Airbus Helicopters offering X3/Racer to US Army

[chopper2004]

Airbus Helicopters offering proposing X3 / Racer offshoot to the US Army FARA

https://www.rotorandwing.com/2019/02/19/airbus-a-racer-in-us-army-future-attack-recon-aircraft-competition/

Cheers

[Lonewolf_50]

I'll give Airbus top marks for thinking outside the box, and higher marks for being pure fantasy.
American stuff has to be deployable. That is due to US strategic situation and a thing called geography.
Now look at the profile of that thing, and tell me how you fit it into a C-5 or a C-17, as compared to an Apache.
You've got some significant structural bits spread out that hold the engines/props on.
Is that detachable, or not? If not, don't even bother to show up.

One MAJOR strike against the US Army buying this particular kit, regardless of how neat of a flying machine that it is, unless those two assemblies that end in the propellers are detachable.

[Tatischeff]

Now look at the profile of that thing, and tell me how you fit it into a C-5 or a C-17, as compared to an Apache.
You've got some significant structural bits spread out that hold the engines/props on.
Is that detachable, or not? If not, don't even bother to show up.Your remark is interesting, but the Bell V-280 does not seem to have a foldable system for its large wings and rotors either (unlike the V22) ...

[212man]

I'll give Airbus top marks for thinking outside the box, and higher marks for being pure fantasy.
American stuff has to be deployable. That is due to US strategic situation and a thing called geography.
Now look at the profile of that thing, and tell me how you fit it into a C-5 or a C-17, as compared to an Apache.
You've got some significant structural bits spread out that hold the engines/props on.
Is that detachable, or not? If not, don't even bother to show up.

One MAJOR strike against the US Army buying this particular kit, regardless of how neat of a flying machine that it is, unless those two assemblies that end in the propellers are detachable.

Whatever that picture is meant to represent, it is clearly not what is going to be offered:

“You’re on the right track,” Tumpak said, when asked if the Airbus offering is based on X3 technology. Tumpak spoke to reporters Feb. 19 during a visit to the Airbus plant in Donauworth, Germany

[JimEli]

The USA FARA RFP does not limit aircraft dimensions or stipulate deployment criteria, probably on purpose to avoid disqualifying particular designs. The UTTAS specifications stated that 2 aircraft were required to fit inside an USAF C-130. However, how often has that been done? To this day the H-60 design lives with the consequences. Self-deployment is always an option.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

where there is a will there is a way.

They ship Chinooks by plane. How do they deploy a CH53 to the dust bowl? Super Pumas don't flog across the ocean on their own do they?? What about Russia, how do they get MI 26's great distances?

Thinking outside of the box is a requirement here.

I'm sure if Airbus knows this has to fit in a plane they will design it to do so. They aren't new to this game at all.

[Nubian]

Super Pumas don't flog across the ocean on their own do they??

Yes, they do, lots of ferry flights from France to China etc.

What about Russia, how do they get MI 26's great distances?


They fly them..... fill the cargo compartment with great big ferry-tanks.... or you have to fly the damn thing chopped up as spare parts!

[Evalu8ter]

JimEli,
The C-130/C-141 carriage requirement for UTTAS nearly killed the UH-60 due to the low rotor head causing extensive vibration and drag issues (not to mention concerns over disc/cockpit interaction…) - only solved by the clever introduction of a removable rotor mast extender. It would be interesting to know how often the -60 has been shipped by -130….

[The Sultan]

Your remark is interesting, but the Bell V-280 does not seem to have a foldable system for its large wings and rotors either (unlike the V22) ...



Like the V-22 the production V-280 will be self deployable anywhere in the world and not need an air lift. As for the Sb-1 Defiant it is not self deployable and will not fit in a transport without major disassembly due its height.

[JimEli]

JimEli,
The C-130/C-141 carriage requirement for UTTAS nearly killed the UH-60 due to the low rotor head causing extensive vibration and drag issues (not to mention concerns over disc/cockpit interaction…) - only solved by the clever introduction of a removable rotor mast extender. It would be interesting to know how often the -60 has been shipped by -130….

