Black Hawk crash Tennessee Feb 2019

[heli1]

Black Hawk down FH1100 pilot? You don't know how true thst was....one crashed on its way to the show!

Blackhawk helicopter crashes in Moore County with 2 on board, pilot taken by LifeFlight for treatment (https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/02/28/tullahoma-coffee-county-helicopter-crash-two-injured-minor-field/3020927002/)



The helicopter that crashed outside Tullahoma, Tennessee, on Thursday afternoon was on the way to an industry trade show in Atlanta.

Arista Aviation Services confirmed Thursday evening that two of its employees were on board a HH-60L Black Hawk helicopter when it crashed in a "deserted" part of Moore County.

As of Thursday evening, the pilots were yet to be identified, pending notification of next of kin.

Both were experienced pilots, Arista said.

One pilot was transported by LifeFlight to Vanderbilt University Medical Center from Tullahoma Airport. The individual reportedly had neck and back injuries.

The other was transported by emergency services to a local hospital for evaluation.

The helicopter went down in a privately-owned field five miles south of Tullahoma, according to Tullahoma spokesperson Winston Brooks confirmed.

At 3:16 p.m., the Coffee County Communications Center received a crash complaint from one of the two pilots, Brooks said in an emailed release.

According to the FAA, the helicopter in question was a Sikorsky HH60

"The FAA will investigate, and the National Transportation Safety Board will determine the probable cause of the accident. We will release the aircraft registration after local authorities release the names of the aircraft occupants," an emailed statement from the FAA said.

Metro Moore County Emergency Management Agency took charge of the scene Thursday evening.

Arista is based in Enterprise, Alabama. A release from the company said it provides "maintenance and modifications to an assortment of rotor wing platforms operated both domestically and internationally for a variety of missions, which include firefighting and construction."

This coverage is ongoing, check back for updates.

Reach reporter Mariah Timms at [email protected] or 615-259-8344 and on Twitter @MariahTimms (http://www.twitter.com/MariahTimms).



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[venderson]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=222396

[malabo]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=222396
Didn’t burn, almost made it to an airport. Fuel starvation? Kinda quiet for a rumor forum.

[SASless]

The 64 Dollar Question is why did it crash in Tennessee....if it was routing from Enterprise, Alabama?

The news articles have not identified the point of takeoff as far as I can tell....so until that is known for sure....routing questions will have to be held.

Was it fuel exhaustion or starvation....two very different issues.

Bad Weather in the area....and trying to scud run and thus going far slower than planned maybe?

Lots of speculation can be made with the scant information available.

[FH1100 Pilot]

The RUMOR from Heli-Expo was that they encountered worsening weather and perhaps waited a little too long to...what's the expression? "Land the damn helicopter." They chose what appeared to be a suitable site. It wasn't. When they did put it down, trees began piercing the belly of the ship (see photo) and it rolled over. Unfortunate accident. But hey, accidents happen. Just glad the crew wasn't more seriously hurt or killed. I'm sure there are other UH-60's out there that can substitute for this one.

[JohnDixson]

SAS and FH, depending on the route from Enterprise to Tullahoma and the speed/altitude profile, gross weight, fuel quantity may well have been a factor. One can stretch out an S-70 ( more than you think, actually ) by getting to 10-12k and flying best range speed, but from the posts here to date, that doesn’t appear to be what was going on.

Another thought occurred: Tullahoma is on a direct route from Ft. Campbell to Atlanta, and there may have been Arista business there, thence proceed to ATL. Just a thought. That would change the thinking re fuel.

[SASless]

John, That would have required them to file and fly IFR I am thinking due to the weather. Assumes my recollection of the prevailing weather is remotely correct.

A Direct Flight from Campbell to Atlanta would be right at 265 NM.

[JohnDixson]

Several of the posts noted Wx but without specifics and I haven’t looked it up. If they were really going from Campbell to ATL, the alternate requirements may have preculded IFR. The UH-60 flies fine in clouds and ice, but without the wings and (2) 230 gallon aux tanks, IFR cross country is laborious. ( probably there’s a better word, but also probably one that isn’t polite ).

Too many unknowns here. Might have been one of those helicopter vs weather situations that changed enroute, and a little luck was needed, which wasn’t forthcoming. I know, I know-don’t ever get yourself in that position, but there is another side to the story, and that hasn’t surfaced yet.

