Job Security Thoughts?

[geardown1]

With Thomas Cook up for sale and the holiday side not doing so well, are TC pilots at all worried or trying to leave? I’m not asking to scaremonger - I recently seen a job advert for pilots via their own Facebook page and wondering if it’s worth looking at.

A friend of mine had a start date to work in one of their retail shops but he got told it wasn’t going to happen anymore as there’s now a ban on recruiting new staff for all retail shops!

[763 jock]

Dozens resigning every day. Most jointing Avion Express and SmartLynx. All pilots in melt down.

Time to LHS will be less than 12 months at this rate.....

[macdo]

Frying pan to fire, that's aviation for you!

[Marcus Absent]

Friendly low fares, you know it makes sense😁😁😁😁

[macdo]

Friendly low fares, you know it makes sense😁😁😁😁

Not sure that it does, Marcus. I hope that Dart are not doing a Purple Bricks.

[Antonio Montana]

If you're rated in the 737, there really is only one place to go, 400+ aircraft, launch customer for the Max 200.
If I was looking I would be off like a shot,.

I don't think the Silver/Red will do a purple bricks though, but they seem to be poking the wasps nest by moving into STN

[USERNAME_]

With Thomas Cook up for sale and the holiday side not doing so well, are TC pilots at all worried or trying to leave?

The airline is profitable though, pardon my ignorance when it comes to this stuff, but what is the actual threat to TCX apart from the parent company stripping them for parts.
Having been made redundant in October '17, and then again October '18, I don't plan to hit a home run and have it in October '19 too.

[BoeingLudo737]

It pains me to say but I agree. If you can get a base at home it might be one of the best options to ride out the next big down turn...

I've got offers from both except the harp brigade are putting me in base straight away vs 'hopefully soon' in the silver lot. I'd really rather have avoided it but my own carrier (rudolph lot) aren't exactly on calm seas and my gut is telling me we aren't that far from a big shake up in Euro Aviation.. 18 months max I think!

What base is Jet2 offering at the moment? I am flying for Bluepanorama, a bit sick of it so I am looking at the UK. Thanks

[PA28161]

TCG without TCX becomes just another holiday package jockey in a very highly competitive bucket shop market. By selling TCX to generate funding to reduce their huge debt pile they're as good as "wallpapering the living room while the kitchen's burning down"

[macdo]

Fly4more is spot on. If you are not near the top of a seniority list, the safest place has got to be Orange,Harp or Big. Personally, I'd go for Big to weather the storm. Sound financials and well diversified.

[BoeingLudo737]

Central England is what's on offer as far as I know but it changes fairly frequently I'm led to believe.

Thanks, so will you be going with the harp brigade or the silver-red?

[dirk85]

TCG without TCX becomes just another holiday package jockey in a very highly competitive bucket shop market. By selling TCX to generate funding to reduce their huge debt pile they're as good as "wallpapering the living room while the kitchen's burning down"

On the other end TCX without TCG becomes an airline like many, now without their main source of passengers, with an old and aging fleet, and far stronger and more aggressive competitors to fight with.

[PA28161]

Very true, but I think TCG/TCX is a good synergy and a great shame to split it up.

[deltahotel]

Freight is a secure place - profitable and growing. DHK has been a haven for many years. A bunch of us joined in 2000-2002 from charters under threat of redundancy - i’m Ex TC in the guise of JMC. Since then we’ve picked up from all sorts of European airlines that have gone under, most recently a small crop from Monarch. Ironically, a number of pilots who left us in the past have suffered multiple redundancies some having had the horrible chain of silver jet, excel, Globespan.

Hope this helps

[macdo]

On the other end TCX without TCG becomes an airline like many, now without their main source of passengers, with an old and aging fleet, and far stronger and more aggressive competitors to fight with.
Only half correct.
The deal TCG are aiming to do would include an agreement for supplying seats to the tour operator. Would give a potential owner around 40%-60% filled capacity guaranteed. Likewise TCG can't sell the airline without securing a seat supply, would be suicidal.

[cx1990]

But with the massive debt, is there a chance the whole TCG biting the dust?

[nowhereasfiled]

But with the massive debt, is there a chance the whole TCG biting the dust?

Would say it’s highly unlikely.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Dozens resigning every day. Most jointing Avion Express and SmartLynx. All pilots in melt down.

Time to LHS will be less than 12 months at this rate.....

Is this a wind up 763 Jock?