To my knowledge the mast extension was a design change that occurred in the UTTAS flyoff phase to reduce vibrations at higher airspeeds. The short nose and canted tail rotor are the primary vestiges of the transport requirement.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/334x189/clip_image017_d8fe3ae3b6a764f256d2779b24f115efd2575e00.jpg

I’m aware of one transport via C-130, an incredibly tight fit. Since the C-130 could access smaller airfields, it was therefore thought beneficial. IMHO, a highly impractical form of transport, which in real life situations were avoided through alternative deployment options.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Yes, they do, lots of ferry flights from France to China etc.



They fly them..... fill the cargo compartment with great big ferry-tanks.... or you have to fly the damn thing chopped up as spare parts!


then its not impossible to do that with Airbus' offering now is it? Thats all I am saying. where there is a will there is a way. The Generals and who ever else makes the plans just need to think more to get it done

[JohnDixson]

The decision to raise the main rotor had nothing to do with vibrations. It had everything to do wit a 20-25 kt deficiency at the high speed level flight end of things, compared with predicted performance. An aero performance expert performed a detailed analysis which indicated the culprit was the upflow of air over the relatively flat sloped cockpit front, which was stalling the entire inner front part of the rotor disc. He produced some dramatically impressive, wall sized computer visual flow mosaics “ proving “ his theory. Big meeting and a decision to raise the rotor to gain back the predicted speed. A monumental effort, including a full scale fatigue test to the modified main shaft, resulted in flying the extended shaft 30 days after the meeting.

The first flight test ( done at design GW ) forward flight Vh ( max speed at 100%Q-2800 SHP then ) revealed an increase of exactly zero knots. BUT, the 5P vibes ( not a typo ) were reduced dramatically and the raised rotor also eliminated an “ elephant in the room “ issue with regard to main blade to cockpit/engine nacelle/tail cone clearance* in operational/maneuvering flight conditions and victory was declared. Said engineer departed the company some months later.
*there is a picture in the SA archives showing the cockpit view from behind with yours truly and Dick Wright, then Chief Pilot. On the top of the instrument panel is a horizontally oriented instrumentation box showing real time blade clearance over the cockpit, engine nacelles and tail cone. There were four modified Chicago Aerial electronic blade tracker sensors feeding blade clearance data to that box and thru the telemetry system to the flight test engineers. I’ll add one early data point: just doing low speed flight in the Stratford flight field, and slowing down normally back to a hover from a paced forward flight at 35 kts, the clearance to the cockpit roof structure was down to 5 inches. There is a great story about how that box got there, but you won’t find it in the book.

[IFMU]

The short nose and canted tail rotor are the primary vestiges of the transport requirement.
The UH60 was a helicopter out of my Father's generation. I had pretty much been indoctrinated to be part of the Sikorsky family as he always talked shop with me. My understanding of the canted tail rotor is they did it for the "free" lift. Years later Sikorsky and Boeing were team mates on Comanche and my dad was discussing the competition with his colleagues at Boeing. The Boeing UTTAS entry was about 400lbs short of the lift spec requirement. Their smart people did an analysis of the Sikorsky entry and figured we were short too. They neglected the canted tail rotor which added about 400 lbs of lift at max gross weight.

The lift was not totally free as it mucked up some of the handling qualities. But, that made for some interesting work for him as he was a flight controls guy.

[JimEli]

The UH60 was a helicopter out of my Father's generation.
...


It was from my generation. Quoting the Sikorsky Archives (https://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-70%20(YUH-60A%20UTTAS).PHP):

“The Sikorsky UTTAS was designed with its 4-blade tail rotor canted upwards 20 degrees to provide approximately 400 pounds of extra lift. This lift at the tail permitted the aircraft center of gravity to be placed aft of the main rotor, which allowed the nose and cockpit to be moved aft thereby shortening the fuselage length to better fit inside the C-130 cabin during air transport.”

[JimEli]

The decision to raise the main rotor had nothing to do with vibrations.
...

*there is a picture in the SA archives showing the cockpit view from behind with yours truly and Dick Wright, then Chief Pilot. On the top of the instrument panel is a horizontally oriented instrumentation box showing real time blade clearance over the cockpit, engine nacelles and tail cone.
...

Thanks for the clarification John.

In some old A model variants we flew, there was a small tab riveted to the upper windshield support, in front of the engine power control levers. I always thought it an odd gizmo, and could never figure what is was for. Several years ago, I contacted a Sikorsky test pilot, who had to ask around the plant until finding an old engineer who said it was a mounting point for a piece of test equipment. The tab was not removed from the production plans, the result being, the mounting bracket was incorporated into many an early Blackhawk. Possibly the box you refer to?

