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acheo
3rd Mar 2019, 13:44
Hi,

I'm looking at the FMCS manual and can't find anywhere a reference to WAAS/EGNOS/SBAS/LPV so here's a few questions:

1. When selecting an RNAV approach for which there are LPV minima available, is the FMC automatically selecting the highest services available i.e. LPV?
2. On which FMC page can I disable the WAAS/EGNOS?

thanks

Acheo

Smythe
3rd Mar 2019, 13:55
As very few airlines have opted for GBAS, perhaps it is not there because your airline did not?

FlyingStone
3rd Mar 2019, 14:02
LPV is an SBAS thing, unlike GLS which is GBAS.

737 will be LPV capable with FMC U14, which is due sometime this year. And it will probably require SBAS-compatible MMR, for which Boeing will surely charge a hefty fee.

Check Airman
3rd Mar 2019, 16:18
LPV is an SBAS thing, unlike GLS which is GBAS.

737 will be LPV capable with FMC U14, which is due sometime this year. And it will probably require SBAS-compatible MMR, for which Boeing will surely charge a hefty fee.
One would assume it's not that expensive to install. SBAS is becoming as commonplace in GA airplanes as GPS.

acheo
3rd Mar 2019, 16:22
That explains then. Been looking over numerous engineering documents and could not find anything.

Thanks for the info!

Smythe
3rd Mar 2019, 21:29
737 will be LPV capable with FMC U14, which is due sometime this year. And it will probably require SBAS-compatible MMR, for which Boeing will surely charge a hefty fee.


GBAS is a no cost option on most Boeing and Airbus ac. Most airlines are hesitant given the myriad of systems, lack of standards and procedures, and of course, things like the MLS debaucle.

Denti
4th Mar 2019, 06:52
GBAS is a no cost option on most Boeing and Airbus ac. Most airlines are hesitant given the myriad of systems, lack of standards and procedures, and of course, things like the MLS debaucle.
I know it is on boeings, i flew for the first airline that was CAT I GBAS approved in europe on their 737s back then. However, on the airbus fleet they never installed it, as firstly it was only available as an aftermarket mod and secondly the cost associated was 250k $ per aircraft. Now, airbus might have changed their pricing policy in the meantime, but that was still true up to the CEO sharklet models. On newer airbus types like the A380, A350 and the A330NEO GBAs was indeed a no cost option. The same might be true with the A320NEO, i have no idea about that.

However, GBAS is not LPV, and at least in europe LPV does not seem to be play a major role yet, it might at some point, but currently it does not seem to be make a good business case to invest in that. And even GBAS, although it is now available at some major airports like FRA and ZRH, is not really something airlines like to invest in apparently. It lacks the clear cut business case.

aterpster
4th Mar 2019, 14:30
However, GBAS is not LPV, and at least in europe LPV does not seem to be play a major role yet, it might at some point, but currently it does not seem to be make a good business case to invest in that. And even GBAS, although it is now available at some major airports like FRA and ZRH, is not really something airlines like to invest in apparently. It lacks the clear cut business case.
This indicates otherwise:

https://egnos-user-support.essp-sas.eu/new_egnos_ops/resources-tools/lpv-procedures-map

Denti
4th Mar 2019, 16:02
That paints a somewhat more rosy picture than is reality. Many of those approaches are APV Baro approaches, the number of airlines using them is extremely small. Quite often it is Swiss and/or Air Baltic with their A220, but not with any other type. Apparently the A220 is equipped for that, the rest of airline usable aircraft is not (yet). And then there is small airports without any airline service at all. Therefore it might have some use, but mainly non-commercial ops and the approaches were introduced in a desperate attempt to lure in some more traffic which hasn't really worked.

Does LPV have any commercial viability? Sure, it could have. But the reality is, the infrastructure in many parts of europe, especially middle and western europe, is simply way too good with widespread ILS installations There are quite a few more ILS approaches available than LPV approaches. Pretty much the same thing that hampers GBAS introduction as well. The airline drop down box is quite telling by the way, there is nearly no major european airline listed using any of the approaches. The biggest is probably EasyJet, and if you check them out it is only a planned operation that is not in any way current operation. In fact, easyJet is not approved for any LPV approach or any approach with a more restrictive RNP than 0,3. Not even RNP AR in cases where it would really make sense, like for example Innsbruck where special training is required anyway. Heck, they cannot even use the low vis ILS in salzburg due to lack of training capacity but that is another issue entirely.

