What should I buy?

[Vortex Sting]

Hi all,

I have a dream to own a fix wing to fly in my spare time to visit relatives and the likes.

If you guys could shoot me some opinions that would be unreal. At this stage it’s something to work toward savings wise and a bit of a dream but hey why not dream big.

At the present time I have a PPL.

The aircraft would have to be IFR suitable as I may use it to get to places for meetings and would need reliability.

It would also have to travel 400nm easily providing for holding fuel and potentially any alternates say 100nm away. A further consideration would be fuel economy as well as maintenance costs. I am not to fussy on speed.

At this moment I would probably have a max spending budget of $150,000.


Let me know if my expectations are unrealistic and should get my head out of the clouds and keep driving 12 hours trips in the car.

thanks all

[flywatcher]

For that sort of money you should be able to get a nice BMW.

[The Range]

I would say a Piper Archer

[Dexta]

My suggestion would be to avoid certified aircraft (Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft etc.) and look to Sport/Experimental/Recreational aviation. This is because CASA will most likely in the future make more and more regulations which will make owning a certified aircraft insanely expensive, cheap to buy yes but very expensive to keep flying. An RV7 or RV9 can be bought for around the $120,000 mark, fitted with a TSO146 GPS and ADSB and you have an affordable to maintain, economical and fast aircraft. If you need four seats then save up a bit more and buy an RV10.

[Squawk7700]

The number of seats is critical to your choice and changes things dramatically.

You can do way better than an Archer... although they are practically giving them away at the moment with their upcoming woes.

[Okihara]

You didn't mention how many passengers and/or baggage you want your plane to hold. From those numbers and while not IFR approved, I'd suggest you get a Sling 2. You'll get 10 hours endurance, fuel burn rates between 15 and 20 L/h and a really neat aircraft to fly around. If you need IFR and can shell out a few extra dollars, I'd go for a used SR20.

[Squawk7700]

The Sling will be too slow for those sorts of distances. I recall the agent (I think he was) landing at my local field endoute from Gold Coast to Avalon and he said he only burnt 90 litres, then proceeded to tell me that he was only doing 85-90 knots.

[MagnumPI]

Cessna 172SP (maybe out of the price range), Cessna 182, or Piper Arrow.

182 would be my pick - lower mx cost v the Arrow, decent speed, tough, can carry plenty of load, and older ones are already mostly depreciated.

[machtuk]

"IF" 2 seats is all you will need most of the time then a Vans A/C (as has been mentioned), I wouldn't even entertain the idea of a heavy spam can, fuel guzzlers & well behind the times these days. An all metal plane for longevity & ease of repair. The RV 7 or 8 are the best of the type, RV10 would be the best if you need more than 2 seats. Buying any plane is the easy part, that's a one off outlay its the ongoing costs (especially fuel) that will be a headache forever so keep them to a minimum!
Aircraft ownership is great providing you accept the fact that they are ALL a money pit:-)

[Lapon]

At the present time I have a PPL. The aircraft would have to be IFR suitable as I may use it to get to places for meetings and would need reliability.

I don't want to encourage you from using a light aircraft for getting around, infact the experience can be very rewarding.
I would however try and discourage you from going down the IFR route for a couple of reasons however...
There is of course the additional cost of acquisition and maintainance, and the added complexity of something extra to breakdown (admittedly I've never used those new GA glass cockpit setups so cant comment there).
As for reliably getting you from A-B, depending where you are located icing will be an issue which will ramp up the expenses mentioned above, or keep you on the ground anyway.
If the weather is too bad to go VFR, then you will have certainly have your hands full going IFR (assuming single pilot).
The initial IFR training and later 'legal currency' is not too difficult but many others may agree that become 'profocient' IFR is a challenge. It took me quite some time to 'comfortably' plan a flight and blast off into the murk single pilot IFR. Now midway through a career in GA and airlines I would not fancy going back single pilot IFR, especially if it was not my day job that was doing day in day out. Enjoy the VFR and when the weather turns bleak enjoy the simplicity of the road trip :ok:

[machtuk]