[cx1990]

Would say it’s highly unlikely.
Is it safe to say then if TCG do sale their airline section it would be with an some sort of agreement with the airline (buyer) to fill up the seats with their customers meaning the TCX crews will still be flying TCG customers just under different banner on the tail.

[nowhereasfiled]

Is it safe to say then if TCG do sale their airline section it would be with an some sort of agreement with the airline (buyer) to fill up the seats with their customers meaning the TCX crews will still be flying TCG customers just under different banner on the tail.

TCG specifically stated that that is one main thing they want if they sell the airline, that the buyer will block a % of seats for TCG holiday customers, and how can they do that without keeping the current crews.

However, personally, I don think the airline will be sold. Don’t think any airline will take it on, nor any ballsy investment groups, and TCG will definitely not “strip it for parts” as like someone said earlier that will be like Wallpapering the living room while the kitchen is burning down. I think TCX will live on for a while, unless there’s some shock Virgin or JetBlue or IAG takeover which would likely only happen when pigs start flying south for the winter.

[BluSdUp]

763 jock
Sooooo, 12 resigning every day, You say.
28 aircraft ,lets say 300+ pilots
10 days 120 leave
20 days 240 leave
30 days 360 gone
Lets say 3 months notice. So, that is end June!
I tell You what : BS!
Cpt B

PS
Dozens as in plural, so potentially 24 or 36 every day, wow!
DS

[SFCC]

BSU

I think 763Jock (not that he is anymore!) was being facetious!

Chill out!

[richardthethird]

So who is more likely to last, then?? TCX or Jet2?! Let the games begin...

[USERNAME_]

So who is more likely to last, then?? TCX or Jet2?! Let the games begin...

Not a game I think anybody wants to really take part in, and certainly not one people should be excited about......

[birdstrike]

People's livelihoods are not a game....

[richardthethird]

Don’t I know it... Just trying to make light of a pretty horrible situation. It was actually a genuine question. Aside from the obvious TCX worries re: sale, which one do we think is likely to last longest?

TCX have a lot of debt, Jet2 have had a rapid expansion. Are either sustainable?

[GA F15]

What are people’s thoughts on Virgin Atlantic, and their ability to ride out any possible upcoming economic issues?
Are they now more financially secure and stable with Delta owning 49%?

[A and C]

I don’t know why people think Jet 2 are poking a hornets nest at STN, There is little business conflict Ryanair are a Loco and Jet 2 a package tour company.

I would also not bet money aganst the Jet 2 boss Philip Meason, he was doing deals long before MoL left school and has built the very substantial Dart Group that has a wide range of interests .

[Down Three Greens]

Dozens resigning every day. Most jointing Avion Express and SmartLynx. All pilots in melt down.

Time to LHS will be less than 12 months at this rate.....


...I detect a wind up.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Not sure that it does, Marcus. I hope are not doing a Purple Bricks.

Who or what is Purple Bricks?

[Riskybis]

What are people’s thoughts on Virgin Atlantic, and their ability to ride out any possible upcoming economic issues?
Are they now more financially secure and stable with Delta owning 49%?

Delta (Biggest and most profitable airline in the world ) is the biggest shareholder of Virgin . Also KLM/Airfrance are also in the mix . So Virgin is in a very stable position . Haters will hate but Virgin is a fantastic place to work , makes BA look like an absolute shambles ! (Which is sad as I have had many fond memories at BA )

[frozenpilot]

More interestingly, we seem to have a number of economic genius posting on this thread... What is this huge contraction in the industry we will see in the next 18 months? Or this nailed on recession?? Apart from the fall out of Brexit? Which, if doesn’t end with a cliff edge Brexit, where will it leave our UK industry?? Contraction, or major exapnasion plans? Truth is none of us know! Pundits have been predicting the next credit crisis for over four years now, I’m not criticising as I am genuinely interested how we know this ticking time bomb is about to explode ( excluding Brexit).

Could it not be the industry is already going through a natural correction? Monarch, Norwegian, Primera, Wow, Air Berlin & Flybmi.. question is, I guess, will other Airlines expand rapidly to fill perceived voids???

At BA the head honcho’s are curbing expansion thoughts until a big event on March the 29th. With that said they are projecting increasing profits over the next two years, circa €2.1 billion..... Maybe their analysts need to look at this thread!

[NoelEvans]

deltahotel‘s Post is the most valid one on this Thread, yet everyone seems to be ignoring it.

