Indian Air Strikes in Pakistan

[ORAC]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/26/pakistan-india-jets-breached-ceasefire-line-kashmir-bomb

India claims airstrikes on Pakistan 'terror camps' across disputed Kashmir border

Indian ministers have said that air force jets have struck “terror camps” across the ceasefire line in Kashmir, the first aerial bombing over the disputed border since the country went to war with Pakistan (https://www.theguardian.com/world/pakistan) in 1971.

“The military has taken this necessary step for the country’s security. It was an act of extreme valour. PM [Narendra] Modi had earlier given the armed forces the freedom to take action. Today, the entire country is with the forces,” said Prakash Javadekar, the human resources development minister, in the first official acknowledgement of the operation on Tuesday.......

The Indian army and senior ministers have yet to officially comment but sources told an Indian news agency that 12 fighter jets had crossed into Pakistani territory and destroyed a militant training camp. India’s cabinet committee on security was meeting in Delhi and was expected to make a statement afterwards.

Pakistan’s armed forces spokesman major-general Asif Ghafoor said on Tuesday morning there had been contact between the two countries’ aircraft after a breach by the Indian side.........

[CISAtSea]

I love the way this raid has been described as "heightening tensions". I wonder what our view would be if France bombed us?

[oldmansquipper]

I love the way this raid has been described as "heightening tensions". I wonder what our view would be if France bombed us?

probably relief, as they would be sure to surrender shortly after.......

IGMC.

[Archimedes]

I love the way this raid has been described as "heightening tensions". I wonder what our view would be if France bombed us?

'In a bombing duel with the French, they would squeal before we do'

MRAF Viscount Trenchard, 1923.

Rumours that he wanted this included as official RAF doctrine in AP1300 are unproven....

[TBM-Legend]

I love the way this raid has been described as "heightening tensions". I wonder what our view would be if France bombed us?

What's wrong with an RAF air strike on the 'terrorist camps' in the Calais area?

[tartare]

That's quite a long way inside Pakistan - about 50-60kms northeast of Abbottabad.

[Lonewolf_50]

Why didn't they go further in? Apparently, those whose airspace it was are unable to stop them. (Or perhaps asleep at the wheel)

[denlopviper]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1920/screenshot_20190227_112028_earth_ebb7932bb60fbdf066f49103ed5 8220382ff440f.jpg
Hardly. They were within 5NM of the line of control and total duration inside Pakistani airspace was less than a minute..

the village mentioned is Balakot 34°31'58"N 73°21'20"E

the line of controls closest point is 34°31'11"N 73°25'48"E

[denlopviper]

Also


In response to PAF strikes this morning as released by MoFA, IAF crossed LOC. PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace. One of the aircraft fell inside AJ&K while other fell inside IOK. One Indian pilot arrested by troops on ground while two in the area.

Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor (@OfficialDGISPR)

https://twitter.com/OfficialDGISPR

[BVRAAM]

I just hope they don't nuke each other.

I have a little bit of understanding of the rivalry and at times hatred between the two countries. This is looking ugly.

[DroneDog]

I have just read on various sources that India has claimed to have shot down a Pakistani F16

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/pakistan-air-force-f-16-fighter-jet-shot-down-indian-air-force-shoot-indian-air-space-jammu-and-kashmir-indian-air-strikes/373377

[ORAC]

Pakistan has also retaliated....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-27/pakistani-jets-violate-indian-air-space-in-kashmir-pti-reports

Pakistan Downs Two Indian Jets, Pilot Arrested, Army Says

Pakistani fighter jets shot down two Indian aircraft on Wednesday, according to a military spokesman, in a dramatic escalation just one day after the Indian Air Force bombed a terrorist training camp inside Pakistan.

Pakistan’s air force "shot down two Indian aircraft inside Pakistani airspace," said military spokesman Asif Ghafoor. One of the aircraft fell inside Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, and the other crashed on India’s side of the Line of Control. An Indian pilot ejected over Pakistani territory and was arrested, he said.

Pakistan’s air force struck at targets inside Indian-controlled Kashmir on Wednesday, but did so from their own airspace, according to a separate statement from Pakistan’s foreign ministry.

"We have no intention of escalation, but are fully prepared to do so if forced into that paradigm. That is why we undertook the action with clear warning and in broad daylight," the Pakistan foreign ministry statement said......

