Upgrade out of seniority [Archive]

Jackschitt

2nd Mar 2019, 19:12

DropKnee

2nd Mar 2019, 20:05

Seems like a clear violation on your contract. I suggest you grieve it. Take it to litigation if required. I am confident the UK courts would frown on such things.

GMEDX

2nd Mar 2019, 22:53

Not a problem. The common seniority list will be announced shortly. He and others will then be plenty senior enough.

reazasassain

2nd Mar 2019, 22:54

You are better off litigating it yourself and not relying on the AOA. They can't seem to get anything right.

At least some base slots are being opened up.

The FUB

3rd Mar 2019, 22:03

Same pilot who was about to be demoted for incompetence ?

unitedabx

4th Mar 2019, 03:03

Apparently an ex Manchester based ex-dragon air captain who downgraded to f/o voluntarily and took a base in London is being offered an unadvertised captain slot in London.

It’s bad enough he stole a Cathay Pilots’ captains slot out of seniority once via the back door called dragon air. Now he’s about to do it again.

If the GMA goes through with this, there will be more than just 777 FOs being sick to worry about!

This sounds very dubious to me. Manchester based initially, so a freighter jockey, now based in London ( LHR ) as an FO ( which fleet ? ) and no slots are at the moment available on either the jumbo or 777. I think this is a wind-up. If NOT, then a total breach of the basings agreement all based pilots currently operate to.

Shag Nasty

4th Mar 2019, 06:27

Same pilot who was about to be demoted for incompetence ?

Completely untrue 'The FUB'. I know this is a rumour network, but what you are saying is not correct. Please do not start spreading BS just to inflame the Pilots in CX. Everyone is looking for excuses to point fingers at each other at the moment, so what you are doing is very unhelpful......

Table For 1

4th Mar 2019, 18:38

In the content of this thread any sane person should see why joining CX should be a truly last resort. If it wasn’t bad enough dealing with the amoral chimps that Swire promote to f##% up a potential gold mine, then you can rely on the little green eyed monsters from Aus/Can/France/anywhere else....(delete as appropriate) that have had their own moral compasses totally distorted by greed to screw you over as well. (Your fellow pilots by the way).

Stay away, this place is more toxic than Chernobyl.

main_dog

5th Mar 2019, 00:31

For whatever it’s worth, the guy in question is a stand-up chap and in no way one of the people who make this place toxic.

Brokeidiot

5th Mar 2019, 10:45

For whatever it’s worth, the guy in question is a stand-up chap and in no way one of the people who make this place toxic.

How many times can one person act completely against the seniority list and still remain a “stand-up chap”?

BalloonBuster

6th Mar 2019, 13:25

So are you saying that the OP is correct in their story ? But it's ok because the guy is a "stand up chap"?

It's getting a little too cryptic here..

Yes the story is correct. AoA Europe is involved as well, conveniently hiding the whole operation from the rest of the seniority list until the damage is done and a precedent has been set.
What’s next ? All based FO’s to get commands on the base out of seniority ?

Farman Biplane

6th Mar 2019, 14:24

The AOA EUROPE president is pretty vocal on the HKAOA forums, so I am sure he will come clean about the issue and explain it all on the HKAOA forums soon....

Oasis

6th Mar 2019, 21:34

So what is the explanation for him taking a base out of seniority? Mitigating circumstances?

The FUB

7th Mar 2019, 01:36

I'm sure there are ex Paris CNs who would just at the chance to take a LHR 747 slot.

So why would this ex KA pilot be allowed to jump the queue?

And an upgrade would need to be completed with limited training resources

corrigin

7th Mar 2019, 16:30

This is a false rumour. It has been confirmed by the AOAOE Chairman.

I echo Shag Nasty's quote, "Please do not start spreading BS just to inflame the Pilots in CX. Everyone is looking for excuses to point fingers at each other at the moment, so what you are doing is very unhelpful."

turnandburn

9th Mar 2019, 08:08

unitedabx

9th Mar 2019, 08:19

You might find with more specific questioning that the AOAE interpret there date of joining as there dragon start date not cx start date hence there belief not out of seniority, and seniority in UK is not part of seniority in hkg
His answers would probably be misleading and would need more detailed questioning, I would be very dubious about his answers and intentions.

There is seniority on a base BUT for any vacancy it must be advertised for all pilots in HKG and elsewhere and awarded on DOJ. So in theory an NZ based pilot could apply for a UK slot using his DOJ seniority into CX ( not his NZ base seniority ). The question is which DOJ counts ? DOJ joining CX / DOJ joining KA or DOJ transferring to CX from KA ? Whatever DOJ the vacancy MUST be advertised. Also, there are no mitigating or compassionate circumstances allowed.

turnandburn

9th Mar 2019, 09:54

There is seniority on a base BUT for any vacancy it must be advertised for all pilots in HKG and elsewhere and awarded on DOJ. So in theory an NZ based pilot could apply for a UK slot using his DOJ seniority into CX ( not his NZ base seniority ). The question is which DOJ counts ? DOJ joining CX / DOJ joining KA or DOJ transferring to CX from KA ? Whatever DOJ the vacancy MUST be advertised. Also, there are no mitigating or compassionate circumstances allowed.