Often called “the industry’s best kept secret”, it seems to be easy to see why it remains a ‘secret’ when people like deltahotel state it so clearly and yet everyone ignores it. Freight is growing well (airfreight services contribute £7.2 billion to the UK economy and support 151,000 jobs) and that has to be the answer to thoughts on Job Security.

[richardthethird]

Yeah. If you like perpetual nights.

[Riskybis]

Yeah. If you like perpetual nights.

exactly , also
when the job gets taken over by computers completely it will be freight first

[FlyingStone]

Often called “the industry’s best kept secret”, it seems to be easy to see why it remains a ‘secret’ when people like deltahotel state it so clearly and yet everyone ignores it. Freight is growing well (airfreight services contribute £7.2 billion to the UK economy and support 151,000 jobs) and that has to be the answer to thoughts on Job Security.

Yep, nothing like flying 30-year old frames exclusively at night for less money than pax airlines. You do fly less hours, but every hour of flying at 2-6 am is killing you much faster than the ones flown during daylight.

[deltahotel]

Well, it’s a thread about security rather than ts cs and lifestyle and when you’ve just been made redundant maybe that’s important. Just trying to add to the sum of knowledge to aid those recently cast adrift ( or anyone else who may fancy a change).

Other stuff is (partially) correct and I appreciate it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. After 16 years of this I still don’t think i’ve been as bone tired knackered as after 3 consecutive night turkeys/Cyprus/canaries with driving home between. I never could prepare properly for 0500 reports. I didn’t like the seasonal skewing and working hard throughout the summer.

The fleet? The LH ac were brand new 10 years ago. The current crop of fleet replacement 757s are about 15 years old - what’s the average age of the tck fleet?

Hope this helps

dh

[Jonty]

Are they basing in the UK DH? Or is it still Leipzig?

[deltahotel]

Main European operating base is Leipzig, but crews are based there and also EMA. We’re taking on a lot of non brits so I think there are EMA basings on offer.

[geardown1]

Without turning this into a DHL thread rather than a Thomas Cook thread, can you shed some light on the FO salary, roster stability and routes/trips/layovers you get from EMA?

[L1011effoh]

The fleet? The LH ac were brand new 10 years ago. The current crop of fleet replacement 757s are about 15 years old - what’s the average age of the tck fleet?


Most of the ex-TCX 757s ended up as freighters - so you may well be flying them! They were replaced by brand new A321s a few years ago, although a few older ones still remain. Long haul aircraft are older though.

[deltahotel]

Geardown1. May I direct you to a long thread on DHK on the Freight Dogs forum which will probably answer most of your questions? To kickstart you though. I think ppjn is about right on salaries. Once a roster is published the dates are set and can’t be changed without agreement. They are published mid month for the next month plus one, so,in 10 days or so we will get May’s roster. Within a rostered block of work change is normal, so if ending up in Madrid instead of Stockholm or Casablanca instead of Frankfurt is something you’d find difficult then walk away now. Work blocks are usually 3-6 days long followed by days off. These are sometimes short but we have 162 days contractually free of duty pa (42leave and 120 off) so it has to balance out eventually.

Routes from ema are the same as from LEJ, you just normally start by getting to LEJ. There are a few routes that go through ema (eg edi, cph/orb, mad) but they can fit into anyone’s roster. Think of a big European city and you’ll end up there or near there sooner or later!

Hope this helps - please read through the other thread which will probably answer a lot of questions

dh

[NoelEvans]

Yeah. If you like perpetual nights.
​​​​
Yep, nothing like flying 30-year old frames exclusively at night for less money than pax airlines. You do fly less hours, but every hour of flying at 2-6 am is killing you much faster than the ones flown during daylight.

Ah, those myths again!

deltahotel has quite successfully countered the argument about 'airframe age'. I would also like to add that one couldn't claim that a B747-8F would be a "30-year old frame" (not at all that I am on those!!) There are also B777F and B767F aircraft straight off the factory floor. Also, for those "30-year old frames" that are used, only the types tough enough to last that long are used (haven't seen any A320Fs?). But then, I am not a 'new aircraft snob' so none of that matters to me.

Then there's the 'perpetual night' bit. It's much nicer time to fly if you don't like slot delays, holding and speed controls. There are one or two places where you might queue behind one or two other aeroplanes at the RWY hold before departure but generally you start, taxi and go, without even having to wait for a 'secure cabin'. And none of those horrible 'earlies' with long duty periods (I haven't done an 'early' with more than a single sector of only 65 minutes flying for ages now).