[seafury45]

interesting. Our wonderful news outlets here in Australia are reporting that an Indian Air Force jet crashed, (not shot down) and both crew killed. Our news outlets are not renowned for accuracy! I cannot post a link but it is nine.com.au

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/1100645879025975296?s=21

[tartare]

A pic posted on Twitter just now showed the wreckage of what looked like a Hawk!
Had an IAF tail-flash.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0ZMqjXWoAE1x89.jpg:large

Pic is actually from a year old crash Odisha's Mayurbhanj district.

http://www.millenniumpost.in/nation/iafs-hawk-aircraft-crashes-in-odisha-pilot-safe-290478

[denlopviper]

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/1100645879025975296?s=21

Acatually nope. All fighters back and accounted for.

However the 2 IAF jets shot down. Pilots captured. ID of pilots to be released soon.

total of 3 IAF aircraft loss. 2 in engagement with PAF and one noncombat loss

[Wizofoz]

So what type was the Indian aircraft, and was it air-to-air or ground fire?

[denlopviper]

So what type was the Indian aircraft, and was it air-to-air or ground fire?

Air to air engagement. waiting for details

but here's one of the IAF pilots

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x901/img_20190227_wa0023_f0387540c12d039225ad2efd820543fb7b0e9d26 .jpg

[oldmansquipper]

Q: any JF 17 "Thunder" in the action?

[ORAC]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-jet-crashes-in-budgam-district-of-kashmir/articleshow/68179821.cms

A day after the Indian Air Force's (IAF) strike in Pakistan, an IAF aircraft crashed on Wednesday in Budgam district of Jammu and Kashmir, killing two people, officials said. As per initial reports, the aircraft crashed due to technical failure.

Officials in Srinagar described the downed aircraft as a jet, which crashed in an open field near Garend Kalaan village in Budgam at 10.05 am. Other officials in New Delhi said it was an Mi-17 helicopter. The conflicting reports could not be immediately reconciled.

The jet crashed in an open field near Garend Kalaan village in Budgam at 10.05 am, the officials said. The Srinagar officials said the aircraft broke into two and caught fire immediately. The identity of the two deceased could not be confirmed immediately, they said.

Meanwhile, in a separate report, officials said that Pakistani jets violated Indian air space in J-K's Poonch and Rajouri sectors, drop bombs on way out. Officials said at least three Pakistan combat aircraft entered Indian airspace.

As part of precautionary measure, civilian air traffic has been stopped at various airports. Airports in Jammu, Srinagar and Leh have been put on high alert. Flights to Jammu, Srinagar, Leh, Amritsar, Pathankot, Chandigadh, Dehradun and Dharamshala have been suspended till further notice........

[dead_pan]

Reports suggest it was a helo (Mi-17?) which crashed in Budgam.

[tartare]

Mrs T is an Indian language producer for SBS down here in Oz.
We've just watched a video - alive but bloodied and blindfolded pilot - not clear which nationality.
Quite a bit of concern here at the heat and antipathy already between the two communities - worry about reprisal attacks locally.
We're hearing flights in the region may be suspended until May.

[ORAC]

Pakistan has closed airspace to all civilian traffic.

[Captivep]

Indian government spokesman has just confirmed that its aircraft was lost, and that it was a MIG 21.

[denlopviper]

1 MiG21 from 51st Sqdn (confirmed) and 1 SU30 (waiting confirmation by indian side) were shot down as per the reports here.

EDIT

Both shoot downs by JF17s, No F16s involved.

[tartare]

Wow - that pilot was lucky to be able to get out of a MiG-21.
Ever sat in the cockpit of one of those things?
Terrifying.
Cramped, with hardly any room, big old horrible gunsight right in your face, and feet way down in the footwells to get to the rudder pedals.
NOTAM just issued reopening Indian civilian flight operations.

[downsizer]

Mig 21. The Indian Wing Commanders ID is all over the internet, who was the Sqn Commander. Indeed he even had his name on his flight suit. Interesting that they didn't sanitise themselves.

