Flightdeck cams

[A0283]

190220
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47303077
Quote ...Google acknowledgment comes days after Singapore Airlines faced criticism for installing cameras into the backs of some of its planes' seats as part of a new in-flight entertainment system...Singapore confirmed the cameras' existence on Sunday, but said they had been disabled and added that it had no plans to use them... End of Quote...

Just thinking...

Interesting to find out how long it takes to install these on the flight deck. Would be the birth of skyskyping !-) and skymonitoring (fatigue,..). If 2-way is possible someone will use it at some time. No brainer to predict a big fight about privacy versus productivity and other uses.

When you could connect flightdeck ipads to the 'airplane backbone' you could of course already do this. Wonder about the robustness of them though.

Can already see some interesting discussions about robustness, backbone(s), tunneling, encryption, ...

This could develop fast if parties involved find a common ground...for either separate
or connected flight phases.

[Raffles S.A.]

The recent crash of a Convair 440 in South Africa showed that a cockpit camera can be useful in crash investigations. The crew had installed a go pro in the cockpit and another on the wing IIRC.

[bumpy737]

The recent crash of a Convair 440 in South Africa showed that a cockpit camera can be useful in crash investigations. The crew had installed a go pro in the cockpit and another on the wing IIRC.

But I don’t think that the Convair was equipped with a FDR/CVR...

[Wally777]

We discussed this issue some 25 years ago at the IFALPA Accident Analysis Conferences I use to partake in. Sadly and even more so today, the press would 'kill' for such footage and with their wonderful reputation for accurate reporting (Cynical old me), it would be the last thing any of us in the profession would like to see. Especially the relatives if the accident was a fatal one. As a tool for accident investigation though it would possibly be very useful. An example I believe in the B777 accident at KSFO, it couldn't be clearly established who was handling the thrust levers and so a camera would have quickly resolved. this.

[eppy]

The former Chairman of the NTSB, Jim Hall, made a pitch for cockpit CCTV linked to the FDR or CVR back in 2015, but nothing has become of it yet.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/05/21/airline-camera-cockpit-ntsb-column/27736967/

[skadi]

Already common practice in the helicopter World

Vision 1000 cockpit camera (https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-02-25/airbus-helicopters-make-cockpit-image-recorder-standard)

skadi

[aterpster]

The former president of the NTSB, Jim Hall, made a pitch for cockpit CCTV linked to the FDR or CVR back in 2015, but nothing has become of it yet.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/05/21/airline-camera-cockpit-ntsb-column/27736967/

He was also one of the worst, if not the worst, NTSB chairman since its inception. He is now practicing aviation law in Chicago and was in 2015.

[aterpster]

We discussed this issue some 25 years ago at the IFALPA Accident Analysis Conferences I use to partake in. Sadly and even more so today, the press would 'kill' for such footage and with their wonderful reputation for accurate reporting (Cynical old me), it would be the last thing any of us in the profession would like to see. Especially the relatives if the accident was a fatal one. As a tool for accident investigation though it would possibly be very useful. An example I believe in the B777 accident at KSFO, it couldn't be clearly established who was handling the thrust levers and so a camera would have quickly resolved. this.
The "press would kill for" would significantly outweigh any probative value.

[aterpster]

Already common practice in the helicopter World

Vision 1000 cockpit camera (https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-02-25/airbus-helicopters-make-cockpit-image-recorder-standard)

skadi
An entirely different world than Part 121 operations. Helicopter tour operators use the cameras to make money. And, the passengers are seated on the "flight deck" with the PIC.

[skadi]

Helicopter tour operators use the cameras to make money.
Definitely not with the mentioned Vision1000 System! For example it's used in many HEMS fleets....

skadi

[aterpster]

Definitely not with the mentioned Vision1000 System! For example it's used in many HEMS fleets....

skadi
My guess is they don't have a union.

[safetypee]

Why would anyone require a union for this matter if there was an open and honest desire to improve safety.

World opinion might not be so entrenched as the US who appear to release information on a whim; irrespective of ICAO recommendations.
Video clearly would be aid an understanding of the situation; there is no need to publish the data publically at all. Not every investigation authority releases the CVR verbatim.

[aterpster]

Why would anyone require a union for this matter if there was an open and honest desire to improve safety.
The view of the three major pilot unions in the U.S. was that is was more of an invasion of privacy than an enhancement to safety.