[the coyote]

One can stretch the fuel a long way by shutting one engine down too.

[Same again]

One can stretch the fuel a long way by shutting one engine down too.

Good God man - you can't say things like that. EASA civilians read this and may faint in shock.

[SASless]

But dear boy....there is no place on the Checklist or EOP's for such kinds of thinking!

I suppose there are some who think an Empty Hawk....that happens to be low on fuel will not quite happily fly on a single engine.

In the Twin Engine Wessex of yesterday year....was that not a common practice when on a long distance ferry flight?

[Droop Snoot]

The brown coloration of the ground near the top of the cabin section of the fuselage suggests the main rotor head was turning for a few seconds after the fuselage came to rest, excavating soil and placing it on the surrounding forest litter. Could have been only a few rotations, but the rotational inertia would be low at that point, assuming the main rotor blades (not visible in the photo) had already been shed.

[Lonewolf_50]

The UH-60 flies fine in clouds and ice, but without the wings and (2) 230 gallon aux tanks, IFR cross country is laborious. ( probably there’s a better word, but also probably one that isn’t polite Yeah, no legs. Gotta have them tanks.

[megan]

In the Twin Engine Wessex of yesterday year....was that not a common practice when on a long distance ferry flight? It was in the offshore business in Oz SAS, all approved by the regulator. Had to be above a certain altitude in order to get the shut down one restarted in the event of a failure in the one you were using, resulted in something like a 25% reduction in fuel burn if I recall correctly what I was told. I think it was used on pax flights as well, because of the range they were operating.

[malabo]

Still gotta be a story here. Pilots weren’t a couple of Brazilian kids with R22s, nor Nigerian pilots in 139’s finding the ground by Braille. From the drone footage you can see clear landing areas within 100yrds. Looking at the location on google earth it is a patchwork of fields, with the occasional stand of trees, not some endless west coast forest or Amazon jungle.

[LRP]

Still gotta be a story here. Pilots weren’t a couple of Brazilian kids with R22s, nor Nigerian pilots in 139’s finding the ground by Braille. From the drone footage you can see clear landing areas within 100yrds. Looking at the location on google earth it is a patchwork of fields, with the occasional stand of trees, not some endless west coast forest or Amazon jungle.

I have no factual information on this accident.
I'm going to take a guess and say that the visibility got so poor that they took the best spot that they could see. Good on them, there's more UH-60's out there to replace that one.

[Flyting]

Reports say:
both men are retired U.S. Army pilots with 35 years experience flying Black Hawks.

[SASless]

I'm going to take a guess and say that the visibility got so poor that they took the best spot that they could see.

In the terrain described....it never gets too bad to see and LAND.

As a dedicated Rud Scunner, I saw occasions I could not get up and over a fifty foot power line or had to hover for a minute and blow some of the fog away... and more than once I landed in the middle of no where and shut down waiting for an improvement in the Visibility.

I have been in very similar circumstances as this Crew....ferry flight over new ground....thus a stranger to the area and ran low on fuel....but ALWAYS landed with enough to get to the nearest location that had Jet Fuel.

Worse case scenario....you call for the Fuel Truck to come to you....after you park next to a roadway of some sort.

The key was to go slow as needed and always know where the next fuel point was and always use that as your "Bingo Fuel State" plus that VFR Reserve Fuel you are required to maintain.

Never making flying into the Reserve a habit can be life saving in the end.

If you land out with Reserve Fuel in the tank....you never run out and wind up in the Trees or worse.

The Accident Report will be interesting reading on this one.....and at this time there is not enough information to fairly assess the cause of the crash.

[retoocs]

Watch for the tail...still in the tree.

https://youtu.be/a3DtJknHuGw

[FH1100 Pilot]

Look, this isn't Lion Air or Ethiopian. It's not that complicated. They ran into bad weather and decided to put it down (good news). But they waited a little too long (bad news), chose the wrong site and trashed the ship (worse news). Big deal, it happens. The best news is that they both got out of it and lived to fly another day. Arista will build up another Blackhawk.

[SASless]

Could it be they just simply stuck the tail rotor into the trees as they tried to slow down when they got too fast for the visibility they had...and wound up where they did.