[Lonewolf_50]

Hardly. They were within 5NM of the line of control and total duration inside Pakistani airspace was less than a minute.. Ah, thanks for the picture and the explanation, as well as the correction to the initial report. (Also thanks for the other various bits and pieces).
As I scrolled down the various tweets from Major General Ghafoor, I noted this bit
I noted this bit:

Kashmir remains a long pending unresolved issue on UN agenda since 1948. Decades of atrocities by Indian Occupation Forces have failed to suppress ever strengthening legitimate freedom struggle. Determined Kashmiris shall succeed IA.
#KashmirSolidarityDay
Also noted that the initial raid was done, scramble happened, no engagement. Following day, IAF tries again versus an alerted opponent, and JF17 shows that it can wax a Mig 21 and an Su.

[enginesuck]

Looks like one of the pilots were surrounded by a mob ( I have seen a video of him being slapped around) Fortunately the Pakistan Army rescued him from the mob in the video below he looks in good spirits.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2618644291541170&id=795548680517416

[sandiego89]

Purported photo of the downed MiG-21 (rather flat) here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47383634

Be interesting if this comes out to be a BVR kill from a JF17.

[dead_pan]

#BREAKING: It is now confirmed that #India Air Force has heavily massed its fighters at Srinagar & Adampur Air Bases tonight. Even an Il-78MKI tanker has come a long way from Agra AFS. Several Su-30MKIs & MiG-29UPGs are now flying over #Kashmir.

​​​​​​Tweet from an Indian journo doing the rounds tonight

[hunterboy]

Could someone explain why you would take your name off your flightsuit if you are going to disclose your name/rank and serial number anyway if captured?

[Rhino power]

Could someone explain why you would take your name off your flightsuit if you are going to disclose your name/rank and serial number anyway if captured?

I guess one reason is you can't give a false name/rank if you have the 'real' ones still on your flight suit?

-RP

[hunterboy]

Wouldn’t you risk being shot as a spy in such circumstances? I would have thought you’d want to keep the various protections afforded by the G.C?

[beardy]

Not everyone follows the Geneva Convention.

[frodo_monkey]

Convention would be to wear a flying suit sanitised of badges and insignia, but to carry certain forms of ID and wear dog tags.

[Training Risky]

Could someone explain why you would take your name off your flightsuit if you are going to disclose your name/rank and serial number anyway if captured?
The gold-standard in the RAF was to wear a 'clean' grow-bag devoid of badges AND velcro. Just rank slides.
You wouldn't want an interrogator examining your brightly coloured 'Jaguar 1000+ Heures' badge and learning more about you than you want him to know...before you even opened your mouth!
Same principle for the velcro patch said badge is attached to. You don't want an interrogator holding up your distinctive triangular velcro patch and using it to help lead the Q&A session where he wants it to go!

But that is old-school Law of Armed Conflict rules against an enemy who follows the GC!

Luckily for this chap, Pakistan is a signatory to the GC Art 1 to 4 and the first 2 protocols. All good then.

[sandiego89]

Could someone explain why you would take your name off your flightsuit if you are going to disclose your name/rank and serial number anyway if captured?

Besides limiting your exposure, it is important to note that the first folks you meet on the ground may not give you a warm welcome...plenty of stories about aircrew literally being met with pitchforks on the ground by the locals and expecting the worse until officials arrived on scene. Something about folks not liking being bombed...

Even Gary Powers after being shot down in his "weather research" U-2 feared the locals would finish him off.

[jolihokistix]

Maybe he forgot to stick on his "I love Pakistan" badges.

[MPN11]

Perhaps stopping wearing badges all over flying clothing would simplify matters? Or is all that stuff operationally essential? ;)

[tartare]

Conventions plural.
Specifically the third being applicable.

[Octane]

Is there such a thing as a F-16 specific air to air missile? BBC is reporting that missile fragments found are identified as coming from a F-16?

[ORAC]

AFAIAA, the F-16 is the only aircraft on either side which carries the AIM-120C.

Early reports said the engagements were were made by F-16s on AD CAP using AIM-120 whilst JF-17s forced the strike package. Those reports were hastily withdrawn when it was pointed out the terms of the F-16 sale did not allow their offensive use.

India Shows Proof U.S. Made F-16s And AIM-120 Missiles Were Used By Pakistan In Aerial Brawl - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26689/india-shows-proof-u-s-made-f-16s-and-aim-120-missiles-were-used-by-pakistan-in-aerial-brawl)


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/image_070263be4d85eb70dd99101eb47039fee2c3af30.jpeg

[dead_pan]

Surely a CAP over Pakistani territory (incl the bit of Kashmir they administer) would constitute defensive use?

