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pineteam
3rd Mar 2019, 06:49
Dear all,

We just have new SOP and we are now supposed to follow strictly the Airbus Standard call out.
Before in our sop it was mandatory to transfer the communication by calling: ''I have communication/ you have communication.''
There was no such things as assuming PM duty when you transfer control.
I understand according to Airbus SOP, there is absolutely no need to call: " I have communication'' '' You have communication''. In fact, the terminology '' I have/You have communication does not exist in Airbus manuals. Even during an Ecam, when the PF calls ''Ecam actions'' he assumes the communication and when '' Ecam actions completed'' is announced the PM assumes the communication again.
But what about if the PM needs to get the ATIS? Or need to go to the toilet? Or you need to contact another controller before entering his airspace on VHF 3? Don't you mention " You have communication'' in that case? I know it's common sense; You obviously won't go in the bathroom with communication but I'm just curious to see how other airlines comply with this procedure.

Thank you.

SW1
3rd Mar 2019, 07:49
In my outfit (HK based) its just "you have ATC1" for physiological breaks,talking with the cabin etc. He/she replies "I have ATC 1" for proper handover. If I have to contact the next FIR before a certain point as PM i will just say " Monitor ATC1" after telling the PF i am going off air. The when resuming primary comms again I say "I have ATC1" they say "You have ATC 1" and updates me on any changes.

For abnormals its the same as you quoted above.

iceman50
3rd Mar 2019, 08:34
A severe grasp of the non essential there.:ugh:

SW1
3rd Mar 2019, 08:41
True. Although 1 lost comms incident gives rise to the above being made into SOP. Headsets on all the time in Chinese airspace etc:rolleyes:

FlightDetent
3rd Mar 2019, 08:41
I have communication / You have communication or any other understandable wording My radio / Your radio. What SW1 says is nice for being punctual and short.

You are correct about the FCOM content. I do not really see how a 360° SOP and go without COMMS handover routine. With the exemption of abnormals (RTO..) where it is implied and clear.

Additionally, when transferring PF to PM, on most occasions it is undesirable to swap the communication in the opposite direction at the same time.

FlightDetent
3rd Mar 2019, 08:47
A severe grasp of the non essential there.:ugh: Pardon me for asking, do you have any formal radio transfer call at CX?

pineteam
3rd Mar 2019, 12:03
A severe grasp of the non essential there.:ugh:

I asked a question as many folks are confused and actually don’t undestand clearly how the transfer of communication works according to Airbus. To prove a point to a friend of mine, I had to post this. Anyway I don’t undestand why you will even comment. If my post is useless just move along bro. No need to waste time commenting. XD

To the others, thank you very much for your inputs.


True. Although 1 lost comms incident gives rise to the above being made into SOP. Headsets on all the time in Chinese airspace etc:rolleyes:

We had indeed in the past a serious loss of communication. The use of headset in chinese airspace is recommended not mandatory tho. I always take them off during cruise; much more confortable without it.

Check Airman
3rd Mar 2019, 16:10
At my outfit, we just say "I'm off 1" or "I've got the radio". Something along those lines. But many here would consider us cowboys anyway. More interesting, is what exactly caused this change?

FlightDetent
3rd Mar 2019, 20:28
There's no change in the FCOM. My oldest is 2008 and while it has the controls transfer covered with words identical to 2018 editions, there's nothing on the Comms. Zip.

I do not really buy the view it's their idea NOT to say anything; pinteams' reservations and your view in alignment with mine.

meleagertoo
3rd Mar 2019, 23:59
There's no change in the FCOM. My oldest is 2008 and while it has the controls transfer covered with words identical to 2018 editions, there's nothing on the Comms. Zip.


I surely can't be the only one who's read this thread with utter bemusement and incredulity.

Has the Magenta Line really become so overwhelming that we must look to Airbus for a 'correct' way to transfer comms to the other pilot?

I know A!rm@ns*** us a swearword these days but surely, somewhere amongst all those purple ink-filled brains there must be a crumb of practicality and common sense left...Are some of you not actually pilots?

Surely....?
How do you tie your shoelaces in the morning?
A section on correct use of the coathangers perhaps?
Or how to wear your headset? (No!!! Please! Don't tell me...)

Utterly pigging unbelieveable. :| The world's gone bonkers.

pineteam
4th Mar 2019, 02:46
Meleagertoo, I hear you, it seems ridiculous but we have close to 40 different nationalities and to avoid incidents due to missundestandings they have to be a little bit picky on standard call out. I also wish it would be more relax like the american style but I’m just a normal line captain. I don’t make the rules.
I did a raw data departure yesterday on A319. My company allows this so don’t think we can be called children of the magenta; Well at least not me. :p

The Bartender
4th Mar 2019, 13:50
....somewhere amongst all those purple ink-filled brains there must be a crumb of practicality and common sense left....

Have you not heard?
Many moons ago, it was discovered that "common sense" was not common at all. In fact, it never was!
Not only in aviation, but everywhere!
That is why everything today has manuals and written procedures that are to be followed.
It is also referred to as CYA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_your_ass).

Friendly Pelican
4th Mar 2019, 14:34
Ahhh okay,

Is it just me, or are there two competing priorities here?

I recognise the need for clear communication in situations in extremis. I can certainly relate to being in the depths of an EGPWS pullup (training), wondering 'What the hell are the correct words I'm I supposed to say now?' But 'Pull Up' I had, and it only took me a second or so to announce it to my oppo.

At the other end of the spectrum, the need for clear communication means that one should not strive for the 'words', but the meaning - that is, to look into someone's eyes. 'Bloggs: I need to go for a walk. Don't crash until I get back...' conveys exactly the same meaning as 'You have control and communication.' Hopefully, at the same time, I've also conveyed a message of trust and respect.