Big deal, it happens.

Errrrrrr.....yes....very big deal!

If nothing happened mechanically that caused the descent into the trees that destroyed the aircraft.....then in my view that is a "big deal" as someone has to pay for the loss of the aircraft and any revenue it might have produced.

It is a good thing the crew survived....now they can tell us what really happened.
​​​​​​​

[JohnDixson]

Anyone know what sort of nav equipment they put in their 60?

[FH1100 Pilot]

SAS, there was a time when you had blocked or put me on "Ignore" or some such. While I am honored that you once again read my posts, I dearly wish you had kept ignoring them. You (still) seem very argumentative. And I have no wish to argue with you. You should have been at Heli-Expo. You might have learned a thing or two.

If that's even possible at your age.

[SASless]

Far be it for me to take advantage of your youth and in-experience.....so do not look for much of a response to your posts...something you must have gotten used to over the past few Years.

But since you said I was "argumentative".....lets go forth in that mode.

Exactly why do you think writing off a Blackhawk Helicopter is no big deal?

Please do explain your reasoning for that comment if you will.

[RVDT]

The prognosis here seems to be that it was weather-related apparently.

Fairly simple decisions to be made. Begs the question that if simple decisions cant be made how do you get in the front seat of a 60?

Hope is not a strategy.

[[email protected]]

RVDT - agreed, it starts with the met appreciation and route study and finishes with the decision to stay at home or turn back or land before fuel becomes an issue.

[FH1100 Pilot]

The prognosis here seems to be that it was weather-related apparently.

Fairly simple decisions to be made. Begs the question that if simple decisions cant be made how do you get in the front seat of a 60?

Hope is not a strategy.

It's because helicopter flying is not done in clinical conditions or a laboratory. We're constantly faced with dynamic situations that don't always match up with our best prior planning. Individually, we think (assume?) that we'll always make the correct decisions before and during each flight. But as much as we hate to admit it, we don't always do the right thing every time. The window for arriving helicopters at Heli-Expo was small. All pilots flying to the show knew that. The amount of pressure that was induced upon them or that they induced on themselves obviously varied.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Helicopters are VERY EASY to crash. They get easier to fly as we accrue more experience and proficiency, and because of that we may think that we have some limited protection against having an accident (*I* would never do something dumb, oh no!), but the fact remains that helicopters do not ever become any less-easy to crash. High-time pilots keep proving this over and over. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that we should simply accept accidents as part of our industry, but we must realize that humans are going to be...you know...human. In other words, if it happened to them, it could certainly happen to me.

[malabo]

it happened to them, it could certainly happen to me.

FH1100 don't be so hard on yourself. Cross-country flight, flat ground, airport every 20 miles and fields every 100yards. Any of my 90 hour students could do it navigating with an iPhone and a bedsheet over the instrument panel. Nav equipment and Met don't matter. Weather is what is in front of you. If it drops you back up to the last airport, or at worst land in a field I suppose. That's why this is such a mystery with two experienced and well-trained ex-military crew. Question you brought up through: is it really ok to bent Uncle Sam's hardware and just grab another off the shelf? In my slim-margin dog-eat-dog commercial world, any mishap can break a company.

I'll add a couple of map pics so everyone knows the area.


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[SASless]

But as much as we hate to admit it, we don't always do the right thing every time. The window for arriving helicopters at Heli-Expo was small. All pilots flying to the show knew that. The amount of pressure that was induced upon them or that they induced on themselves obviously varied.


Are you saying these two Birds made poor decisions because of "pressure" being applied by someone to deliver the goods or else?

Or are you saying they themselves "pressured" themselves into making very poor decisions....in this case it had to be a series of bad decisions to fetch them up into a situation that resulted in the destruction of a Helicopter and damn near killed them as well.

They are very fortunate it was a Blackhawk built to the Military Standard rather than a lesser standard.


Malabo.....the crew was beginning to approach some hilly ground around Chattanooga area so they would have been transitioning from reasonably flat ground to some steeper hills and more wooded areas than before.

Your Sat View shows that to some degree.

Last time I checked...control of the weather was way above any Pilot's Pay Grade.