And there's "... but every hour of flying at 2-6 am is killing you much faster than the ones flown during daylight." Well... I've just been for an eye check and my optometrist has said that my eyes are doing better than when I was flying with daylight glare (no significant change with my eyes over the past two years of night flying, the other side of the earth from the sun, must be a good sign). And of course, although I know that some of it is 'sling-shotted' around to the other side of the globe, all that solar radiation isn't blasting us all the time at work. Now for that other bit of the myth: I compared rosters with a 'holiday' pilot for part of last year and over the same period he was flying more hours between 10pm and 6am than I was!! In summer I constantly hear more 'pax' pilots on the R/T at 2am than us 'night flyers'! (And I know that they'll be repeating that relentlessly during the summer while I can enjoy half of summer in my garden with a G&T if I wish.)

So, summing those two up, my health isn't suffering and I actually often fly less late at night than others

Maybe my pay is a bit less. I compared my average monthly 'take home' over my first year in this job with the same over the last year in my previous job and was surprised how little the difference was (double digit figures!) But I have a huge number more Days Off, especially in summer.

But here comes the important bit (especially as this is a Job Security rather than a 'Job Ts&Cs' Thread): I spend most of the nights of the year (over 200) at home in bed asleep as long as I wish (no alarm clock unless it is to fit in with any social occasions), sleeping soundly without lying awake wondering if my job is secure.

[NoelEvans]

I agree with you about cosmic radiation, but I was talking about solar radiation.

My optometrist today was specifically talking about the effects of UV.

I was not talking about scheduled pax flying at midnight, I specifically said 2am. That isn't "only shifting your nights sleep a few hours one way or t'other" (And if I'm working at that time I have almost never started work before 6pm, unlike the early- to mid- afternoon report times that those pax flights still on frequency at 2am have had.)

I don't experience "... hoovers slamming against [my] door in the bargain". I was concerned about sleeping during the day when I started this job, but I have found it to be hardly any problem. It has been immensely better than that dreaded alarm clock that used to go off at silly o' clock for 'earlies', that was a real 'killer' especially when having to set off for a 10 to 12 hour day at that silly o' clock.

But back to Job Security: I sleep comfortably at night not worrying about Job Security. This is a good sector of the industry to be in for Job Security.

[hobnobanyone]

deltahotel‘s Post is the most valid one on this Thread, yet everyone seems to be ignoring it.

Often called “the industry’s best kept secret”, it seems to be easy to see why it remains a ‘secret’ when people like deltahotel state it so clearly and yet everyone ignores it. Freight is growing well (airfreight services contribute £7.2 billion to the UK economy and support 151,000 jobs) and that has to be the answer to thoughts on Job Security.

I’m totally in agreement with Deltahotel and Noelevans.

I’m a converted Freight Dog from passenger flying and have to say that without doubt, in my opinion it’s the safest and most secure arm of aviation in the UK at the moment. It doesn’t get thought about much because of “glamour” of passenger flying, but I enjoy it. Lots of time at home and down route to explore new places, excellent T&Cs, varied routes and network, and the company look after us well too. Certain UK based freight airlines have got a fantastic and almost unparalleled opportunity post brexit, whatever the outcome is...

But as it’s not passengers, it’ll never be treated in the same light. Long may it continue to be the best kept secret in the industry.

I must also comment on the myth of perpetual nights too. I sleep more now than I ever did in passenger flying, we now have individual beds in Leipzig with our own personal toilet facilities including - perfect for grabbing a few hours in between flights. Where, personally, the big change has been is that I hated earlies. I struggled with sleep hugely. Now, in the freight world, I fly to LEJ or equivalent, have a couple of hours sleep (which is what I would get before an early!), then do an hour Long sector on average and then get more sleep. The end result though is that actually I am so much less tired than I ever was flying passengers.

Day flying is also on the increase. Plus there are a number of flights you can treat as earlies if you do so wish - and get a full night of sleep ahead of work.

It really isn’t as grim as a/ it was and b/ it is painted as. Nights don’t agree with everyone, granted, but if like me you’re a night owl as opposed to someone gets up Dawn’s crack (errrm yeah!), then actually it works pretty well indeed. Plus, you’re hardly ever doing more than 300 hours a year flying on the SH fleet.

It is strange though that in flying freight for a good time now, I have not had to phone in fatigued once. Whereas in the middle of summer, while the rosters were biting hard...

It is all food for thought and opinions though. As I said, it’s not for everyone. But if you want stability, security and a good home/work balance... there are many worse options out there.

Now I’ll head back into the Freightdogs forum with a tin hat on.