I have long since stopped having a dog in that fight, so I'm not the right person with whom to debate the merits, or lack thereof. I'd suggest a letter to the chair of the NTSB. The present chairman is smart, intellectually honest, and a retired U.S. Air captain.

[CargoOne]

The view of the three major pilot unions in the U.S. was that is was more of an invasion of privacy than an enhancement to safety.


What's about train and bus drivers who have cameras for years now? Police officers, firefighters? Let alone most of production facilities having it for decades. What makes pilots so special - is it a much higher salary make pilots believe they shallt be excluded?

[OK4Wire]

Police officers and firefighters do not have the entirety of their shift recorded, ie what goes on in the car or crew room for example while they're having some lunch or a drink.

If a camera was on for the takeoff and landing only, perhaps I could live with that, but not the intervening 13 hours in the cruise, thank you.

[Rated De]

Whatever the imagined benefits of this technology there is one absolute and undeniable reality: Humanity will always find a way to use it for nefarious purposes.
One only look at the purported benefits of Farcebook and compare it to the myriad of privacy and data mining issues they quietly levered behind their curtain.

Airline management, have struggled to lever pilots under the Corporate envelope of HR drivel. Pilots are licensed and thus accountable to, a legislative and regulatory environment, that HR has little to no control of.
Imagine the fun to be had when not only actions but visions exist that HR managers could pour over, looking for breaches of Corporate policy, non- politically correct conversations, comments and 'failures to adhere to (insert policy)...'?

An Orwellian nightmare..

[skadi]

Conversations are also recorded on CVR. So the camera should not be the problem, more who has the right to read out the recordings and for what reason it's done.

skadi

[ACMS]

In a word.....

NO.

[hazohag]

I went from aviation to maritime some years ago now - some of the high speed ferries I drive are required to have a camera in the wheelhouse/bridge.
In fact, even some of the smaller slower boats I was driving had them on me (as pax would board in that area, so for security).

I just don't see the issue - if you're doing your job properly, it shouldn't matter. It gets recorded to a DVR and wiped after a certain amount of time - so its not like they're watched for the fun of it... They would only ever access them if there was a major incident (not that I have had any). On the few occasions I've heard about - the camera actually vindicated the skipper for doing the right thing.

[CargoOne]

Police officers and firefighters do not have the entirety of their shift recorded, ie what goes on in the car or crew room for example while they're having some lunch or a drink.

If a camera was on for the takeoff and landing only, perhaps I could live with that, but not the intervening 13 hours in the cruise, thank you.

Cannot comment of firefighters but police patrol cars internal cam is recording all the time incl lunch or drink which they more often than not taking inside the car, same with bus and trains. And, let me bring it - those records are not deleted like CVR after the flight, it is archived and kept in full for extended period of time for the benefit of potential inquires and investigations. I think pilots need to become more realistic and stop considering themselves any special breed.

[Capn Bloggs]

I think pilots need to become more realistic and stop considering themselves any special breed.
Considering the number of blunts that can't do a pilot's job, yes, we are a special breed. Keep out!

[skadi]

I think, the same discussions surfaced when cvr/fdr became mandatory long ago....

skadi

[funfly]

I remember a cockpit view available on the seat screen when flying as a passenger in the Gulf many years ago. I heard it was discontinued after passengers watched themselves head for the ground. That was in the 1980’s.

[aterpster]

I remember a cockpit view available on the seat screen when flying as a passenger in the Gulf many years ago. I heard it was discontinued after passengers watched themselves head for the ground. That was in the 1980’s.

May 25, 1979. I was placed on a ground hold at KICT when it happened. We arrived 3 hours later. Landed on 9L, rolled through 4R. The engine that fell off was still on the runway.

[Sailvi767]

Cannot comment of firefighters but police patrol cars internal cam is recording all the time incl lunch or drink which they more often than not taking inside the car, same with bus and trains. And, let me bring it - those records are not deleted like CVR after the flight, it is archived and kept in full for extended period of time for the benefit of potential inquires and investigations. I think pilots need to become more realistic and stop considering themselves any special breed.

Most police cams I am aware of start recording only if the officer turns it on or the siren or emergency lights are activated.

[Ian W]

Cameras live streaming from a cockpit together with live streaming CVR/DFDR will probably appear when the 'optional pilots' are automated out of their jobs. Regulatory issues are more difficult than the technical issues.