If the weather is too bad....then that is just too bad.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Question you brought up through: is it really ok to bent Uncle Sam's hardware and just grab another off the shelf? In my slim-margin dog-eat-dog commercial world, any mishap can break a company.


Obviously it's not "okay" to trash a helicopter. But what do we do, shoot them? Send them to Viet Nam? The fallout for the operator will remain to be seen. That's really none of our concern here. (But let's hope that Arista had hull insurance on the thing.)

We can assume that these guys were not inexperienced drivers. None of these firefighting companies are transitioning their 206 pilots into the right seat of the UH-60. We do not know what caused them to press on so far into deteriorating conditions. It may be something as simple as, "Yeaaaah, we probably should've turned around sooner, but we thought we were okay. And then suddenly it all turned to sh*t and...well, you know..." At that point it did not matter whether it was an S-92 or an R-22. Anyone who says it's never happened to them hasn't been flying very long...or maybe has forgotten what it's like when your aircraft has to be at a certain place at a certain time, when you're low on fuel as soon as you take off, and YOU are the guy who's supposed to be getting it there. And then the weather turns crappy...REALLY crappy, and you're sitting there, nervous as a whore in church, thinking, "Ya know, this really isn't turning out so well," and wondering why you ever became a helicopter pilot in the first place?

It's easy to sit in our armchairs and say that they should have turned around sooner, or should have landed, or should not even have gotten out of bed that morning. But we weren't there. It's a horrible situation, yeah. But nobody got badly hurt or killed, and the only thing damaged on the ground were some trees...and a replaceable helicopter. Learn from it and move on.

[Lonewolf_50]

and you're sitting there, nervous as a whore in church, thinking, "Ya know, this really isn't turning out so well," and wondering why you ever became a helicopter pilot in the first place? That only happened with a hydraulic failure at night trying to land on a ship in bad weather.

Having almost never gone to church, and thus not knowing one could find whores there, I became a helicopter pilot because ... hmm, let's not drift this thread.

Anyway, glad they walked away from that one. Coulda been worse.

[FH1100 Pilot]

That only happened with a hydraulic failure at night trying to land on a ship in bad weather.

Having almost never gone to church, and thus not knowing one could find whores there, I became a helicopter pilot because ... hmm, let's not drift this thread.

Anyway, glad they walked away from that one. Coulda been worse.

Well Lone, as they say in church - "Amen!"

[Flyting]

Learn from it and move on.
these guys should have learnt this lessen many many moons ago. It’s not that they’re 100 hr 22 drivers...!
This accident is a lesson for newbies.

[[email protected]]

Are you saying these two Birds made poor decisions because of "pressure" being applied by someone to deliver the goods or else?

Or are you saying they themselves "pressured" themselves into making very poor decisions....in this case it had to be a series of bad decisions to fetch them up into a situation that resulted in the destruction of a Helicopter and damn near killed them as well. Sasless - the exact apportioning of the 'pressures' applied is arguable, the fact that they ended up crashing isn't.
What links the two is poor decision making.

When faced with rising ground and deteriorating weather coupled with minimal fuel reserves, I would like to think that any pilot with wings or a licence would turn round, divert or land - sadly the number of CFIT accidents doesn't support that thought.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

When faced with rising ground and deteriorating weather coupled with minimal fuel reserves, I would like to think that any pilot with wings or a licence would turn round, divert or land - sadly the number of CFIT accidents doesn't support that thought.

Crab, I am not sure that was the line you took on the SAS A109 Road Rage thread! Although I agree you on this occasion.

[SASless]

DB,

Two different events with two different outcomes with two very different fact situations.

The UK incident did not involve in an aircraft being destroyed and all onboard being injured....not even remotely close to that.

The UK incident was investigated and from what we know appears to have been considered within established SOP's, etc.

I once was in a very similar situation as the Blackhawk crew.....Winter weather system with icing and snow/sleet/freezing rain....and a ferry flight from South Texas to the Washington DC Area to replace a U/S Bell 412 at a EMS Operation.

I was not released to depart until late in the afternoon.....crawled along in the muck until the weather improved enough to climb to height to do an ILS into Memphis where I spent the night.

Next day I did the scud running thing...until very close to Dulles International.....slid over the last high ridge and down into the clear.

Crossing the mountains with freezing participation IFR was not a choice thus if I was to deliver the aircraft.....it was muck around at tree top level.