Also, to my untrained eye, the debris of the AMRAAM pictured doesn't look like something from a weapon which detonated, more something recovered from a crash site (lending weight to India's claim of an F16 kill?)

[ORAC]

Probably totally spurious, both sides have a reputation for duplicity.

TASS: World - Eight Indian fighters took on 24 Pakistani jets in unprecedented dogfight ? media (http://tass.com/world/1046940)

[dead_pan]

Yup, the truth hasn't even got of bed...

No footage of wreckage of either the claimed F16 or Su30, suggesting it was a) propaganda or b) they conveniently came down on home turf (even then, there's always someone with a phone...)

[Lordflasheart]

.......
Continuing the rumour-fest ...... According to Zee News of India - https://zeenews.india.com/india/crystal-maze-missiles-spice-2000-bombs-iaf-mirage-2000s-lethal-arsenal-that-destroyed-pakistani-terror-camps-2183715.html

- the initial strike by IAF Mirage 2000s used Crystal Maze missiles and Spice 2000 guided bombs. Both apparently have significant standoff capability.

.....

[denlopviper]

Surely a CAP over Pakistani territory (incl the bit of Kashmir they administer) would constitute defensive use?

Also, to my untrained eye, the debris of the AMRAAM pictured doesn't look like something from a weapon which detonated, more something recovered from a crash site (lending weight to India's claim of an F16 kill?)

in indian experts own words, not an F16
https://youtu.be/r0e_XIyxQh8

[TEEEJ]

in indian experts own words, not an F16

He is quite correct. Those claims that the wreckage was from an F-16 are just ridiculous!

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/696x398/img_20190301_wa0048_0510e3cf2d154af873d409fab9266bf3b80ed54c .jpg

You can see the same internal construction in the following video showing the wreckage of a Yugoslav MiG-21bis.

BgmDOHScjdE

The claims also extend to the MiG-21 wreckage as being from an F-16. It is clearly the tail section of a MiG-21. They are trying to claim that the circled part shows the serial of a Pakistani F-16. No F-16 is constructed like that!

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1209x804/bison_a322b1e3c60803a08df42a0737f3c37c7e68fff1.jpg

In fact there is a serial visible on that wreckage and it is on the inside of the inspection panel. You can just make out CU-2XXX. (Other figures obscured). The MiG-21 That was shot down was serial CU-2328. I've ringed it in yellow and turned the image 180.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/907x607/mig_21_551d70eec7c633ef9d849c5af254c8a949e517b9.jpg

See following video showing the wreckage of the Indian MiG-21. See at 1:14 and 1:55 for the wreckage that is being ludicrously claimed as a Pakistani F-16.

nHwzTLL4Ffg

[denlopviper]

The initial first day report by the indian media is where the su30 claim is coming from. They from went claiming 1 mig21 and 1 su30 being shot down to just 1 mig21 **** down.

https://youtu.be/pKrAja1d3Gc

[denlopviper]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x540/fb_img_1551471880205_ce7a895e64918df7ca75233ccb8fdf8a77efccd 3.jpg

Can anyone identify this. This doesnt look like a drop tank from a mig21. Looks more like the dragchute boom on the flanker but cant be sure..?

[TEEEJ]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x540/fb_img_1551471880205_ce7a895e64918df7ca75233ccb8fdf8a77efccd 3.jpg

Can anyone identify this. This doesnt look like a drop tank from a mig21. Looks more like the dragchute boom on the flanker but cant be sure..?

It is the rear of a fin less external fuel tank. Looks like the MiG-21 was equipped with a centre line fuel tank.

See from 4:34 in the following video and see the fin less fuel tank with the nipple on the end. You can also see it briefly at the beginning.

wUq2GztigTk

See it being loaded onto the truck in the following video at 1:22

nHwzTLL4Ffg

[denlopviper]

Awesome, thanks!

[TEEEJ]

Awesome, thanks!

No problem. :ok:

[DroneDog]

One sense a sales opportunity, perhaps those Rafale and Typhoon sales teams are hastily booking flights to India.