I don't want to encourage you from using a light aircraft for getting around, infact the experience can be very rewarding.
I would however try and discourage you from going down the IFR route for a couple of reasons however...
There is of course the additional cost of acquisition and maintainance, and the added complexity of something extra to breakdown (admittedly I've never used those new GA glass cockpit setups so cant comment there).
As for reliably getting you from A-B, depending where you are located icing will be an issue which will ramp up the expenses mentioned above, or keep you on the ground anyway.
If the weather is too bad to go VFR, then you will have certainly have your hands full going IFR (assuming single pilot).
The initial IFR training and later 'legal currency' is not too difficult but many others may agree that become 'profocient' IFR is a challenge. It took me quite some time to 'comfortably' plan a flight and blast off into the murk single pilot IFR. Now midway through a career in GA and airlines I would not fancy going back single pilot IFR, especially if it was not my day job that was doing day in day out. Enjoy the VFR and when the weather turns bleak enjoy the simplicity of the road trip :ok:

That's good advice especially if there is any pressure involved to get there such as a business meetings. SE SP IFR is a high risk adventure especially in winter. Your choice of course but what price do you put on your life?

[Okihara]

The Sling will be too slow for those sorts of distances. I recall the agent (I think he was) landing at my local field endoute from Gold Coast to Avalon and he said he only burnt 90 litres, then proceeded to tell me that he was only doing 85-90 knots.





While not suggesting that the Sling is super fast, 85-90 is a definitely too low a figure. That must have been ground speed at an unfortunate level. I have personally flown some 40 odd hours in two models with different props and consistently reached 105-110 KIAS on the Rotax 912 ULS engine. Disclaimer: I was renting wet, therefore fuel economy wasn't my primary concern.

Another advantage: it'll run on MOGAS too.

[Sunfish]

Stay away from LSA aircraft unless they are proven rough dirt field performers like Jabiru. Be aware that a lot of those sexy looking LSAs are quite fragile and have very low crosswind limits like the Sportstar. Despite only flying “VFR’ there is vfr on beautiful windless sunny days on big sealed runways and then there is vfr before a front arrives with gusty crosswinds on a short, narrow, rough, gravel strip just before last light. That is why there are so many cessnas and pipers around.

If I had the money, a late model C182 would be ideal, fast, tough capable and genuine four seats.

Perhaps you need to think in more detail about the average mission you do. How many people fuel payload? What sort of strips? Overnighting or day return? Speed means more fuel but a shorter weather window, etc., etc. Cessna and Piper are pretty closely optimized for the average pilot/mission.

To put that another way, if your mission calls for an IFR cirrus with de icing or other high end exotica and you are not an ex astronaut, then rethink your mission.

[27/09]

You can do way better than an Archer... although they are practically giving them away at the moment with their upcoming woes.
Please explain!

[poteroo]

Hi all,

I have a dream to own a fix wing to fly in my spare time to visit relatives and the likes.

If you guys could shoot me some opinions that would be unreal. At this stage it’s something to work toward savings wise and a bit of a dream but hey why not dream big.

At the present time I have a PPL.

The aircraft would have to be IFR suitable as I may use it to get to places for meetings and would need reliability.

It would also have to travel 400nm easily providing for holding fuel and potentially any alternates say 100nm away. A further consideration would be fuel economy as well as maintenance costs. I am not to fussy on speed.

At this moment I would probably have a max spending budget of $150,000.


Let me know if my expectations are unrealistic and should get my head out of the clouds and keep driving 12 hours trips in the car.

thanks all



After 40 years of ownership spread over 9 different aircraft, my best advice is to not spend anything on your own aircraft until you have gained several design feature endorsements, followed by lots of flying experience in different makes and models. Get your experience by hiring. This will give you time to look into just what hours you might require per year, and the logistics of using the aircraft. Not much value in needing business clients to drive 50kms to pick you up at a sealed runway airport if you want to fly high performance aircraft with operating limitations placed on them by the owner. Much better to land closer to them, but this then points you towards a more short field capable aircraft - which you will need advanced training to operate safely yet efficiently.

As previously stated, your costs can mount up alarmingly. As owners, we make a large allocation in our budgets for those horrible 'unforeseens'. Hasten slowly!

happy days,

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr VS,
You don't say in which part of Australia you are located.

I'm sort of with Mr Poteroo, but then you may be able to find a 'group ownership / syndicate' in your local area.
The syndicate will have an 'economic' plan, the various maintenance and hangarage / insurance costs will be 'split' amongst the syndicate members, and your aircraft useage will therefore be a whole lot cheaper.

And you will no doubt have access to an instructor who can bring you 'up to speed' on the type - if required.