I never ran low on fuel, always knew where my fuel. stops were at all times, flew slow enough to avoid obstacles, and always had a diversion available.

The Blackhawk Crew were confronted with somewhat similar problems.

But....for some reason....they let themselves get caught out....and had a very bad result.

The UK Crew did not.

Why don't you analyze the two incidents and tell us what the two crews did differently and how that affected the outcome of the two flights.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

SAS, its easy to believe that we can sit back in our armchairs and analyse as you suggest. However, real life, as you so eloquently anecdote, is somewhat different. Most of us have had similar experiences to that portrayed in both incidents.
However, there are rules governing this kind of flying and in both cases I think we would be hard pressed to demonstrate compliance.
I disagree with your understanding of the A109 crew. I do not believe they were found to be "innocent" of anything.
So what is the difference between your story, mine and the myriad of others who have ended up in ****e weather and learned the "easy" way. Well, some of it is luck. But in the words of the great Gary Player, "The harder I practice, the luckier I get". So I think we can all agree that experience and skill play their part.
However, sometimes perfectly competent pilots end up pushing beyond the acceptable limits and their luck runs out. I believe that is just a stone cold fact.
The only real defence against this kind of outcome is to avoid getting into the situation in the first place AND to recognise and accept that the limits are SOLELY there to protect us from our own stupidity/over-enthusiasm/lack of experience/external pressure etc, ect.
What astounds me in most of these cases is the posters who simply cannot accept that there are rules, OM procedures and plain common dog sense that should be followed/applied/respected as the first step towards avoiding an early bath.
Without wanting to thread creep or indeed "harp" on ad-infinitum, given what I write here does not provide latitude to fly along a public road, in peace time, 10 feet off the ground, in fog close to families in their cars. Its a madness that needs to be labelled for what it actually is!
I do not know anything of this incident. However, if it transpires that an expensive helicopter was wrecked and people seriously injured, just because they wanted to get to a trade show then...………………….

[FH1100 Pilot]

"Well I was in a similar situation and I made all the correct decisions and I turned around and I didn't crash, so those bums are just total schmucks and I don't know how they ever got a pilot's license."

I'll tell ya, if I had a dime for every time I've heard something similar in my career, I'd be Donald Trump. We are ALL better than the pilots who crashed, right? Because we didn't crash, of course! It's so eeeeeeeaaaasy!

[Bell_ringer]

We are ALL better than the pilots who crashed, right? Because we didn't crash, of course! It's so eeeeeeeaaaasy!

The insurance company would probably think that those who haven't crashed are better, that's how the system works.

It is easy to say an accident can happy to anyone, this much is true. However accidents only happen to some people not to everyone and there are various reasons for that most which have been documented in your preferred human performance manual.
Those that stick within what is permitted and choose to operate within their abilities tend to avoid accidents.
The trick is realising if you avoided one due to luck or discipline.

[SASless]

FH.... As the Cowboy Wisdom quotes remind us.... "It ain't bragging if you done it!".

Making the "right decisions" is the right thing to do...or to be done.... depending upon if you are talking about the past, present, or future.

As much as it offends your sensitivities.....it appears two of us missed missed many great opportunities to do that as evidenced by the crashed Blackhawk.

As in all of these events there are lessons to be learned.... and all too often re-learned....and put into practice.

How many opportunities did these two Pilots, both experienced US Army Helicopter Pilots, have to make just one single "Right Decision" and managed to screw it up big time?

What was it that caused them to finally wind up laying on their side in a crashed helicopter?

If we find out that it was a mechanical failure then they get a Pass....but if it as the circumstantial evidence available is as thought.....they really did mess up big time.

[JimEli]

If we find out that it was a mechanical failure then they get a Pass....


Doesn't that set the bar kinda of low?

[JimL]

The promotion of scud-running is quite astonishing.