Ilyushin76
4th Mar 2019, 16:05
Not to sound out of context, but what is a LPV approach?

aterpster
4th Mar 2019, 17:03
Not to sound out of context, but what is a LPV approach?
SBAS approach that is virtually identical to ILS Category 1. The U.S. now has more LPV approaches than ILS approaches. General aviation is the primary user.

voerot
4th Mar 2019, 17:19
That paints a somewhat more rosy picture than is reality. Many of those approaches are APV Baro approaches, the number of airlines using them is extremely small. Quite often it is Swiss and/or Air Baltic with their A220, but not with any other type. Apparently the A220 is equipped for that, the rest of airline usable aircraft is not (yet). And then there is small airports without any airline service at all. Therefore it might have some use, but mainly non-commercial ops and the approaches were introduced in a desperate attempt to lure in some more traffic which hasn't really worked.

It's not only the A220 that is able to fly LPV. In AirBaltic the whole fleet of Q400's is also equipped (and a few of them have been equipped for a few years) and a lot of the pilots are trying to fly LPV approaches as often as possible.

Smythe
4th Mar 2019, 17:26
what is a LPV approach?

LPV uses the SBAS, where the signal correction generated by the satellite, The GPS is hyper accurate and includes vertical. So you can fly the procedure to lower minima.

GBAS provides the vertical guidance as well, but the signal correction is ground based. The AC follows the broadcast flightpath (horizontal and vertical)

WAAS was really developed for General Aviation, not commercial.


TOTAL Estimated WAAS LPV Equipped Aircraft – 79,105

Garmin – 73,184 aircraft − GA Aircraft (See FAA Garmin Approved Model List (AML)). Most GA Part 23 aircraft. − GTN series – Lear 35/35A, 36/36A,24 – Phenom300 with G-3000

Universal Avionics – 2,380 aircraft − 122 fixed wing and 12 helicopter types and models RockwellCollins – 1,930 aircraft − 39 Types and models − Latest Aircraft – Embraer Legacy 500

Honeywell /CMC Electronics) – 921 aircraft − 22 types and models

Avidyne – 238 aircraft − 6 types and models (Cirrus SR 20 & 22, Piper Matrix & Mirage, Piper Saratoga NX, and EA-500) − IFD 540 WAAS LPV - (STC complete July 2014 – AML STC approved for over 1,000 aircraft makes and models) Genesys Aerosystems (Chelton) – 247 aircraft − Bell-407 & 412, Cessna 501, 550, Piper PA-42, Beechcraft C-90&A, EurocopterAS-350, AgustaAW109SP, Beechcraft T-34B, Kawsaka

Innovative Solutions & Support (IS&S) – 200 aircraft − Eclipse 550/500 −

Boeing 737-200, 737-400 (pending)

Thales – 5 aircraft − Airbus A300-600ST (Beluga) − Airbus A400M (Military) − Airbus A350XWB - pending

Denti
4th Mar 2019, 18:58
It's not only the A220 that is able to fly LPV. In AirBaltic the whole fleet of Q400's is also equipped (and a few of them have been equipped for a few years) and a lot of the pilots are trying to fly LPV approaches as often as possible.
Thanks for that information, so it looks like the Bombardier or ex-Bombardier products with their GA derived avionics might have it. The Dash seems to die out in Europe, but the A220 might have quite a future ahead of it.

The 737 and A320s i know are not LPV capable, the 737s can do GLS at no extra cost which my former employer tested to CAT IIIb operation buthasn't been certified for that yet. But it seems Boeing will provide an update soon for its FMC, no idea about Airbus, from Smythe's list it seems that at least Thales does only provide it for the new types (and the very old Beluga). That said, i slowly see some LPV minima cropping up on our charts, but that is on approaches that allow for VNAV/LNAV (baro) minima which we can use. I can see the appeal for smaller airports to allow easy "installation" of an IFR procedure for occasional use, but for airports with lots of movement as primary approach? Not so much. Especially since we usually need low vis capability in this climate anyway.

FE Hoppy
5th Mar 2019, 10:51
Standard arrival in ZRH is LPV for the BombBus fleet.