[JohnDixson]

JimEli, re post #15; I don’t recall the tab you refer to in front of the throttle quadrant. Can say that it wasn’t part of the blade clearance instrumentation, as that cockpit clearance senso was further aft on the roof so as to be the least clearance point as measured from a straight line from the elastomeric flapping hinge to forward structure. ( I do not recall this detail, but typically in discussions like this, there was additional consideration of the blade bending resultant after contact with the in flight droop stop ).

[HeliTester]

Like the V-22 the production V-280 will be self deplorable anywhere in the world and not need an air lift. As for the Sb-1 Defiant it is not self deployable and will not fit in a transport without major disassembly due its height.]
The production V-280 will be self deplorable?....Freudian slip?....Sorry Sultan, I just couldn't resist.

[JohnDixson]

IFMU.in post #13, you noted: " The Boeing UTTAS entry was about 400lbs short of the lift spec requirement."

Had not heard it expressed that way. From experience during the fly-off, there were two events which indicated that the hover performance wad different by a very significant margin.

1. Ft Rucker Al Shell Field. Training of the Army pilots designated to perform the operational eval at FT Campbell. Same day-same weather. Both the Boeing and SA aircraft had cargo hooks approved for 7000 lbs.The sling load consisted of seven, 1000 lb drums, individually attached by steel cable to a collector ring, which could then be easily slipped into the hook by a ground crewman standing on one of the drums.SA went first and starting with full fuel, trained all their 10 pilots, stopping after 5 to refuel. No issues with the pilots or load. Boeing then started and could not budge the 7 drum load. Disconnected one drum and tried again. No luck with 6000 lbs. Disconnected another drum and just about lifted that 5000 lb load to a low hover, from which they carefully did a very slow takeoff.No HOGE noted.
2. FT Campbell KY. One UTTAS requirement was to sling the new Army vehicle called a Gamma Goat. Weight was 7000 lbs. The Army pilots/crew took a fully equipped SA UTTAS with full fuel picked up the Gamma Goat, flew it around and landed it without an issue. As did the Boeing UTTAS, EXCEPTwe learned later, from an Army pilot flying that day, that the Boeing UTTAS had only 400 lbs of fuel, had removed all the cabin interior and seats and all but a single UHF comm radio. Full fuel on UTTAS was about 2400 lbs as I recall. You can do the math.

[JohnDixson]

JimEli a further comment re that tab mentioned in Post #15. After being bothered about a dim memory, I sent a note to a very good friend with what seems like a photographic memory, and this is his reply to my query:

” You jumped in an SH-60B with me one day and said "what it that bracket doing here; it was only for flight test instrumentation!"
We told Alan Walding, who decided it would cost more to take it out than leave it in. But it had been removed from UH-60! “

So, Jim, your recollection is confirmed.

Best,
John

[Blackhawk9]

JimEli,
The C-130/C-141 carriage requirement for UTTAS nearly killed the UH-60 due to the low rotor head causing extensive vibration and drag issues (not to mention concerns over disc/cockpit interaction…) - only solved by the clever introduction of a removable rotor mast extender. It would be interesting to know how often the -60 has been shipped by -130….

When I was on Australian Black Hawks, 101 and 201 were delivered from the US in C-130's, one aircraft went back and fwd to the US for EMI testing in a C-130, also about half a dozen times between 1988 and 1995 (when I left B/Hawks) U/S Black Hawks were flown home in C-130's from across the country or from PNG, I have prepped for transport or assembled post transport S-70's for C-130 transport about 4-5 times. Since I left them I know of at least 6-8 times I have heard of over the years they have gone into C-130's , C-130 transport stopped once we got C-17's

[The Sultan]

Heli

Sikorsky leaning auto “correct” coupled with far sightedness.

[JohnDixson]

Thanks, BH9-had not heard about Australia actually using the 130 transport kit.

I realized that I didn’t finish the raised rotor/performance story. The actual UTTAS forward flight spec data point requirement was: At Design Gross Weight and at 4000’/95F, the cruise speed requirement was 145 KTAS. In order to make that point, we did a long list of aerodynamic cleanup on the fuselage, added rotor diameter thru extended main blade tip caps, and utilized the stabilator to optimize fuselage trim attitude ( in fact that was a secondary but significant factor in the decision to add the FBW stabilator ). Note of interest re the stabilator technology: a few years later, I was at Ft Rucker and had a chance to look at a new production AH-64. Walking around their stabilator I noticed a familiar appearance in the stabilator actuator, and got down to look at the part number. it began with 70-xxxx etc-. UH-60 part numbers all start with 70-xxx etc.