[ORAC]

Alert 5 » Operation Balakot was a failure - Military Aviation News (http://alert5.com/2019/03/02/operation-balakot-was-a-failure/)

Operation Balakot was a failure

A post strike analysis by Michael J. Sheldon for the Digital Forensic Lab suggests India’s air strike inside Pakistan was a failure.

Using commercial satellite imagery, Sheldon was able to confirm that the strike had taken place near Jaba Top. Images taken on Feb. 27 showed only impacts in the woods and none of the surrounding structures seem to be damage.

https://medium.com/dfrlab/surgical-strike-in-pakistan-a-botched-operation-7f6cda834b24

[TEEEJ]

AFAIAA, the F-16 is the only aircraft on either side which carries the AIM-120C.

Early reports said the engagements were were made by F-16s on AD CAP using AIM-120 whilst JF-17s forced the strike package. Those reports were hastily withdrawn when it was pointed out the terms of the F-16 sale did not allow their offensive use.

India Shows Proof U.S. Made F-16s And AIM-120 Missiles Were Used By Pakistan In Aerial Brawl - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26689/india-shows-proof-u-s-made-f-16s-and-aim-120-missiles-were-used-by-pakistan-in-aerial-brawl)




AIM-120 not from Taiwanese inventory as claimed in Pakistan media.

The Air Force in Taipei said Friday afternoon that after checking the information, it had concluded that the identification numbers shown did not match any of its missiles, and were not compatible with any weapons systems in its possession, the Central News Agency reported.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3648621

[ORAC]

Contract number is from a batch of 500 sold to Pakistan.

http://alert5.com/2019/03/01/taiwan-refutes-its-aim-120-was-found-in-india-story/

[Fonsini]

It seems that at least one Pakistani aircraft was shot down, as it is now being reported that Pakistani locals beat the pilot to death thinking he was an Indian. This may account for the original Pakistani report that they had captured 2 Indian pilots and not one.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=usb2a_1551531205

The most believable version of events is that the Bison went after an F-16 of unknown mark and downed it with an R-73 but was then in turn shot down by an AIM-120C5 launched by a second F-16. Although I must admit that AMRAAM fragment doesn’t look like it came from a missile that actually detonated.

[denlopviper]

It seems that at least one Pakistani aircraft was shot down, as it is now being reported that Pakistani locals beat the pilot to death thinking he was an Indian. This may account for the original Pakistani report that they had captured 2 Indian pilots and not one.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=usb2a_1551531205

The most believable version of events is that the Bison went after an F-16 of unknown mark and downed it with an R-73 but was then in turn shot down by an AIM-120C5 launched by a second F-16. Although I must admit that AMRAAM fragment doesn’t look like it came from a missile that actually detonated.

serious doubts about that as everyone has a smartphone and recording everything. There is even a video of the mig21 being hit and the landing of the Indian pilot. Plus there is no wreckage of any type of an F16. Just 1 fragment of an Aim120.

Besides if PAF did lose an F16, the Americans would be all over pakistan right now. It is interesting how even the rank and name of the supposed pilot is known yet PAF can someone deny it and the family is silent...

time will tell I guess

[TBM-Legend]

Although I must admit that AMRAAM fragment doesn’t look like it came from a missile that actually detonated.


If only one AIM-120 was fired this could be from a second one still attached to the F-16....

I think we need Inspector Piroit...

[KiloB]

Slightly strange that India is using Mig21 as a front line AD aircraft against an opponent fielding F16s. Surely, even upgraded, they would be at a significant disadvantage?

[Lonewolf_50]

Slightly strange that India is using Mig21 as a front line AD aircraft against an opponent fielding F16s. Surely, even upgraded, they would be at a significant disadvantage? They appear to have decided that "you go to the fight with the air force that you have" This would put them in good company with Don Rumsfeld (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/08/international/middleeast/iraqbound-troops-confront-rumsfeld-over-lack-of.html)

"You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time," Mr. Rumsfeld said.
That strike might also have been a probe, to gauge Pakistani reactions.
Hard to say.