Then care to explain how they are london based now? Those slots weren't advertised. The Assc has turned a bind eye to it, there behaviour over recent years is appalling and getting worse.

unitedabx

9th Mar 2019, 15:38

Then care to explain how they are london based now? Those slots weren't advertised. The Assc has turned a bind eye to it, there behaviour over recent years is appalling and getting worse.

Defaulted to LHR from MAN with AOA agreement.

Flying Clog

9th Mar 2019, 23:06

Right seat to right seat MAN to LHR furry muff. But an UPGRADE! No sir, that's not cricket.

Fly747

9th Mar 2019, 23:25

The FOs were London based when they bid for LHR years and years ago shortly after they moved from KA to CX, that bid was open to all so was completely fair.A bit of history here, bidding down to FO from CN was not allowed at the time anymore than it is now. In fact all KA CNs were transferred on a "first officer (rapid command)" deal, they had to wear FO stripes and do a shortened command course as there was no such thing as a DEC. Two guys failed and thus became FOs. One of those two left a few years ago. I don't know if the other one is the one that the OP refers to but would guess that this thread was started as fake news.

Pickuptruck

6th Apr 2019, 00:16

I looked at this with the AOA a while ago. When you start including CX pilots who have been pushed or forced off their base it gets very murky. In comparison to the opening of slots on certain bases going on right now.
Should a person who joined on (for instance) a Sydney base (say 3 years ago) get dragged to Hong Kong because base requirements change and there is no longer a slot for them?
Conversely, if the only slot available is a command slot in Brisbane but that would keep him in Australia should he get the CN slot in Brisbane because it’s only open to him?
What about when the company finds slots that weren’t previously advertised?
It opened up a hornets nest regarding how much control bases have over what they see as their base slots. And this idea of base seniority.

Much of which Hong Kong based crew had no realisation of.

unitedabx

7th Apr 2019, 06:05

And in case anyone thinks this is just a rumour, it isn't. The February 1 2019 Letter from Chairman AOAE to DFO is on the AOA website .

The letter states that it was a voluntary down grade to FO because said Captain couldn't take being apart from the family. This is certainly something we can all empathise with however how many other families are there who are suffering the same predicament?

I thought this is completely against the Basings Agreement . And now with Basings being opened up, and Trainers being accepted onto ANY base as per a recent FON, it seems the seniority system will be abused more now than ever . Has a precedent been set? Are Captains now allowed to take voluntary demotions in order to get a base?

Not only that but permanent basings for compassionate reasons were abandoned many years ago and many pilots have left the company to secure emplyment closer to their families because that option was removed. Could the fact that this particular pilot was ex KA management have any bearing on matters ?

sjimmy

7th Apr 2019, 17:09

Hi,

Direct your arrows at the company.
Not 100% in the know, but remember talking to an ex MAN captain
multiple options where available.
One of those options,
Downgrade to FO on LON base. Said Capt tried HKG for a month and didn’t like it and requested a downgrade according the base closure options.

Dont shoot the messenger

Shag Nasty

7th Apr 2019, 18:50

Said Capt did not try it for a month. took the option of going straight to the RHS, LHR base.

mngmt mole

7th Apr 2019, 21:41

Don't blame the individual or the AOA. This is what you get when you have a company management that willfully flouts all norms of decent personnel management expectations, violates all norms of contract law, lies, deceives, threatens and coerces. You end up with an airline with over 25 different pilot contracts, misery in nearly all groups, and nothing more to look forward to than disappointment and frustration. That is all CX now has to offer.

turnandburn

8th Apr 2019, 00:28

I love the way they bull**** their seniority, they joined in 2008. They keep including their Dragon air seniority, what a fracking joke this has become. Will laugh my farcking arse off if they get pax base ahead of hk AOA members. If you don't stop this **** don't complain about it. The little euro whine taster leader reminds of a little barstard from 1939.

BlunderBus

8th Apr 2019, 02:24

Well the senior f/o’s Promised a London base in May which are now ‘deferred’ until December due to ‘brexit’ which has been a factor for 3 years... are now all happily scooting into virgin Atlantic ... we’ll played guys... well played.
Yet another own goal and who is this ‘stand up chap’ and who is he connected with?!!! Secret handshake?

The FUB

8th Apr 2019, 02:57

He's from,

EX KA from the "Troubles" province

Best buddies with baby Adolf

unitedabx

8th Apr 2019, 08:23

In the Cathay Airline Group we now have

Date of hire
Date of joining
DOJ KA
DOJ CX
Date of transfer to CX
Seniority on a base

Will be very interesting to see which of these is used when the merger of the two seniority lists is proposed this July ? I have it on good authority that the cabin staff unions have agreed to DOJ for their merger due in Jan 2020.