[FH1100 Pilot]

The insurance company would probably think that those who haven't crashed are better, that's how the system works.
I'm not sure that's empirically true. I know a relatively low-time ag-pilot who hit a wire he knew was there and had been flying around all day. The FAA wanted him to take wire-avoidance training, but he said to them (words to the effect of), "Trust me, there's NOBODY who's more current on wire avoidance than me right now!"
It is easy to say an accident can happen to anyone, this much is true. However accidents only happen to some people not to everyone and there are various reasons for that most which have been documented in your preferred human performance manual.
Those that stick within what is permitted and choose to operate within their abilities tend to avoid accidents.
The trick is realising if you avoided one due to luck or discipline.
But again I fall back on the fact that all the rulebooks and manuals in the world can't cover every situation a pilot can get into. No amount of training (or even first-hand experience) can prepare a pilot for every circumstance he'll encounter "out there." Accident avoidance is sometimes just good dumb luck. Accident occurrence is sometimes just bad dumb luck. If it were solely clinical and scientific we'd never have any accidents because we'd all be well-trained, experienced and we'd all do it "by the book" and make the correct decisions all the time.. Obviously we don't.

One day I was trying to get the boss up to his hunting camp in his 206. The wx was bad enough when we took off, and got progressively worse as we went along. But we knew the weather at the camp was good, so it was just a matter of getting through this "little area of low stuff." Show of hands: How many of us have ever said/done that? Well it got REALLY bad. Slow-down-and-hover-up-the-road bad. Dry-mouth-butt-clenchingly bad. I'm-stupid-and-I-deserve-to-die bad. Holy-cow-I-hope-that-wasn't-an-FAA-guy-in-that-car-down-there bad. You get the idea. It was bad. But sometimes when you're really in the sh*t, you think it's better just to keep going. The boss and I knew the area, knew there weren't any antennas or powerlines along our path...just follow this road and we'll be into the river valley soon and...sure enough we crested a hill and suddenly it got a lot better and I was glad I hadn't turned around. Pressure? Yes, both self-induced and some from the boss. Could it have ended badly? Oh yeah. It is those times when I sit there thinking to myself, "Eleven-thousand hours, huh? Gee, what a super pilot you are...NOT!" I was the happy recipient of some good dumb luck that day.

[SASless]

JimL.... As long as the aircraft is operated within the Legal Limits of "Clear of Cloud" and at a speed that allows avoidance of terrain and obstacles...and is outside controlled airspace in daylight....and maintain a minimum visibility of one half statute mile Vis....is that "Scud Running"?

FAR Part 91 says that is legal......or do I misunderstand the Regulation?

We are flying helicopters are we not?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

SAS, 1/2 Nm is around 800 metres. Clear of cloud with 800 Metres of vis, in sight of the surface at sensible speed with a reasonable driver is not what happens in these events. (almost identical limits in EASA Land).
I don't know what the exact wx was for the Blackhawk, but in the A109 we could all clearly see that it was not 800m and certainly not clear of cloud. He was in it. That's scud-running!
Not wanting to speak for JimL, but the only salient point to these circular arguments is, flying below the limits you state is bloody dangerous and should never happen. Where this always gets emotional is the old "Saving Lives" argument. However the number 1 rule of first aid is don't become a casualty yourself.
Like I have said so many times now, it does not matter whether we are wearing green, blue or pink. The ground is just as hard for everyone.

[SASless]

Our vis minimum is 1/2 Statute Mile..... and of course the problem is defining visibility from the Cockpit.....the weather (which determines visibility) is measured at ground level in a horizontal plane).... which is an altogether different perspective than the slant angle view we get while airborne.

How many of us actually measure by some means the actual distance we can see ahead?

Just how does one do that in a practical manner?

Is it fair to say....what we do is go by our personal comfort level to a great degree as we do not have a handy way of measuring distance using the Mark I Eyeball?

Also....Fog is a surface based weather phenomenon by definition thus is not "Cloud" which is not surface based weather.

When you operate at the very edge of the legal limit....the margin for error is very small.

All I was asking JimL was what his definition of "Scud Running" is.... as compared to flight within the legal limits.

Is there a minimum height we must fly in Uncontrolled Airspace (remembering the FAA does not specify a certain distance from persons and property on the ground as does the CAA)?

Was the Blackhawk Crew flying illegally on this cross country flight if they complied with the FAR's re Vis and Clear of Cloud right up until the final moments of the flight (assuming a deterioration in Vis or "ceiling" occurred that forced them to decide to land)?

[Bell_ringer]

. Big deal, it happens.

It's a bigger deal when there are pax onboard and no one walks away.