Unmanned F-16

[WestAirAviation]

I drive trains for a railroad in New York.

We just started putting camera's in all the cars starting last year. They record 24/7 whether you're sitting in a yard facility sleeping or operating down main track at 80mph. They've already begun using the camera's to write people up for the most asinine, egregious nonsense, even on people who aren't on duty! I used to believe the Railroad Unions (we have teamsters) were the most powerful unions in the World, but they haven't said a word. Why do I even pay union dues?

I'm tempted to flight instruct up to my ATP and then apply for Ameriflight or something. The pay cut might be worth it, as long as the pilot unions never follow the railroad down this path.

[MFC_Fly]

I can't see a problem if the camera feed goes ONLY to an ADR type black box, that is only accessed in the event of an accident. You don't hear many pilots moaning about the CVR, so what is the problem with a CVidR?

[Derfred]

FDR’s and CVR’s were originally developed to speak when the pilots were no longer alive to speak.

I believe they are used for more than that these days... I think that’s what we refer to as “mission creep”.

A little bit like internet metadata monitoring, which in my country was introduced to capture terrorists and paedophiles. Most recently it was reported that a local government was using it to capture and fine owners of unregistered pets.

Out of interest, does anyone have any links to current regulations around the world where the CVR may be accessed when the pilots are still available to tell the story?

When the offices of our CEO’s and politicians have CVR’s, maybe I’ll agree to this.

[Airbubba]

Out of interest, does anyone have any links to current regulations around the world where the CVR may be accessed when the pilots are still available to tell the story?

For the U.S. here are some links to federal law concerning CVR contents and transcripts:

49 U.S. Code § 1114. Disclosure, availability, and use of information

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/1114 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/1114)

49 CFR § 831.11 - Parties to the investigation.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/831.11 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/831.11)

49 CFR § 831.13(b)–Flow and dissemination of accident or incident information

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/831.13 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/831.13)

49 U.S. Code § 1154. Discovery and use of cockpit and surface vehicle recordings and transcripts

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/1154 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/1154)

I have commented here in recent years about what I perceive to be a trend to harvest more of what would formerly be labeled 'non-pertinent conversation' in CVR transcripts.

[Ian W]

FDR’s and CVR’s were originally developed to speak when the pilots were no longer alive to speak.

I believe they are used for more than that these days... I think that’s what we refer to as “mission creep”.

A little bit like internet metadata monitoring, which in my country was introduced to capture terrorists and paedophiles. Most recently it was reported that a local government was using it to capture and fine owners of unregistered pets.

Out of interest, does anyone have any links to current regulations around the world where the CVR may be accessed when the pilots are still available to tell the story?

When the offices of our CEO’s and politicians have CVR’s, maybe I’ll agree to this.

If it is available someone in management will use it. It would be better to live stream CVR, CVidR and DFDR information to an escrow database that has a legal requirement to only release the information in the case of an accident/incident to the NTSB or equivalent. As it is there are cases of FOQA being used to chase pilots. A formal escrow system would provide for immediate access by government investigatory bodies but not for a bean-counter or manager at Fly-by-Nite airlines who wants to chase the crews.

[physicus]

It's impossible to reliably live stream an HD video stream via satellite from a platform that might be undergoing severely unusual attitudes. It needs to be stored locally, as close to the camera as possible, onto a sealed recorder. It's not that hard to do, nor is it hard to enforce that nobody opens the damn thing unless examining an incident or accident.

[WestAirAviation]

With my railroad the company told the Union to tell us that the camera's would not be examined unless an accident occurred. We were told the company did not have access to the cameras and that they would have to go to a 3rd party to gain access to footage.

It took four months for the first "random download" to occur. A year in and they pull hundreds of hours of footage a week, writing people up for having their phone off and in their pocket instead of off and in their bag (per FRA regs) and they issuing warnings for people who are seen out the front window camera walking across yard tracks instead of using the crosswalk.

I could only imagine the colorful conversations they listen to when we have a three hour swing, and are just bullshitting in the passenger cabin.

I urge any ALPA rep on these boards to fight camera's with every fiber of your being. Do not believe your company when they claim altruism.

[aterpster]

FDR’s and CVR’s were originally developed to speak when the pilots were no longer alive to speak.

I believe they are used for more than that these days... I think that’s what we refer to as “mission creep”.


You've got that right!