Then, if you decide that this aircraft type is not for you, you can see the syndicate about withdrawing from same.....and maybe find another, or, now that you are 'familiar' with aircraft operating expenses etc, you may be in a better position to purchase your own....and IF that is different type from the syndicate, you could ask them if they are interested in expanding the 'fleet'...??

Good Luck either way.....
Cheers

[Bend alot]

AN2 was looking good until you mentioned fuel economy!

But it is good to plan on 10 lts per hour of oil.

[mustafagander]

Rule 1: If it flies, floats or f#@*ks rent it , never, ever buy it.
Works for me.

[Squawk7700]

Or... as a wise CFI once told me...

Owning an aircraft is like a bacon and egg sandwich. The chook is involved, but the pig is committed.

[KRviator]

I built an RV-9A within your budget (and need to sell it soon to get a 4 seater:(). For planning I use 145KTAS at 25LPH, and run Mogas in the cruise. With 136L usable, I have a still air range of 700NM with 45m reserve. On a good day, I can easily be airborne, or down and stopped in 300m.

[The sod]

The Piper Archer/Arrow is a good solid and honest aircraft. My favourite Arrow is the Arrow 111
The Cessna 172 is the Commodore of the skies and will do the job. Great paint and modern panel will give it more street appeal.
The Cessna 182 probably my pick if you can afford the fuel. Apparently you can get it down to about 52lph in the cruise. If you can close the doors the C182 will haul it.
The C182P is Mogas approved but the 182Q is not, I believe.
The C177 Cardinal 180HP might be worth a look.
Beech...well some Bonanzas would be in your price range. Fuel guzzler for the poor Private Pilot. The Beech 36 is a great looking aircraft. If its love at first sight then to hell with the fuel.
Mooney M20J M201 The second generation Mooneys should give you 150kts Tas with 200hp engine and 4 seats. These are really travel aircraft as opposed to local flying and would probably give you the best MPG
The RV7/9 great machines. Somebody might ask "who built it ?"
Bit to choose from there. With your budget you should find something. Don't forget the older Cherokee 6 and similar types ....quite cheap these days
But wait !! There's more !!
Checkout PlaneSales on the Net. There is a beautiful old Navion Rangemaster VH-WWE. Big solid rugged machine. Spend dollars on new panel and check hydraulics. Own a classic .Make an offer !!
Don't get hung up on the cost of ownership. Hangarage, Insurance etc is all dead money and should be treated as such. Its all about the JOY and PRIDE of ownership.
Purchase something you would be proud to taxi up to the apron with. No matter what it is, it's yours !

[Bend alot]

Probably more important to work out your annual amount of $'s you wish to depart with, that will then decide on the type of toy you can get.

Things to consider are will you hire it out to help with costs and how many hours do you expect to do each year.

You can pick up something like a C402B ( one with good times went for $70,000) put it out for some training a few hours a year, some private hire and maybe a deal with a businesses owner that has a pilot licence that can use it some week days for his work.

These are a very good private aircraft but suck two litres of Avgas a minute, and you would want to put around $10,000 in the kitty for 100 hly/annual. You can also get some low cost Barons but they do not have the volume.

[kellykelpie]

My wife just heard me read the initial post out and she said “airline tickets”....

[machtuk]

Probably more important to work out your annual amount of $'s you wish to depart with, that will then decide on the type of toy you can get.

Things to consider are will you hire it out to help with costs and how many hours do you expect to do each year.

You can pick up something like a C402B ( one with good times went for $70,000) put it out for some training a few hours a year, some private hire and maybe a deal with a businesses owner that has a pilot licence that can use it some week days for his work.

These are a very good private aircraft but suck two litres of Avgas a minute, and you would want to put around $10,000 in the kitty for 100 hly/annual. You can also get some low cost Barons but they do not have the volume.

christ all mighty a C400 series? Poor bugga will be broke for life!�� There's a reason why no one can give them away!��

[Bend alot]

christ all mighty a C400 series? Poor bugga will be broke for life!�� There's a reason why no one can give them away!��
And that reason is?

[Global Aviator]

Why has no one suggested the C209?

[Bend alot]

Why has no one suggested the C209?
Not many were/are IFR that was a OP requirement - also a touch short on the OP's requirement of range without the cargo pod fuel tank mod.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re the '209'.....

Maybe because he would like it to get airborne within the confines of the curvature of the Earth...….

Cheers

[The Range]

Yeah, renting would be a better option for now.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Is this the upcoming "Problem" (http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180515.aspx) with the PA28s?