[IFMU]

It began with 70-xxxx etc-.
As you know John, the stabilator was my dad's baby. He never forgave the Army for taking the stabilator and putting it on a competitor's helicopter. That aside it is a validation of the whole scheme.

[Lonewolf_50]

Self-deployment is always an option. Always? Hardly, that depends on what design choices are made. If AAR kit is folded into the design, then yeah, it begins to become part of the art of the possible.
Historical note: Sherman Tank dimensions were influenced by deployability: they had to fit into certain ships to get across the ocean.
I well recall Blackhawks going up to Newberg to get delivered, (but not by C-130, it was C-5 or C-17 ...)
Comment in re v-280 self deployability: that's been included in some of the Bell literature, but that's (so far as I can tell) salesmanship at this point rather than demonstrated capability.
We'll see how the folks at Bell apply their V-22 lessons learned on that.

I'll need to research that RFP you cited to see what I can squeeze out of it. Get back to you in a few days.

[Al M]

I was told that the Army was given the dimensions of the C-130 cabin and they passed that on to those who chose to compete on the UTTAS competition. What was not passed on was the fact that most of the Air Forces C-130's had been outfitted with the equipment used for extraction of cargo by parachute. That raised the actual floor enough that no UTTAS aircraft would fit.

[JimEli]

Always? Hardly, that depends on what design choices are made. If AAR kit is folded into the design, then yeah, it begins to become part of the art of the possible.
...


Who said anything about AAR?

[JohnDixson]

Indeed, IFMU, your dad made the first flight and the initial envelope expansion tests associated with the stabilator. FBW in 1975. That the stabilator programming came together so quickly is a result of his work. Can’t blame him for being upset to see his work transferred to other OEM’s without so much as a thank you. Wasn’t just the stabilator. The CH-54 load stabilization and precision ( remote controlled ) over system designed and flight tested out of his Engr Branch was similarly passed to Boeing and resided in their HLH proposal.

[Al M]

Also the blade balancing system.

[westhawk]

Also the blade balancing system.

You mean the large area washers added when doing main rotor balancing with the Chadwick-Helmuth kit? That was always fun. Read the phase angle and IPS on the box, then refer to the chart in the manual to see how many washers to add to which location(s). It worked fine on our 1981 UH-60As. Just make sure you have the cable that connects the accelerometer up top to the test box in the cabin firmly secured, as any slack will sound just like you're taking small-arms hits and may skew the vib readings. Ah, good times!

On the subject of air transportability:

In around 1987, our Germany-based US Army combat aviation unit was instructed to prepare 2 of our Blackhawks for air transportability as part of a training exercise. One was to be loaded on a C-5 and one on the C-141. We actually sent one of our birds over to Rhein-Main or Ramstein (can't remember which) to visit with a C-5 crew and see how well the loading and unloading went. The guys who went along to do the prep work didn't break anything so I guess it went okay. I remember from school that you had to use a hydraulic mule to extend and retract the shock struts to avoid scraping the belly during ramp loading. Thankfully we never actually had to demonstrate it on the C-141. To fit in the 141, the rotor head had to be partially disassembled and lowered. Lots of work, especially putting it all back together with the brass split rings and pressure plate torquing. I was assigned to the crew that got to do all that in the comfort of our own hangar. And the post-mx test flight as well. If you fixed it, you flew with it! Tech inspectors too.

[Lonewolf_50]

Who said anything about AAR?
The US military has to deploy to do most of what it does. That is why I raised that point in response to this thread's OP.
Function.
Given the various responses to my post, to include yours, some of which pointed to "self deployability" as an answer, AAR, like the V-22 has, is a way to get around the problem of "does it fit into air transport to get sent to yet another godforsaken corner of the globe"

[Al M]

Westhawk.

No. I am talking about the blade balancing used at the factory on a whirl test stand using (at one time) the Chicago Aerial tracker prior to the blades being installed on an aircraft or delivered as a spare or an overhaul. This balancing includes adjusting the bade pitching moment(push rod load), track, and obtaining the pretrack number so the aircraft rotating push rods can be set to the correct length..