[denlopviper]

That strike might also have been a probe, to gauge Pakistani reactions.
Hard to say.

like the last fabricated so called surgical strike (atleast this time there actually was an airspace violation)? Or when they shot down an Pakistan Navy Atlantique Link (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Naval_Air_Arm_Atlantique_shootdown) in Pakistani airspace? There must be a better way to test the reaction

after all Indians claim the Pakistanis to be warmongers. If that were the case, the response could have been nuclear. Hell of a gamble if you ask me. Fortunately the Indians proved that not only are Pakistanis sane people, but also that the Pakistanis are better equipped to deal with them, pakistan being at war on the western front since 2001 makes it a very combat hardened military.

But hey what do I know, i am not a military man

[Lonewolf_50]

like the last fabricated so called surgical strike (atleast this time there actually was an airspace violation)? Or when they shot down an Pakistan Navy Atlantique Link (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Naval_Air_Arm_Atlantique_shootdown) in Pakistani airspace? There must be a better way to test the reaction

after all Indians claim the Pakistanis to be warmongers. If that were the case, the response could have been nuclear. Hell of a gamble if you ask me. Fortunately the Indians proved that not only are Pakistanis sane people, but also that the Pakistanis are better equipped to deal with them, pakistan being at war on the western front since 2001 makes it a very combat hardened military.

But hey what do I know, i am not a military man The Atlantique event, being about 20 years old, is a bit long in the tooth to be relevant to this clash. (What/when was the last "surgical strike" that probably wasn't that you refer to?) Is that the same as the Atlantique, or something else?
As to "there must be a better way to test the reaction": must there be? You give the political leadership far too much credit.
I spent over two decades in the military. I will say without reservation that it is not uncommon for orders from on high (at the political level) to come down. Once received and digested, one looks at one's colleagues and asks "what are those idiots in the capital thinking? What were they drinking, or smoking, just before they came up with this cunning plan?"

If the Indian leadership figured they could slip in, deliver some ordnance, and then slip out, they discovered otherwise. That means "Goodonya Pakistan's Air Force, you were on task when you needed to be."

As to "going nuclear" ... my guess is that it would take a lot more than a border incursion in Kashmir to evoke that kind of response.

[denlopviper]

The Atlantique event, being about 20 years old, is a bit long in the tooth to be relevant to this clash. (What/when was the last "surgical strike" that probably wasn't that you refer to?) Is that the same as the Atlantique, or something else?
As to "there must be a better way to test the reaction": must there be? You give the political leadership far too much credit.
I spent over two decades in the military. I will say without reservation that it is not uncommon for orders from on high (at the political level) to come down. Once received and digested, one looks at one's colleagues and asks "what are those idiots in the capital thinking? What were they drinking, or smoking, just before they came up with this cunning plan?"

If the Indian leadership figured they could slip in, deliver some ordnance, and then slip out, they discovered otherwise. That means "Goodonya Pakistan's Air Force, you were on task when you needed to be."

As to "going nuclear" ... my guess is that it would take a lot more than a border incursion in Kashmir to evoke that kind of response.

Surgical strike part 1 Link (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_Line_of_Control_strike#Surgical_strikes)

Yup the Atlantique shoot down probably isnt relevant anymore

completely agree about the political leadership

[orca]

Two points:

AIM-120. If one were to sit with a child and draw a missile that was designed to go towards a target (can’t think of any that aren’t) you probably have an order of march something like: Seeker, guidance unit, some fusing device, frag and ‘energetics’ - then all the petrol and anything else you’ve forgotten. Given the position of the target you’d probably find a clever way of getting it to explode outwards (bit of a given) and preferably forwards. Ergo no real surprise if stuff behind the warhead survives in some form or another.

Ref the Mig-21 being there. Could be as simple as using the simpler aircraft to detonate the air picture for the big boys to tidy up. So long as the detonator escapes and the big boys tidy - not a bad idea. If the detonator ‘collects one’ then you’ve ‘sort of blown it’. Obvs I’ve got no idea what he was doing, hope his back’s OK. Never been a Mig-21 fan myself but it does have supporters - and the Romanians in particular fielded quite a cheeky variant.

[denlopviper]

There is now a semi official claim of an Su30 shoot down and kill credit allotted to a 2nd Pakistani pilot. Mig 21 going to Sq/Ldr and Su30 going to a Wg/Cdr.

News is that the flanker went down on the indian side.

[dead_pan]

Ergo no real surprise if stuff behind the warhead survives in some form or another.