Looking for standard phraseology while one departs the cockpit for a walk, a wee or a wonder cheapens the currency of a standard phraseology in necessarium.

And if we're going to test people for English Language Proficiency, should we not insist that this proficiency is demanded outside the testing booth?

FlightDetent
4th Mar 2019, 19:51
Utterly pigging unbelieveable. :| The world's gone bonkers. Pointless for you to get upset before putting the effort in to understand, save your breath next time or just ask.

The fact that the AB FCOM (a fine airmanship cookbook BTW) does not have a single letter on comms transfer at all (kind of surprising given what other details they had been forced to put in) is being interpreted by some of pinteam's colleagues to mean: there should be no call done at all. That is upside down, innit?

Now in Asia a manufacturer's book carries a LOT of weight. Going through the older editions to find a written piece he could use to beat some sense to them, since written is the only thing which might work, gets me a CoM badge? You are funny beyond your own perceived wit, apparently not a task too complicated.

Happy to be of assistance.





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slate100
5th Mar 2019, 01:39
There should be standard phraseology for almost everything.

If you're dealing with ICAO English 5 or 6 level pilots sure it's not such a big deal.

But what if the guy beside you is only an ICAO 4 because he bribed the test taker or cheated somehow on his English test, and in reality he's more like an ICAO 1 or 2?

And the only English he knows are the stock callouts he memorized from the aircraft/company manuals...

Check Airman
5th Mar 2019, 03:31
There should be standard phraseology for almost everything.

If you're dealing with ICAO English 5 or 6 level pilots sure it's not such a big deal.

But what if the guy beside you is only an ICAO 4 because he bribed the test taker or cheated somehow on his English test, and in reality he's more like an ICAO 1 or 2?

And the only English he knows are the stock callouts he memorized from the aircraft/company manuals...
You're arguing that we should, as professionals, cater to the lowest common denominator. Even the cheaters. If you can't figure out who's on the radio, perhaps you shouldn't be flying.

Pineteam raises a valid point about the 40 countries at his company, but it really is a sad state of affairs when it's necessary to turn to SOP for something as basic as that. Sit at whatever height suits you. Grasp the sidestick in whatever manner suits you. Put your feet where you like. PM does the radio. Figure out the rest. Do you need SOP to tell you which shoe goes on which foot as well?

Sorry for the rant, but the last post suggesting that we should openly cater to people who have not met the minimum standards struck a nerve.

Denti
5th Mar 2019, 06:21
You're arguing that we should, as professionals, cater to the lowest common denominator. Even the cheaters. If you can't figure out who's on the radio, perhaps you shouldn't be flying.

Sorry for the rant, but the last post suggesting that we should openly cater to people who have not met the minimum standards struck a nerve.

Well, it is easy enough to miss that the other one switched off the radio for whatever reason and that can of course lead to a missed call and even lost communication. It shouldn’t happen but it does. Do we need a standard call? Not necessarily, but it is always good zo advise the other one what is going on. And yes, different native languages, accents and of course backgrounds do happen, especially in europe where you are in a different country with a different language and a quite different history every few miles. I grew up close to a border myself, and although we did speak the same language on both sides and eventually ended up in one country there is still a distinct difference there. Standardization sometimes seems superfluous, but in the end it makes life easier, especially in a company with a very diverse set of employees.

To be honest, the airbus OEM SOPs actually cater for the lowest common denominator, and that one would be probably below standard in big parts of the world. Therefore it is somewhat surprising that there is no standard callout for the transfer of communication.

Check Airman
5th Mar 2019, 06:55
I find the differences in opinion on either side of the pond quite interesting. For example, we've recently changed our departure and arrival briefing to a more succinct format, with the expectation that the other pilot has a firm grasp of the SOP. Thus, we really don't go over any of the stuff that's already in the SOP. For example, my arrival brief typically takes 20-30 seconds, and that's going at an unhurried pace. From what I've heard from friends in other parts of the world, that's criminally short, but yet we manage. Not saying that our way's the best way, but it does seem more efficient.

Escape Path
5th Mar 2019, 16:28
I find the differences in opinion on either side of the pond quite interesting. For example, we've recently changed our departure and arrival briefing to a more succinct format, with the expectation that the other pilot has a firm grasp of the SOP. Thus, we really don't go over any of the stuff that's already in the SOP. For example, my arrival brief typically takes 20-30 seconds, and that's going at an unhurried pace. From what I've heard from friends in other parts of the world, that's criminally short, but yet we manage. Not saying that our way's the best way, but it does seem more efficient.

We have changed our briefing for a more “simplified” (for lack of a better word) one yet some insist on doing it the older (unnecessarily longer) one. It’s more focused this new format, yet it gives you room to include whatever you need. In fact, it’s YOUR briefing, you say what you think it’s relevant whether it is on the format or not!

My point is: Don’t have a call for transferring comms but need to transfer them? Well say something, anything, that is clear enough to the other person that they have comms. Our most common one is “you have comms”. However, there’s this and that occasion when I’ll need to pick up the atis or talk to the company; for this case I use “you have ATC” as I’m still on comms (with the company, for instance). This is a bit nit picky, but then again, we’ll say it in English or Spanish (local language), or say something as simple as “I’ll get the atis” and the other one implicitly knows they’re on comms, sometimes even getting a “my comms” as an instinctive reply.

Bottom line? In the absence of something standard, use any words you need for both of you to understand what you want/need. Don’t just think about what does the manual says about x or y, think about what YOU need to keep YOUR flight safe. Books don’t crash airplanes, people do.