can ever match those of a few hundred hours of stick and rudder bush flying. It's also puzzling to think that a MPL holder can be entrusted to fly a 737 plus the safety of all souls on board but wouldn't be legally allowed to fly solo in a C-172.

[Ollie Onion]

Well you might be puzzled by it but heir are thousands of MPL pilots flying around the world and they more often than not are not on aircraft that crash so just because Australia doesn’t do it doesn’t make it wrong. I have seen 200 hour pilots fly an A320 better than ex-military highly experienced pilots ....... and vice versa.

[Ilyushin76]

As always, you all make relevant points. I think that the similarities between the two crashes are more than obvious to anyone and I'm not suggesting that the 200 hours FO was ultimately the reason why the plane went down.

Let me rephrase just to make my point clear: Just how does one become FO at a national airline with just 200 hours under the belt when it takes between 200 and 250 hours to get a CPL? Does that suggest that some national airlines out there are happy to recruit pilots with virtually no experience as a commercial pilot and put them in the right seat? Unless that bloke did his CPL in a 737, what experience can he really count on should the captain become incapacitated? Isn't that a safety concern to some of you?

If maths aren't your strong suit: just hours ago, that copilot was still turning the carb. heat off before landing (and again: nothing wrong with that, just a fact).

Horatio Leafblower is on point:


There's definitely an argument to make that a more experienced pilot in the cockpit wouldn't have a hurt the chances for a safe outcome of the aircraft.


First of, it just cant be bare 200 hours on the F/O's log. There has to be 'some' line training on the 737 after the guy passed his simulators. So the figures may be a bit off. If they were flying with a 200 hours rookie on board and this was a training flight (which it was not apparently) there is supposed to be a safety F/O on board.

I'd like to point out that the deadliest crashes in the history of aviation were a result of highly experienced (in some cases decorated) pilots who forgot their professional duties and ended up where they did. It's sad, but that's how this profession is.

I don't know how anyone react differently to an emergency they never saw before. But yes, I do know of an instant or two in a particular airline when the F/O took over and landed the aircraft amidst a complete cockpit incapacitation and crm breakdown on finals on one of the busiest airports in the world due to Captain incapacitation, without breaking any SOPs. So I'd not be quick to judge the inexperienced guys.

[machtuk]

A modern up to the minute new Airliner crashed killing all onboard with two qualified drivers at the wheel/s. That opens a whole Pandora's box as to why?
Investigators will look at them ALL!
Crew, broken down individually covering a huge raft of sub conditions such as fatigue, health/medical inc mental. Experience, training etc etc.
Airframe serviceability
Engines.
Fuel, type & condition.
Maintenance especially recent Maint including washing of the airframe.
Sabotage/interference. Remember the Ethiopian Flt 961 B767 hijack some years ago?. Hijacked from exactly the same route as this crash!
Weather.
It could be anyone of these or multiple, Boeing am sure are somewhat nervous as they should be!

Hope they get to the bottom of the cause, nobody wins here, we just have a lot of devastated people! & mass confusion:-(

[Capn Bloggs]

I don't know how anyone react differently to an emergency they never saw before.
I would expect that someone with more experience would react better than someone with less...

[ericsson16]

China grounds all Boeing 737MAX aircraft? ? News In Flight (http://newsinflight.com/2019/03/11/china-grounds-all-boeing-737max-aircraft/?fbclid=IwAR1Lm1zs9ykhfxlnDBGLIArJdjwPRqFoM3eTNU-dXsI8s_LHctdHnoCSFFQ)

[Okihara]

I have seen 200 hour pilots fly an A320 better than ex-military highly experienced pilots ....... and vice versa.

Solid argument here.

[Fluke]

If he had 200 hours most airlines would require a safety pilot or at least a training captain to be operating.
200 hours does not make a poor FO but it can make the upgrade in a few years difficult..

[cessnapete]

BA and before BEA have taken 250 hour F/O (not MPL) straight out of flying college onto two crew aircraft. Trident B737 A320 B757, for many many years with no safety problems. Many retired now as Wide Body/ Concorde Capts after long safe carreers. It’s training, not 1500 hours as an Instructor on a Cessna 150 that matter.
Proper stringent initial selection, subsequent training, and route mentoring, not total hours, are the important ingredients.
Although 200 hours quoted in this accident seem very low. The Cadets mentioned above after CPL/IR and 50 sector Route Training would be nearer 300+hours before released to normal Line ops. and rostered only with experienced Capts. for the first few months.

[Ilyushin76]

I would expect that someone with more experience would react better than someone with less...

I do agree with you but you'd be surprised how sometimes thats not the case :)

[Ilyushin76]

If he had 200 hours most airlines would require a safety pilot or at least a training captain to be operating.
200 hours does not make a poor FO but it can make the upgrade in a few years difficult..

Agreed 100% :)

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

What's wrong with having 200 hours?
Nothing. It sounds better than this (from the African media):
His first officer, Ahmednur Mohamednur, had several flight hours under his belt.

[B2N2]

If he had 200 hours most airlines would require a safety pilot or at least a training captain to be operating.
200 hours does not make a poor FO but it can make the upgrade in a few years difficult..

Two years - 1500 hrs on type
Three years - 2250 hrs on type
Four years - 3000 hrs on type

So what’s difficult exactly?

[Checkboard]

I flew GA in Oz, joined Ansett and ended up now flying in Europe. I fly with 200 hour FOs all the time - and they are great at what they do.

Its all about statistics. The chances of the captain being incapacitated and the 200 hour second in command copilot having to take over control and fly the aircraft solo, is so remote as to be not even considered.
Not so - they are fully qualified FOs and perfectly capable of handling an incap. Indeed we had one a couple of years ago and the FO diverted and landed without problems.

How many hours does a wings graduate in the RAAF have?

[MCDU2]

I had 200hrs once. What I really want to know is how I can be considered "commendable".

[First_Principal]

I'm not sure I'd necessarily take as correct, nor 'official', something that appears on a social media posting.

It's also fairly soon after the event, and the supposed data may not have been cross-checked to ensure accuracy.

Additionally there is - to my mind - a question that arises in regard to Ethiopian's SOP's with reference to crew experience...

For anyone interested I posted in more detail here (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/619272-ethiopian-airliner-down-africa-27.html#post10414357)

FP.

[sigler]

I do agree with you but you'd be surprised how sometimes thats not the case :)

yeah, but a good 2,000-hour pilot will always react better than a good 200-hour pilot, just like a 2,000-hour pilot will react better than a 200-hour bad pilot. Experience does not make a bad pilot good, but it does make any pilot better than their own low-hour version.

[junior.VH-LFA]

I flew GA in Oz, joined Ansett and ended up now flying in Europe. I fly with 200 hour FOs all the time - and they are great at what they do.


Not so - they are fully qualified FOs and perfectly capable of handling an incap. Indeed we had one a couple of years ago and the FO diverted and landed without problems.

How many hours does a wings graduate in the RAAF have?

160. Then conversion on to type.