Don't dispute this - my comment related more to the size of the fragment pictured. One would imagine weapons designers would prefer it if the bits were as small as possible to minimise the chances of reverse engineering etc, all other considerations aside.

[dead_pan]

If only one AIM-120 was fired this could be from a second one still attached to the F-16....


Except...one would imagine the propaganda value from parading the tail fin or what whatever from a downed F16 would far outweigh that from a fragment of AMRAAM and bleating about Pakistan breaching their sales agreement with Uncle Sam...

I think we need Inspector Piroit...

Ahh yes, the lesser-known cousin of Inspector Poirot. TBH, given the CSI skills on show on this thread, we need look no further than PPRuNe... (reminds me of that classic thread some time back about the downed F15 in Libya, which the mods eventually took rather a dim view of when it inevitably drifted into irreverence).

[denlopviper]

So official claims are 2 fighters shot down by PAF. 1 mig21 and 1 Su30. Since there us a 2nd alive pilot held by the pakistan army which would mean it was either a 2 seat mig21 or 2 fighters shot down.

india claims 1 F16 which cant be proven as the inventory if the PAF has not changed.

Unofficially no loss to the PAF. 3 fighters shot down plus 1 mi17 which is now slowly being acknowledged as a fratricide by India during the PAF strike.

also the the 2nd pilot being held is neither Indian nor Pakistani. The existence of the captured enemy pilot is being acknowledged officially by the government of pakistan. However the identity has not been revealed. The sudden deployment of long range systems pointing west by pakistan, the THAAD to Israel plus the unofficial sources claim of the pilot being a Israeli are an interesting twist

[Lonewolf_50]

So official claims are 2 fighters shot down by PAF. 1 mig21 and 1 Su30. Got it so far.
Since there is a 2nd alive pilot held by the Pakistan army which would mean it was either a 2 seat mig 21 or 2 fighters shot down. I wasn't aware of 2 seat Mig 21's, but I guess you have to train the pilots somehow. India claims 1 F16 which cant be proven as the inventory if the PAF has not changed. Political hot air, or a case of "initial reports are often wrong" problem?
Unofficially, no loss to the PAF. 3 fighters shot down plus 1 Mi-17 which is now slowly being acknowledged as a fratricide by India during the PAF strike. Ah, blue on blue. (India perspective).
Also the the 2nd pilot being held is neither Indian nor Pakistani. The existence of the captured enemy pilot is being acknowledged officially by the government of Pakistan. However the identity has not been revealed. The sudden deployment of long range systems pointing west by Pakistan, the THAAD to Israel plus the unofficial sources claim of the pilot being a Israeli are an interesting twist
OK, this may take a bit more digging. I am reading from you that there are assertions of an Israeli pilot, flying for (or from within) India during a cross border strike into Pakistan. Or .... an observer in a two seat jet? Or WTF?
I have no idea how to parse your points on the Long Range and THAAD thing.
I thus ask:
Are you saying that Pakistan THAAD is now being "pointed" at Israel due to a belief that a strike from Israel is pending, or that Israeli THAAD is being moved/Deployed?
Unclear as written.

[denlopviper]

OK, this may take a bit more digging. I am reading from you that there are assertions of an Israeli pilot, flying for (or from within) India during a cross border strike into Pakistan. Or .... an observer in a two seat jet? Or WTF?
I have no idea how to parse your points on the Long Range and THAAD thing.
I thus ask:
Are you saying that Pakistan THAAD is now being "pointed" at Israel due to a belief that a strike from Israel is pending, or that Israeli THAAD is being moved/Deployed?
Unclear as written.

To be clear I'm just quoting things in the media.

Sorry i think I wasnt clear. I meant to refer to the US deploying the THAAD to Israel. Pakistan has no missile defense system. Pakistan deployed long range ballistic missiles systems targeting both Israel and india.

About the Israeli pilot, my guess is as good as yours. But the news is that it is an israeli pilot. Probably from the su30 that was downed. That would make him part of the ADA flights put up to intercept the PAF fighters.

what is official is that there is a second pilot in custody. Question is why isnt he being acknowledged by india? Or being paraded by pakistan?

[Lonewolf_50]

OK, Thanks, I am not sure that "US deploying THAAD" to Israel has anything to do with Pakistan's scrap with India. Nor do I see a direct link between Pakistan's long range missiles (and targeting Israel?) as necessarily related unless the news is saying that the latter is a change that arose within the last week or two. Still confusing, but thanks for explaining in any case. Give it a day or two and the smoke may clear.
Question is why isn't he being acknowledged by India? Or being paraded by Pakistan? Good questions, and my guess is "politics" is where the answer starts.

[TEEEJ]

New Delhi: A MiG-21 Bison crashed in Bikaner’s Shobhasar Ki Dhani area today, a defence spokesperson revealed. The pilot managed to eject safely.

Indian Air Force’s MiG-21 Bison took off from Nal on a routine mission on Friday afternoon when all of a sudden it showed technical snag. Reportedly, a bird had hit the plane but there has been no official confirmation yet.

The pilot of the aircraft ejected himself safely and there have been no reports of any loss of life.

https://kalingatv.com/nation/mig-21-bison-crashes-in-rajasthan-pilots-ejects-safely/

[TEEEJ]

The most believable version of events is that the Bison went after an F-16 of unknown mark and downed it with an R-73 but was then in turn shot down by an AIM-120C5 launched by a second F-16. Although I must admit that AMRAAM fragment doesn’t look like it came from a missile that actually detonated.

Doesn't look like the Indian MiG-21 pilot that was captured managed to fire any of his missiles. All 4 air to air missiles have been accounted for on the Indian MiG-21 that was shot down. The wreckage of 2 x R-73 (AA-11 Archer) and 2 x R-77s (AA-12 Adder). The MiG-21 would have been carrying a centre line tank with the four under wing pylons for air to air missiles.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x636/54401904_2051765461597404_3996677427836223488_n_d4401cc431c5 79365b083c297333a80abbf57d9e.jpg

See following forum links for missile wreckage pics.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iaf-r-73-r-77-aams-recovered-from-mig-21-wreckage-l-abhinandan-did-not-fire-any-missile.607189/page-11#post-11287514

https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/modern-military-aviation/3854325-indian-air-force-news-and-discussion-2019-touch-the-sky-with-glory/page15

[ORAC]

So, after ditching Russian AAM for Israeli, they are now doing an emergency purchase of Israeli software defined radios to provide its fighter force with a common secure/data link capable comms system.

Not mentioned is what the datalink will be (L16 or other?) and how it will integrated with radar/sensors/displays etc.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/iaf-to-buy-sdrs-from-israel-to-ensure-secure-communication-between-fighter-jets/461569

IAF to buy SDRs from Israel to ensure secure communication between fighter jets

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) bombed Balakot on February 26 this year. The next day, it fought off a determined effort by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to attack Indian army installations. During both battles, the IAF, when it came to safe communication, found itself deficient. And in future, it could lead to costly failures.

Immediately after Balakot, the IAF has decided to quickly buy Software Defined Radios (SDR), and integrate them with the aircraft fleets. This emergency purchase of SDRs from Israel will be for the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Sukhoi-30 fighters of the IAF.

The SDRs will ensure secure communication not just between fighters in the air, but also between fighters in the air and the ground installations and importantly between the fighters in the air and the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) - the eye in the sky. If there is an attempt to jam, communication can shift to another frequency and continue.

Besides conversations, it will provide secure data linking. This means everyone will know who - whether it is the fighter pilot, the AWACS controllers, the ground plotters - is where. This will help in better "combat control."

"Whatever we were talking could have been heard," a senior official said about the Balakot operations and after. The radios will ensure no one can pick up our communication. And importantly, the data linking will ensure we know who is where."

A small number - about 400 - are being purchased, as is possible during emergency acquisitions. Once the SDRs arrive, it will ensure that for the IAF, silence will truly be golden.

[A_Van]

......
Not mentioned Ned is what the datalink will be (L16 or other?) and how it will integrated with radar/sensors/displays etc.
....


Yes, a very limited portion of data from a layman journo to laymen readers. SDR itself is just a part of low-level stack of protocols. To start (only to start) linking any applications one needs at least smth like C4I-connect adaptor (if an Israeli manufacturer is considered). Then comes middleware (incl. data distribution) layer (yet to be filled in) and only then comes the turn of applications to be made interoperable. This is a very long way....